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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison



  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,409
    " certainly wouldn't want to swap my Azera for a pathetic Charger/Magnum/300 with the 3.5"

    The only thing that the Chrysler cars have going for them is the fact they are RWD and look different from everything else. Oh... and the HEMI. Big deal, in the days of $3 per gallon gas the slightly better performance just isn't worth the FE penalty. Now if your talking the SRT versions obviously FE isn't a concern. The 3.5 V6 is OK, but like you I certainly wouldn't take it over an Azera or my Avalon.

    " the Amercican V-6's just don't compete with the foreign V-6's"

    The GM 3.6 and the Ford 3.5 are getting close. The power is just about there, just lacking some refinement.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Don't really know if RWD is a consideration of something they have going for themselves. I mean...the foreign entries have always been FWD and it's never been an issue. IMO, for the American V-6's to be so lacking...RWD really amounts to a hill of beans.

    The Hemi...obviously, if I'm jumping out there to get one of those...FE be damned! I'm getting it strictly for it's performance attributes.

    Yeah...there are a couple of American entries that are getting close, but cigar. The best one right now is the GM entry that's in the Saturn Aura and the new Chevy Malibu. Then...won't that make the one that's in the Impala a joke??? Then, of course...there's the one that's going to be in the upcoming Pontiac G8 and the best one will probably be the one powering the '08 Cadillac CTS (304 hp).
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    Before you speak you should know what yout talking about.My Charger has the Mercedes 5 speed.I think a second slower is also a wrong statement.And as I said before the Azera wasn't on my mind when I had the Duals put on.After reading the Azera forums,I wouldn't drive to fast,the front shocks might fall off.I feel sorry for all Azera owners who have a '06/07 Azera.You bought a car with a engineering defect,or they wouldn't have to redesign the front suspension.If you look at the rating now it seems that the Azera is falling off.9.4 to the Charger's 9.8.People are realizing the Azera isn't all that.This forum is about differant models,yet all I hear hear is Azera this,Azera that.Well After reading all the problems the Azera has,your car isn't what its cracked up to be.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    To all: things are getting a bit too insulting in here. Let's be careful to remember that we are all here to express opinions. No one person's opinion is correct, and no one person's opinion is incorrect. We're all entitled to make our own assessment of each of these vehicles based on our own set of priorities. We are ALL fortunate to have so many wonderful vehicles available from which to choose.

    IOW, let's get out of each other's faces, please.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    You are not reading my previous post right. What I said was:

    with the type of car Charger is and given it's size and weight, any V6 under 300HP and V8 under 350HP is unacceptable.

    Charger is intended to be sporty and emphasizing on performance due to its RWD setup. Azera on the other hand is FWD and is intended to be a comfortable, luxury, yet powerful highway cruiser. Two different kind of cars, the only similarity between them is that they belong in the same EPA size category. Given that I think 263HP for the Azera is adequate and more than enough. However, for Charge it needs at least 300HP IMO to live up to the potential.

    Also, Charger being the sporty one but is 13HP less and 200 lbs more is another big no no in my book.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Gee, and I thought people were upset when I said I had gone up to 140MPH with my Azera just to test it. Glad there wasn't a Charger next to me (particularly a police model ;) ).

    It sometimes surprises me how some get the impression that every 07 Azera (forgetting about the 06 for a moment) is assumed to have some type of front end suspension issue. Sorry to disillusion some of you, but mine (an 11/06 purchase) has never had any type of suspension or other problem, and none of the Azera owners I have actually spoken with has had that type of problem.
  • allmet33allmet33 Posts: 3,557
    Okay, so what it has a Merceds 5 speed, it's still a Dodge 3.5. Nobody said you were thinking about the Azera when you put your exhaust system on. Again, YOU are the one that made the statment that putting the Borla exhaust system on made your Charger equal to the Azera. You said it, nobody else did. So don't get upset when folks jump on that piece of information and point out your Charger's shortcoming when directly compared to a stock Azera. *snicker*

    As far as driving the Azera fast...again, YOU are the one underestimating here. I've driven my Azera at 120+ mph with NO problems at all. There is no fear of front struts falling off. The ony issue is a "clunk" noise that is heard over rough surfaces (on some Azeras...not all). Which could very well just be poor strut design. So be it.

