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Owen, the diesel boxer train of thought probably goes back to one of Bob's blogs which start us talking about the engine configuration. I can't imagine a non-boxer ever working in a Subaru, but on the other hand that is just a partially educated speculative guess (a SWAG in other words).
John
Linky
I know I have read a more in depth article, I just have to find it...
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
The info I read was actually a from a Subaru press release, I believe. There's quite an extensive thread over on 'Nasty-oc' about Subaru's diesel plans. Check the News and Rumors forum. It sounds like they're shooting for a 2008 release in Europe, but have no confirmed plans for a North American debut. So it's not vaporware, there's actually prototypes running around, apparently they're trying to iron out manufacturing processes. Hopefully we'll see turbo boxer diesels in North America within a few years. Can you spell 'torque'? I'm definitely intrigued.
Regards,
Owen
-juice
Diesel is a better overall short term solution.
Not sure of the difficulty in recycling the batteries from dead hybrids or their long-term maintenance issues. But you make a good point that both diesels and hybrids cost more than a regular gasoline engine car.
One good aspect of plug-in hybrids is that they can get a lot of their energy from coal-fired power plants, thereby reducing our dependence on foreign oil, and they use a lot less gasoline. Diesels have bio-diesel fuel going in their favor.
I believe a diesel usually costs a grand or two more than a similar gas model.
In Mercedes' case, the E class diesel is only $1000 more, doen to $900 if we look at invoice prices. 27/37 mpg is impressive, too.
The break-even point obviously varies a lot as gas prices fluctuate, and of course diesel varies less, so around here it costs more or less depending upon the location. It's really hard to get a precise break-even point, but you don't need 40/50k miles per year to reach it.
-juice
Now it's about the same. And diesel actually costs less than premium fuel now, even in my region where diesel is relatively expensive.
For that Benz, you spend less to fill up, then travel nearly twice as many miles on that same tank. So the fuel bill is cut in half. I'm sure you can break even in a year or so, depending on how many miles you drive.
Now, for Subaru, it's going to be tougher. The Forester is efficient to begin with, 23/28 mpg. Plus the $900 extra represents about a 5% increase in the cost, much more than for the Benz (closer to 2%), and it's in a segment that is more cost conscious.
-juice
I'm wondering when the Forester got or will get it's next update.
We really love the Subaru technology, but are having a hard time fitting in their vehicles.
My wife and I are both over 6ft tall and my daughter is fast approaching it. The current version of the Forester is just too small. Driver's space is tight for us and the rear seat doesn't work.
So is there a redesign/update in the works?
Bob
So, Subaru should ruin the Forester just to fit you? No offense, but get a Yukon. Some of us like small vehicles and are tired of automotive manufacturers thinking bigger is always better. The Forester is one of the last reasonable sized SUVs, that is affordable with good fuel economy.
Personally I'm a fan of smaller vehicles, the Forester included - but admittedly the Forester is among the smallest in its class. Better handling and safety are a sure benefit of this. But lately there has been quite a bit of interest in making the next model a bit roomier, perhaps with separate SWB and LWB versions (dreamers will dream), so he is not alone. Also, growing a little wouldn't necessarily put it in Yukon territory.
Considering drohrer's appreciation of Subaru technology, the Tribeca might've been a better suggestion for them. It offers more room and would keep them in the family. Suggesting a Yukon in a Subaru forum is just plain rude.
Doug
I think that Subaru could make a great car greater.
Toyota upsized the RAV4 recently and I was disappointed. They apparently improved fuel economy at the same time. Just think what they could have done with fuel economy if the car was still smaller.
Not everyone is over six feet tall. (I'm six feet even.) Some of us fit just fine in the Forester and think it's nearly perfect. I agree that there could be a couple more inches of leg room in the back seat. That could probably be done by simply moving the rear seat back. Frankly, it's not an issue for me because I rarely carry anyone in my back seat. I'd also agree that Forester styling could be improved a bit but I think the '06 is a pretty nice looking car.
For several reasons, I hate the American auto industry trend toward upsizing vehicles. It's wrong from a fuel standpoint. It makes cars less nimble on the road. It makes them more costly to buy and maintain. It makes Americans look bad in the eyes of the world.
If Subaru wants to enter the market with a new larger SUV, so be it. I just hope they leave the Forester at its current size and work on making it even better and more fuel efficient.
However, a slight, slight, increase in size might improve sales, and allow Subaru to bring more content to the market at an even more competitive price advantage. There are trade offs to increasing in size: price and MPG.
What I do not want to see is the small SUV (CRV, Forester et al) go the way of the compact pick up truck. There is nothing compact about the Nissan Frontier or Toyota Tacoma anymore. Nothing, and that includes the price. Many times now depending on the incentives available, one can get an F-150 for cheaper than a Tacoma. Now, if you are in the market for a truly compact pick up, your options are the Ranger and Mazda clone B Series which have not seen a real update since the first Bush administration.
