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Computer screen said 42 MPG. Most fill-ups, the computed MPG is pretty close to the computer number.
Those of you who are getting in the mid-30's, read the driving tips heading! The 'pulse and glide' method on the accelerator really does improves the MPG. If you drive the hybrid like a regular gas vehicle with constant pressure on the accelerator pedal all the time, your MPG will not improve.
Keep the MPG dial on the dash as close to the 40-60 MPG range as possible. Drive in the E-mode (gas engine off) as much as possible!
1. The best I got in the beginning was 34 and now 23!!!- I was explained by the service tech that is very normal !
2. The thermostat in winter time (with snow on the ground) when set at 69, registered 89.7 through the vents when verified by service dept- I was explained it is due to climate control jacking up cabin temp (for over 40 minutes ) but is very normal !
3. The voice command occasionally works and after a long time does input a no. in the phonebook - again very "normal" since it works- "even if not to your" expectations: I was made to believe it!!
I am truly confused - Should I give up the headaches and be happy with whatever left of new TCH??? I need some serious inputs!!! Thanks
To all 3 questions the answer is yes it is normal, but let me add some explanations...
1) When it gets cold outside you will have a noticable drop in MPG. Several reasons are true for non hybrids as well. a) Winter gas, has less BTU per gallon than summer gas and this is due to air quality requirements made of the refineries. b) a small change happens because the gas pumps are 'normalized' to give you the equivalent volume as if the fuel was at ~70 F (check the pump next time and you should see it in very fine print) c) all vehicles are programmed to reduce emissions first, improve mileage second. This really hits us as not only does the gas engine (ICE) need to be at operating temp, but so does the catalytic converter. By needing to get and stay at a certain temperature, the ECU will run the engine far longer before it hits mode 4 (the mode where the TCH will run in EV mode) and then it will run again if the ECU senses that the engine or catalytic converter have cooled off.
2) the temperature that you select on the controls is a target for the ambient temperature in the cabin. So when you want to warm up the cabin from an unheated 30F to 69F, the car will push out as much heat as it can to try and get the cabin air to 69F.
3) This could be a fault with the system, or a piece of insulation in front of the microphone or it could be that your voice or enounciation is not within the programmed parameters of the voice command system. This is one where if the system is working correctly, you will have to learn to say what the system wants to hear.
The most I saw was 34-36!
What should I do now? The dealer insists on system check being normal!
I am now wondering how come since 06, no TCH owner encountered such a drop in mpg and always managed to get higher BTU fuel during winter time!
Also, the Voice command is a real joke! I have had the manager fumble a few times "Hitlering" the command center and finally succeeding in one isolated telephone number entry! He definitely knows the right enounciation and knows exactly what to say and how to say it - the way the system wants to hear! He indeed took his time convincing me how mine was better than that of other couples' system where he just had spent couple hours trying to make it work!
No, we all feel the hurt of winter, see this thread at GreenHybrid "Thwunk! Temp drops...and so does my gas mileage. " to make you feel a bit better that you are not alone...
With the voice command... I can't say that I am a fan of it either but it does work for me, but it is particular in how you 'talk' to it. A slower monotone helps the recognition.
Look around at yearly posts on this forum for tips.
i'm also being told by dealer and toyota customer service that vehicle is "running as it should". my MID displays 26-28 MPG ave.
i've read a lot on this forum and others and honestly; who in their right mind would pay the extra cost of a TCH if they didn't expect to get EPA estimates or very close to it? to say to mra605 or any one else getting 5-10 MPG less than EPA estimate for TCH that it is "normal" is insulting.
i am beginning to think these forums are biased/edited (to include only the most glowing reviews). OR toyota is ignoring a very real issue which is a high concern for certain TCH owners.
this post is not targeted at larsb; simply a reply to last post relating to most recent LOW MPG post (mra605).
i'm convinced i am driving TCH optimally.
QUESTION REMAINS: does this forum contain ANY posts where people have had low TCH MPG and the issue was resolved by toyota?
there was one case where a honda hybrid owner sued over less than EPA - anyone know the outcome?
thanks
If you live in a cold(er) climate, the effects are real.
