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Infiniti M35/M45 vs BMW 5-Series
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Comments
I did not like the tone of your last message. You are the one who was comparing a 350Z to a 6 series not me!
You are deriving conclusions from statements when none are intended. Are you a lawyer?
You bought up that the TSX passed you. I mentioned that the TSX guy might be a more aggressive/better driver. I clarified, that Bimmer inspires you to really enjoy the curves by giving you the kind of feedback and precise steering control which very few other automobiles provide. As a result the driving experience on a road which has been travelled before was much better and enjoyable. A fact highlighted that other vehicles were consistently not able to keep up, though on the straights they would be keeping up or creeping ahead. You yourself have referred to that feeling.
I am surprised that you can construe this as a basis for "irrefutable evidence"? Most of the posts about the handling of the M are generic and not at all specific. No one is talking about why and where the handling is better or getting into specifics.
I bring up the point about savings on an ED since a number of people bring up the "value" of an Infiniti factor. I debunked that hypothesis, that there can be a lot of "value" in owning a bimmer, if saving money is an issue.
And most people who do ED, do it not only because it is cheaper but it is also an adventure. A significant number of folks combine it with a driving vacation through Europe with no rental car expense (check out how much an automatic rental costs in Europe?). People who enjoy driving, love the Autobahns when they can legally take their car to 100mph (and still be under break-in guidelines). People who really love aggressive driving actually take their car to famous "Ring". I know people (married, older people) who spend weeks perfecting the Ring on their video games just to able to drive it well. There is a lot more to ED then just the savings.
Of course if all these things do not appeal to you, the $3K net savings can be a good incentive to make the overnight trip and earn enough miles for a free US trip (or to qualify for Elite status next year). Flights are empty during the off-season and it is easy to find multiple seats to slumber.
A lot of people, even those who buy LPS, would do ED, if it was well publicized. Currently it is well-kept secret, known more to the faithful. Even if you are not doing an ED, BMW lease programs will typically put you in a 530 for around $600-$700 without much hassle; very competitive with the M35.
PDC vs Camera Another big problem with the camera based system is that you are likely to miss any traffic coming from the sides if you focus on the camera and do not look back. The camera is not going to save you since the car coming from the side will be outside its field of view. On the other hand, if you are looking over the shoulder you are much more likely to see the oncoming vehicle.
What’s potentially helpful (in my view) in your post is that you might make some buyers aware of a lease option, the benefits of which they don’t know. This forum appears to be a remote Edmunds outpost and a better place to alert people would seem to be the Infiniti M35 lease forum and the BMW lease forum. Some people struggling there with the choice (and on the LPS forum) might find your ED lease info to be the fact that allows them to make a non-angst-ridden choice of the BMW as their next car. I know that, for a variety of reasons, none of which might be relevant to anyone else reading these posts, that I would not participate in the ED program even if I thought it would save me $200 a month for two years.
The separate reply to Pete about the 350Z was not intended as part of a reply to you. It was, I thin, in retrospect, an attempt (he might not need or welcome it) to encourage him not to let you make him feel bad about his having made a different choice than you. Perhaps a radical misinterpretation, but I do experience you as intending to (or, if not intending to, then inadvertently making your points in a style that might) make others feel bad about not having made the same exact choice as you. That, I believe, heated me up, in a way I now regret, and it might have been an idiosyncratic reaction to the way you make your arguments and not all a good catch of any intention of your nor of anyone else’s take on how your posts come across.
The reference to the Canadian annual best car awards. It’s a unique event, as I understand it, Automotive journalists and car enthusiasts gather. The journalists drive all the cars. Then they rate them. My point was that they reported experiencing scant difference in steering and handling, giving the nod to BMW on one and M35 on the other. So, I thought you would accept, but it seems not, that some people who drive all these cars might not agree with you that the experience of cornering a BMW is experientially so much better than taking any other car around a curve that only the uninitiated (I fully expected you to attribute my not appreciating the difference to a flaw in me) would not experience it and agree that’s it’s a fact beyond discussion.
Different people look at different things. I wandered into a BMW showroom in 2003 (after being frustrated in trying to buy a house), and realized that there is a definite difference. I bought a car within a week, after the Edmunds TCO showed that the per-mile ownership cost of a 2003 525 was just 10% more than a Nissan Maxima :surprise:
Since then I have bought (leased) three other BMWs. I test drove many other cars but felt that there is really something unique about them which made me go back. Then I discovered European Delivery and BMW CCA and realized that I could drive a $51.7K car at the cost of an Accord EX V6 . Of course the value aspect adds to the ownership experience. But the biggest reason always is the grin which the balance between the drive-train and steering most bimmers give.
