Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

tonycd

Two points, Captain:

1) After reading your post #5873 that basically blames the current Maxima's torque steer on every factor except solar flares, I was about to point out what you'd missed -- until you basically contradicted the implications of your post #5873 in post #5875, by acknowledging that the current Altima owes some of its torque steer reduction to that improved halfshaft geometry. That's the real reason why the current Maxima (built on the previous Altima) has more torque steer than the similarly sized, similarly powered Altima.

2) The '92 Maxima with the top engine had "serious torque steer issues"? Sir, as chance would have it, I own the 190-horsepower 1992 Nissan Maxima SE, which I bought new and have driven (with religious maintenance) for nearly 16 years. It absolutely does not have "serious torque steer issues." In fact, my wife's four-cylinder, four-wheel-drive '03 Honda CR-V has much more torque steer than my Maxima.

alexstore

IN my optinion New Maxima's exterior and interior have both been heavily borrowed from a car that we both like - M. Dash and Navigation placement look exactly like in M. With 290 HP ( nissan's own site) and unfortunately with CVT its one powerful sedan. Rear seats look like it will be a 4 passenger vehicle. All we need now is for someone to test it. My guess engine has a potential of 5.7-5.9 0-60. Not sure if CVT will allow this car to achieve these #s

tjc78

Nice look at the new Max on Nissan's website. Paddle shiffters on a CVT? I don't know why the heck Nissan is insisting on CVT for this car. However, at least you will be able to control it.

On some other notes, I like the interior and looks as the tech packages will be nice. But, why only 9.3GB for the music system? Hard drive space is cheap.

Notice the shifter is offset closer to the driver, (wonder where they got that from?)

Still no nod whether FWD or RWD.

allmet33

And yet...the newer Altima with 270 hp isn't causing folks to scream bloody murder over TS. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

captain2

Sir, as chance would have it, I own the 190-horsepower 1992 Nissan Maxima
well, then, you have a great car, I got almost 300k on mine before the tranny cratered at which point the $3500.00 to fix the tranny was more than the car was worth. The tranny failure BTW probably due to my own neglect.
However, if you don' think that car has some torque steer issues then I would respectfully suggest that you may not know what it is. It was worse then what it is in my wife's 03 Altima 10 years later, despite the extra 50hp - any test of older or recent Maximas and V6 Altimas will generally always mention this.
As far as the ability to 'engineer out' torque steer - sure it's been happening for years and the difference between the TS in the 92 Maxima vs. the same condition 11 years later in that Altima is a good example. I guess you must be hoping that Hyundai gets around to putting that pumped up 3.8 in the Azera - I would wager they won't and further would guess that they may compromise an otherwise good drivetrain if they do. The key word here is 'may' - but IMO 290 hp engines do not belong in FWD cars and logically the stronger the engine the worse the problem - but there is no 'magic number'- simply too many things that go into it.

If you really want to feel and 'fight' a little torque steer, go out and find a vintage Saab 9-3 Viggen, turbo 4 banger, and more of a handful than a Impala SS or any Nissan product ever thought of being. Or drive the current Aura XR, a little less of the same stuff.

You can as many HP as you want, BTW, and Hyundai may develop some sort of 'cure' that successfully hides all that a high school physics book would teach you - but something that still won't change: you'll still have 60% or your over the driven front wheels and the car will still be a plowing understeering nightmare. Not to worry though you might finally get a car that can 'outdrag' even that Impala. I hate to think that the evaluation of any car has sunk to the depths of how many HP it has - because it is only a small part of what a good car is - especially in this class.

captain2

as I said, it is because the CVT can be programmed to higher gears ratios relative to the throttle position. My wifes 03 Altima (or that '92 Max) doesn't have either the type of tranny or the electronically controlled throttle that would allow the Nissan engineers to successfully hide it.

captain2

TJC- think the CVT is 'programmed' to simulate gear changes hence 'justifying' the paddle shifter - something I find kinda amusing. The 290 hp doesn't surprise me, Nissan not known to lose the HP wars.

allmet33

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. The same can be employed with the new Maxima using the 3.7 tuned to about 285 hp. Again, is it the desired configuration...no. Would it work...yes. That...is all I'm saying.

tjc78

Never understood the need to "simulate" anything. If this vehicle is to be the "4DSC" again put in a regular auto. I just don't think the enthusiasts are going to be happy with it. Actually, I can already hear the auto mags bitching there is no manual transmission.

