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What is really funny is when they lease them, blow the miles allowed then end up buying out the lease and financing the residual for 5 more years. Imagine 8 years paying for a car? Oh, and BTW that 12 year thing Allmet mentioned, you would have to be on something :confuse:
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
All one has to do is go and drive a Lucerne V8 and an Avalon back to back. The difference becomes apparent right away. While the Lucerne is a very nice driving car the Northstar does not spool up like the Toyota 2GR and the Avalon feels noticably quicker. As has been noted the Northstar is a great engine, but isn't it already outclassed by GMs own 3.6 direct injection V6?
That's a tried and true engine that Gm employs, but at 197 hp, it needs to go
That's an understatement. However, if it does anything for GM it keeps the reliability ratings up.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I couldn't believe it either, but it does exist and there are plenty of folks that will go to that length just to have a premium vehicle. Just to be able to say they drive one. I'm sorry, I can't do that to myself. :sick:
Have you seen the latest Lucerne commercial? They mention that it has more room than the ES350 and then it goes on to say, if you want to beat a Lexus, there's room for that too! LMAO (I'm sorry...I had to interject that one). The sad thing here is that in order for the Lucerne to "beat" the ES350, it would have to do so in V-8 trim. Now THAT...is sick!!!
actually I believe it is the Northstar equipped Lucernes doing better reliability wise than those wheezy 50 year old V6 models.
That is weird. If anything the 3.8 4 speed combo was always great in the relability department.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
this is kind of simple -if I may. Torque is an actual measurement of 'twisting force' or power - and it is indeed what you feel in the seat of your pants when you hit the accelerator. HP is torque applied over a period of time and is a direct indicator of a car's ability to do useful things -like accelerate.
The mathematical relationship between the two is: HP=(torque*rpm)/5252.
Therefore as engine speed increases so does the HP, and likewise if a particular engine is slower to increase its rpms it is also slower to increase HP, or if an engine is rpm limited the HP it produces will be less. This is why a diesel car will usually feel quicker then it actually is - you start with very high torque at a comparatively low rpm but the engine is not only rpm limited but it is also slow to increase them.
Things that will generally make for an engine with lots of torque include engine size and type - the more cylinders and/or cubic inches the better, compression ratios -turbo and/or supercharging, and engine geometry (longer piston stroke = more torque), all among other things. Truckers all worship torque for obvious reasons - it is what gets that 30 ton+ trailer moving, and they are too terribly concerned with the fact that it might take a few minutes to get up to highway speeds. As big torquey engines apply to cars we drive every day, it is exactly as pletko says, a lot of torque accessible in lower rpm ranges will generally make for a more driveable car - the difference now is that we are starting to see engines like the CVVTi 2GR Toyota engine is that now we can 'program' the engine (by continuously varying, intake/exhaust valve and spark timings) to maximum efficiency and get that same accessible torque in an engine that revs more freely (think HP). Not to mention the added benefit of having less displacement and fewer cylinders to feed (think FE) Kinda the best of both worlds - smaller and more efficient engine, max engine torque still available at usable levels, all leading to cars this days that are cat quick, producing unheard of FE levels relative to performance.
one thing that is missing is DI.
Sadly, not anymore. Now all you can get is the ancient 3.8, unless you get the Super with the pushrod V8 from the Impala SS.
By the way, dragging this message back on-topic: I accepted the other poster's challenge to price the Lucerne CXL V8. But while there, I also checked its specs. Yes, the CXL has a package with the Northstar. But stability control (standard on Avalon and Azera) is an extra-cost option even at a $34K sticker, and you can't get the Magnaride suspension at all. That's critical, because everyone who's tested the car says it pitches like the Queen Mary without it. So if you want a Lucerne that drives well, you're still talking the CX$.
REALLY, to me this is another indication of the sorry straits that GM must be in - seemingly they can't produce enough of the 3.6s (can you say Malibu) and are forced instead (UAW?) to continue with the 3.8 that nobody wants. Think SC is also optional on Avalons as well BTW- it's almost not possible to find one without it though - another excuse to add $600 to the price, I guess.
As far as the 'tightened up' MagnaRide, agree with you, it does make the Lucerne decidedly not like a Buick, much like the Avalon Touring mods. take away a good piece of it being an Avalon. But, different strokes for different folks - for many buyers in this class, the 'softer' the 'better'.
There is a special edition CXL coming soon that will have the Magna Ride and the V8 as an option. Right now the V8 is only available on the CXS. There is almost always rebates on the Lucerne that will lower the OTD price as well. If you don't mind the FE penalty the V8 Lucerne is nice. However, I think the Avalon is the overall better bet with the 2GR V6 (quicker and better FE) and while it will cost more initially it will hold its value better.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Port injection systems inject the fuel into the port and then the gas/air mixture enters into the combustion chamber. It's temperature rises as it's compressed, and if the octane rating is not high enough for the engine's compression ratio, it'll preignite without a spark ( known as knock or detonation ).
Note that the DI engines in use today will commonly run a compression ratio of about 12:1, not the 10:1 which is pretty normal for modern, non DI engines.
