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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Another thought, some of today's generation would never be caught dead in a vehicle that "dad or grandpa" had. They have to have something new and different, regardless"
The Taurus/Sable are good vehicles.. Take a look around the net, msn reliability data for one.. and you will be surprised the reliability is as good as a Camry or Accord. Refinement is what people balk at. And the 500/Montego are also very reliable.. visit other chats around the net. :shades:
I know this is not scientific as I am only a sample of one, but... My last Ford, a 2004 model, had transmission, driveline, and accessory problems since brand new. Within 15k miles it had quickly developed braking and more driveline problems. Although the car was actually settling down after the warranty expired, some of the issues remained and my confidence was shaken from the 9 visits to the shop I had endured thus far. I traded it in at 46k, for a new Honda Accord.
What makes it statistically significant is that if you look at the "Problems and Solutions" board or in CR, the same issues appear to be very common... Yet the worst part about my experience was, half the time the dealer wouldn't even acknowledge a problem existed, even though I had seen TSBs that had been issued over a year prior. I don't think you can blame me for being a little turned off from Ford.
van
Brother you can find ANYTHING you want on the "net", including people that will agree with you that yes means no.
My Taurus was a joke. I gave Ford a chance and they soured me for many, many years to their products. Why buy another Ford when there's Honda out there? C'mon. Ford's crumbling.
Feel free to visit the Automotive News & Views board for more general discussion of the manufacturers. That's the right place.
How about Prelude? Or Vigor? Or Legend? Or Integra? Or Tercel? Or Corona? Or Celica? I think all of those names are available. I think Legend is a classy name--maybe Ford will buy that one from Honda.
I had a Ford Taurus and kept it for well over the 100k mark with no problems whatsoever. No sqeaks or rattles and still ran fantastic. Taurus's of late just aren't on par with their competition.
-Loren
-Loren
Must be the same platform.
That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.
although many components are the same, there are several significant differences that make the 6 and the fusion distinctly different cars. the first and probably most important is the suspension. the fusion has a softer suspension which makes the car lean more in corners. although it is still pretty responsive compared to other cars in this class, it is not as quick on turn in, nor as composed mid-corner as a mazda 6.
another difference is the seats; the 6's buckets are more supportive and hold the driver in place better than the fusion. and of course, one of the main advantages of the mazda 6 is the addition of hatchback or wagon choices for those that desire flexible cargo capability. the fusion does not share this versatility.
clearly, the target audience for both cars are different which explains the difference in styling and execution. the fact that the 6's platform is used so frequently in mazda's and ford's lineup is a compliment to the quality of this chassis. even with a sportier suspension compared to other cars in this class, the 6's ride is not harsh and does not clunk clumsily after hitting a large pothole. but the fusion is a solid car because it has many of the positive aspects of the 6 like great breaking, good handling, and quick steering, but it softens up the ride to make it more acceptable to families who may not want the edginess and sharpness of the mazda 6.
This doesn't mean that GM and Ford, and German owned Chrysler do not have some good product to offer. Just saying there is a reason people are buying Japan makes. The new Aura is an example of GM coming up with something to compete. And then there are cars like the Chrysler 300 and CTS which are uniquely American.
-Loren
My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE. What prompted them to finally try a Japanese car? Well, two primary reasons.
First, reliability/durability. From their past experiences, they said they could keep their American cars on the road until about 100,000 miles, and their trucks until about 80,000 miles, without spending too much money on repairs or risking breakdowns. After that, the repair bills really started to add up (they kept having fuel pump, wheel bearing, and misc. accessory problems with the Impala even before 80k, and at the same time had to replace the motor in their other American vehicle, a 1998 F-150 with 75k miles). They wanted to see if a Japanese car would hold up better.
The other reason? Resale value. They looked at projected resale values for the American sedans versus the Japanese sedans that they were considering, and realized just how many thousands of dollars extra they could get back in 6 to 8 years on a Japanese car versus the American cars.
In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.
It is interesting that people ascribe much higher reliability to all Japanese makes, when it really is mostly just Toyota and Honda that are significantly more reliable (according to CR data, anyway). Looking at a chart from April 2006 issue they show average Toyota at about 30 "problems" per vehicle, Honda at 40, Nissan at just below 60, Buick is virtually tied with Nissan at just above 60, Ford is at about 70.
There is about the same difference between Buick and Pontiac (which approaches 100) as there is between Toyota and Buick. Yet if someone said "I've had Pontiacs in the past but I am going to buy a Buick because they are so much more reliable than Pontiac", I think most would think they were nuts.
Per CR data, there is a smaller difference between Nissan and Ford than there is between Nissan and Toyota. Yet people are far more likely to say I will buy Nissan over Ford for greater reliability than they are to say I will buy Toyota over Nissan for greater reliability.
Similarly there is as much difference between Ford and Chevy as between Ford and Nissan. But when is the last time someone bought Ford instead of Chevy because of greater reliability?
Words of wisdom!
Compare that to the legacy Honda has set for mileage...
http://www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php?intStart=25
A well built car except for early model bugs should with good maintenance easily last 100k miles without mechanical/engine problems, and I don't see why they can't easily go 300-500k miles in the hands of a good owner.
But you simply cannot get that sort of reliability consistently from "American" cars... my Taurus had to go before it even touched 100k because I knew expensive repairs were around the corner (probably would have costs as much or more than the car was worth in trade-in value). There are some high mileage Taures I've read about but they tend to have had major work done to keep them on the roads - rebuilt engine, transmission swap, etc. The junkyard is a high mileage domestic owner's best resource!