Having said that.... when Avy is ready to go back I will be test driving the Max and will try not to be so tunnel visioned with the CVT. I hated it in the 500, but that was with an anemic engine. Maybe, the "simulated" shifts along with the "manual" capabilities will be enough to overturn my aversion to CVT

Nissan not known to lose the HP wars.

Since they started the whole thing... it wouldn't be right for them to be at the back of the pack.

joe97

Not a pretty picture...

allmet33

that Nissan chose the later of my suggested possibilities and yet...exceeded the hp I thought they might (290 hp!!!) squeezing 20 more ponies out of the 3.5. The fact that they are employing the CVT would most likely indicate that it will be a FWD sedan as none of the RWD Infiniti sedans use CVT, right?

2009 Maxima Quick Specs

captain2

I think the real difficulty here is that - you have a different definition of what 'works'.

allmet33

There's no difficulty at all, I guess my definition is one that Nissan agrees with as well.

Like I said, I agree with you in that it isn't the desired configuration one would want to see in order for the Max to be a true sport sedan, but it is what it is and the only thing you can do about it complain about the TS, complain about the FWD and ultimately...not buy one. None of which, will stop Nissan from selling them.

captain2

hated it in the 500, but that was with an anemic engine
that would be an understatement - the problem is I'm not sure that the 3.5 isn't still, other than at least, now its producing a reasonable number of horses as it 'grinds' away.
This, IMO, is a major problem with CVTs, driving one - the computer interprets your intent (like how fast you want to accelerate) by how hard and fast you hit the accelerator and then will set a 'gear' (more properly a 'gear ratio' ) that will best accomplish what it thinks you intend. In actual practice, after you hit that accelerator, the engine will seemingly stay at some relatively high rpm while the gear ratios continually change behind it. The car seems to be continually 'catching up' and a very non traditional feeling. No rev up- shift/rev up-shift like we all grew up with. The reason I think it was such a tough sell in the 500 is because if you are going to use a CVT that you had better also have an engine that sounds (and feels) happy at those higher rev ranges. The VQ, OTH, is a great engine that IMO is beginning to gray slightly - in applications (like in the M, for example) where the engine is really asked (thru tranny gearing) to put out, it too starts to also feel a bit 'strained'. I worry about 290hp out of the VQ especially in combination with a CVT. The Maxima is, after all, the Nissan semi-lux flagship.We'll see.

allmet33

Which is why earlier I said that toning down the 3.7 and still going with the CVT would be a viable option that would probably be a happier pairing to give the driver more of what is being sought in your terms of having an engine that won't be too strained. I mean...the 3.7 is more thann capable of the 290 ponies that's being asked of the 3.5.

With the upgrade of the interior, the Max has definitely leaped into the semi-lux category along with the Avalon and Azera. I really do like the Infiniti-ish interior...it makes one want to be IN the car. Now the only problem would be seeing it in person to see if the exterior makes me feel the same way.

captain2

True, Nissan has been selling cars with some torque steer issues for years and years and doing quite well at it. There is a portion of the market (smile you're on candid camera) that buys HP regardless of what it does to small things like vehicle dynamics. You're right, Nissan certainly knows that, heck - they invented the idea .
Enough talk about TS, we'll just have to see if Nissan takes enough of the guts of the car away (see Acura TL-S) so that the problem isn't too severe. As much of a Nissan fan as I am, I'm willing to bet that the new Maxima falls short in its '4DSC' revival though - simply because there is a bunch more to a 'sports coupe' than simply being able to get to 60 in something less than 6 seconds.

captain2

the Infinitis (and Zs) have been getting 280 hp+ out of the 3.5 for quite a few years - many times a bigger engine is NOT and/or more HP isn't the solution to anything.

allmet33

I am pretty sure that with today's want for power and the market's need for FWD sedans...a line will have to be drawn. Where the Max may lack when compared to past models, it truly shines when it comes to the upgrades to the interior. I honestly have to say...this is one interior that I'm impressed with. Okay, okay...I know I've said it on about every post I've put up since seeing the online pics.

