High-End European Luxury Sedans

emauss

I have an A8L on order (to be delivered before year's end) and personally the grill was a major plus for me. I think the new look sets the car apart in (IMHO) a tasteful yet definitive manner. (Oh yeah, VW has it too, and next year's Phaeton is rumored to get a similar nose).

I guess that's what makes the world go 'round.....

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merc1

(Oh yeah, VW has it too, and next year's Phaeton is rumored to get a similar nose).

No, say it isn't so. I don't get it. They give Audi a unique face and then turn around start giving something very similar to VWs. All they really did with the Audi is remove more of the center section of the grille/bumper area because Audis have had double grilles (upper/lower) for years now, but they weren't "connected" in the way they are now. Now VW does almost the same thing with the new Jetta and Passat. :confuse:

The VW Phaeton is an exercise in classic-conservative good looks and shouldn't be tampered with. It isn't going to make the car sell any better either.

M

emauss

My friend has a Phaeton (which I will be driving this weekend from NYC to Baltimore), and the looks of the 2006 Audi is a contributing reason for my purchase of the A8L over the VW. I don't think the VW should get the "chrome-ized" nose of the Passat (or is it the Jetta?), but in my opinion it certainly could use some updating. The outside is too Plain Jane....but the inside is to die for......

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scott1256

Thanks for fixing the link.

I have been thinking - probably it is not unusual for a car company to have a handful of models carrying the line.

Yes, the CLS is hot. It is the most distinctive Benz in many years. IMO.

rjlaero

+1 for the CLS. It's one of the more striking designs of the last 25 years by Mercedes, and one of the few MB products right now that I really like.

I'll have to refrain from the 07 S class until I see it in person. But from photos, it's not looking too good.

scott1256

Dealer stock is really low on the CLS: sales would probably be higher if availability was better. Even so numbers are well ahead of projections.

I hope MB will increase CLS production. It is one of my favorite sedans of the last 25-30 years.

You can send me a CLS if you want. I have a space for it in my 'favorite sedan garage' along with a Jaguar XJ Super and a Cadillac DTS.

emauss

I don't agree....Maybe it's sour grapes, but my boss has a CLS 55AMG (and Phaeton for bad weather) and I am not impressed. The level of luxury is below that of the S class, and while there is a lot more room in the rear than, say, a Lexus SC430, I think of the backseat in a similar way (okay...it's more like the BMW 650...) I do enjoy driving it, but for the 110K he paid, I think there are better choices. (Did someone say Maserati??) Then again, I bought a lowly Audi A8L :-)

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lovemyclk

You're not impressed by a 469HP CLS55? Given the "personal" design mission of this striking 4-door coupe, how and where is the luxury level beneath an S-Class? It certainly never had the intention of matching the S in interior room. Just want to know...

emauss

The car seemed closer on the inside to a loaded E-class than to an S-class. Even the closing of the doors seemed "not as nice" as the all-out luxury cars.
Another friend has an E55. The interior of that seems very comparable to the CLS55. Neither one is bad (far from it), but they are both (IMHO) inferior to the S, the Audi and VW.

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merc1

Well the CLS is a E-Class underneath, not an S-Class level vehicle. The CLS55 AMG isn't about luxury as much as it is about speed and power so comparing it to a A8/S-Class or Phaeton isn't exactly apples to apples. The Maserati Quattroporte is a gorgeous car for sure, but its tanny and ride aren't even close to the CLS from eveything I've seen. Plus the CLS55 will blow it away on anything but a twisty mountain road.

M

garyh1

The thing I don't get about the CLS is who is supposed to buy it. If you want to accommodate rear seat passengers, easier access through rear doors is fine, but once in there, wouldn't you want to give them reasonably comfortable head room? And if you don't care about putting folks in the back, why deal with the design limitations of the 4 door design, when you can pick even better looking, better proportioned 2 door models?

I guess it works for the person who really wants a 2 door sports car, but has small kids who he or she needs carry in the back.

merc1

I guess it works for the person who really wants a 2 door sports car, but has small kids who he or she needs carry in the back.

Well that could be one person that would buy a CLS, but the main draw for the CLS is the styling, interior and performance, with all that practical jazz coming second. It really isn't much different from buyers who purchase a SC430 or 911 and try to use their backseats. Which are useless compared to the CLS. Not that the 911, CLS and SC430 are competitors, just that they are similarly compromised from a practical point of view. I think the 2007 CLS550 with the 5.5L V8 (382hp) will be a relative bargain within the Mercedes lineup.

M

bdr127

It really isn't much different from buyers who purchase a SC430 or 911 and try to use their backseats.

