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Comments
I know of someone who lives nearby, so they're driving basically the same roads as I am, but they get significantly less mileage than I do. The reason? They like to feel the snappy feel of the car, accelerating hard from lights, cornering hard, etc. So the fact that they get lower mileage then me with the same car has a rational explanation beyond "there MUST be something wrong with the car".
Driving conditions and/or driving styles are MAJOR factors in mileage performance. It hasn't mattered what vehicle we've had over the last 30 years, we've always been right at the EPA sticker numbers for our cars. Over the course of 9 different cars, that has to be attributable to driving style in combination with the roads we drive on.
(1) Take your car out to a freeway/highway. Immediately before you get on the freeway/highway, fill the car up.
(2) Drive the car, preferably using the cruise control if yours has it, for a minimum of one hour at a constant speed. Two hours is even better.
(3) Get off the freeway/highway, and immediately fill the car up.
(4) Calculate the mileage right there.
If your car gets a decent mileage per (4) above, meaning that it gets somewhere close to the EPA rating for the highway, then the car is fine. Any fluctuation of gas mileage should then be attributed to driving styles and/or environmetal factors, including such thing as the gasoline (i.e. E10 versus 100% gas - verify what your favorite gas station dispenses).
The control of the above procedure is to provide the car with an optimum driving condition that cannot easily be varied by driving styles.
Everyone is talking about O2 sensors and whatnot, but I believe it could just be the odometer. Has anyone with bad mileage checked their odometer? Maybe, as a rough test, drive your Versa on a 10 mile (as logged by your odometer) journey from your driveway and take the same journey with another car. Verify that they both read about the same distance on the odometers. A slight variation on the odometer would totally revise your MPG calculations! Just a thought.
Mileage discrepencies are not unique to the Versa by a long shot. One of the things I do around here is edit consumer submitted reviews on all sorts of different cars. Mileage complaints in reviews are very common, and most of the time are accompanied by listings of favorite features of the vehicle that read like this...
It really gets off the line fast, but the brakes wear out too soon and the mileage stinks.
Gee, I wonder why?
I also agree that mileage discrepancies are not unique to the Versa; I know several Fit, Civic, Corolla, etc. owners who are upset with their mileage. Case in point, my fiance gets low mileage out of her Civic, but when I drive I get really high mileage (she has a red-headed temper and always pushes the boundary between being on time and being late).
What I was concerned with was the number of drivers reporting that they were shifting before 3000rpm, going 55mph on the highway, setting the cruise to maintain speed, and using other techniques (besides the advanced and sometimes dangerous hypermiler techniques) to save on gas and are still reporting less than 25mpg. I figure these people deserve some type of answer (not that I know the answer, I was merely throwing out a suggestion that the odometer might be calibrated to a smaller tire or something).
It's funny to me when people say "it's the driver" when it comes to MPG, but then they never say that when it comes to water pump failure, transmission failure, AC failure, etc... Cars are not identical mechanically and if they were, then every part would break at the exact same time, which isn't the case. So that means engine and other components are slowly failing at different rates.
Maybe you have a AC compressor that's slowly failing and creating additional friction that reduces MPG slightly. The AC works, but the additional friction will cause it to fail earlier than average. Or some additional friction within the transmission. The hurts MPG and may cause the transmission to fail early. Or maybe some electrical component is drawing more electricity then normal...again this can hurt MPG slightly. And on and on.
So the sum of all these tiny imperfections in every component in a car will lead to different failure rates of parts, as well as different MPG. That's why MPG is such a broad range. So for those folks who are told it their driving habits and driving conditions, go get a rental car (the same as the car you're driving) for a week and compare MPG. If you're able to get better then aveage MPG in the rental, then it's probably not your driving habits or driving conditions...it's the car.
I am suspecting that Nissan already knows what or where these "weak points" are. Even if they knew, though, Nissan would never tell us what those points are because they would become a representation of sorts, which is a legal gas tank being checked with a lit match.
I have a one year old, 6-speed, SL that has just over 5600 miles on it. I don't drive that much and I am far from a speedster. Since I bought the vehicle I haven't been exactly impressed with its fuel economy. I have adopted the 1-2-5 shifting regimen the last few months and my range has increased around 20-30 miles.
