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Keep in mind you can tip a Ferrari over if you try hard enough. And of course you’re going to see move videos of Jeeps rolled over since there about 50 times more Jeeps on the trails than FJCs. BTW I have seen pics of a rolled over FJC too.
I also happen to know that when I have driven FJC’s that they don’t corner better than the old TJ Wranger, so I would really hesitate to say they have a lower CG to track ratio.
Come to the mountains in the trees and I’ll show you trails where your FJ will not be able to follow a TJ or the new Wrangler simply because it can’t turn sharp enough or fit. The old Jeep CJ-5 is one of the best trail rigs ever since it’s got an 83” wheel base and is about 5 inches narrower than the old TJ Wrangler (much less the new wrangler). When I took that CJ-5 out to the trails I could follow most quad trails where the TJ (rubi or not) would not even fit. There were times when I was on an incline and where there were two trees so close that putting the windshield down allowed me to pass. There is no way on earth your FJC would follow a Wrangler never mind a CJ-5 in that area unless you brought a chan saw.
‘And I make it a point to go forward, so I don't need to see behind me much.’ This right here tells me the kind of wheeling you mostly do. If you never use reverse gear you never go into tight spots. And when you’re in tight spots you take all the visibility you can get. Maybe you are, but most off-roaders aren’t Jedi nights that can drive the trail blindfolded. Being able to see ground closer to the front of the vehicle over the hood and front corners is a big asset. Taking the doors off and even folding the windshield down further helps the situation. Hell, having the top off helps! Don’t worry bud, when Four Wheeler magazine tested the FJC their comment about visibility was ‘I would be nice to see the trail;
The new Wangler has been around for 1 year (keep in mind it shares no components with the 2006 – it’s an all new design) and it has more aftermarket stuff than the FJC which has been out longer. Not to say there isn’t stuff for the FJC, there is, and it desperately needs these goodies to do the tougher trails.
I do know that illumination is preferable to confrontation.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Look, the whole point of this thing is that you seem to think that the FJ is only marginally capable and yet the FJ has proven to be FAR more than just marginal. Not, it's not perfect and has it's drawbacks, just like the Rubi does. You prefer the Jepp, I prefer the FJ. We obviously do different things with our vehicles and you have chosen the one that works best for you. I've chosen the one that works best for me. If I were trying to make my way through the woods between tight narrow paths, I would take the Wrangler. But I don't really do that kind of wheeling. I do take it up into some of the forrests here in Oregon and have no problems with the trails here.
So far the FJ has been more than satisfactory for what I want to do. I guess maybe you're more hard core than me. Maybe not. But who cares? I'm having fun with it. I don't think anyone who buys an FJ expects it to do anything it's not capable of doing unless they plan on doing some major mods. I'm really strugling with what the point of this thread is to begin with. Why bother comparing the two when they are very different vehicles meant to aproach off roading in different way? Makes no sense really. But you've been trying to say that the FJ isn't anygood for any of it, and I'm sorry but you're very wrong. The FJ continues to prove that it's very good at what it does and far better than most will give it credit for. But hey, why do I even care what you think of MY truck? YOU don't have to drive it if you don't want. Keep your Jeep in the trees where it belongs so you don't clog the places I like with your wrecked and overturned and stuck Jeeps.
onnect the sway bar with the push of a button is a HUGE advantage. Sway bars are mainly for cornering and keeping the contact patch of all four wheels on the ground on a SMOOTH surface for best cornering traction.
A-track is nothing new and nothing special, its simply an active limited slip system for the front and back axle that uses the brakes to redirect the torque. GM has been doing this on vehicle for almost 20 years. It does in NO WAY come close to comparing to a locker. Neither A-track or the Lockers will replace a Good RTI. Good RTI means you have more rubber on the ground and you can apply MORE torque if you have more rubber on the ground – PERIOD. So it certainly does matter if all four wheels are on the ground – to think otherwise is folly!
Any dolt can roll any vehicle just about anywhere, regardless of make or model. And we know that there is no shortage of dolts on the trails!
Second, are we talking about an FJ here or an FJC??? They are not even remotely the same thing!