- If it is cold outside, the ICE needs to run longer before it gets to operating temps that permit mode 3 and mode 4 operation. Worse, once the ICE shuts off, it starts to cool and eventually will need to restart just to keep itself at the proper temps. Since it is cold, you also have the internal heater on. That heat is from the coolant circulating in the block. As you take that heat and blow it inside the cabin, it needs to be replaced by the ICE running.
- short trips also hurt. In the summer, my ICE is at operating temp within a few blocks, now in the winter I'm pulling into my parking spot and the engine will finally turn off when stopped (6mi)
My last 2 tank averages were 21.5 & 24.6 mpg, In the summer my averages were around 40. In my Explorer, the summer average was ~18mpg, winter it was ~10.
The 5-10 mpg less than EPA IS normal in cold(er) climates. It is a result of regulations (emissions over mileage) and physics. Please don't feel insulted by it, it just is that way.
And the only way a suit like that would ever succeed is, FIRST, if you could prove that Toyota or the EPA "lied" on a test result- and that could NEVER be proven.
Another required portion of a successful suit would be to have ZERO CARS of that type which could achieve EPA "estimates" and that also could never be done. An automaker is never going to sell a car of which zero numbers of that car can achieve EPA estimates.
The most you can hope for, if you have an issue with your car in particular, is to get it declared a "lemon" by an arbitrator. That would require that your dealer and Toyota would have to certify that YES, your car's HSD system is working properly and YES, it is not capable of performing proper hybrid propulsion, which would mean the car IS a lemon.
The problem with that is that if indeed all the hybrid components ARE performing up to spec, then the CAR WILL INDEED be able to achieve EPA results under at least SOME circumstances.
I'm almost certain that no one has ever successfully had a hybrid car declared a Lemon because it was not meeting miles per hour requirements.
So what can I do to help you, you ask?
First, you should try to find a knowledgeable hypermiler in your area and let them test your car. There are many, MANY variables that go into achieving maximum MPG out of a hybrid car:
Tire pressure.
Length of trip.
Oil type.
Tire specifications.
Driving style.
Temperature during trip.
Road conditions.
Weather.
I've got a story for you. A couple of years ago (maybe 3) I had a local couple contact me and say, "We can't get good mileage out of our Honda Civic Hybrid, and we located you on the Internet and was wondering if you could help?"
I met them at a local mall. First thing I noticed: They had replaced the OEM tires and rims with low profile tires and custom (heavy) chrome wheels. This immediately meant that they were losing a ton of MPG right there.
I also noticed that their driving style was completely wrong - they were leadfoots, or at least, they liked to quickly accelerate up to "slightly above the speed limit" as a normal course of affairs.
I gave them the tips I could, and showed them that with a slightly modified driving style, they could improve their MPG. But those tires knocked 3-5 MPG off their chances right away.
From experience, I can tell you that the Toyota HSD technology in the TCH is very sound, and very effective when used properly. My personal lifetime average is around 34.1 MPG after 41,000 miles. GH.com has at least 50 owners with as much as 40+ mpg average.
If your car cannot at least 34 MPG when tested by a local hypermiler, then there is something wrong with the car and Toyota should repair it.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
re: driving optimally (i've already considered some or most of these things)
live in ohio, car in heated apartment garage. rarely use "internal car heater", just front/rear defroster without fan. i turn these off at stops so AS can engage. (otherwise car will stay at 0 MPG)
as far as ICE working until car heats up - far left dial is past "blue zone" almost immediately (few blocks) and stays almost in middle for the rest of trip. shouldn't that mean TCH is at operating temp?
MID and dial show battery mode or EV mode engaged, but yes mostly ICE mode.
5 - 10 MPG variations are acceptable for some drivers, but i bought my TCH expecting very close to EPA estimate (1-2 deviation) and a return on my 29K investment. forums like these with thousands of "meets and exceeds EPA" posts were also an influence - including non-paid endorsements by media.
whenever someone posts like me here, it seems they get a few responses like those i have received and then nothing....
at least there is a moderator and i hope NOT to suffer the verbal abuse that is rampant on the john true v.s honda site.
thanks,
On another forum, someone recently posted that while it looks like it is at full operating temps, it is still about 20C less than during the summer (70C vs 90C).
You say your TCH is 7 months old, what was your mileage in the first couple of months?