I can see the new Max pushin 0-60 in the low 6's, don't see it breaking the 6 second mark, ultimately...it has too many luxury appointments that add weight. As you've stated before, the CVT may not be the best way to put the power down on the pavement, so that could hurt it in terms of outright acceleration, as compared to if it had the same 290 hp coupled to it's current tranny.

I guess the one thing we have no choice on, is that we have to wait and see!

allmet33

Yes, but the difference is that the Z's and Infiniti cars are RWD, correct?

captain2

if the new Maxima gains enough weight to stop it from a 5.8 or 5.9 60 time - it won't be because of the 'added' doo-dads (look at the current Maxima's option list - it's not like you can't get whatever you want already) - it'll more likely be because the car is bigger than it is now - something more on par with the other cars in this class.

captain2

of course they are - as they should be.

allmet33

So...it would seem (outside of their sports car and trucks), Nissan is reserving RWD for it's luxury line of cars. If you want the performance of RWD, then one would have to step up and pay the money for an Infiniti. However, I hear that Hyundai will have a very nice alternative for those that want the performance of an M, but can only spend Maxima money....Genesis!!!

captain2

see, this is why styling issues are so subjective. Although the wraparoud headlight treatment is somehwat unusual - I think this car is gorgeous, especially the interior and rear 3/4 view.

tjc78

The Maxima is, after all, the Nissan semi-lux flagship.We'll see.

Judging by the interior I would say absolutely. The driving dynamic will most likely be more weighted to the sporty end than lux, but that is the case with most Nissans. I must say I am curious about other things such as FE, interior space and of course pricing. I would think this vehicle all loaded up may be only a tad under 40K.

As for the CVT and possible TS issues, the only way to find out is to wait until they hit the lots and drive one.

allmet33

You're right...what one man doesn't like, another man might love. Like I said...seeing it online...I'm not ga-ga over it, but seeing it in person might change my perception of it. The interior...well, THAT I'm in love with. I do love the lines of the car, very sleek with some sexy curves to it. The nose...well, that's the part that I'm on the fence about...that and the way the hood is integrated. From the back, it still carries the Maxima look though...I like how they managed to do that.

tncarman

I am really looking forward to the Pontiac G8. It seems like a great car, with all the power, handling capabilites, and comfort you could want. Plus the styling is great in my opinion.

Watch it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJC0nzzm4xk

(Great commercial too)

allmet33

The styling is the one thing that the critics are knocking the G8 on. Other than that...the performance aspect definitely receiving rave reviews. Those that like the G8 would more than likely also like the Charger (as discussed before).

I'll have to wait till I get home to view the clip on YouTube...firewall here blocks it.

captain2

the 300C/Charger I think you'll find almost have to be in SRT trim to keep up with what I've seen the G8 doing in tests (lower 5s), something that pushes the Chrysler products at (or close to) $40k, while the referenced G8 GT comes in at around $32k. Wonder what percentage of the imported G8s are scheduled to be the V6 instead of the V8. Performance notwithstanding, it'll be interesting to see how many 'HP freaks' that Pontiac can find in these days of $4 gas. The car almost is assured of being successful - it is essentially a 'limited' production item. Would imagine there already is a rather serious waiting line.

louiswei

The 300C/Charger has NOTHING on the G8.