More than one year ago (before the 2007 Wrangler was out) I said the FJC had an advantage in soft sand because of the torque profile. The Jeep’s 4.0L engine, while superior in just about every other off-road situation, did not make the power at the right RPM for soft sand. Now the new Wrangler does well in the soft sand also with the new engine. Plus its superior in many other areas to either the old Wrangler or the FJC. AND you can get it in a more roomie 4 door with decent back seat access and more cargo room than either the 2 dr Wrangler or the FJC. So as far as I can see, unless you love the way the sheet metal is folded on the FJC there it has nothing on the Jeep.
Very well put, and I agree with you 100%, however this is pointless. fourx4ever will not accept that the FJC is a solid performer on and off road. In his mind if it is not a rubicon it is not suitable for anything other than a fire road. He will not change his mind.
The rest of us know that both machines will likely cover the same ground with no problems. :shades:
Yeh, I agree. Oh well. fourx4ever. we'll agree to disagree. At least that's what i've been trying to do. In the end, the proof is in the pudding. I'm sure that even that won't be enough for you. You'll come up with any number of reasons to think that the FJ that just passed you on a trail can't possably be what it is. And I'm sure you'll refuse my assistance when I (or any other FJer) offers to yank you out of some hole somewhere. I personally think the whole rivalry between all the various brands of rigs is pretty stupid and childish. I'm not sure where I read it, but on one of the forums recently, someone made a very good point about this. Why is it that we are infighting when we should be spending the enery we put towards this and put it towards an effort to preserve the access we enjoy to public lands. While we are fighting over IFS vs. solid axles, the Green Party is going behind our backs and legislating our sport away.
I'm not saying the FJC is totally useless, I'm just saying out of the box it's not even close to being in the same league as a Rubicon. Moreover, a 4Runner has pretty much the same potential as the FJC and it's more practical.
It's not rivalry between brands, its the triumph of reality. The two vehicles don't have the same off-road potential off the show room floor - not even close. The same driver can take the Rubicon places the Toyota would only see hanging from a helicopter.
Regardless of what Toyota's propaganda department (marketing) has told you doesn't change the fact that their design department didn't equip the FJC to do the same things as a Rubicon. Plain and simple! For the future FJCs who knows what they will do.
And yes, I could pour about $15K into an FJC and be close to a stock rubicon, but the physical size wont be any smaller and the visibility won't be any better.
And what does 'doing' a trail really mean?
I've seen vehicles 'do' a trail. They get stuck half way through an obstacle and get pulled/winched through the rest of the obstacle!
My point well made. Just because it made it over some trail does not make the FJC or the Jeep Liberty amazing off-roaders. I could probably get a deepfreeze over the Rubcon trail too, does that make it a good off-road machine???
What kind of lift would you put on it? ;-)
The gearing in the jeep, the crawl and low end grunt just make it much much better.
If you really want to play get the rubi.
Do you think the newness is wearing off yet? I see the October 07 FJC sales are off 25% from October 2006. You think everyone that just wanted a different looking CUV has got it? Too many negatives for the FJ to be anything but a novelty vehicle. Do you hate the suicide doors yet? I disliked the ones in my 2005 GMC PU so much, that I sold that turkey. It was a hybrid so I got more than it was worth from a private party.
If I wanted an all out off road vehicle without spending a fortune on upgrades, I would still buy the Wrangler. Truth is I would not buy either of them without a diesel engine. Both are gas hogs.
I'm in need of some assistance. I have a 2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport 4x4, 4 door, 4.0 L, V6.
My rear passenger tail lamp is out. I've tried replacing it and it still won't work. I've checked on my fuses and they are all working.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Try this thread with a search. You may find your answer.
cavman2x, "Jeep Grand Cherokee Maintenance and Repair" #1, 1 Apr 2001 3:16 pm
Sales numbers are certainly not a reflections of quality. The Ford Edsel in the 60's was a very well built car in the day but people hated the styling so it was a major sales flop.
