Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2

louis- to my knowledge there is no program in the Avalon that does nothing more than illuminate a dash ' maintainence' req'd' light precisely at 5k,10k, 15k etc etc.If there is some sort of computer driven 'oil life' determination, I have never seen it - maybe because I do a lot of hwy driving and I do heed the 5k reminders.
Would be surprised though, that Lexus would have something like this but that it wouldn't carry thru to ALL Toyota products given Toyota's history with sludging. This kind of 'technology' is cheap once a mfgr. has it. To me it's more a question of whether you should trust it.

thegraduate

I might want to change my oil and then go argue with some dealer somewhere that is contending that I didn't change the oil (when trying to get out of a warranty claim)

No dealer could get by with avoiding your warranty claim if you followed instructions in your owners manual. You would be following the maintenance intervals you were told to (by the minder).

What computer ever gave someone a 15k interval?

As far as Lexus having it but keeping it from 'yota, I'd be surprised. Honda has put it in cars all the way down to the lowly Civic since 2006 (other Honda vehicles had it even before that).

imidazol97

>that you would trust some silly computer to evaluate your driving style, so IT can make that decision and IT knows what type oil I put in it?

Sounds a lot better than letting a "silly mechanical mechanism" pop up a 5K indicator. Time to get your oil changes regardless of what kind of oil you put in! It's 5K miles? Hehheeee.

I'll take a sensor that integrates the temperature effects and speed and number of starts and other variables.

captain2

not too me - I'll put trust in myself a long time before I'll put trust in a machine - Heheeee

thegraduate

Since I'm not an automotive engineer for the car company I purchased from, I'll just trust them and let them take the liability.

captain2

although I haven't had the experience myself, Toyota got a rightfully bad rap for looking for about any excuse they could to deny warranty claims on their previous generation V6s for oil sludging and the correspondent damages. Most of those excuses had to do with the inability the car owner to substantiate oil changes.
Using synthetic and given the type of driving I do, it is entirely conceivable that I'm not abusing anything by going 10 or 15k between oil changes - if the 'computer' tells me its OK. How would you think I would do explaining this to Toyota - do I win? - or is it simpler for me to just present them with a stack of oil change receipts showing all those changes at 5k intervals?

captain2

TCO for Azera was higher than for Avy. As you can see tires do contribute to that.
didn't say that exactly - even though Edmunds and Intellichoice seem to think so. Said it is very close, and the Avalon isn't necessarily a more expensive car - to own.
TCO is a number that is highly dependent on what the actual purchase price of the car is (as well as what the resale value is)- if Edmund's/IC are basing their numbers on MSRP, for example, that would be unfair to the Azera simply because the Azera sells at higher discounts than the Avalon. Tires and other 'consumables' are not likely to effect TCO much, some Avalons come with Michelins that seem to wear better than those trims that come with Bridgestones, besides which, even if the Azera 'ate' tires - it still would only be a few hundred bucks added to a TCO that is in the tens of thousands. The cars that might be doing real well right now (from a TCO perspective) are most likely things like the Impala and the Taurus probably due to some really large initial discounts and despite probably poor resale values.

jaymagic

Captain, you should know better, lol. I changed after first 1500, then every 7500 since. I do hope you are right about my Michelins, since they are the original equipment tire on an Azera. 235-55-17 MXV4 S8 model ($202 ea. at Tire Rack), I will be thrilled If I get 50K out of them. They have been a great tire for me, so far. My guess is that Discount Tire might be wanting to sell me some new ones sooner versus later, lol, hence the "5000" miles left comment.

As for the TC/ESC, I don't know how much you drive in difficult winter conditions, but slush on top of ice at about 32 degrees, is about as bad as it can get. And, in the mountains you have to go up and downhill, so even at 20 mph or even much less, it can get interesting. Of course, the last time I had even a fender bender was in an Avalon, with its vehicle skid control, etc. When a van loses it, and crosses two lanes of traffic going downhill and is sliding crosswise toward you one car length in front of you, you will find that even the mighty Avalon is screwed, with its Michelins not getting any traction to turn or brake, even at no more than 10-15 mph. Now perhaps my Azera will perform better, but even I doubt it. Given that the two months with the highest snow totals in Colorado are March and April, I expect to see those conditions a few more times this spring. BTW, my other vehicle is an Explorer with studded snows.

I believe as of 2007 every Hyundai model had the ESC capability, as standard equipment Unlike some manufacturers, like TOYOTA, which made it available as an extra cost option, speaking of cheap and valuing profit over safety. In fact, I think it is still an option on some Avalon models, isn't it??? I thought perhaps companies like Hyundai would shame them into making it a standard feature for 2008,but I guess not. Yep, still an option on a "cheap" Avalon. Guess some TOY fans will have to wait for the government to make safety a priorityfor its customers.

thegraduate

I believe as of 2007 every Hyundai model had the ESC capability, as standard equipment Unlike some manufacturers, like TOYOTA, which made it available as an extra cost option, speaking of cheap and valuing profit over safety.