Overall, I think you will see your averages start going up with the outside temps in a few months.
only first tank of gas "met or exceeded" EPA estimates. :mad: after that can sometimes reach 31 MPG tank ave., usually directly after fill up if i take her out on highway with cruise on.
then next day MPG slowly returns to between 26 -28 and sometimes highway drive won't improve it. :confuse:
i want to reply to larsb, think he is correct, i might have a lemon :lemon:
please give me any new ideas. thanks
thanks for all the posts, read many of them before i posted so i believe i have a good understanding of these mileage variables. besides wouldn't the dealer/mechanic detect more obvious things like tire pressure or specs?
yes, that's what i thought, a "hypermiler" should "borrow" this car and see if driving technique changes anything.
my scientific mind says; there should be a way to objectively determine if consistently LOW MPG is user error OR something wrong with this particular car :sick:
perhaps i'm dreaming but my first thought was... rather than denying my assertion that MPG has been for most part 26-28, TOYOTA should play "hypermiler" and offer to take the vehicle themselves (for a reasonable amount of time) and see if they can get close to EPA estimate.
worse yet, for Toyota to claim that 5-10 below EPA estimates is "normal" and they never implied otherwise during sale? PLEASE! MPG is biggest selling point.
BTW: thank you so much for proving you are not a "ringer" for Toyota with your honest and practical reply.
as for The problem with that is that if indeed all the hybrid components ARE performing up to spec, then the CAR WILL INDEED be able to achieve EPA results under at least SOME circumstances.
the last post on the john true vs honda page says something like "would you buy a gallon of milk that advertised... will taste and have the nutritional value of milk under at least SOME circumstances... carton may or may not contain full gallon etc."
a small MPG variance from EPA would have been acceptable. i believe Toyota and/or Honda would be better off dealing with the consumer than putting up such a fight. it's all about good customer relations and truth in advertising.
as far as i can tell, since my TCH checks out o.k. on their computer - there is NO NEXT STEP.
Toyota has nothing in place to deal with loyal consumers who are having my same problem. i suspect there are enough people in my boat that these law suits will continue especially since consumers are being told "deal with it".
i very much appreciate the fact that i am not being called "stupid" by this forum for basing my choice of car on advertising, media forums and blogs and EPA MPG estimates. the backlash against john true vs honda has been shameful.
my TCH may be a lemon OR Toyota may be facing a bigger problem. They would not be the first to "deny, deny deny" until someone took legal action.
in all, i'm very disappointed with Toyota right now.
thanks
here is the EPA site that has various graphs
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/quickdds.htm
here is the graph of the EPA highway driving cycle.
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/hwfetdds.gif
And the city cycle.
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/uddsdds.gif
thanks for the reply. are you talking to me? i really don't know what i'm looking at. if it helps improve performance - i'll bite.
here's my REAL problem. i made my purchase based on advertising, media forums and blogs and EPA MPG estimates all of which promise a return on investment through gas savings.
another thread HERE
http://townhalltalk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0dc3d7/530!make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybr- id&ed_makeindex=.f0dc3d7
doesn't seem to have a single post about real world estimates being consistently off. there is always someone to correct the math... so if my numbers are 26/28 cty/hwy (rarely reaching 31 MPG) aren't i consistently 25% under EPA estimate?
plain and simple, i never would have bought this car if Toyota had said "your EPA MAY vary up to 25%, we don't guarantee performance nor assist customers with poor MPG performance"
HERE's a suggestion... someone should track these LOW MPG claims and invent a "do-hicky" that can attach to the car to distinguish between driver error and true car performance under average conditions.
What's my next step - other people who post with this issue seem to just give up
Next step:
You really need to find a local hypermiler who can test your car.
There is something wrong with the HSD system in your car only if that person cannot do what they think they can do with the MPG.
If you were in Phoenix with your car, I could answer that question in less than an hour.
I don't want to downplay your issue in the least, but it's really not rocket science: Either your car's HSD system CAN perform properly and there is nothing wrong with the car, or it cannot perform properly and there IS something wrong with the car.
Some further interrogation:
What kind of display system do you have - the digital system in the middle stereo area, or just the basic one that comes with the normal display cluster?