I also think that the slowing of FJC sales is mostly to do with the fact that the fad is wearing off. Remember when we first started this post I said the FJ Cruiser is a lot like the PT Cruiser in that they are fad vehicles. I said the FJC sales would drop rapidly at the 2 year mark and we’re not at 2 years yet but trend is playing out my prediction. The demand for fad vehicles is always crazy at the beginning even though vehicles like the PT Cruiser isn’t much of a hot rod and the FJ Cruiser isn't a super great off-roader; they have the very different style that attracted a market segment.
Now here we are coming up on 2 years since the FJC came out. The word is out that the raunchy killer off-road ads Toyota made with it are not possible with the show room machine. While it's build quality seems to be good, the design is not even close for optimum off-road use, and does not follow in the foot steps of the original FJ-40. It’s one thing to come out with fad styling and sell them like hotcakes for a couple years, but to keep the sales there has to be substance behind the vehicle, it has to prove to be very useful. Toyota told us at the beginning the FJC was going be a killer off-road machine to be serious competition to the Wrangler. When it debuted, some of us took a look at it and knew right away it would never keep up to the Wrangler and certainly not with a Wrangler Rubicon; while others had to do the off-road comparison to find this out. Toyota didn’t deliver on their promise. The hard core off-roaders are buying Wranglers, by now all the Faddy people have their FJCs, and so sales are in a nose dive.
I've had Cruisers in the past: a '73 FJ40 and a '76 FJ 40. The '73 was basically stock and pristine - North Carolina vehicle orginally. (I sold it to pay for kid's tuition.) We also had a '91 FJ80 - great vehicle; had it all over the US. Gotta say, however, that FJC doesn't impress me. My FJs were basically tractors with multiple seats, and they did need occasional attention (they weren't bullet-proof), but they did what they were designed to do. Personally, I'm considering a Rubicon of '04 vintage. They seem more akin to the old FJ except w/ manners and some technology thrown in - and after my 40s, technology is not a bad thing - not opposed to it at all. I've got no complaints w/ my present Tac, however, except it's a bit light on a wet road - but it's not bad on the forest service roads here in the Blue Ridge, and I certainly don't mind the mpg in the 20s.
I had a lot of the same thoughts when too the FJC out for a test drive over a year ago. You are right, the only thing it really has in common with the original FJ is the name.
The FJs you owned were true off-road machines that could be built up with very little cost to be killer crawlers, or bogger. The diesel FJs were even more suited to the true trail driver. There is no doubt Toyota is missing out on a solid long term market by not producing something like the original FJ. What they did with the new FJC reminds my a lot of what Chrysler did in the 80's by bringing out a front wheel drive with a 2.2L four cylinder engine and calling it a Charger.
I think you will be a lot closer to your original FJ's performance and potential if you pick the Rubicon. The locking front and back axles will impress you, beyond what the old Jeep CJs and old FJs could do back in the day too.
here are my main questions:
1) I drive a 2005 Dodge Neon SXT, 5-speed manual, and I have never driven a manual SUV. Is it much different than that of a sports car?
2) Pros and Cons of the 2007-2008 Wrangler?
3) We also own a 2005 Jeep liberty, Special Edition, 3.7L 4X4, 5-speed manual. Does the 2008 Wrangler drive anything like the 2005 Liberty?
Please answer ASAP!
The pros: World class best off-road ability, A convertible with a soft top and a hard top if you order it as such. A 6 point roll cage which enhances safety on and off road. The only 4-door convertible currently being produced, again if you order the 4-door. Very good visibility for on and off-road precision driving.
Cons: It has a V6 - the old Wranglers had a much better In-Line 6, however rumors are that a nice little diesel is on the way for next year. It will not be as comfortable as many cars for 4 and 5 hour road trips.
I have not spent much time behind the wheel of a Liberty, however I think you will find the Wrangler quite a bit different. Obviously even the 4-door wrangler is different from the 2-door.
Best thing to do is go test drive a 2-door and a 4-door. And pick the one that best suits your needs. I would highly recommend the Rubicon package. For the little bit of extra money you get a lot of off-road goodies that will cost literally about 5 times the money to add on later.