If you're going to speak of one, you must speak of the other. The Hyundai Accent doesn't offer ESC, and the Elantra makes you get the top-of-the-line model in order to get it. You are awfully quick to sarcastically badmouth Toyota yet praise Hyundai when they both do the same thing with some vehicles in their lineup, even though Hyundai has it standard on some trims, it doesn't offer it on the "cheap" ones.

Back on topic though, all Hyundai vehicles RELEVANT to this discussion have ESC standard, which, at this price level and size of car, should already be the case with all manufacturers I feel.

jaymagic

I stand corrected re the Accent. I do know that the base Azera has the ESC and TC as standard equipment, while the Avalon makes it an option. And, having had it in both a previous Avalon and my current Azera, it should be in every car, certainly in any of the size and cost of a "mainstream sedan." I also like that I can turn it off, if I want, but with it coming on automatically the next time the car is started.

allmet33

All trim levels of the Azera come with ESC.

Personally, I like the fact that it comes on automatically the next time the car is started. I rather forget to turn it off rather than turn it back on.

captain2

you should know better
you are right about that, would suspect that anybody who is spending the time to participate on these forums, would all be quite 'anal' about things like oil changes.

On a more serious note,and contrary to popular belief (not anything unusual for me) - I am quite suspicious of computers in the vehicles we drive. I have enough of an understanding of how things like ESC systems work, and also had an experience about 2 years ago in my non-ESC Avalon that I believe that I might not be here today if my car had this 'wonderful' 'safety' feature. Kinda been on a campaign ever since to correct a common misperception that ESC improves the way any vehicle handles. IT DOESN'T. Furthermore I believe that this misperception and the 'catcher's mitt' that these systems provide also ultimately lead to some really bad driving habits and drivers. Is it a 'safety' feature - certainly, but is it something that an enthusiast really wants on his car - maybe not. That depends entirely on how conservatively systems like this are implemented. This would not be a class of vehicles (the large 'family' sedan) that something like ESC would logically be implemented appropriately (for the enthusiast). Although these cars are not BMWs or Porsches or whatever, it doesn't mean that they can't be something we can 'enjoy'. So, in effect, we enthusiasts are at the mercy of some computer nerds (and liability lawyers). A dangerous 'Big Brother' path we are starting down, and now that the government has seen fit to get involved it will get even worse.
So fine, Hyundai in 2005 (the Sonata?) gets a bit of a head start on what they know is going to federally mandated in a few years anyway - big deal - but, to me, the fact that I can't buy an Azera without the ESC is not something to brag on.
.

joe97

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/18/new-york-08-preview-2009-nissan-maxima-leaked- - -on-forum/

Not sure about the front and rear but the rest (i.e. interior) looks great

captain2

Personally, I like the fact that it comes on automatically the next time the car is started.
It would have to, if it is to be construed a 'safety' feature' as well as to avoid incurring the wrath of some lawyer down the road. Don't know of any car that doesn't do this when it is also giving the driver the option of shutting it off. However, there are some implementations of ESC, where even when turned off it is still on (Chryslers) and several implementations where there is no real option to shut it off at all (Toyotas) . And yes, I would imagine that all Azera drivers normally have it on because it would require a conscience effort to shut it off - that the reason why they do it that way. It's almost would have you wondering whether the car's computer records any incidences where the driver turned it off so that the mfgr. might protect itself from TV lawyers.

captain2

thanks for the link - a really good looking car IMO. Wonder if they are still thinking that they can have the '4DSC' along with the 270+hp and FWD that it probably does have. This (the sporty side of things) is definitely the Maxima's niche in this group - glad to see it reaffirmed.

tjc78

I really like the look of the the car as well. Hopefully, it won't have CVT!

tjc78

"However, there are some implementations of ESC, where even when turned off it is still on (Chryslers) and several implementations where there is no real option to shut it off at all (Toyotas)"

IIRC the Chryslers can be fully turned off in a way similar to the insane command sequence in the Toyotas. I still can not get over the fact that Toyota no longer puts an "off" switch for the VSC/Trac, at least the sensitivity of the newer system is less than it was on my '00 Solara. My '03 Av didn't have either system and I must say I never missed it.

captain2

true- the CVT also seems to 'ruin' any pretense that any car might have for being a 'sport coupe'.

captain2

am going to guess here - but I would bet that Toyota's corporate attorneys advised them to stop providing any means to shut it off and also that the VSC' s default condition was on in any case in your Solara..