I think the point, though, is that MB made the CLS with 4 doors.... Other cars like the SC430 and 911 you mentioned only have 2 doors, which lends to more sporty styling.

merc1

Other cars like the SC430 and 911 you mentioned only have 2 doors, which lends to more sporty styling.

Yeah in the case of the 911 sure, but not in the case of the ladybug wearing manhole covers for wheels SC430. Nothing sporty about its styling in the least to me.

M

garyh1

bdr127 got my point exactly. To try to keep this out of the neverending MB/Lexus fires that somehow merc1 couldn't resist stoking , I'm saying I'd go for a SL or CL (or even a SLK) over the CLS if I didn't care about people in the back. And if I did care about back seat comfort, I'd go for an E over the CLS.

merc1

Then you both missed the point of the CLS. It isn't about practical seating arrangements. It is about having the capability to sometimes carry people in the back like a proper sedan, but with much better styling than the average sedan.

The CLS isn't a "logic" car it is a stylish add on to the otherwise practical Mercedes sedan lineup. It is the emotional choice, not a rational one.

It is for people who want something different and a lot of people do if its sales are anything to go buy. With a car like the CLS some people will get it and other won't thats the whole appeal of such a car to some.

M

emauss

"The CLS isn't a "logic" car it is a stylish add on to the otherwise practical Mercedes sedan lineup. It is the emotional choice, not a rational one"

I think you hit the nail on the head. My friend who has the CLS55 has it as his "good weather" car. His other vehicle is a Phaeton. The combination of the two make sense (well, actually DOLLARS would be a better term, but that is not relevant to this discussion). My objections to the CLS revolve around the lack of practicality for my individual situation. Taken in combination with a "luxury only" vehicle that does not masquerade as a sports car, it works fine.

garyh1

My friend who has the CLS55 has it as his "good weather" car. His other vehicle is a Phaeton.

I was all ready to reply to merc1's post to thank him for his explanation and to say I now got it. :shades: Then I read your post and it totally confused me again. :confuse: If I had a Phaeton as my "people mover", for my second car I would still get a real coupe or roadster, not a CLS.

I guess I'll stick with merc1's explanation, and leave you to deal with your friend - he must be an interesting fellow.

emauss

To him,a 911 is just too low to the ground.

Go figure.....

merc1

I can understand what type of buyer he is. He really doesn't want a "sports car" like the 911, but a touring car like the CLS55 AMG. Lots of engine and brakes, but still rides good with power to outrun almost anything you'd encounter on the road.

Of course the Phaeton's heft, V8 (or does he have a W12?) and awd I would imagine make it unstoppable in bad weather.

That said I'd add a 911 Carrera S Cabrio or SL55 AMG to the mix. I suspect he'd like the SL55 AMG better.

M

emauss

It was very nice. I drove all the way, and the car rides GREAT. Can't wait for my Audi....shudda ordered the double pane glass!

paldi

Philly to Reston Virginia 3.5 hours - felt more relaxed in my Phaeton than in my den. Sport setting great on the cloverleafs, 35 pounds air in the tires, can't hear anything outside thanks to the dual glass and the insulation in the doors and body. The car flys!

Needs updaiting... Wheels, grill area redo, eliminate side chrome strip, more aggressive fenderline.

emauss

Amen to all those items.

As you know I have the A8L on order and am happy with that, but I would not have gone wrong at all with the VW. It is certainly a classy, luxurious and comfortable vehicle.

All the nay-sayers have n0ot driven the car. If they did, they would be believers.

It is in an elite class and belongs there!

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emauss

..where is the control for the seat massage on the Phaeton? The car I am driving has the upgraded leather and I found the switch for the fan in the seat...but could not find the massage feature. Is it near the lumbar knob?

(e)

paldi

The seat message control button is the square push button directly under the lumbar controller (round joystick at top left of seat control buttons). It runs for 10 minutes. To turn it off sooner, move the lumbar joystick in any direction, briefly.

BTW, the switchs for the seat fans heats the seat if you go +1, +2 or +3 and cools the seat if you go - 1,-2 or -3.

merc1

Mercedes vs pedestrian

M

scott1256

for the first time this year. It bothers me to see a brand I admire so much being managed so badly.

'German publication Automobilwoche reported BMW global sales have overtaken Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes managers ...destroyed their bullet-proof reputation for quality and prestige overnight'

http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml

kyfdx

Overnight? No.. it took them about 15 years... :surprise:

scott1256

Do image problems date that far back?

IMO Mercedes reputation was sterling in the eyes of the general public until the last 5-6 years.

merc1

IMO Mercedes reputation was sterling in the eyes of the general public until the last 5-6 years.

Well actually in the eyes of the "general public" their reputation is still sterling. Only the people who keep up with cars and visit internet mesg boards know about all this behind the scenes stuff, well them and any previous Mercedes owner that got burned. If the image was shot as much as some would like you to believe here they wouldn't be increasing in sales worldwide.