(he wants two-door)
First of all, your son is very lucky. My Dad has an '05 Liberty CRD Limited and it drives great as you know. I have a '97 with 153k miles and an '00 Wrangler Sport with 104k miles, both TJ's with the simply bullet proof 4.0 l I-6. I rented an '08 Wrangler X, the new JK, for a week when I was on vacation and was so impressed with it that I had to check the Jeep site to see what the differences were. Every iteration of the Wrangler/CJ improves dramatically in on road manners and off road characteristics. It drives like a truck, but the coil over suspension is forgiving unlike the leaf springs of the YJ and older and the vehicle did not wander a bit. The new JK X model you're looking at is outfitted with several of the goods that the previous generation TJ Rubicon was. The front differential is the newly revised Dana 30 and rear differentials have been beefed up on the base Wangler to the legendary Dana 44 bone stock! The new Rubicon is simply amazing, but at nearly 30k it's a bit pricey and its resale will take a noticeably larger initial hit vs a Wrangler X. I guess it's because that Rubicon means business and everyone knows it's going to have a fun life.
For a beginner driver, I would not recommend the Rubicon as a starter vehicle. It's a little too much truck for someone that young. Remember, the more capable it is the further off road you get stuck, haha. I recommend getting the X. If in a few years you still want the Rubicon, sell your X for a surprisingly high resale and pick up an '08 Rubicon for about $10k less than when it was new and someone was already courteous enough to break it in a little for you ;-). It's win- freakin win. I'd like to add that my bone stock '00 TJ is amazingly capable and can readily keep up with my modified '97 even if it has to work a little harder to do it. The Wrangler will amaze you!
I hope that helps a little. Good luck with your purchase!
(I agree, stick to two doors)
I love the liberty, drives like a dream.
There is an electronically controlled locking rear diff available for about $800, but think long and hard about the kind of wheeling you plan on doing and whether you can justify that extra cost.
In general, all the options available are cheaper when installed by Jeep at the factory than you could buy and install yourself. However, if you add enough of these features you'll be in Rubicon price range before you know it.
anyway, a quick lesson would be appreicated. I've Googled it to death, and I still can't find the exact differences between the X trim and the Sport and the Sahara. I know the Rubi has the upgraded axles. I have a chance at an '06 X w/ 20K on it for 13.5K, but what am I getting? I thought I read where the Sport has upgraded axles, also. Any info would sure help. thanx much.
Yeah Rubcons are on the pricey side. But then you’re not only getting much stronger axles front and back with lockers, but a much stronger transfercase with a low 4:1.0 ratio that yields a crawl ratio between 66:1 or 72:1 depending on the year of Rubicon you end up with. This is far better than what the regular Wranglers and most other good 4x4s offer – somewhere in the 40:1 to maybe 50:1. You also get the rocker skid plates (not that that’s a huge deal). However if you had to add all those things to a Sahara, Sport or X you would be over $10 000.00 in parts alone, never mind the labor. So in this sense the Rubicon is a hell of deal.
The model order in trim and goodies goes Rubicon, Sahara, Sport, X with the X being a base model. You’re not getting a lot of things in the X. I think the 6 cylinder engine is an option in it but other than that you get the 4. I don’t recommend the 4. The fuel consumption of the 6 is only a little bit more, and you get way more power. Other than the obvious engine and transmission options, the difference in the Sahara down to the X is mostly about trim, and creature comforts. Mechanically they could all be optioned the same at the time of purchase as far as I know.
You know, after 40+ yrs of this-and-that off-road, I know for a fact, no matter what you're using, it has to be maintained. My FJ 40s had to be constantly monitored, just like my '60 chevy 3/4 ton pick-up, just like my 61 dodge lancer. My '91 FJ 80 that I bought in '97 needed new window tracks, a new power mirror, and a rebuilt radiator - all before 111K miles. My '02 Tac has been pretty cheap - course it doesn't really get off-road too much.
Anyway, you're right about the standard stuff on the Rubicon - compared to the other trims, it is a deal indeed. It apprears to me to be "over-engineered" which is exactly what I want. I'm presently at the point of purchasing an '04 with 45K. Again, thanx for the info.