The old hot rodders rule of thumb is that a 1 point rise in compression ratio will yield up to 10% more power.
DI systems require higher pressure injection systems and very precise metering of the fuel, hence, higher cost.
How could you forget the Acadia triplets. That is where GM is allocating most of the 3.6s to. I am sure they make more money selling those than the relatively low volume LaCrosse.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I think you hit the nail on the head, when you mentioned Malibu. We have discussed the 3.6 shortage before.
Considering how many GM vehicles use the engine, there's no wonder it's in short supply. As I've mentioned before, I live by Flint where the 3800 is made and ( drumroll, please ) that engine is in it's last year.
The LaCrosse was the only vehicle on that platform ( Grand Prix, Impala ) that used the 3.6 engine, and the typical LaCrosse buyer probably had no clue that they were getting a modern, hi-tech engine anyway. It's probably cheaper to produce the 5300 V8 than the 3.6, and it makes production simpler without having to worry about the additional engine.
" beancounters " instead of product people.
GM has gotten itself in the mess it's in by arrogance and stupid decisions, not the UAW. For the last decade or more, hourly worker wages have increased by only 3% per year, while the people making the poor decisions concerning product have reaped millions. Most UAW workers return an honest days work for an honest wage, they only build what they're told to build.
Fact is, for the past 15 to 20 years, the bulk of GM development money has gone into trucks, which have typically held the large profits which meant executive bonuses and stock options. Is it any wonder that their cars are generally not competitive? ( Bob Lutz is working to change that )
As far as the LaCrosse, it's very expensive to certify, build, and ship the 3.6 to that assembly plant, as well as engineering the production process just for the few LaCrosse buyers that want that engine. Most of the old timers who are buying that car ( whose basic chassis debuted in 1990 ) are more happy with a good old V8.
Is it not true that GM, for example, effectively can not shut down old plants etc. BECAUSE of obligations they have made to the UAW 'guaranteeing' the jobs?
Or is it not true that Ford in its efforts to right its ship has been 'buying out' contracts with UAW employees so it can close plants, in effect paying folks NOT to work?
This is definitely off topic except as it applies to Buick being unable to get a more competitive engine in the Lucerne or possibly just trying to save on some production costs as you mention, and would also agree that since the demographic of a Buick is indeed the 'old timer', that the HF 3.6 would not likely sell as well as that big ole pushrod V8
A common perception (or misperception) though - but if true, this wouldn't be a case of the indians leading the chiefs? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
The owners of Lucernes aren't looking for the same car as some posters. If that's what the poster wants that's fine for them. Don't paint large mainstream cars as having to meet your specifications. A Northstar in a Lucerne? Great. DTS. Great. A 3800 does fine. Dependable. No sludging problems. High torque.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
197hp and 230 lb of torque have no business in a car that weighs damn near 2 tons (heck, it has no business these days in a car that only weighs 3000 lbs!) - a simple road test on any road that isn't billiard table flat will tell you that - and it has nothing at all to do with getting to 60 in 3.9 seconds (or 6 or even 7 (or 10)) .
It had never occurred to me that 'mainstream' and 'asthmatic' were the same thing!
Besides which, the Lucerne 3.8 rates pretty poorly reliability wise compared to even its own V8 cousins (at least according to CR) , never mind compared to things like Avalons/Azeras/Maximas. You really do need to sit in the back seats of things like Avalons/Azeras/Taurii b4 you can really judge which car is really 'bigger'..
Correct me if I am wrong but its only about 5" longer than the Avalon and has about an 1" more front leg room and less than a 1/2" of rear legroom. Honestly that is the same size class to me. The Avalon and Lucerne are shopped by the same buyer IMO. Someone looking for a quiet roomy sedan. The Lucerne is great and with the V8 drives very well. However, for my $$ I took the Avalon for the fact I can get the same power as that V8 with better economy than the V6 model Lucerne.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Of course they are (and were) and by the same older demographic - and the reason why over the years that the Avalon has been 'the best Buick that GM never built'. It was in 2005 when the new Avalon got bigger and a whole lot more spunky that it became something more than that.
It's not about doing 0-60 in 3.9, but...with a car that size, you do want to feel confident when merging into flowing traffic on a highway, or knowing that you're capable of passing at highway speeds...even with 5 passengers and a load in the trunk. 197 hp would be fine in the likes of a Civic, Elantra or Corolla as they are much lighter.
yes it would
IF the particular engine we are talking about here didn't have to pull 5200 rpm to get that 197hp. The GM 3.8 at 5200 is not the same animal at 5200rpm as many of the other engines here are at well over 6000. 'Defending' the 3.8 is amusing - heck even GM seems to understand that it has no place under the hoods of 'real' cars.
Not true. Flint used to be the home of Buick, and at one time the massive Buick complex employed tens of thousands. Everything that was there is now gone except for the previously mentioned 3800 plant, and an axle plant. Total employees now - less than a couple thousand. This county ( Genesee ) during GM's heyday employed close to 200,000 while GM owned over 50% marketshare. Total county GM employment is now less than 10,000 and headed down - along with their marketshare, which is now about 26%.