I hope that this does not happen to the small SUV market. Seems to me that this is a growth market and manufacturers would be working harder to exploit that rather than thinking how they can add inches and pounds to the vehicle.
Just my .02.
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Subaru may be thinking it's going to have to follow that market or lose sales to the Yukons.
Great point about compact pickups; some of us also bemoan the loss of short wheel base minivans.
Steve, Host
Oh well, here's another example of a lost opportunity.
Bob
2021 Jeep Wrangler Sahara 4xe Granite Crystal over Saddle
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Don't get me started on that Baja thread. You know how I feel about that.
Forester is great for a 6'3" guy like me. But I don't have the moonroof in my XS. The mandatory moonroof is the deal killer with the Baja, it takes a good 1 to 2" out of the headroom.
John
Any how, the market cares, so Subaru ought to respond. Rumor has it the next Impreza will have the same wheelbase as the current Legacy, so I expect the Forester to get the same, at least, in terms of wheelbase.
A little longer, a little wider, but keep it boxy! These round SUVs have less useful space. I believe in CR's biggest box test, the Forester actually fits MORE capacity than the much-bigger Tribeca, because it's boxy.
Boxy is good.
-juice
I'm a six foot guy and don't have the seat all the way back when driving my Forester. Surely the car is big enough for those taller than me. I hope Subaru realizes they have a good thing. I'd bet gasoline in the U.S. will be six bucks per gallon by the end of the decade. When that happens, there won't be many people buying Yukons and Hummers.
Here is some useless data for you folks I gathered a while back:
Front Rear Vehicle
43.6 33.7 Forester
41.4 30.6 Grand Vitara (now that's tight)
42.3 32.6 RAV4 (also very tight)
40.2 35.8 X3 (less total combined legroom)
41.6 36.3 Escape/Tribute (just 0.6" more comibined)
41.3 39.4 CR-V (best back seat, cramped front)
41.0 39.1 Element
41.6 36.8 Santa Fe
42.1 37.2 Tucson/Sportage (beats Santa Fe!)
40.8 37.2 Liberty (cramped front)
41.8 36.8 Freelander
42.3 35.5 Outlander
41.2 36.8 Vue
Some are older models, the RAV4 for instance. The Grand Vitara and Tucson/Sportage as well, they've been redesigned since I compiled that list.
Any how, SURPRISE, the Forester has the *most* leg room in its class for the front-seat passengers. The X3 gives up more than 3 full inches!
-juice
There's also the Best Vehicles for Taller/Larger Drivers discussion but I think it's geared more towards sedans.
Steve, Host
I really don't know how you six footers fit in the Forester. I couldn't get the seat back far enough or the steering wheel off my thighs. As for the back seat, it was really cramped for my daughter.
I'm not talking about Yukonizing it, just make the back seat livable for someone over the age of five.
I'm surprised by the front leg room number juice posted. I'll have to go test drive one again. It really seemed tighter than that.
If you got long legs, you'll need to put the seat back further than the average person, and it's possible the seat track doesn't go back far enough.
If you have short legs / long torso, you'll put the seat up closer to the steering wheel. And you just might run out of head room since a some car seats tend to rise to a higher height as you slide the seat forard.
One thing that's easily overlooked - the up'n'down adjustment of the driver's seat. Easily overlooked, and can make a big difference in comfort. Problem is, on the Subie FXS, I don't think the manual passenger seat has the up'n'down of the motorized driver's seat. If that's the case, the driver might be able to find a comfy position but the passenger cannot.
My dad is over 6ft and hates riding/driving in my 4Runner. Swears he just doesn't fit. Yet, I know others of a similar size that fit in just fine.
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2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Seriously, I had to adjust the seat track with spacers PLUS I have to wear small shoes. My inseam is just 30" so I do not have long legs. Tall drivers need not apply for Miata ownership! :sick:
So the Miata would fit someone up to about 29" inseam, ideally.
I'd say the Forester fits people up to around 32" or so inseam. Taller than that and you're gonna have to play with the seat angle and other things, and might not be at your ideal comfort position.
We're all shaped differently, though, so try it before you buy it. A car show is a great place to sample seats.
-juice
That's one of those options that's fast becoming a necessity. It really helps in my Outback, and seat height adjustment made a cheap Kia Rio rental quite tolerable a while back.
Juice, as I've aged, I've shrunk to perfect Miata inseam size. :shades:
Steve, Host
That's so true. Whenever I get in the driver's seat of my dad's car, I tease him about it. He has the seat tilted so far back I ask him, "what do you think this is, your living room?"