One neighbor has a Chevy S10 that past 50k was already having problems and he says he'll never buy another "American" truck again. The only abuse its ever taken was hauling a load of firewood, and the transmission was never the same after. He also owns an older Chevy Blazer... but after the S10, he's done.
The Accord sells because they get repeat buyers - people keep coming back for another one after having great experiences with older ones. It says a lot more about reliability and true customer satisfaction than surveys of new owners by JD Powers, CR, etc. 80% of Accord buyers are repeat customers!
Must be the same platform.
I agree with your assessment of the looks but this platform is larger than the C1 (Euro Focus/S40/Mazda3). Probably a bit smaller than the Fusion, think current Mazda6 size, but stretchable I would wager.
That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.
I'm not making this up guys. Read this and this.
Ford is seriously considering bringing this over to our shores along with some Aussie RWD cars. I would guess they would be assembled here too.
Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.
In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.
He made the right decision, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the Titan.
Hmm. I think I see the confusion now. Those pics I posted about 15-20 posts back were of the new Ford Mondeo and not the Euro Focus. I didn't specify the model because I assumed most of you would already have seen it on Edmunds' Inside Line front page.
Am I the only one who reads their news?
If I am willing to park an "exciting" camry or Sonata in my driveway why would I be ashamed to have an Impala or 500 or Fusion or G6? Don't get that. Speaking of red dots, if you look at the detailed ratings iN CR's auto issue you will see mostly red dots and half red dots on domestic vehicles. For some reason in CR a car can have mostly good ratings on components but end up with an average or below average overall ratings. Check it out for youself. Most of those "unreliable" domestics you are speaking of arent even unreliable per CR's tables in the new car issue.
Excellent point IMO. I mentioned a while back that the Taurus, if marketed right by Ford, could steal higher trim level CamCord sales due to it's similar price points. The Taurus (old Five Hundred) will probably be a better overall value than the Camry or Accord V6 at certain price points and it's up to Ford to get that word out. Actually telling people that it's a Volvo for about 2/3 the money wouldn't hurt either.
I would be inclined to believe most modern cars can run 100K miles without major problems, not just Toyotas and Honda. The year of the cars in question is very significant when talking about reliability. People will reference domestic cars from 1985 or 1990 as if it was yesterday. I know time flies, but that is a LONG time ago. The point is CR, JD powers and other sources show that the problems per vehicle for domestic makes is VERY close to that of import makes in many cases and clearly superior to European cars.
My parents Olds is almost 9 years old with nearly 91K miles and has no tranny or engine work done, it hasnt even had a tune up yet. Give me a break. Lets at least try to focus on horror stories from the last decade or so. I dont think there is any disagreement that 15+ years ago there was a significant difference in quality, but things have changed a lot. Interestingly enough Automobile mag has a long term wrap up of a Ridgeline in the current issue and it had about five unscheduled stops for warranty work. Am I the only one who sees this stuff?
Rocky
You'll find that people who are loyal to imports will typically say problems like the ones you describe are the exception and not the rule. Sometimes people will trade in a trouble prone import for another vehicle from the SAME brand. Could you imagine anyone doing that with a domestic? I have noticed Toyota hasnt put that 6 speed auto in the RAv4, Highlander or Highlander and I'm wondering if that is related to the problems they are having.
GM had the right idea and I think Mulally would be a fool not to follow their lead. Start over with the Euro and Aussie models because they can compete with anything out there right now and going forward. What they have now isn't cutting it, not 100% anyway. Time will tell and I am confident that they will again be 100% competitive in time.
Recent surveys have shown that GM led the industry in customer retention and Toyota was second. Not saying that specific import models dont have extremely loyal customer bases but the fact of the matter is GM does very well with retaining customers which makes it highly unlikely that a significant # of GM owners have major problems with their vehicles. I would suspect that a greater % of GM owners have had less than reliable vehicles than Toyota owners in recent years, but the overwhelming majority of GM products are reliable.
Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.
In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.
He made the right decision, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the Titan. "
I must confess, while I was happy to hear that they were considering Japanese makes, I was a little worried that they were only strongly considering the Altima. I know that Altimas in the past were extremely reliable, but I too have heard that quality is slipping somewhat. However, it should give them much better reliability than they had with their 2000 Impala and the 1998 F-150. I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that he had to replace the engine in that thing after only 75k; he doesn't drive hard, his commute provides ideal driving conditions, never towed, no off-road use, etc...
Nissan has had some issues as of late, but no engines at 75k that I have heard of.
Whatever the reliability turns out to be, they'll certainly be in a much better position come trade-in time.
One of my criteria in choosing a midsize sedan was I wanted a 5 speed automatic with a 4 cylinder engine. I was looking at cars that could be bought for maximum of maybe $20,000. IIRC, the choices were Fusion, Milan, Mazda6, Accord, Camry
Which has absolutely nothing in common with a 2007 Fusion.
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/general-motors-takes-first-and-last-place- -in-new-j-d-powers-customer-retention-study/371/
Truck sales and general customer loyalty sure, but nowhere near the 80% mark of the Accord.
Perception will keep buyers away from a good car after a bad experience... Ford will take years to do its damage control. And the Fusion has no track record to back itself up either... unlike the Accord which is in its 31st year of sales!
Check back with me in 30 years and I'll give the Fusion some consideration if there's been good reports.