GM does not guarantee " jobs for life ", and provides the UAW with a list of plants it will close during a contract period. That list has seen the closing of, on average, about 4 plants per year for the past 10 or 15 years. They have divested themselves of Delphi which once had its World Headquarters here - they're leveling the Delphi complex this week.
GMs goal, IMO, is to get rid of all plants except engine and final assembly. There's no money in metal stamping, interiors, electrical systems, etc., and they prefer to outsource that work.
The huge volume of buyouts that they ( and Ford ) have offered in the past 3 or 4 years have enabled them to hire new workers at half the wages with no pension.
Sorry about going off topic, but there is a conception that the UAW is resposible for GMs problems, and it's not true. Offer a World Class product that people want, and they'll buy it.
Why go to the expense of adapting that plant for the 3.6, which is already in short supply, only to redo the car in a year or two?
I wonder, also, how the 3.6 engine would work in a 4000 pound car? It has much less torque than the Northstar - an engine/car combo that modern V6 cars in this segment will run circles around. Would you describe your heavy SUV with that engine, as " frisky "?
The Northstar, by the way (in the SRX anyway) is kicking out 320 hp w/315 lb-ft of torque and weighs almost 500 lbs less than the Outlook. It's no wonder it would be more frisky in a similar type of vehicle. Heck, even the 3.6 that's in the SRX is only kicking out 255 hp w/254 lb-ft of torque would feel more frisky since it weighs over 700 lbs less than the Outlook.
The difference is...the SRX designed function is more towards performance and the Outlook's design leans more towards function.
quite well I think, its called the CTS and seems to work well in base and direct injected form.
Okay, okay...enough about the Outlook, gotta get back on topic.
I'm sure he is right.
It ought to be dependable after decades of production.
High torque.
Lowest-in-class torque (227) AND horses (197), I believe. Where'd you get "high torque?"
Take it from someone who owned the previous generation Avalon. Night and day! Also, if you consider what Buick is doing lately with the "super" line they are trying to change their image considerably.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'd liek to add that the 3.8 has plenty of power to get up hills and such. It's the *transmission* that is making it sound like it's struggling. In reality, you can rev that 3.8 all the way up to 5K RPM without hurting it at all.
And revved to 4K rpm, it moves. Sound like it's going to break doing it, but you just have to learn to ignore its whining about having to work for a living.
I am so glad you said it... because otherwise I would have! One thing about the 3.8 4 speed powertrain is as other posters have mentioned on the highway @ 70 mph or so 4th gear is so tall (for FE) that it constantly downshifts to 3rd on moderate hills or just to go up a few MPH. My 98 Olds 88 did this and so did the '06 Lucerne I drove. Does it make its torque at a lower RPM than the 2 GR or VQ yes, is it reliable and cheap to fix? Yes... is it competitve any longer (even compared to other GM engines) No!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'd take the Buick, but to tell the truth neither of them is in the same class as a Grand Marquis - I much prefer old school simplicity for my 10-15 year ownership experience.
Torque curves are relatively flat until they drop off at high RPM, so just because the torque peak on the GM 3800 is at a lower RPM than the hi-tech V6s, doesn't mean it has better low end torque than they.
Let's see, 227lb-ft @ 3800RPM for the Lucerne, versus 257 @ 4500RPM for an Azera, for example. I would venture to say the Azera still has 95% of its max torque down at 3800RPM, doing the math yields an estimate of around 245lb-ft @3800 for the Azera. That is still 20 more than the Buick.
The most significant factors in torque production are displacement and compression ratio, and since the Azera 3.8 has the same displacement and higher compression ( plus CVVT which changes the cam timing to optimize torque ), it will produce more torque than the GM 3800 - at any RPM. There's no magic here.
Referencing my earlier post explaining the relationship between HP and torque what you come up to explain not only a marginal amount of torque but also a serious HP deficiency is the inability to accumulate engine speed (rev).
This is only natural once you understand that the 3.8 started out life as a cast iron 90 degree V8 some 50 years ago, and remains a comparative meat grinder largely because of this. With the notable exception of VW narrow (15d) V6, a little research will yield that all the better V6s properly orient their cylinder banks 60 degrees apart - indeed as GMs own 3.5, 3.6 and 3.9 liter engines do - it is ONLY the 50 year old 3.8 that has been ignoring the laws of physics and paying the price of being the naturally imbalanced 90d V6 that it is. As you say there is no magic here, just an engine that never was what it should have been.
The Hyundia Azera seems to be either a love or hate vehicle. Several reports claim Hyundia is really getting their act together to truly compete against the other automobile manufactors, and the warranty is the best out there. Then I check out intellichoice.com and it shows the Azera with a poor value rating, and the Taurus has an above average value rating. Wish I hadn't stopped to look at the Azera this morning, it is a sweet looking and riding automobile.
Good luck with your decision...just make a list of pros vs. cons and see which list has more pros and less cons. If they are even, then flip a coin! Just joking...the warranty is great with the Hyundai, but it's really only an issue if it's a car you plan on holding on to for a long time, if not...don't weight the warranty into the equation.