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True, but increasing their share in VW from 5 to 20 percent is hardly going to ruin Porsche' reputation or their product line, or break them. It really isn't that serious.
M
Exactly!
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Anyway, the Phaeton did not disappoint in any way. It was solid and sumptuous... and cheaper than the Audi after negotiations by thousands. BUT..
For me the Audi was a more comfortable car. It seemed to fit me better. The test drive was an A8L, so it was apples to apples with the Phaeton, and the Audi seemed a lot more nimble and responsive. Now the VW as no slouch! It drove as a marvolous luxury sedan, but the Audi had an almost sports feel to it when pushed that was not noticeable in the VW. Admittedly, this is not necessarily a feature one might want in a car of this class, but I do.
Therefore I signed the papers yesterday for an A8 (NWB).
Now just a three month wait for the build....
The A8 - also a 2004, had an awkward shift from 1st to 2nd and sometimes a lag whilst starting from rest. As to sportiness, the Phaeton NEEDS 19 inch wheels and 275 40 19 tires to match the Audi. Stock 255 45 18 on the Phaeton are tiny.
Eric
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Now why would Porsche want a stake in VW? They have a strong interest that VW is run in the future by Germans. Very simple. They wouldn't want VW being owned by let's say Toyota. But that would just be a small evil and unlikely. Imagine how they would feel if a financial investor would get control? And above that one that is not as nice as Deutsche Bank, who let them basically do whatever they wanted. Also, let's not forget that Dr. Piech (their previous CEO) was married to a Porsche daughter. Once VW is doing well financially again, they might as well pull out their money again and make a nice return. I am not sure that will happen.
This is also maily the reason that DCX wants to buy a 20% share in VW: protection! A strong VW is better than a strong Toyota, right?
The Phaeton is on par, if not better than the 7 series, S Class, or A8. Especially when you consider how it leases out. It really is deal of a lifetime when you compare it to the vehicles that will have the same lease payment.
What can you lease from Audi, Benz, or BMW for $700-$750 per month?
From Audi you are going to be into an A6 3.2 loaded for $675- $700. The A6 4.2 is going to be lots higher if you can find one. The A8L is going to lease in the $1000+ per month
From Benz, you are going to be in an E320 if you are lucky. Not sure what the payments are going to be, but I do know this. They sell all vehicles at close to full MSRP, and their money factors are always in the .0025 to .0030 range.
In a BMW, almost same as Benz. I went a test drove a new 3 series and I got a price of $561 + tax per month. This was for a 325i sedan with an MSRP of $35,640. 36 months / 12k miles. Where on earth are you going to be with a 530i? Not to mention $1100-$1200 for a 7 series.
In brief: 450hp V10 from the Lamborghini Gallardo with FSI direct-injection, about 100K.
M
Would love to drive the new V10 in this car!
Otherwise, the car is simply beautiful.
The front end is admittedly similar to the Roll Royce, Bentley and the Chrysler 300, but it is refreshing in a sea of bland front ends.
Well there a few cars I can't imagine why anyone would buy them so to each his own I guess.
M
Except those other cars all carry over the height of the grille to the sides of the car as well. That's why it works for these other cars-- but to me it just sticks out like a sore thumb on the A8. The rest of the car is basically a relatively low and sleek design with all visual cues horizontal, and then out of nowhere comes this exaggerated vertical grille. All IMHO, of course.
i would think that Audi has reserved room for future HP gains
with this engine. it would be nice to see the price stay beneath
100k. i could see paying an additional 10k to 15k for the upgraded
engine but not 40k.
on a separate note....lexus has overnighted their own special
kool aid to all of their faithful followers. the new LS is more attractive
than the current model....as if that were any challenge to surpass. :confuse:
to my eyes it looks just like the GS but larger. my guess is the new LS will age
prematurely because there is nothing distinctive about its appearance.
price point and the reliability factor will bolster it's sales. the faithful will
remark how beautiful it is but in the end it is still a conservatively designed
automobile. a design that will be very quickly forgotten as soon as the next
generation is released. now that lexus will be offering more than one powertrain
and wheel base maybe the kool aid guzzlers will realize just how inadequate
and simple the lexus line up has been since it's inception.....but most likely probably not!
people can say what they will about Bangle and BMW but the 5
series seems to be aging nicely. i hated the look when they
first came out but now i would prefer a 5 over every other car in
it's class. the new S seems to be designed much in the same
way. a lot to take in at first..... but my guess is it will become more interesting
and attractive as time passes.
one last thought.....why is it that the kool aid drinkers of the lexus fan
club want/need lexus to surpass all other automakers? what is it about this
group of people that they feel so personally attached to lexus and
any successs lexus has in the market place? they remind me of the
football fans that paint their faces or wear goofy outrageous outfits to
football games. this success by identification is just down right scary!
club want/need lexus to surpass all other automakers? what is it about this
group of people that they feel so personally attached to lexus and
any successs lexus has in the market place?