I am sure M is a great car, but it does not seem to have the kind of following of people who would like to go into more details of the car, not just numeric like the skid-pack G ratings but the emotional/experience aspect of it.
Both my car leases are going to be up in two years. We have a growing family and I am afraid I might have to enter the mini-van heaven/hell. Any thoughts on how to make it fun?
What you share there is something I experienced (still do) with BMW versus Infiniti. I am a fan of BMW (subscribe to the in-house magazine, read the book on the company's history) and when I owned one, I felt I was a part of a central piece of automotive history.
Audi has the same appeal, for any of us for whom that's appealing.
And, personally, when I drive and Audi or BMW, I know what "German feel for the road" means.
My own reaction to the M35 took me a bit by surprise -- "Oh, that's different, unique, not less than, but not the same or better. I want to try that." Still have some buyers remorse about the Audi, but in two years, if that's how I feel ...
Nonetheless, excitement and emotional investment in the unique total experience of the M35 runs high, so feelings can too.
If it makes you feel any better, I have two kids who are now 17 and 14. They grew up in the back seat of my ES 300, and now enjoy riding in my 530i (ain't no WAY they're driving it!!!). My point is that I never once felt the need to go the minivan route--there always was sufficient space for them and their paraphernalia--and the cars are safer into the bargain. Safe, roomy, a blast to drive...what's not to love?
Ummm...I have no opinion on camera vs PDC, but I can tell you that looking over your shoulder is no guarantee that you will see traffic coming from the side. Last week I was broadsided while I was backing into a driveway. I was looking over my left shoulder in the direction I was going, and the moron coming down the street plowed into my passenger side. I don't see how either of these toys would have prevented this, but looking didn't help either. I wonder whether, if I had been looking forward at a screen, I might have seen the car out of the corner of my eye...but I really don't think it would have mattered, because he never stopped until he hit me. Some things just cannot be prevented by technology.
From what I have heard BMWs do fairly well in most accidents. I have no data for Infinitis. Hopefully it will be as good.
If you are looking over the shoulder, you can see folks coming from one side at least. Since we drive on the right, and look over the right shoulder, the car which is more likely to hit you should be visible. The car which hit you must be driving on the wrong side of the road. The camera will not have a very wide field of vision for you to be able to react in time.
In any case, you still have a better chance of seeing one when you are looking back rather than when you looking in the front. And the front PDC sensors are very useful in parking in garages.
With regard to the BMW online lease calculator, has it been your experience that it comes in high? It gave me a monthly payment of $890 for a 15K/yr, 24-month lease in CA, with no money down, but you suggest mid-$600/month payment.
If I have any further general questions, I'll take them to the BMW ED lease forum.
1. Lease starts 14 days before pickup.
2. Car takes 6-8 weeks to West Coast after drop-off (2 months max)
3. BMWFS marks up standard MF by 0.0003; dealer can mark it up by 0.0004 (like regular lease)
4. BMWFS makes one payment (2nd payment)
So you get the car 2.5 months after the signing of the lease. You make (N-1) payments (N = 24 or 36 months) and (N-2.5) months of usage.
It is easy to do $1000-$1500 over European Invoice.
The kicker is that residual is calculated over US MSRP.
My car had a US MSRP of $51170. ED Invoice was $44510.
Residual for 24 months/10K miles was 77% (YES!). It would have been 74% for a 15K Miles. For 36 month lease the residual would have been 63% and 60% (10K/15K respectively). For my 24month/10K lease residual was 39863.00. I got about 11.5% discount over US MSRP and payed for 11.5% of depreciation for 2 years. The base MF was also good 0.0016. ED added 0.0003. I did multiple security deposits (5x deposits with a reduction of 0.00005 each). Since then BMWFS has increased the limits to 7 deposits with a reduction of 0.00007 per deposit. Just got my BMW CCA check for $1K yesterday.
Note that BMW was running leasing specials during Dec/Jan when I locked in my rate.
The current rates are from Ask a Dealer Section at bimmerfest which also has ED invoice prices.
2007 BMW 5 Series 530i / Compare Instant Lease Quotes (add 2% for 12K and 3% for 10K lease to residuals)
24 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 70% of MSRP – .00225 Base Money Factor Rate
36 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 60% of MSRP – .00225 Base Money Factor Rate
Note the dealer can mark up by 0.0004 and there is a 0.0003 ED markup.