From all the reviews I read, the G8 is really a poor man's 5-series and on the other hand the 300C/Charger is just a muscle car with 4 doors.

cdmuile

There's a picture in the current issue of 'Automobile ' magazine taken from above showing the G8 and 5 Series side by side. The resemblance is uncanny. A perfect example of "Design 101's" adage: Form follows function.

captain2

since obviously neither of us has ever driven one I don't know - but I guess I read the same 'rave' reviews you do and can't say I disagree. What is strange though is that there is a whole bunch of 'German' design and engineering in the 300 and the G8 is simply a relabelled Aussie Holden - apparently they must have been building some pretty good cars down under. The G8 is a big car just like the 300, how it would be that much better just doesn't 'figure'.

captain2

an interesting question since both manufacturers are coming out with similar 'efforts' at a 'poor man's BMW - which company is perceived to make a better car and therefore might stand a better chance of succeeding with it?

IMO, probably Pontiac and not because of quality perceptions - more like that Pontiac is generally accepted as a source of performance cars (the numbers would indicate that the Pontiac V8 should blow the doors off of the Genesis) , whereas I think Hyundai has got a battle on its hands in terms of quality and/or performance car perceptions.

tjc78

May I suggest that you are comparing two different animals here? The Pontiac will be a sports car in V8 form. The V6 IMO will be just an also ran. Its a good thing GM won't be able to produce many because, at FE ratings of 15/24 I just don't see people buying this car in large #s. That 24 is with cylinder deactivation BTW.

The Genesis OTOH is trying more to be a luxury car that happens to be fast. Until proven otherwise I don't think this car will be a handler. In the 3.8 form will be plenty fast and would think FE #s in the 18/28 range. As for the V8 they will sell some, but I will be willing to bet the 3.8 is the volume model.

As for quality perceptions I would say Hyundai and Pontiac are about equal here..... which to say isn't that great.

tonycd

"If you don' (sic) think that car has some torque steer issues then I would respectfully suggest that you may not know what it is."

Captain, to paraphrase Forrest Gump: I may not be an intelligent man, but I do know what torque steer is. Which is why, if you re-read my original post, I mentioned my wife's CR-V specifically to provide a comparative context for my evaluation of torque steer in my '92 Maxima.

"I guess you must be hoping that Hyundai gets around to putting that pumped up 3.8 in the Azera... If you really want to feel and 'fight' a little torque steer, go out and find a vintage Saab 9-3 Viggen, turbo 4 banger, and more of a handful than a Impala SS or any Nissan product ever thought of being. Or drive the current Aura XR, a little less of the same stuff."

Yes, I agree, anyone who reads Car and Driver knows that. I never said I was in favor of torque steer. You're raising a red herring argument here.

"You can as many HP as you want, BTW, and Hyundai may develop some sort of 'cure' that successfully hides all that a high school physics book would teach you - but something that still won't change: you'll still have 60% or your over the driven front wheels and the car will still be a plowing understeering nightmare. Not to worry though you might finally get a car that can 'outdrag' even that Impala. I hate to think that the evaluation of any car has sunk to the depths of how many HP it has - because it is only a small part of what a good car is - especially in this class."

I don't recall ever saying anything to the effect that I was extolling the virtues of an overpowered, torque-steering FWD car either. Where do you get these straw men I didn't say? And why?

All I ever said was that I can definitively rebut your claims about "serious torque steer issues" in the 190-horsepower 1992 Maxima by virtue of having driven a well-maintained example this morning. Feeling a little defensive?

colloquor

Sorry, but I've owned both, and Hyundai's quality is above that of Pontiac. Although not a marker of overall quality, the last Azera I rented for a week had far better exterior and interior fit and finish than either my brother's new Nissan or Honda I owned.

tjc78

Notice I said perceptions I would generally agree Hyundai's quality is above Pontiac's current offerings.

thegraduate

Its a good thing GM won't be able to produce many because, at FE ratings of 15/24 I just don't see people buying this car in large #s. That 24 is with cylinder deactivation BTW

Comparing FE to another GM full-size car, the Pontiac looks really good FE wise. If the 360+ hp Pontiac has 15/24, consider that the

197 hp Lucerne has 16/25, and the 275 hp Lucerne has 15/23.
250 hp Charger has 17/24, and the 340 hp Charger has 15/23
255 hp Maxima has 19/25
224hp Grand Marquis has 15/23

Suddenly, the Pontiac doesn't look so bad with that 24 hwy number, does it? :shades:

allmet33

The Lucerne could really benefit from GM's 3.6!!!

thegraduate

Unfortunately (fortunately? ) it would make the Northstar obsolete. I think just the 6-speed auto would help!

tjc78

Good point Grad.... however the type of driver buying the G8 most likely will never hit those #s.... I know I wouldn't

tjc78

The Lucerne could really benefit from GM's 3.6!!!