You are either out of your mind, or on drugs if you are thinking of getting your 16yo son a wrangler. Giving a new driver a car like a wrangler is just asking for trouble. I can guarantee that he will: do something stupid with the car, get in a wreck, try being "cool" with the car to all his pals and at the same time the insurance on the car is costing you more than its worth. New drivers should never be given either high perfromance, or specialty cars as they simply do not have the experience to handle them safely. You can expect only trouble with the choice of a wrangler. Try getting him a used Taurus, corolla, or some such type car that is boring and safe.
You can do whatever you want, of course, but I just thought someone should give you an alternative thought.
A (shorter) CJ-5 with the factory V-8 would walk all over it off-road
Also, neither the CJ or the FJ hold a candle to a Wrangler Rubicon on the trails.
I have looked at and driven the FJ Cruiser and Jeep Wrangler/Rubicon 4dr. I also tend to get obsessive about things once I get started. I am in a dilema on which way to go -- need expert input.
I looked at the Rubicon model because it seems to be the Jeep product that has reliability and integrity. The brand new sport wrangler would not back up over the dealers embankment for a test drive -- they tried not me.
The FJ appeared well made and got some decent off road reports out of consumers report but dinged on the mileage and safety.
Which car would you recommend for me? Is a 4 Runner set up for trails or something else a better option to get as a started????
Why these two when there are trucks out there.
TX and LA relatives moved to Tundra from Power Strokes and one Cummins.
Thought the FJ was going away.
Look at the ads that I am getting sick of seeing -
I am Ram (Dodge name to disappear) and I am Jeep.
Almost embarrassed to own a Wrangler, but I'll ignore these ads from the current owners and wait for the next go around if there is one.
When I was at a dealer looking at one, I closed the door and it was so flimsy, I guess because of that small back door it closes on. Just felt cheap to me, nevermind the rediculous visibility.
That being said, I'll throw an ARB locker in the front differential and I think that should compensate for your Jeep EGO'S.
Thank God for FREEDOM of choice.
p.s. Jeep 202h.p. FJ 260h.p. bye bye!!
Both vehicles have their purpose.
Jeep: tow to the trail and enjoy being tossed around like a Rube icon
Or drive an FJ in comfort and have good off road capability.
When you get stuck going "off road" in your friends gravel driveway and you get stuck, just give me a call and I'll come pull you out with my old 1942 Jeep.
I kind of remember the guys that built your FJ were running AWAY from Jeeps like mine in 1942.
They still are today too.
Let's hook up your 1942 4 cylinder flathead, provided you haven't dropped a V8 in it , to the back of my FJC. When you get tired of me towing you around backwards then we'll have a real conversation.
My point was they both have their purpose, And if you think that I get stuck in my friends gravel driveway then you obviously have no clue about off roading anyway. You're not offroad if your in a driveway.
p.s. I own a ranch at 8900 ft in the Colorado Rockies you know SNOW, MUD,ETC,
guess what, the FJC has no problem. Just have to KNOW HOW TO DRIVE .
Shame Chrysler didn't have the brains to keep making that car after they bought AMC.
I'm just guessing, but would that be with lot's of speed, and therefore momentum?
As for Jeep, sounds like the Pentastar will makes it's way into the 2012 Wranglers, should be just under 300HP.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/jeep.htm
the 1000s of stall at high speed complaints, the 100000s of windows problems, or lets talk about the death wobble among 1000s of other things, the FJ has never had a recall, the jeeps 1000s of them for everything, We wont even get into the cherokee electrical problems, dont even dare try to compare the quality between the jeep and Toyota,
http://www.internetautoguide.com/10-1/auto-recalls.html
look up to see how many recalls yours has.
here some more jeep problems
http://www.4wdonline.com/bbs/messages/30/369.html
or
http://www.jeepproblems.com/
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1997-to-2006-jeep-wrangler-2.htm
I only put this because on a FJ cruiser board, where guys beat there FJs off road, some have crumpled, nothing to the point of not being able to drive, not near as many broken axels of jeeps (you beat anything enough, it will break)
Only telling of SOME, i repeat SOME of the jeep stuff cause your running your mouth about squash, I can post 1000s and 1000s of HUGE problems thats jeeps have in the last 3 years