I have had the tire pressure light on for the last couple months. I have repeatedly checked my tire pressure (TP) and kept it at 32, like it says on the placard in the door frame. Last week, I took my Versa into the dealer because it was having some starting issues. When they saw the TP light, they asked what I kept my TP at and I said 32. They, the dealer, then told me that Nissan recommends that Versa TP be somewhere between 35-38, even though the placard says 32.
Needless to say, the car rides much nicer than it has in some time. I have yet to run through a full tank with the new TP but I am curious to see what effect it has on economy.
I understand your frustration and do feel bad for your plight. About "deceptive advertising," one problem with that is the MPG figures are provided by EPA, and Nissan just puts out what the government is giving. Every automobile ad is always careful to say "EPA Mileage of xx city, xx highway." So you see, Nissan would have a pretty solid defense against any claim of deception which, legally speaking, requires a specific intent to defraud, which is very difficult if not outright impossible to prove when the U.S. Government is the actual source of information.
I have 2008 Versa with CVT. Every time I fill up the tank with 11Gal, I can only do 180 miles which will be about 16 MPG. It is really frustrating. I going to take my Versa to the dealler soon.
I have gotten really good mileage with almost all my cars (except the PT Cruiser, which is a notorious gas hog, in the EPA rating and in "real life") by driving easy - no more than 1/4 throttle for acceleration, putting it in neutral and coasting to a stoplight instead of keeping the gas on and braking at the last moment, reading the traffic ahead of me and coasting down when traffic is slowing on the freeway, etc. Of course the biggest gas saver (and also my biggest gas expense, in absolute terms) is the fact that I have a long freeway commute which is usually pretty free flowing, and home and work are both close to off-ramps.
By way of example, my wife got 14 mpg on our Impala in her short trip, around home driving, when I took the Impala over from her, my mileage computer indicated 26.5 and I got 26 (writing down mileage on every gas receipt, calculating and averaging mileage over a long baseline). Ditto with the PT Cruiser - 17 mpg for her, 24-25 for me. 35 mpg on a Scion xA, 38 on a Yaris (why? go figure - same engines, but the Yaris might have been a little lighter and had different gearing). 37 on my first tank on the Fit.
I'll let you know how it works on the Versa. It could be a problem with the drivers, or a problem with the car. At first I was blaming the car, since there are more complaints about low mileage on the Versa than praise for good mileage, and usually numbers don't lie. But now I think it's just slightly possible that the Versa performs too well for its own good - the Fit is fast too, but it pushes back and lets you know you are pushing it, keeping drag-racing toned down. But the Versa is a lot quieter and smoother, too easy to "drive harder." Go figure.
Yes, there have been class action suits filed against various automakers on these bases, but I have never heard of anyone prevailing in the end. If I were Nissan's attorney, I would NEVER let my client pay to anyone who complains about the mileage, since that would be a slippery slope that knows no end.
It is extremely frustrating to buy a product as expensive as a car and to find out that it does not perform as expected. I would like you to succeed in compelling Nissan to "pay up." However, to be honest, it would not be an easy battle.
So many things can adversely affect mileage performance. Let's ignore driving style for the moment. How about driving conditions? Someone driving their Versa in a hilly area or in heavier traffic than I face certainly isn't going to get the same mileage performance.
There's no way to do it, but I would love to be able to take out a car that someone is not satisfied with the mileage on and put it through MY driving style and conditions for a week and see what the result is.
I know for a fact that driving style has a lot to do with it. I sold a Sentra to a local buyer when I bought my Versa a little over a year ago. I was getting 33-34 mpg drving around town here. Today I happened to run into the guy I sold it to and asked him how things were going. He told me he wasn't even getting 30 mpg. Now since we're driving on the same roads, and it's the same car, that pretty much means their driving style costs them at least10% in mileage compared to what I got. While I'm no hypermiler, I wasn't trying to drive the Sentra like a sports car either.
You should be able just to drive the damn car without constantly thinking about what new thing you can do to get the mileage you were promised.
If I were an attorney trying to certify a suit against Nissan as a class action, and heard you say the above, I would ask you not to join our class, as you would jeopardize our chance against Nissan. Your thinking is basically that "a car should get the mileage I want no matter what I do or don't do." By saying this, you are handing Nissan a great defense material.