That's an undstatement!

captain2

I've owned both, and Hyundai's quality is above that of Pontiac
I would generally agree with this, I feel that the Koreans are making a 'better' car than 'Detroit', and have been for at least the last 5 years or so. BUT, I'm not so sure that the average (uninformed) carbuyer Joe thinks so. Performance perceptions, Pontiac 'wins', hands down

allmet33

Well...with the way gas is heading, the Northstar variant wouldn't get much love anyway. Personally, if GM upgraded the Lucerne to the 3.6, they could make that available in the top of the line trim and leave the current version in the lower trim levels.

captain2

supposedly different animals although it's kinda beyond me how we can call the 125 cf (interior), 115" WB, 200" long, and 4000 lb. G8 a 'sports car' :confuse:
and I guess it depends on how close to Hyundai's amusing claims (about the Germans looking over their shoulder) that the Genesis actually is.

captain2

defensive - you got the wrong guy

louiswei

The G8 is a big car just like the 300, how it would be that much better just doesn't 'figure'.

It's all about the steering response and handling, my captain.

From Inside Line's Comparison Test: 2008 Dodge Charger R/T vs. 2008 Pontiac G8 GT:

- First of all, these are not small cars. But the Charger is even bigger than the G8. Slightly.

- When the two are parked side by side, the Charger appears even larger than it is relative to the G8. It also drives bigger.

- Just because the Charger is rear-wheel drive doesn't mean it's at home in the twisties. Hard cornering in the Charger is all about plenty of steering input and body roll. The steering is relatively slow and absolutely numb, but the front tires scream and squeal enough to let you and the world know they're struggling under the weight of this 4,135-pound sedan.

- In contrast, the G8's suspension could be a direct lift from the BMW 5 Series. It isn't, but the G8's MacPherson strut front and four-link rear suspension with progressive-rate coil-over shocks is very similar to the BMW's traditional 5 Series design. As a result, the Pontiac G8 GT rides a lot like, yup, a BMW.

- Sure it rides more stiffly than the Dodge, but that hardly means it's uncomfortable.

- The steering feels much quicker than the Mopar's and the tires feel sutured to the road.

- On a mountain road, the G8 GT will simply run away from the Charger R/T.

Like I've said, it's a battle between an Australian 5er and an American 4-door muscle car.

tjc78

it's kinda beyond me how we can call the 125 cf (interior), 115" WB, 200" long, and 4000 lb. G8 a 'sports car'

I "kinda" agree here but really what is it? It't not a luxury car and not really a family sedan either. Maybe "performance sedan" would be appropriate. Heck maybe we can even stick one of Nissan's "4DSC" stickers on it :P

captain2

then it sure seems a shame then, if what I've read is true - that the G8 is limited (production wise) by Holden's ability to make a sufficent quantity of them for the US market?
Still don't think the Pontiac is going to appeal to many prospective 5/7 series buyers - much in the same way the Genesis won't.

tjc78

they could make that available in the top of the line trim and leave the current version in the lower trim levels

Why? It would be cheaper to just have one engine among the trim levels. Even if that raised the base price $500 look at how more competitive the car would be.

louiswei

Yes Captain, currently the G8 production is limited by Holden but I've read it somewhere before that GM is planning to start making them here in the states sometimes in the very near future. It'll probably be assembled under the same roof as the 2010 Chevy Camaro.

I agree that the Pontiac wouldn't appeal to the prospective 5er buyers just like the Genesis wouldn't. However, there are those people who are lusting after the 5er but couldn't afford one and I think they are the main potential customers for the both 5er-wannabes (Genesis more luxurious and G8 more performance).