    The Azera fell down to 9.4 from 9.8, however...look at the number of postings that are there, 3 reviews for the Charger and 70 for the Azera. Even with the terrible suspension problems that seem to exist...the rating is still above 9 whick still puts it in very good company. So what is your point?

    You're right, this forum is about different models, and we've discussed the likes of the Charger/300, Taurus/500, Lucerne, Avalon, Azera, Amanti, Maxima and Impala. I think you're just upset now to have someone tell you that your Charger isn't worth an Azera...that's all.

    If you look at the number of reviews for each model represented in the forum, that would give you a clear indication as to why you might just hear a little more about the Azera as it seems there are more Azera owners posting than the other ones. Which is par for the course because with no reviews on the Amanti, it has rarely come up in any topic.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    We just luv our Azzy's and pity to he/she that demeans them, lol. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    This 3.5 is not the same 3.5 when they first came out with the Intrepid,and Concorde,or LHS.This engine came out in '98 and been improved since
    I believe that the 2000 R/T version was the first year the 3.5 was available - earlier 'versions were 3.2s rated at about 220 hp.
    comparing specs. 2000 R/T 3.5 and current Charger 3.5 there sure doesn't appear to be any real difference. Both are 24 valve, sohc non vvt engines and share 250hp/250 lb. ft. ratings, even the 'tuned' versions that later appeared in things like the 300M were still within 5 hp or so of that '00 engine. I 'm not telling you it is not a decent effort particularily for a 'Detroit' mfgr, but I'm relatively sure any claim that Chrysler made that they improved anything on it is a lesson in 'GM speak' listening to them recount how many 'new' 3.8 liter engines they have produced over the last 50 years.
    If the Daimler folks had had any sense at the time they would have let Chrysler poach the MB 3.5 liter as well as those chassis and tranny pieces. Then the Charger would have a helluva (V6) powerplant, rivaling that of the Nissans and Toyotas.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Nobody said you were thinking about the Azera when you put your exhaust system on. Again, YOU are the one that made the statment that putting the Borla exhaust system on made your Charger equal to the Azera. You said it, nobody else did. So don't get upset when folks jump on that piece of information and point out your Charger's shortcoming when directly compared to a stock Azera.

    This was what I kept saying all along, allmet, but I just keep getting ignored and told I don't know how to read. It's probably best to just move on.

    Let me ask a question for a new topic and maybe move past this..

    What technology does the charger have in its engine (variable valve and cam timing, Variable Cylinder Management)? All I know is peak horsepower is down from the 300M that debuted in the 1990s. It was at the front of the class back then with a 253hp 3.5L V6, but now it seems just average, with cars like the Ford Taurus delivering 260+ through a 6-speed Auto, same true of Avalon and Passat etc...
  • My intent was to apply an apples to apples comparison. If the figures cited for the different vehicles are from the same source, they have used the same drag strip, starting technique, gasoline on board, driver weights, and corrections for temperature, altitude, and humidity. Your results may vary.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Grad- I think the answer to your question is that the Chrysler 3.5 (and variants) was a competitive engine in its time and was one of Chrysler's first sojourns into overhead cams, multiple exhaust and intake valves, and aluminum. As such it was and still is very similar to the Ford Duratech which was also competitive in its day.(we're talking the early middle 90s here). But things that are more current these days like VCM , CVVTi, and even a real VVT are lacking then and now. Maybe somebody who is more in tune with Mopar's antics can fill in some of the blanks?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    And most important, where is Mopar's direct injection?
  • Sorry, I didn't realize you had the 5-speed trans and the AWD that goes with it. Woops, add another couple hundred pounds making it close to 400 pounds heavier than the Azera.
    Since when is it a virtue to have a larger car on the outside as you stated in a previous post? Larger outside, but smaller inside than the Azera - and that's a plus?
    I wish I had an Azera interior to go with an exterior the size of a Mini Cooper, then I could store more stuff in my garage.
    As far as the Azera suspension problems, mine has the "clunk", which is a somewhat hollow sound over low speed washboard roads. Big deal. I don't find the suspension dangerous in any way at all, and it isn't even worthy of my taking it to the dealer to get new struts ( which would be covered under warranty ).
    The suspension is good enough to underpin a car that is capable of close to 150 MPH: no governor like on your Charger to save you from overheating your non-HO tires.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The Jeep with the Hemi gets dismal gas mileage in anything but downhill going with the wind, I would suspect nothing less with the Charger. I'll give it 2 mpg more. But I do not believe in heavy stop and go mixed driving a 5.7 L engine is going to pull 21 mpg. Even fuel efficient 4 cylinders will get that type of low mileage. in heavy traffic situations.
  • Cobrazera..