Well I won't take that too personally because I like to think that I'm one of the more balanced Lexus fans. But you do realize that some of the folk that frequent this particular board can be accused of the same sort of thing, but with a particular German brand?
I have been a diehard Audi fan since I leased my A6 2.7T in 2000 (I now own an S4 Cabriolet). I can be pretty sure that the S8 will not be that pricey in American dollars. Generally, it would be about $20K less than the new AMG S-Class. I'm going to say $95,000 in AMERICAN dollars. The A8L is $70K, anyway, and this has 115 more hp, and more standard features.
1. Of course, the Audi badge. For only $2,000 more and you're getting a car that's just as good as the Phaeton, why not?
2. ASF (Audi Space Frame)- it makes the A8 about 800 lbs. lighter, making it easily quicker but just as plush.
3. quattro- Although the Phaeton has an AWD system, Volkswagen's system is not as advanced as Audi's. Audi would never sell them their monumental rights! But, Volkswagen has the last-generation Haldex AWD system, while quattro has Torsen. And, there's the name- everyone trusts quattro.
4. Styling- although this is different for most people, and the Phaeton is a very handsome car, most people regard the A8 as better looking. I think it looks much lower to the ground than the VW, making it look more dynamic.
5. Interior- Volkswagen does not have much experience in the luxury business, so I'll give them props for a first time well done. It does, however, seem too cluttered. The A8's design flows much better on the inside. Audi uses more exotic wood trim, better NAV systems, and Alcantara inserts.
Okay, again, props to Volkswagen for trying. They should make a full-size Skoda.
I suspect that the real difference in AWD systems that can be felt by the driver is the % of traction directed to each axle. The VW Toureg is roughly 50/50 front vs. rear axle. The Porsche Cayenne which shares the same AWD system as the T-Reg is much more oriented toward the rear. For this and other reasons I bought the Cay. What is the percentage break down on the Phaeton vs. the A8?
M
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The fender flares on the new S class are understated to the point of near invisibility when compared to the S8 front end.
All nice pics imo, even stunning. However........
these same arches are exgerrated in these.....
Not to bad here.
I've just gotta see this car in person because so far the wheel arches in the rear is the only thing I see questionable. The arches seem to have been styled for the AMG sport package than the regular spec car. :confuse:
M
i agree, the car seems to have been designed with the AMG model/sport package
in mind. like you i feel the rear fender bulge seems to be a little to wide to my eyes(left to right, side view, rear quarter panel). overall though the exterior is
fresh and unique.
I think the VW looks lower to the ground in euro-spec trim. The US model is jacked 1/2 inch to allow for our roads. Tires are also "shorter" on the Phaeton by 0.70 inch giving even more fender/wheel gap.
Audi and Phaeton wood are equally outstanding, but there's tons more wood in the Phaeton all across the dash when the vent covers are down. Alcantera headliners available for Phaeton ROW, but not USA.
I hope VW continues to develop the Phaeton - a twin turbo W12 or the V10 would be nice. And, of course, better wheels/tires!
I'm upgrading my wheels and tires - to Bentley!
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I have to say I love the way this looks. Pure aggression.
M
It is an aggressive grill but IMO it is unrelated to the styling on the rest of the car.
It looks out of place, kind of like a pit bull muzzle on a golden retriever body.
RS4 is mid 70's
S6 will be 90-95K
S8 will be 110-115K
Well it happens. People have disliked the new grille design from Audi since day one. I didn't like it either until I saw it in person.
M
The M and the SLK are carrying the ball for the brand right now. Most other models are showing double digit drops for the year.
See details: link title
Oct Benz Sales
One thing is for sure Mercedes clearly exceeded the planned 8-10K sales for the CLS, at over 12K for the year so far with 2 more months left.
M