Do you notice the car moving into electric mode (called E-Mode ) when it is warmed up, and the battery charge is good, and speeds are below 42 miles per hour?
Are most or all of your daily trips very short, and/or on dirt or gravel roads or in very hilly areas?
Do you have the original OEM tires on the car, inflated to at least 32 PSI each?
Have you learned the "feathering" trick to force the car into E-Mode?
Does the gas engine shut off at red lights?
If you are running the heater all the time, and your trips are short and in cold weather, you will definitely see lower MPG because of those factors.
thanks for replies, i know you are busy. will post again later.
larsb, many of your questions are already answered in previous post #825, #826. i learned a lot from both cnd tch and larsb earlier posts B.M. (Before Me).
larsb - you have a killer sense of humor, and cnd tch - you are very nice (must be canadien?
in answer to unanswered questions, have MFD that comes with car. don't drive on gravel... yes weather (snow) plays factor. but as i said in previous post problem has existed since purchase in june 08. also just had car checked by dealer including psi.
already agreed with "hypermiler" idea in concept - but where does a single mom with few connections find such a person? i suggested toyota take claim seriously and play "hypermiler".
also agree and see the merit of you both patiently repeating some of the most obvious aspects which affect performance because MPG questions come up repeatedly and people can't search through all posts.
perhaps one of your questions will turn up user error
meanwhile, i'm just glad i'm not receiving the amazingly hostile comments the two honda hybrid guys are getting. people overwhelmingly conclude the drivers are at fault and call them complete idiots based ONLY on the fact that they managed to get EPA estimates.
neither of you two have "downplayed my issue", however this forum certainly does...
but larsb please explain why the "burden of proof" as to whether my car's HSD system CAN perform properly and there is nothing wrong with the car, or it cannot perform properly and there IS something wrong with the car falls on the consumer of a very new MSRP car?
am i just being naive? should i know the answer? is it buyer beware.... i sure expected better from Toyota.
thanks to you both. i'm not giving up so easily, i will follow every suggestion in hope to either improve mileage or "prove" to Toyota the HSD is not working properly and THEY need to get involved.
larsb, you've been here longer. do you know of ANY instance where Toyota has corrected a mileage issue with Hybrid Vehicle? (also asked in previous post)
where's my "hypermiler"? any volunteers?
my son just said "that's a horribly LONG post"! YES IT IS! Because i feel horribly upset and horribly helpless.
This past weekend there was a bit of a warming up into the 40's. On a highway trip back from New Jersey I averaged 41 mpg.
Ergo, warmth, flat highways and driving steadily at the speed limit produces much improved mileage. We have experienced colder weather this week and my tank average is down to 36.5. Hybrids are like humans, we don't enjoy the cold.
totally agree about weather.. my real world numbers have been consistently 26/28 tank ave since june 08. sometimes reaching 31 MPG.
would be thrilled with you numbers, simply satisfied with EPA
There are too many variables to deal with in normal stop and go driving to ever know for sure what accounts for mileage. Highway driving, on a level road and at a set speed, eliminates all that. Good luck.
i do understand the necessity of repeating some of the obvious tips, since same questions are repeated some of the "try first" tips come up also. thanks for caring enough to reply.
of course, i have already set cruise control to 65 and driven 30 + miles on level light traffic. once my MFD displays 26 tank ave., even a trip like this does not produce EPA.
can anyone direct me to a member who sells Toyota Hybrids and might give me tips on how to get dealer/customer service to get involved?
since car checks out o.k. on dealer computer Toyota response has been "car working according to expectations" nothing more they will do.
Future Replies: Please try to click on orly1 and read previous posts before suggesting "new tip"
thanks for your interest
Don't get too hung up on the "tank average" when you are doing these tests.
When you got the advice on the hwy test, he was not talking about a TANK AVERAGE, he was talking about looking at the REAL-TIME MPG meter and making sure that you are around 40+ MPG when you are at about 65 and on a flat surface.
Search YouTube for "camry hybrid" and watch the video I posted about "48 MPG at 77 MPH" to see what I mean.
Where do you live? I'm going to try and find a hypermiler in your area to test your car for you.
i think you are talking about watching big dial rather than MFD.
why not trust MFD display? always hovers between 26/28. rarely hits 31 since purchase.
am i calculating AVE MPG wrong by believing MFD?
live in cleveland, ohio area.
