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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    'wrong' is a poor word to use here.
    It ultimately comes down to personal preferences and priorities. If a large trunk and/or AWD for example outweigh other things then the Taurus could quite easily be a 'right' choice, if the power and feel of a Detroit V8 is paramount, then why not a Charger/300C,G8,Impala SS. Etc., etc, etc. Styling issues are usually quite subjective, but also can be THE deciding factor in some decisions. We could go on and on. The point is that each of these cars usually has something different to offer and how each of us values these distinctions (or lack of them) that makes for a decision that can't be 'wrong'.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Indeed, I agree wholeheartedly!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I've driven a Cadillac DTS with the Northstar V8 and 4-speed, and a STS with the Northstar and 6-speed and I found the 4 speed to be a better match for that engine for just that reason.

    Drive a Lucerne CXS. Same engine and transmission combination, IIRC. That 4 speed works beautifully when you have a giant V8 throwing gobs of torque its way.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    There's no doubt the Azera has a steeper level of depreciation than the Avalon - no argument on that point from me. However, what you save up front does count. The rebates offered by anyone, including Hyundai, does certainly have a historical impact on resale and depreciation. Hyundai simply offers a higher level of up front incentives than Toyota.

    At a Chicagoland Hyundai dealership, I received a quote 2 weeks ago for a 2008 Azera Limited with the Ultimate Package, MSRP $30.495 for $24,250 which included all applicable rebates, dealer incentives, the dealership discounting, and a $500 discount coupon I received directly from Hyundai. This figure does not include Tax, Title, and License of course, but a 2008 Azera Limited for less than $25K is a lot of car for that amount of money.

    And, that was not some bait-and-switch verbal quote that would change when I showed up at the dealer, rather a written and firm quote from a salesperson I've dealt with before. Compare that to what you'd have to pay for an Avalon for the same level of amenities, and one is still ahead of the game, especially if the car is kept for a reasonable period of time.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Hyundai advertisements heard recently heard on radio were offering $6500 off MSRP for any Azera in stock. For $30K-$6500=$23.5 it's something even I would have to consider. For whatever reason, this price point is needed to sell these cars. For $23.5K I would "take my chances" and throw my past perceptions away.
  • ronsmith38ronsmith38 Member Posts: 228
    Local Ford dealer is also offering $6500 off MSRP on the Taurus models in stock.They advertise 46 units in stock.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    I don't think you'd have to worry about "taking your chances." The Azera is a solid and reliable car, even CR says so.

    After spending a week in a 2008 Azera Hertz rental, and comparing it to my uncle's Avalon in which I've had a lot of seat time, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Azera. I averaged 28MPG on a 1,600 mile trip, combined city and highway driving over a period of a week. Its exterior and interior fit and finish were equal to my uncle's Avalon, and overall was simply a very nice car. For anything near $25K, an Azera Limited Ultimate is simply a steal. With the 3.8L Lambda engine, I don't think it will take a back seat to any car in terms of long-term reliability either. Once Hyundai overcomes perceptions of those less well-informed consumers, all manufacturers need to worry, including well-respected Honda and Toyota.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I don't think you'd have to worry about "taking your chances." The Azera is a solid and reliable car, even CR says so.