    I just wanted to respond to your post and let ya know that its worth a couple-hour (if that) trip at the dealer to have the struts replaced. After driving a few thousand miles on the new ones (replaced free of charge) I find the car a lot quieter AND it feels a bit more connected to the road. Nothing negative about getting them changed so I wanted to encourage you to do so. Im very happy with the results.


    Someone mentioned that the Azera is not a high performance engine but the 3.5 in the Charger is, because the 3.8 has less torque than HP (although I think it has more torque than the Charger anyway). It is not just the torque figure that determines how fast a car have to take into consideration how quickly the engine revs, peak hp, gearing, etc etc etc. So whoever was saying that about the 3.5 being "HO" and the 3.8 in the Azera is simply incorrect in that assumption. Plus, I have a pretty good feeling that the 3.5 in the Charger (and Pacifica,etc was rated at 250HP using the old standard for rating HP. If you look at that same engine in a NEW car with the NEW standard, (the new Avenger) it is only making 235 HP. The Azera since it was new in 06 was tested using the new standards. Why does the Azera have more power? More displacement, more modern (Variable valve timing) etc.

    Basically its no contest!
  • Thanks for the advice on the suspension fix. Sounds like it's worthwhile.

    The responder who calls the Dodge 3.5 " HO " does so because that's what Dodge itself calls it in their ads. If having equal or more torque than HP is the criteria for HO, then the GM 3800 pushrod engine is HO. LOL
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,409
    It is called the "HO" 3.5 because there are 2 varients of the Chrysler 3.5 one that makes 234/241 and the HO version is 255/250. I do not know what they did to increase power on the HO version. What is so wierd about these engines are that they are SOHC but still 4 valve/cylinder.

    The 3800 is HO (back in 1990!!)
    Admitted cheap shot... had to do it!

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The responder who calls the Dodge 3.5 " HO " does so because that's what Dodge itself calls it in their ads. If having equal or more torque than HP is the criteria for HO, then the GM 3800 pushrod engine is HO. LOL

    So is my 1996 Accord, with 139 lb-ft and 130 hp. :)

    Who knew it was a hot rod?!?!?

    Just kidding, just kidding.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Posts: 309
    Hey, if an owner wants to call his Chrysler a HO, I think we should respect his decision.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731

    After multiple posts asking him questions about some posts he made, which contradicted themselves, in a non-threatening, non-sarcastic tone (you can check them out, I think i was pretty objective) and getting told I don't know how to read, I have no respect there whatsoever because I have gotten nothing but middle-school-style disrespect from the poster.

    So, if I want to call my not-so-fast 130 horse Accord HO, I think I will. :) I'm not claiming it to be as fast as an Azera, but I think I'll call it the High Output Super Fantastic 16 Valve PowerDrive SOHC Quad-Cylinder Ultra-Deluxe Engine. :D

    Too much? :)

    Back to the fullsizers...

    Any new Taurus or Sable owners with anything to report?
  • bobber1bobber1 Posts: 217
    Yeah. I got a 2008 Taurus about a month back. I've got 2,500 miles on the car and really think it's one of the best vehicles I've ever owned. The engines got a bit of growl, but good power and once you get on the open road and in high gear, it's one of the quietest cars I've been in. It handles and corners well.