Future Replies: Please try to click on green orly1 and read previous posts before suggesting "new tip"
thanks for your interest
just to repeat, i would be content with close to EPA estimates. NOT expecting my particular vehicle to ever give me the high end numbers being posted on forum.
On a tank to tank basis, the average tank came out to 38 MPG in the summer, with some in the 40's, enough of them to get me to 41 MPG overall. My winter is getting me between 31 and 35 MPG per tank, depending on how cold it is.
On another matter, I have never completely understood the "pulse-glide" technique. I have tried, but slow down too much on the glide and then end up having to press the gas too much on the pulse, and mileage degrades! How long is each phase? 1 second? 10? I don't think I am doing it right.
Thanks.
Macolyte
I have been watching this with interest. Hope to see the results soon.
I can't imagine not being able to match the new EPA levels. When I traded at 67,000 miles my lifetime FE was over 37 and that is in the hills of WV. I wish I was closer to Cleveland as I would love to drive a car someone says has something wrong.
there is more than one person on this forum that has posted very disappointing FE and got the "run around from toyota" - they just seem to give up.
thanks to larsb pep talk, i hope i will have the energy to pursue this further. the contact has emailed me and has offered to meet and drive the car with a "scanguage".
that is very nice since i have no other way at present to tell whether it is the car or the driver.
what car did you trade at 37? mine is 09 TCH.
is that "mac lover" - because i am also mac user. i have seen some of your earlier posts, when you first got the car and were stuggling to get EPA.
as per request, my length of trips ARE short, during the winter. and cdn_tch did explain the concept to me that even though the dial "looks as if" the car is warmed up it must still cycle in and out of ICE (post #823)
he also accepts 10 MPG less during winter.
consistently gotten roughly 24-25 MPG in winter (20º s to 40º s) sounds like me, only i've gotten these numbers regardless of temps.
your car sounds like mine, however i would not have purchased based on these numbers. in earlier posts, i have stated that from time to time the MFD will read between 35 - 40, usually right after fill up on a 30 minute plus drive.
then back to city and mileage creeps back down to below 30 tank average.
i've been ill this past week so i have not contacted GM at purchase location as suggested. will keep posting.
frankly all these posts that claim they are getting above EPA "without even trying" are beginning to depress me. (jealousy)
thanks for your interest. at least they posted my review on edmund's
i just heard a line in a t.v. show making fun of people who believe in the EPA estimates, saying that "EPA is just a number to get you in the car and take a test drive" so that you will then base you purchase on more/other factors - MY BIGGEST deciding factor was a belief in EPA estimates and blogs, media and other "PRO FE" propaganda.
good night macolyte
In all fairness to Toyota, a handfull of people that don't get EPA results are not something that giant corporations would address. I realize there are a few people with your results but Toyota has sold thousands x thousands of hybrids. I'm sure for every legitimate complaint like yours that is still probably an environmental issue rather than a flaw that they have 100 people complain that simply do not know how to drive the TCH.
I believe the new EPA numbers really reflect the results of a drive run where the averages is of someone who does not maximize the advantages of the hybrid system.
Like all things it may not be a fit for all circumstances and your may be one.
I don't remember seeing it posted but what did you drive in the past in similar situations and waht milage did you achieve as compared to the EPA?
Cold, short trips would have easily dropped your results on your previous vehicle too.
My son got 32 mpg one time with a load of kids, my wife would get 35. I always would get 38+. Those differences though only amount to 10% differences
i just heard a line in a t.v. show making fun of people who believe in the EPA estimates, saying that "EPA is just a number to get you in the car and take a test drive" so that you will then base you purchase on more/other factors - MY BIGGEST deciding factor was a belief in EPA estimates and blogs, media and other "PRO FE" propaganda.
The EPA is only a "relative" number I ever used. I typically would average about 10% above the city number. The ad's today of 17 to 25 mpg are interesting but my experinece was that I would get about 19 on average with an EPA like that. The tests are accurate for the most part. They try to require a consistant test so that people can compare. However many people never get EPA on any of their cars and some average near the top consistantly.