The leases on bmwusa.com are the MAXIMUM you should EVER pay. Think of them as the List price. Just negotiate up from ED invoice and ask for the BMW buy rate MF for the car. For a 3 series $800-$1200 over invoice is do able for a 5 series $1000-$1500 over ED invoice is do able. Call the ED/Internet specialist at different dealerships and just ask them for the over invoice cost and any MF markup (try for zero). You can also do this via email. I did my deal in less than 60 seconds and spent a total of 30 minutes at the dealer. I did waste some time talking to some other not so helpful dealers, but the ED internet specialists are the one to go to.
Since BMWs are option heavy the lease price varies a lot with what you chose. If you are doing US delivery on a 2007 530 with MSRP of $55000, and $2500 discount over MSRP and base lease rates, with multiple security deposits (7) your payment should be close to $700 + tax for 36 months 15K/year.
These lease rates are nothing special and might improve. The residuals are 4% less than the December special and the MF is 0.000625 higher
The ED lease will be around $100 less. You can typically get more discounts then what I posted to knock another $20-30 off. Often 24 month ED leases are cheaper than 36 month leases. Also note that 2007 530 series costs about $2000 more than a 2006 530 with Sports/Premium Packages. BMW Assist is now standard for 4 years and comfort seats are standard with the Sports Package.
In an earlier post you made a good point: "Most of the posts about the handling of the M are generic and not at all specific. No one is talking about why and where the handling is better or getting into specifics."
The following is not about the M, but I'm using it to get more clear on what you consider to be adequate ways of addressing "why', "where," and "specifics" ...
July "Automobile" magazine. They compared BMW M5, Audi S6, and Mercedes E63 AMG. Ranked AMG first, S6 second, and M5 third. They conlcuded: "Unlike the BMW, which feels a little twitchy as it nears the limit of adhesion, the AMG hugs the tarmac." The editors continued to list the ways in which they found the Mercedes better to drive than the bimmer: "There is also less lift-off weight transfer, less acceleration squat, and less brake dive, and, despite the subdued body movements, you always know where you are on the speed and g-force map." However, the AMG "surpasses the [Audi] S6 only by a whisker."
In addition to my interest in what you think of that (you might reply over on the LPS forum, if comparing German sedans doesn't fit here, as I posted a variation on this over there), does it exemplify what you are asking M35-defenders to write here?
Charlie
Something like that. Maybe with not as many "professional terms".
For example: Last month I drove an Avalon out of the JFK airport which has a lot of grid-separators with curves. For the first five minutes I could not drive the car properly. The controls did not respond the way I thought they would and often I would have much less directional control than I am used to. The steering felt soft, had a lot of play and did not give me any sense of confidence at all. After a few minutes I got used to it, but it was an utterly boring driving experience.
I am sure the M is 100x better than the Avalon..
On the new BMWs the active roll stabilization is really nice since it reduces the body roll (and discomfort) during fast cornering making driving on the same grid-separators a blast! Like the comment about the M5 above, Z4 too is twitchy at the limits; the Porsche's do better at the extremes. But we are talking extreme limits which have to try hard to hit in normal driving; like taking a hard right turn in excess of 35mph from the edge of the right lane (shoulder) to the right most lane. Those roadsters sure can be thrown around.
One thing that always bothered me about the BMW was the oppressively loud engine auxilliary cooling fan which always ran in Florida....I never could get used to that noise. The navigation was also technologically ancient....turn a knob to find the right letter and hit enter, etc. I think the only thing I actually miss are the automatic windshield wipers.
The M35 navigation and voice response is light years ahead of BMW; the headlights are much better on the M35 (I did not have HID's on the BMW); the bose 2 channel radio is far better than the base BMW radio.
The only area where the M35 fails is the passenger seat which on the '06 is just too low and not height adjustable. The 07's fix this, but the lease deal on the 06 was so good right now that I decided to live with the seat rather than wait for the 07 and presumably a much higher MF. It's an incredible rate on the 24 month lease and with multiple security deposits, my MF is actually .00002 ....
Lease price on the new M35 is almost identical to the 03 BMW 530i...and in 2 years I get to drive another new car....I suspect there will be lots of new options..new mercedes E class diesel (with perhaps a better repair history), new M37 (perhaps better gas mileage), etc.
The sad part is that BMW wasn't even in contention for this lease because the seat belt fitting on the 06 door pillar is fixed...and no matter what my 5'0" wife did adjusting the seats, the seat belt just cut her across the neck. I guess there are no short Germans.