    Love all the room in the trunk and back seats. Driver controls are well laid out. Scores higher then anybody else is safety ratings which is important for my young family.

    The 08 Taurus has an almost European feel to it and is a big improvement over previous models.
  • dborthdborth Posts: 474
    re 3634: the HO version is 255/250. I do not know what they did to increase power on the HO version.

    In the case of 300M's, the extra 5hp was a result of dual exhaust.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,409
    I should have been more clear but the 255/250 is HP/Torque as compared to the "other" 3.5's HP/Torque rating. I do remember the "special" 300M with the 5 HP increase. What a joke that was. However, I like that car much more than the current series.

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    This is the cars that Hyundai claims that you should be comparing your Azera to.I all ready proved that the Azera can't compare to the Charger.The Charger has better trade in value,better retail value,as well more popularity to the Azera.I think I saw maybe 3 Azera in a year compared to about 5 to6 Chargers every time I go out.The Badge on the side of my car says 3.5 HO.Its not my fault thats what it says.It is a high output ,and I did not say if your torque is better then the HP that its a HO engine,it takes more then that to be HO,just like the Mustang HO engine is not the same as their non HO.You call the Azera a luxury car,yet you compared it to the Charger SE which is the bottom trim line ,while your AZ is the top of the line,yet the Charger still beat you in value.So I think you should try to compete with Hyundai says you should,but My opinion says you will lose again.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd be interested in seeing some press or literature from Hyundai where they claim you should not compare to the Charger, and list the Maxima and Avalon as competitors.

    I believe that they all compete since they are in the same price class and size class. You mention popularity and how you see 5 or 6 on the road everytime you are out... I'd bet a large percent of those are rentals. They sure are around here - V6 Chargers, 300s, and Magnums are rampant on Enterprise lots. They are in Oklahoma City as well, not just here in Birmingham. I'm willing to be this is the case over large parts of the country. Fleet sales hurt resale - just look at the outgoing Dodge Stratus.

    I all ready proved that the Azera can't compare to the Charger.

    I think you only proved it to yourself. If others were as convinced as you were, this discussion would be dead by now. If you think the Azera and Charger can't compete, then why participate in this discussion?
  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    Because its says so on top.I don't think the Azera should be on here,I don't call it a full size car.The bubble top on it is the only way they could get the EPA to classify it as full size.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you call a tenth of an inch of legroom combined F/R difference between the two enough to merit one a class size different, that's your perogative. Personally, I wouldn't. The EPA and Edmunds tend to agree. You're wrong about the 'bubble top' being the "only way" it qualifies. It only makes the Azera have a solid inch or two more headroom inside than the chop-top Charger.

    In fact, the EPA calls the Azera's smaller brother, the Sonata, a full-size car as well.
  • tjc78tjc78 JerseyPosts: 6,409
    If you can compare the Azera to the Max or Avalon you most certainly can compare it to the Charger. As others have said.. same class and pricing. Actually, whats funny is, when comparing the Charger to any of the 3 it comes out on the bottom! The interior is awful and V6 power at the lowest of the group (downright dismal without the 3.5) Frankly, unless you get the SRT version the car is just an also ran.

    P.S. Watch the resale value in about a year when the thousands of them with little "E"s on the back go into the market place

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra

  • xtecxtec Posts: 354
    THe Azera should be compared to the Charger R/T.It has the basic standard equipment and is the top of the line for Charger.You know you cant compete,so you use a lesser trim level to compare it to so it looks good when you compare the two.Yet the charger still wins.The Charger is a sport sedan which the Azera is far from being .The Azera is a Family sedan.You look at the Maxima and the roof line is close to the Charger.I like the Maxima very much,if I wasn't a true Mopar man,I would look at the MAX.Thats the style I like,and thats why the Azera does nothing for me,its bland looking to me.Thats why there is so many cars on the Market.Everyone has differant taste.Now go and Compare the Azera to the Max and AV and ill sit back and enjoy the show.
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