    That's where the rub is, I have a certain trepidation toward the product. Everyone has their own bias. You can't call the call buying public less informed, well you can but, you can call anyone anyname I suppose. People buy what they buy for their own reason.
  • carguy70carguy70 Member Posts: 10
    Just bought my Azera (used, 15k miles, limted w/XM, for under 20 grand out the door) Drove Maxima, Avalon, Lucerne, STS, Impala SS and LTZ, you name it, I've driven it..) For the money and warranty (5-60k transfers) none of those other cars stood up the Azera. I find it very quiet when driving, the infinity audio is great and it has great mid-range power when passing. Controls are very logical. This is my first Korean car and I have to say, the Azera blogs on this website really talked me in to giving this car a shot. Those other owners love this car and there is a lot to be said for that. So far I am very pleased with my purchase and I really like not having the same car as everyone else on the road.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    That 4 speed works beautifully when you have a giant V8 throwing gobs of torque its way
    That it may - but it is NOT because the engine is a V8, or FTM that it is any different than most of these V6s (except in gas consumption) - the Northstar, while it may be a fine engine, is similar to the better V6s in this group in that its torque/hp delivery characteristics are really not substantially different (same higher engine speeds). Bottom line if you are going to presume that the Nissan/Hyundai/Toyota V6s would have some sort of problem with an old fashioned 4 speed AT then so would the Northstar.
    Consider the Northstar more of like one of these V6s with a cylinder added to each bank - but it certainly isn't throwing 'gobs of torque' anywhere and certainly not relative to the other V8s in this group.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I don't think it will take a back seat to any car in terms of long-term reliability either
    the 07 Azera was downgraded by CR to 'merely' average reliabilties in their latest 08 Auto issue - both the Avalon, the the Lucerne V8 are rated higher (and improving) - this after the 06 Azera rated quite well. A disturbing trend IMO - truly 'new' cars like the Azera ought to improve with age not the other way around. The Sonata is doing very well but Hyundai's other products are unremarkable at best. All something that would indicate to me that the 'jury is still out' and perhaps just a bit early to declare folks that don't know about Hyundais current crop of products ' less well informed'.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    For $30K-$6500=$23.5 it's something even I would have to consider
    Agreed, although I will have to resign myself to keeping the car a while longer than usual. $6500 off a $30k car while it sounds great, does nothing for those of us that tend to drive something different every 3 or 4 years and hurts those who did pay a little more 'reasonable' $26k for the car even more.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    That's where the rub is, I have a certain trepidation toward the product

    You and many others... this is the reason why the Azera struggles to sell and the reason the other "expensive" Hyundai soon to arrive could be in trouble. Perceptions are tough to change, not much different than many people having a tough time going back to the domesics.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    this after the 06 Azera rated quite well

    My guess would be an extremely small sample size. IIRC weren't Azeras few and far between in their first year?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    Consider the Northstar more of like one of these V6s with a cylinder added to each bank

    With the added benefit of more fuel consumption, more noise, same HP and a little extra torque. ;)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    although I'm sure that some of the 'H' guys that frequent this site will regard my post as some sort of 'attack' on Hyundai (and the Azera) that is NOT the intent -
    the intent really to inject a little realism where we don't see much.
    CR gets over a million survey responses every year - it would seem to me that they might have been able to get a good 'handle' on the 06 Azera despite it being a realtively low volume automobile compared to some of the other cars in this group.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...nothing to worry, I didn't view your posting as an attack...merely information that is very correct.

    This is one of the very few times it seems buying the first model year was the better move to make! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I have a very early (#4000) 05 Avalon that did have some 'teething' problems (an incorrectly welded steering column and an oil leak from a poorly designed camshaft cover) These kind of things given it was a totally new car and more specifically engine is IMO things that are likely to happen - even to Toyota. Other vehicles - like the Lucerne , for example, should not have a whole lot of these kind of things simply because the car (DTS) and the engine (Northstar) have been around for years. The apparent fact that the Azera is a totally new design as well and did so well in its first year is an achievement for Hyundai (tjc may be right in his sample size thoughts) , but still begs the question as to why in the subsequent MYs the car seems to be getting worse.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I would agree with you, the question is...what exactly are the problems that folks are having with the cars. I mean...from a reliability stand point...I haven't heard anyone posting that their Azera (any model year) simply crapped out on them. The biggest issue to date out of any model year was the notorious front end suspension "clunk" that seemed to plague the later '06 models. So what exactly is being pointed to that caused reliability ratings to drop for the Azera???