A car's fuel efficiency is never a product of vacuum. As others have pointed out, there are many variables that play a role, some more significantly than others. EPA estimates are a product of parameters set by the testing agency, and all of their parameters have a significant bearing on how the numbers are derived.
Drivers are one variable that is rather significant. To give you an example, my wife and I have always had two vehicles, and sometimes we switch cars to see how we do in terms of MPG. I always, regardless of which car I drive, always get 5 to 10% better mileage than my wife does, even though our driving routes are essentially the same. In our instance, the so-called "driving style" is a major variable.
Driving environments are just as important a variable. There is a big difference between an open highway and the Manhattan traffic. Gasoline factors in, too. Where I live, the gas is always E10. When we go into another state where ethanol is not mixed in, the mileage picks up.
And then, there is the car. In my experience, some cars experience wild fluctuations in the mileage obtained. Such cars are very sensitive to changes in all these variables that I have mentioned, for whatever the reason. One of the tricks in getting a good mileage in this kind of vehicle is to observe and learn the trick of taming the beast, so to speak. Yes, a driver input is very important there.
AND, some cars do have defects. A defective O2 sensor or transmission, for instance, can do great harm to MPG. And there are variances among the same model car. I used to work in the automotive, and used to watch cars in the final assembly phase being tested on dynamos. No two cars registered the same dynamo results - some did worse than others (of course, to be allowed to ship, all vehicles had to show results within a certain tolerance). In other words, there are differences among cars that roll off the same assembly line. If you hit a wrong one, you may actually get a worse mileage than the one that was built before and after yours. But significant variances are rare in today's automotive world.
All these things play a role in the gas mileage. One thing is for certain, though. No one has ever promised that your car always gets a good mileage regardless of what you do or do not do. I have never seen such a representation by an automotive company, including Nissan. If your feeling is "You should be able just to drive the damn car without constantly thinking about what new thing you can do to get the mileage you were promised," you may want to check to see where a "promise" was made. Where was the promise, and what was the wording? As far as I know, EPA has always invariably said, "Your mileage may vary," and Nissan is merely using EPA-provided figures.
If you want to track mileage, here is a system that has worked well for me:
1. Try to use the same pump at the same gas station. After the pump clicks off on its own, push the nozzle deep into the filler neck and start pumping again. It will usually click off almost immediately. Why? When you let the nozzle dangle on it's own, it usually isn't in too deep which allows a higher fill, but of course the auto shut off is good about turning off the gas. You can't try to add more gas from that shallow insertion point, you'll get a spill. But by pressing the nozzle in deep and doing a careful "top off" you get a pretty consistent fill, tank to tank. BTW, always fill up BEFORE your commute, not before you park the car, since the gas needs some room to expand, and you should burn some off before parking again.
2. Print out a receipt and write down your mileage taken from your trip odometer. Reset both odometers for next time. The receipt has the gallons. Do the math with a calculator at your office to avoid round off and simple math errors. The number you get, if you go from full to empty (instead of refilling more often at the half empty level) should be pretty good.
3. Average the mileage from several receipts. That further reduces variances due to different amounts of "fill."
4. If you can't use the same pump, try to always fill on level ground.
5. The biggest fill variations come from ground that isn't level, or from nozzle shut off variations. There was one station on the road to L.A. that was set very aggressively and would really top off the tank. My mileage on that tank looked miserable. My mileage on the next fill up looked terrific. All due to fill variations, not changes in driving habits or conditions.
It takes very little city driving to drag your mileage down. Conversely, driving above 70 has a strong negative impact, since air resistance goes up quickly at higher speeds.
Good luck!
All the cars that I have owned in almost 30 years have shown a rapidly accelerating decline once a "half tank" is indicated. More than once, there was less than 30% gas left at the indicated half tank (easy to figure out once you know what your car's range is). You really cannot tell what your car's mileage is like by looking at the fuel meter. At least, in my experience that has been the case.
In other words, what is your actual mpg number? And have you averaged more than one tank?
Finally, most people drive a higher percentage of city than they think. Even with my 37 mile freeway commute and very little surface street driving, my average miles per hour (per my old Impala with a computer) was only about 37 miles per hour. So you may think you are doing a lot of zooming at 70 when you are really doing a fair amount of slower driving, idling, and slow and go. Stop lights kill gas mileage!