Handling - The M35 (with Michelin tires)is equal to the 530
Performance - The M35 is slightly quicker
Driving Comfort - M35's interior dimensions are a plus
Electronics - The 530 is not in the ball game - M35 is the hands down winner (reliable electronics too)
Overall Reliability - 530 had several (minor) problems, one (minor) for the M35
Both do their job well but my next vehicle will be a 2008 M35.
Most of my driving is around town with an occasional 400 mile road trip. I want the power to a) get on interstates, pass cars 60-80mph to get into a clear space of road and to get out of trouble when someone does something really stupid on the road. Both have enough power. I don't care much about acceleration off the line at a stop light and there are not curves or hills in Southwest Florida so cornering performance is, unfortunately, unimportant.
If I were back in Connecticut/vermont, I would buy the 530 because the BMW suspension is unbeatable. In South Florida, the M gets my buying $'s.
I have a 2 year lease (at very close to zero percent interest) and I too am likely to purchase a 2008 M35 with the expected new 3.7 engine and the new transmission that Nissan put in the Maxima this year.
Total Quality Index
* Satisfaction with complete ownership experience
* Perception of quality
* Emotional attachment to vehicle
2006 Infiniti M35/M45 - 908
2006 BMW 5-Series Sedan - 904
2006 Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedan - 900
2006 Audi A6 Sedan - 893
Don't know statistical significance of point differences. Even the 15 point difference between M35 and A6 might or might not be significant, given that this is a score out of 1000.
I have just broken in an M35 and have mixed reactions. Great acceleration. Worst mpg of any car I've driven since 1987 Chevy Blazer. Not super-engaging on curves and turns, but comfortable in all aspects.
"Luxury Car" Segment
Rank- Vehicle- TQI Score
1- BMW 7-Series Sedan- 928
2- Infiniti M35/M45- 908
2- Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class Sedan- 908
4- Jaguar XJ- 905
5- BMW 5-Series Sedan- 904
6- Lexus LS 430- 903
6- Lexus GS 300/400- 903
-- Segment Average ----- 901
8- Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedan- 900
9- Mercedes-Benz S-Class Sedan- 897
10- Audi A6 Sedan- 893
And you have to be a fairly conservative driver to find the handling of the E39 equal to the M35. The E39 inspired an amazing degree of confidence in curves and turns, which I do not think the M35 provides.
Oh well, it's only a 2 yr lease.
I love most things about the m35x, except the gear shifts from 1 to 4 and the mileage which is just plain bad.
A better option often is to get someone else to assume the lease, using one of the lease market places like leasecompare or even craiglist.
Is there an implicit question in your post? If so, what is it?
Otherwise, enjoy your M. I've certainly had good luck with Nissan products.
Dave
Price and performance makes the proposition a tough one.
The M45(V8) competes with the 550(V8).
Price: what is the price difference because the pairing is first based on pricing.
Performance: what will be the performance difference- how close are the respective cars in the bracket?
I havent seen any website or car magazine compare the M45 to a 535 anywhere.
Anytime i see the M45, you always see the E550, GS430, A6 4.2 and 550 in the same sentence.
Guess we are getting our information from different places.
I normally refer to Motor Trend, Car and Drive, Road and Track, etc....
Kudos to BMW for improving the engine. The 530 (I6) with 255 HP was WEEEEAAAAAAKKKKKKK. Im sure the new engine will hold its own next to the M35.
Either way, all great cars.
That's one perspective. I, persoanally, wouldn't consider the m35, one reason being the engine. It had a little more power(25hp) then the 3.0L BMW engine, but it's loud, thrashy, heavy, and very thirsty. That just doesn't seem worth it for a .3 second 1/4 mile gap... My buddy with a g35 says he's happy to get 21-22mph highways.
OTOH, the newer BMW engine has 300hp, 300lb-ft, and has the positive traits of the older motor. It's been dynoed at ~350hp--which would make it more of an m45 competitor..
BMW M3 (420HP)vs Audi RS4 (420 HP)
BMW 550i(360 HP) vs Audi S6(435 HP)
BMW M5 (507 HP) vs Audi RS6 (520+HP)
So the S6 is not a direct competitor to the M5, it is currently being compared to the M5 because of the absence of the RS6 for the time being.
If someone is looking at a M45, they are also looking at the BMW 550i, Audi A6 4.2, MB E550, Lexus GS430, etc...
All 8 cylinder engines.
But Thank You for the SPECS on the AUDI.