I know I had an Infiniti FX45 and averaged 16 mpg and NEVER got over 17. Then as part of a maintenance service they picked up my car (nice service since I lived 100 miles away) I decided to check my car. I figured some kid would pick it up and hot rod it so I reset everything. To my surprise a nice older gentleman picked it up and when he got back I saw that he averaged 18.5 for the trip. I would have swore it was impossible to get that type of milage.
I'm not complaining a bit about the car as it's probably one of the best cars I have ever owned; smooth, quiet, comfortable, nice sound system, reliable etc... I don't see how you can obtain the advertised MPG numbers unless you are driving under ideal conditions with the purpose for trying to obtain the maximum MPG though. The car will always use the gas motor to accelerate so driving around a city with a lot of stop and go is not going to result in very good numbers in my opinion.
I considered a VW Jetta TDI diesel before buying this because I own a 125000 mile 98 Beetle TDI that I have never gotten less than 48mpg on no matter how hard I drive it. I enjoy this car but if I had it to do over I would have bought the TDI. Just too much playing around to get the good mileage with this one (my wife will never do it, lead foot you know). I now have both worlds though and can play the gas vs diesel price war games with the oil companies.
For all those out there that just don't have the feel for the TCH I highly recommend you condider the VW diesel, all the perks of mileage with none of the messing around. Don't worry about the engine it's clean, quiet, lasts forever, has a 10k mile maintenance interval, cheaper, tax credit, 3 years totally free maintenance.
Did you just need to learn so techniques or wa sthere a problem with the car?
Please let us know so we can all learn from your experience.
Thanks.
After 6800 KM (4225 Miles) I am getting only 40 MPG. I know that the info on the web site is an "estimate" but it shouldn't be 20% out. I don't drive with a heavy foot, in fact I try to get that little "excellent" message every time I shut the car off.
Has anyone experienced poor gas mileage like this?
I put a short answer into the 'Ask the Community' question area, but here is a longer post...
First a few questions.
- What part of the country do you live in?
- Do you use a block heater?
- How far/how long are you average trips?
Some general comments:
- The ECU is programmed to reduce emissions first, get better mileage second
- One full throttle acceleration an on ramp easily negates 10-15 minutes of easy driving
- After the coolant temp reaches 70oC, you have to be stopped for ~7 seconds for the car to transition to Mode 4, which will let you get into EV mode at any speed below 64kmh.
- Until the engine reaches 80oC, having the heat on will generally keep the engine running regardless of other factors.
I will be testing those suggestions from now on.
I live in Vernon BC Canada. It's in the Okanagan Valley near Kelowna. It has not been that cold here yet, never below freezing. I do have the heat on now but most of the Kilometers on the car were on a trip from here to Vegas in October. I wish I had known about feathering on that trip.
My average trip now will be about 15KM or about 10 Miles. I suspect with the cold weather coming the MPG will not get any better except on longer trips.
I didn't know anything about Mode 4 so from now on I'll be trying to hit that stop light on the way to work so I can stop for the 7 seconds.
Thanks again.
new owner FAQ at GreenHybrid.com.
Mileage starts to go down when temps start going below 10oC. You use the defroster, heat in the cabin, winter gas, etc... Looks like Vernon also has a less than flat terrain, so that will hurt as well depending on how much you go up and down hills. Also, don't use the CC in hilly terain, that hard acceleration is really rough on mileage.
15km is a good distance, but I find that my 10km is not enough to reach full operating temp in the winter, even with it plugged in at home.
If you have questions, ask. There are some amaizingly knowledgeable people on these forums that can go down into the technical details of the TCH. I've learned a lot, but still have way more to go...
Practice hypermiling, and pulse and glide, and visit prius chat for more tips on driving a Hybrid. You can get better than what you are getting, you just need to learn how to drive it, right now you are driving it like a normal car, and if it was an I4 Camry, that is about what you would be getting, but once you get the hang of getting it into EV, and learn how to tweak the go pedal, you will see the mileage go up.
You have intersected two unfortunate situations, which to me means that your MPG for that particular commute in the cold weather will always suffer.
You will do better in mild weather when neither the A/C nor the heater will run.
Outside your commute, you should do fine. I have a 2007 TCH with almost 60K miles, and I have averaged 34.8 MPG for my entire ownership.
Good Luck !!!
Thx.