Generally I fill up as I approach 400 miles.
CVT: 27 city, 33 highway, 29 combined
6MT: 26 city, 31 highway, 28 combined
4AT: 24 city, 32 highway, 27 combined
You have a slight bias towards city driving, but barely so. Given all things equal, your mileage should be very close to the EPA combined estimate, if slightly less to account for the little city driving bias.
Of course, that's EPA estimates, and not all things are equal among us.
Let's try this experiment that I always recommend to people who are having mileage problems. This particular method equalizes many, if not all, of the driving variables that people experience, and can usually tell you whether the car may be the major culprit (like mechanical problems).
(1) On a weekend day, perhaps earlier in the day, when the traffic is light, drive your Versa to a freeway.
(2) Right before you get on the freeway, fill her up, and also check the tire pressure to be sure that all tires are either regulation or higher in pressure.
(3) Get on the freeway as slowly as safety allows, get up to the speed limit and set the cruise control. If you don't have the cc, do your best to keep the speed constant.
(4) Drive for at least one hour this way, preferably for two.
(5) Get off the freeway and immediately find a gas station and fill your Versa up.
(6) Calculate the MPG right there.
If the figure you get out of (6) stinks, or at least below average, you have a possible case for a defective something in your car. If, on the other hand, your mileage looks decent (e.g., close to the EPA estimate for highway), then other factors than the car are likely the culprits.
This is a tedious test perhaps, but I think that it is worth trying.
It is called 'defensive driving' - a concept lost in these days of 'I got my big bad SUV and will run over the top of you!!'
or "put the car in neutral and coast to at stop", or "avoid fast starts", or go through any such bull****
the bull*** is called 'not wasting gas' for any model not just a Nissan!
If the Yaris driver who posted a while back can still get great mileage despite doing everything in his power to lower his mpg
ECHO .......not a Yaris..there is a difference!
The old axiom that using a higher grade gasoline won't help is no longer true. Most modern cars have piezoelectric chips to detect engine knock and "de-tune" the engine on the fly so it won't harm itself on regular. Conversely they can adaptively tune themselves to deliver more power (only slightly more power) with better grades of gas.
On several of my cars I have noted performance increases (but not mileage increases) when using mid-grade gas. On one car (Odyssey) we have to use PREMIUM or we get residual engine knocking on even MILD inclines.
So it's going to quickly become an urban myth that cars are certified to run on regular - yeah they are certified not to self-destruct and to make their rated power, but if you put better gas in, they run smoother and stronger.
At least that is my experience.
However, if a particular car has no fuel detonation issue, then pumping a higher rated gas than the car is rated gives you no advantage. That is because there is no more or less energy put out by the higher-octane gasoline.
The piezoelectric chips certainly sense detonation timings and make adjustments accordingly, but, unless a car has an issue with detonation, they cannot give you more power because more energy cannot be released where there is no extra.
This is one of very few instances in which I actually disagree with micweb. I'd better write it down on my calendar as a historic event, as it may never happen again. :P
"Many modern engine computers electronically adjust ignition timing, either advancing it to take advantage of premium-grade gasoline or retarding it slightly to keep the engine from knocking on regular fuel. Such systems use special sensors to "listen" for knock, which can damage the engine.
"A manufacturer could therefore accurately say its engine will run satisfactorily on regular gas, yet perform the horsepower test on a higher-octane blend, knowing it will automatically take advantage of that fuel to produce slightly more power. Under the new standard, testing is done with the minimum octane fuel required for that model."
That was from an article on inflating horsepower for ad purposes.
This link should take you to the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/03/automobiles/03CARS.html?scp=11&sq=use+high+oct- ane+car&st=nyt
"Engine management systems are now an important part of the strategy to
reduce automotive pollution. The good news for the consumer is their ability
to maintain the efficiency of gasoline combustion, thus improving fuel
economy. The bad news is their tendency to hinder tuning for power. A very
basic modern engine system could monitor and control:- mass air flow, fuel
flow, ignition timing, exhaust oxygen ( lambda oxygen sensor ), knock
( vibration sensor ), EGR, exhaust gas temperature, coolant temperature, and
intake air temperature. The knock sensor can be either a nonresonant type
installed in the engine block and capable of measuring a wide range of knock
vibrations ( 5-15 kHz ) with minimal change in frequency, or a resonant type
that has excellent signal-to-noise ratio between 1000 and 5000 rpm [112].