    Not sure what some folks list as reliabilty issues either. I can say I've had some minor issues, but nothing worth complaining about and it was more about quality than reliability. Stuff like the faux wood trim chipping on the steering wheel, hood release lever cable snapping and a defective seat-belt sensor causing my air bag light to come on. Oh...and the dash clock where only the top half of the numbers were illuminated. However...none of these things were issues that took my car off the road or required me to leave my car at the dealer overnight. In my opinion...very minor issues that I can actually live with. Especially since the dealer took care of them with no question or hassle.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    allmet - if you read up on CRs reliability ratings the actual quanitative (no. of problems) differences is very small - by category. I think the actual judgement (better than average/average/worse than average) is made by a consideration of a total number of reported complaints as opposed to necessarily a specific area.

    I mentioned the Avalon oil leak which as I said was a poorly designed camshaft cover/oil transfer tube on the top of the engine - something I believe 'bite' several 05 Avalon buyers, but is accurately reflected in CRs 05 MY 'engine minor' category with a big ole black circle - as it should. The rest of the car though has been rock solid enough that the overall reliability stay high - something I can testify to. I do not know obviously if the reason for CRs rating change on the Azera is anything specific though or simply an accumulation of some less frequent problems.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Its all about perception, I think.

    For you, the problems you have had strike you as minor, as you correctly stated that none of them had left you stranded.

    However, if you look at it from a different angle...

    Steering wheel chipped...trip to the dealer for repair

    Hood release cable...trip to the dealer

    Seat-belt sensor...trip to the dealer

    Clock malfunctions...trip to the dealer

    If you can reasonably assume that each trip consumed a day, and someone had to arrange substitute transportation each time, then you can see how some might feel a bit different about reliability issues.

    Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting anything here, other than things like this are like "beauty"...its all in the eye of the beholder.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...that again could be where I don't have the issue. Any time I've taken my car to the dealer to have something taken care of...it hasn't consumed a whole day. As a matter of fact...once the car goes in, usually about an hour at the most.

    No subsitute transportation was needed. If anything, I would take a couple hours off from my job, get to the dealership first thing in the morning and be one of the first ones seen. I'm usually at work before breakfast hours are over.

    Then again, I can see the issue when the dealership isn't merely a few minutes away. In my case...I can drive 20 mins. to the dealer and then it's only a 10 min. drive to my office.

    I also don't mind a break in my schedule to have an excuse to come in a little late.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    I guess everyone is different. I lease my cars (3 years) and expect to not be back to the dealer except for service. My Avalon has been to the dealer 4 times in 20K miles and two years for oil/change and rotations. If I added four additional trips for the things you mentioned I would not be too happy. FWIW the dealer is walking distance to my house and I have a second vehicle. No matter how small amount of time the repairs take it still took productive time away from your day..

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I know what you mean. I'm in need of an oil change and a timing belt replacement in the older of my two cars (it has 180k miles). I'm trying to figure out when I'll have time to drop it off and get it done. Looks like it'll be the month of May before it happens.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I guess I'm different, I don't force myself to be productive every minute of every day. I like to stop and smell the roses and enjoy life too. So...going in a little late, I get to miss the rush hour traffic. Win-win! ;)
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    I don't force myself to be productive every minute of every day

    Neither do I.... Unless my contributions to these forums are considered productive! ;)

    I think you see my point though, right?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...any positive information that can help someone else...IS productive.

    Honestly...I don't see your point, if it needs to get done, make the time and get it done.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    Of course you have to get it done. My point is no matter how minor the problem is, it still takes up your time. I really wouldn't be happy if my Avalon had the issues your Azera had. Would it make me not buy another Yota? Probably not, its just a pain in the butt.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Getting an oil change takes up time, right? However, having to deal with car repairs (minor or major) is a part of car ownership. You just hope it's minimized as much as possible. I would look at the issues as a pain in the butt if I were dealing with a service department that made everything such a hassle or gave me poor customer service. Neither on both accounts, so I actually don't mind the trip up there. Besides, it gives me an opportunity to check out any new cars that might have come in since my last visit.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Besides, it gives me an opportunity to check out any new cars that might have come in since my last visit.
    Now THAT would be a dangerous thing to do - to your check book! ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    That's the sadist side of me! :D