True story. When he bought his Camry last year (finally caved to the pressure) he asked the salesman if they came with a bench seat!!
2021 Jeep Wrangler Sahara 4xe Granite Crystal over Saddle
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Forester puts you in an arms-out "Italian" driving position. You sit low, feet forward, as opposed to the bar-stool seating in some taller SUVs.
I prefer it that way, it's more sporting, and you don't see-saw back and forth and get car sick.
-juice
Thanks
No. Maximum fuel alcohol content on the Forester is 10%.
It is so nice to have a car that fits smaller people. I bought a Forester X in April '06, and I am happy with it so far.
I am only 5' 2", and the Forester is a great fit. Even though it's more like a wagon/car, I have great visibility; I used to have a Jeep Liberty, and I was concerned about visibility when moving to the Forester, but I am not concerned now.
With being 5' 2", the Forester is a better fit than most clothing items! :P Capri pants fit like regular pants, and forget about buying dress slacks and blazers without special ordering and/or extensive tailoring. Yeah for the Forester! It fits!
Recently traded my 2004 XT (Auto) on a 2006 X (Manual).
The cruise control on the X appears to maintain speed at +- 5 km/h, on the XT it was closer to +- 1 km/h. I am somewhat disappointed in this and was wondering whether other users experience similar play in the speed? Is it something that the workshop can attend to with the hope of improving the play?
Thanks in advance for you kind input.
Has any one else decided between the two?
A full size spare fits in the 2002 Legacy L, I know because I did the same thing.
07 - EDB on the X is nice, but where is VDC? Sportshift? 5 ratios? I hope we get some of those as well.
-juice
6'-4", 34" inseam - so you do the math. Yes, all torso.
The shopping for a new vehicle came about when gas prices were going through the roof (and hey look, they still are...). Shortly thereafter, my wife and I found out we were pregnant, and the shopping got a bit more urgent.
At about 3-mo., she could no longer comfortably get up into my F-150 4x4. That and a car seat in an extended cab truck just doesn't work too well at all.
Everything I tried was either ok headroom, but no legroom - or vice-versa. Nothing, save a larger SUV, had both. Until I ran across the Forester. It had both - and I was shocked. Yeah the Outback, my nose was about level with the rearview mirror - so no, that didn't quite fit.
Long story short - we ordered an '06 5MT X - pretty much Plain Jane, save the subwoofer and speaker upgrade. I got a steal of a deal, as there date of delivery was severely compromised (say 2 mo. at least).
When I went to trade in my truck (nobody in god's green earth wanted a gas guzzling 5.4L V-8...) the quote between when I first was appraised and when the actual deal went down dropped by over $1.5k. Let's just say I had some "words" with the dealer HMFIC, and they in turn lost a weeee bit of money. But, on to the post.
She's been getting a consistent 22-23 mpg city (my commute to work is about 21 mi RT at about 30-45mph speeds), and 25-26 cty/hwy.
This weekend we had a chance to test her road legs over the Memorial Day wknd. 2 adults, 1 child, 1 baby, gear/clothes/food packed pretty tight in the back, and a cargo hauler on the hitch - stocked w/ a cooler full of food and a second cooler w/ a 12pk beer, and a large milk crate full of misc. itmes for the trip. So we were stocked quite nicely.
On our way to our cabin (190 mi. one way), our speeds were about 65-75 mph on cruise - little to no stopping on the way up - bit more slow and go on the way back. Running w/ the A/C the entire way.
I clocked in at 402 mi on 13.3 gal = 30.2 mpg (just turned about 6k last week) on 89 oct. I was simply shocked!!! Best road mileage I ever got out of my F-150 was 18mpg. On the way up it was low 80s - on the way home it was 95F.
My purchase, along w/ the reasons, has never made more sense than now. I searched long and hard for a vehicle to fit me, my needs (tall being the main one), and my family. I look forward to being one of those guys who clocks in over 200k on his Subi.
Hope this helps anyone needing some real world info.
YMMV
6' 3" here 34" inseams. Same deal--Forester fits, lots of other cars didn't. And the rear view mirror at eye level has been a deal killer for me too. Echo the mileage-- 30 to 31 on all highway, 27-28 combined.
Enjoy your Forester, there aren't many other packages so nicely adaptable to so many needs.
I love the weatherband, heated seats, and outside temperature gauge--I can do my orchard frost patrol as comfortably as anyone can being outside of bed at midnight.
Then, the AWD, I can measure open fields accurately because there are no traction issues (I have a meter that clocks rear driveshaft rotations).
My hope is that SOA doesn't change the Forester too much in the size department. And, that they bring in a diesel boxer in the next 3 years.
John
30+mpg, wow! I've only done it twice or so.
-juice