A modern engine management system can compensate for altitude, ambient air
temperature, and fuel octane. The management system will also control cold
start settings, and other operational parameters. There is a new requirement
that the engine management system also contain an on-board diagnostic
function that warns of malfunctions such as engine misfire, exhaust catalyst
failure, and evaporative emissions failure. The use of fuels with alcohols
such as methanol can confuse the engine management system as they generate
more hydrogen which can fool the oxygen sensor [76] .
The use of fuel of too low octane can actually result in both a loss of fuel
economy and power, as the management system may have to move the engine
settings to a less efficient part of the performance map. The system retards
the ignition timing until only trace knock is detected, as engine damage
from knock is of more consequence than power and fuel economy. "
[Bold and italics added.]
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/section-1.html
That article alludes to the more common type of adaptation, lowering performance to deal with "bad" gas. But some ECM's (engine control modules) can also "tighten up" performance when they get better than the legally required minimum octane fuel - I just need to find an online article to confirm my memory. :shades:
economy and power, as the management system may have to move the engine
settings to a less efficient part of the performance map.
I am in complete agreement with the above-mentioned theory. The operative words are "too low ocatane." Too low versus what would be the next issue. If an engine has a premature detonation issue, then the so-called "regular" octanage may be considered as being too low for the purpose of eliminating the knocks. In such cases, use of a higher octane gas would be advisable. However, as you yourself have indicated, this particular acticle says nothing about improving the gas mileage or performance enhancement of a car that runs fine at its rated octanage.
ECMs can and do learn. In order to take a full advantage of the delayed combustion that a higher octange value provides, the engine however must have the necessary compression, be it from its own native internal compression or with a combustion assist such as a turbocharger, to utilize what the extra octane provides. Otherwise, the higher octane gas would burn in the same way as the "regular" gas. And given that no extra energy is present in the same amount of gas for both a high and ragular octane gases, you generally cannot squeeze an extra performance unless the engine is designed for it. There are of course many other variables in this, and there may well be exceptions to this general rule.
It's an interesting subject all the same. I am actually looking forward to reading an article that you are looking for.
I read that Nissan is cutting back production of the Versa. Not a great cutback, but enough to raise eyebrows given the price of gas and demand for small cars. Assuming that's true, why would Nissan do that? I think word is getting around that the Versa is just a bit too thirsty for its size. It has other virtues that compensate, but probably not quite enough. Honda can't meet the demand for the Fit, no cutbacks there.
But IMO, the lesson is clear: if you're gonna buy a tiny car, get a stick. Modern autotrannies are great but they still suck up power and fuel. Physics always wins. Regardless of the EPA estimates, a stick can always get better mileage than a CVT or autotranny (if driven properly).
I have just located a Nikkei article. You are right - the Aguascalientes plant has stopped the lines for both the Versa and Sentra. They halted the lines on March 20. The reason is not the Versa-specific, but rather that a general downturn in the U.S. ecomomy has depressed the demand of Nissan cars across the line.
Thanks for flagging this event - I did not know this.
I've had it since August. It now has 6500 miles on it. It is an 07 hatchback with CVT. I've never gotten below 29, even in all "in town" driving. I'm rarely in stop-n-go traffic however since I don't live in or travel to large cities. My last trip gave me the following (rounded):
32 (hwy/town), 32 (all hwy - strong headwind/sidewind), 33 (all hwy - strong headwind/sidewind), 37 (all hwy), 36 (all hwy).
Hwy driving consists of cruise control set at 65-70.
The Versa is a very fun car (at least mine is). It is very spunky and seems to want to go fast and be quick off the blocks. I'm a laid-back driver, however, and am not frequently driving it like that. I wonder if I did, how bad my mileage would be. I should take a tank and just zip around, letting it be the peppy little car it wants to be. If I do that, I'll be sure to report back.
Fact is, how many cars can the U.S. economy absorb? Automakers are complaining about decreased sales and blaming a recession. But they can produce far more cars than there are buyers, even in the best of times. The Versa is a sales hit but that doesn't mean everyone wants one....
It's almost like automakers make one feel guilty for not buying a new car every 3 yrs.