    It is how I ended up in my Azera though. Took the Sonata in to get the spark plugs done, alignment and transmission flush and fill. Saw the Azera on the showroom floor and that's all she wrote! :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Surprised your wife lets you take the car in for service anymore!
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...she is dreading the release of the Genesis. However, I have told her the hardest thing right now is that I don't want to give up a car that's paid for and still under warranty for a new car that would come along with a car note. Besides, I think I'll wait and see if they bring the Genesis out with AWD. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My dad this from a 90 Accord LX... went for an oil change, came home in a 92 "Rosewood Brown" EX Accord. He hadn't signed anything, but told mom "if you want it, let's get it."

    They bought it that day. My aunt did the same with her '97 CR-V EX to her '00 Odyssey EX. I was with her at the time, and showed her the cool "new" power doors on the Odyssey. She bought her gold EX Odyssey that day.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a coupla good examples why that despite plans many folks have 'to keep a car until the wheels fall off' that they don't, and why statistics show instead things like 4 year trade outs - even excluding the influence of the shorter time frames involved in leasing.
    Would guess that a dealer salesperson assigned just to follow folks around that happen to be at the service dept. would do quite well for him/herself. Aaah, the allure of things that are shiny!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    Would guess that a dealer salesperson assigned just to follow folks around that happen to be at the service dept

    I have read in "stories from the sales frontlines" that some the sales people do in fact walk the service lane to see if any of their customers are there. It makes perfect sense, you don't always think of a new car when yours is running perfect and not costing you money.

    even excluding the influence of the shorter time frames involved in leasing

    I absolutely love leasing. I know many people disagree with it, but the fact that I can get into a new vehicle every three years is great. I never put brakes, tires, tranny flushes etc, or have to worry about selling or trading in a car. Considering I only put 10K a year on it just works for me.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Your situation is the perfect reason someone would want to lease as opposed to buying a car.

    With the mileage I put on a car :blush: , leasing would never be an option for me.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    Yeah, if I was ever to change jobs and have a long commute I guess I would have to change my thinking.

    Its hard to believe I am in the last year with my Avalon. If I had to pick my next one now I would say its a toss up between the new Max and Genesis. Both will be readily available by the time I am ready to lease my next one. However, if neither impresses me I don't know what to do. Decisions, decisions... I guess I could always get another Avalon, but then thats six years with basically the same car, unacceptable!

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...6 years in the same car would just mean you really like that car! ;)

    As it stands, the longest I've been in one car is 4 years. My desire is to stay in my Azera for longer than that. We'll see.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I absolutely love leasing. I know many people disagree with it
    sure does keep your monthly out-of-pocket to a minimum. As you drive 10k/year it obviously can work for you - I drive closer to 25k - and although I can get a lease written for that - it quickly becomes too expensive. Have always thought that these 'program cars' coming off leases should be a good deal as well, low mileage and usually very well maintained simply because of the constraints within the lease itself.
    Interestingly TCO numbers on a purchase and lease costs tend to run together - cars that happen to have high resale values (and lower TCOs) also tend to be less expensive to lease.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    always thought that these 'program cars' coming off leases should be a good deal as well

    We actually have a place up here in Jersey called "Auto Lenders" that only sells off lease vehicles it buys from the banks. I don't know if they are in other parts of the country or not.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    would just mean you really like that car

    Believe me I do! Whatever I look at must have similar power and FE. There is no going back!