M

emauss

Thanks...it worked fine....

kyfdx

I think that is when the problems started... As I said, they didn't lose their image overnight.... it took 15 years of problems to get where they are today....

It happened gradually...

paldi

emauss

Paldi - I searched CNN.com and was unable to locate the article you "quoted". Please help.

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paldi

The CNN screen grab is a spoof off the VWVortex Phaeton Forum. Unfortunately, it is also true.

emauss

I still can't find any real reference to VW cancelling the Phaeton. One the other hand, I have found numerous relatively current articles talking of bringing the TDI into the US.

Please elaborate.....

...BTW, I drove a Phaeton last weekend from NYC to Baltimore and *loved* it.

..can't wait for my A8L to arrive!!!!!!!!

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paldi

The source for the statements is here.
Phaeton discontinued in US/Canada

merc1

I can't say I'm surprised. Though I don't want to see the car go, I think it is the right thing for VWOA to do. They fully need to concentrate on VW's more traditional cars.

M

paldi

another Bentley makes an appearance. Really just a Phaeton in disguise.

emauss

paldi

esf

One of my friends just bought one and took my wife and I for a ride, and it is the most sensational and exotic large sedan I have ever ridden in. She has black over amaretto, and it is just gorgeous, with the black piping and well-colored wood. Any time I see the car on the street, I just smile. This is a lead-footed woman, maybe even as much as me, and she really pushes the car. She had hers with a $100K+ sticker, in fact $100,000 plus 20% of $100,000.

EF

merc1

I had to go back and see what you were replying too. Ahh...Maserati Quattroporte. A fine car indeed. We should see a V12 version sometime next year. What I like most about Masers is that there are so many leather/wood combinations to choose from. You specify the colors of the dash top, seatbelts and just about anything else you can think of. It has characters and uniqueness all over the Germans.

M

xkss

The one above must not be one of them...

news

blckislandguy

Merci, I've always thought that the Maser would be a far more bespoke option for someone in the S Class market. Apparently though according to the road tests (one of the Brit mags-Car?- compared it with the XJ on a long drive through Italy) it doesn't have much torque below say 4000 rpm. Unfortunately, thats where we Americans drive, slogging it home at 7:00 PM at night in traffic. Because of that it might not be a good alternative to an S Class unless it was going to be strictly for use up in Litchfield County on weekends.

Any comments?

merc1

I'd say you're right, very few if any S-Class/7-Series/A8 buyers are going to buy a Quattroporte as a direct replacement IMO. The car's ride and tranny are nothing like those cars according to everyone who has driven it. The Quattroporte is more of a 4-door Ferrari.

Now reportedly they're working on a regular automatic version and a V12 version also with a regular 6-speed automatic. Adding a regular automatic should open up the car to a wider group of buyers. They've already worked on the ride for 2006 and they've added both a sportier version and a more luxury biased version too, but that SMG style tranny will never equal the smoothness of a regular automatic. Too bad the partnership with Audi fell apart because Audi's DSG box would be perfect for a car like the Quattroporte.

For the past two Chicago Autoshows I got a special invite from Maserati to see the cars from the good side of the barriers. They are special cars for sure. Very unique and they really do make Mercedes and BMWs feel like "mass made" cars when it comes to interior treatments and the endless combinations of leathers/woods you can specify.

M

blckislandguy

You know, it puzzles me that people would pop for an S Class and look like every other prosperous burgher in their villiage when for roughly the same money they could get something bespoke. Maybe the Maser we are discussing or even a used Arnage. I guess the answer is that once you get beyond the S/7/8s that the alternatives just don't look utilitarian enough for a working rich guy to drive to work in.

merc1

Well the Maser is an emotional choice not a logical one like an S-Class or 7-Series is for a Euro luxury buyer. The ride and tranny on the Maser along with very limited dealer presence and just whole "unknown" factor will keep S/7/A8 buyers away from a car like the Quattroporte.

A Bentley on the other hand is just that, not utilitarian enough. Too much car to drive to the office for the working rich. Bentleys are for the rich leisure crowd.

It would be interesting to ask the Maser owners in the Quattroporte thread what other cars they have or what they traded for their Quattroporte.

M

emauss

A friend of mine owns a high-end previously owned dealership (100K-plus plus plus), and his wife told she *hated* the Maser because of its every hard shift from 1 - 2. She has driven most of the non-clutch cars that he has taken home, and this not one of her favorites. (He,on the otherhand, liked it a bunch!). She much prefers the Aston Martins he brings home.

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merc1

Yeah I think we're going to see a new 6-speed automatic sometime in 2006 for the Quattroporte, and of course that V12 version.

M