    P.S. better stay away from the dealer when the Genesis arrives... you know you want one :)

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...if you look at it from that perspective, then being in the same car for 6 years actually IS acceptable! ;)

    Oh...I DEFINITELY plan on taking one for a test spin. I do want one, but right now the voice of reason and logic is heavy in my ear. Now...should I get an early promotion at the job...that could very well change! :D
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think leasing has proven to be of great benefit to those manufacturers of premium cars - effectively allowing many to lease cars they otherwise couldn't afford to purchase. It is kinda amusing though, all those BMWs that 'belong' to some twenty something year old owner, that couldn't afford the grand a month or so it would take to buy one - but don't have nearly the problem with a $500 lease payment.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Not sure if it's available elsewhere, but here in the DC area...there are some places with 12 year financing options when it comes to some vehicles that are rather pricey. The scary thing is...there's a lot of folks taking that option. Personally, I couldn't want a vehicle that bad that I would sign something saying I'll pay on it for 12 years!!!
  • mjolnirmjolnir Member Posts: 2
    The Cadillac DTS with the Northstar has 16% more torque than an ES350, 7% more than a GS350, 19% more than an Avalon Limited, 15% more than an Azera Limited, 19% more than an Accord EX, 14% more than an Altima 3.5 SL, 15% more than an Acura RL, 10% more than a G35, and 17% more than a Maxima.

    I think it's fair to say that except for a few high-end Euros like the 335, XF, and E Class the Northstar in the DTS has "gobs" more torque than most import V6 sedans.

    It may not compete with the V8s, but it handles the sixes just fine.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    12 years? Now that makes no sense. If the average car loses 20-25% (or more) of its value in its first year then you (and the lender) are 'upside down' on that loan pretty much as soon as you drive it off the lot - unless of course there is a horrendously large down payment . It's not so much that the cars can't last the 12 years, its more to the point of what the car is conceivably worth vs. what is owed on it during the course of the loan - or FTM what the insurance co will pay you for the car after it is totalled. Can't believe anybody would do this - on automobiles.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Torque certainly has to do with engine size and type - my point was that the engine types are ostensibly no different between say the Northstar and that 2GR in the ES350 you mention. Not only that - the Northstar is about 30% larger so it also produces a lot LESS torque per unit of engine volume not to mention that it also needs the same higher engine speeds to do it as those V6s.
    As far as V8s go it does not produce 'gobs of torque' simply because it is of the same DOHC design as those V6s. Not to diss the Northstar because it is likely one of the best V8s that 'Detroit' has ever produced - but if it is stump pulling torque you want then let's make the engine even bigger, add some pushrods, increase that 'stroke'. etc. and that will then get you that max torque down where you want it - all at the expense of FE which is where the even the Northstar doesn't handle the sixes 'just fine'.
    If GM can ever get around to replacing that tired old 3.8 in the Lucerne with their more contemporary and efficient HF3.6 there will be no reason for the Northstar anymore - especially in these days of $4 gas.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    If you factor in all the extra weight that additional torque in the DTS/Northstar must pull around, I think you'll find that the maximum torque per pound is no better than the V6 powered autos cited. The DTS weighs over 4000 pounds, while the V6 powered cars are 400-500 pounds lighter.
    Since the Northstar in the DTS does not have CVVT, like the V6s do, the torque spread is not as wide either.
    A railroad locomotive has " gobs " of torque, too, but lacks the ability to change speeds quickly.
  • rpfingstenrpfingsten Member Posts: 154
    Gentlemen: I don't profess to understand all that googlygook about engines and torque when comparing the northstar to the 6 banger in the avalon. But I can tell you this. A few years back I had a Deville with the Northstar. Never used anything in it except Mobil 1 Synthetic, never ran anything in the fuel tank except premium and never had it up over 80 mph. In other words, it was pampered. One day I jump in it to go to work and when I fire her up she starts vibrating and shaking like crazy. After the engine would run for about 4 or 5 minutes, it would smooth out. Took it to the Caddy dealer who told me it would take 3500 bucks to fix it. Thats when I traded her in on my 07 Avy. And I've got to tell you, the power plant in the Avy feels just as responsive if not more ( due to less weight ) than the Northstar. Also someone mentioned the 3.8 in the Lucerne. Had that same engine in an Oldsmobile Regency Elite. That's a tried and true engine that Gm employs, but at 197 hp, it needs to go. Around here on flat hiways it was fine, but whenever we would go up thru the hills of the ozarks, that poor engine was straining on just about every uphill climb.

    Roland
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