allmet33

Finally...a Maxima interior that befits the car. I actually like how they gave it it's own identity too...no longer looking like the Altima. However...the car looks like a combination of looks (as if one could be surprised). The back end looks like a Lexus variant. Front end looks like a variation of the G35. I know some of you aren't gonna like this, but...it would seem that the Azera and the new Max have similar lines when looking at it from a side profile...the Max just has some sharp creases instead of smooth rounded surfaces.

captain2

styling issues always somewhat objective but unless you go way out into right field with things like the Taurus or 300/Charger - don't all these cars have some basic commonality? From my perspective, the new Max shares more with the Genesis than it does with the Azera.

joe97

Judging strictly off of the photos so far, I can't say I am feeling the exterior. While I applaud Nissan for trying something new, I am just unsure about the headlights; the grille down to the front fender I am still debating, I like it and I don't like it at the same time The back leaves much to be desired.

That said, the inteior looks great. Very Infinit-y, which may not be a good thing but still very pleasant looking.

allmet33

I didn't expect anyone to agree with MY assessment, as you said...styling issues are objective.

At one point the Maxima (current body style) didn't have any commonalities with any car in this segment.

captain2

as you said...styling issues are objective.

My bad - should be SUB - jective, of course. IMO the new Altima looks
a whole lot better than the current Max. It is difficult for me to get a real feel from pictures - somehow some cars look different (better or worse) in the flesh. The Azera is a car that I think does'nt photograph well (too rounded) but looks much better when you see it on the road. To each his/her own

jaymagic

Interesting photos. I happen to prefer the Azera from the back and like the look of the Max from the front.

allmet33

Eh...I knew what you meant.

You're right about how a car photographs...when I first saw the pics of the Azera online...I wasn't wild about it. However, seeing it in the showroom changed all that.

With the Max lookin as it has for as long as it has, seeing it in it's new form will take some getting used to (sorta like the new Accords). I too like the current Altima over all it's previous models, but the coupe is even better looking to me. Anyway, I think the Max will be one to grow on folks and once it does...watch out. They did right with the interior IMO...much better job on the inside.

captain2

I am more concerned with the mechanical specs - how much they are trying to squeeze out of the VQ power wise, or even if they might use the 3.7, could it please, please, please be RWD and will it be the only car in this class to offer a MT? Then I consider what it looks like! The current Maxima's style, while I'm not in love with it (especially the interior), is no reason not to buy the car - IMO.

allmet33

It would make sense for them to use the 3.7 in the Max (another way to truly make it the flagship sedan). I doubt that they will make it RWD (leaving that for their Infiniti line). Power-wise...it has to pump out at least 280-285. It would certainly be class leading power. Maybe they should have kept the current body and refreshed it (like they did with the Altima) and just change the interior to what they show in those pics.

I've always liked the body of the current Max (up until the Altima started really looking like it), but the interior was just lacking.

tjc78

I just figured out why I like the styling of the new Max so much.....dead ringer for the Lexus GS IMO

tjc78

also that the VSC' s default condition was on in any case in your Solara

It only had Trac but absolutely always on when you started the car.

allmet33

Huh? I see similarities between the front & rear fenders, but that's about it. Nose is totally different and trunk isn't squared off like the GS. The Max actually looks sleeker IMO. Notice the "B" pillars are raked back a bit on the Max, on the GS, they look almost verticle. Not wild about the way the headlights wrap the corners on the Max, the tail lights are okay. One thing I don't like on the Max is now the hood is done. Instead of being incorporated into the design, it looks like it was thrown on after the fact. If they had incorporated the top of the nose into the hood and brought the edges straight down...would have been a better look...IMO.

allmet33

...the diesel that looks to be going in the future Veracruz will find it's way into the Genesis and or Azera later on down the road as well.

Scroll down and read the entry for the 2010 Veracruz Diesel

captain2

Suggest that the 300+ HP they are getting out of the 3.7 is too much for FWD especially since Nissan has never been real good at 'hiding' it anyway. The Maxima can not be the '4DSC' that Nissan would like it to be and still have that nasty TS common to previous Maxs.
What I don't see happening is Nissan not putting some reasonable power in the Max Diesel (it is a Maxima after all) a condition that would certainly mean RWD - because a diesel capable of moving a 4000 lb.(or so) car in any sort of Maxima-like manner would have to put out in excess of 220 hp and likely well over 400 lb ft of torque would come with that - to 'level' the playing field with its gasoline engined cousins. Maybe only wishfull thinking on my part - a change to RWD - but I wouldn't want to drive a 300hp/280 lb ft Maxima, never mind one that has say 220hp and 420 lb ft.- as FWD cars

tjc78

IMO the overall shape is identical. Long hood, short trunk, low stance. Yes there are elements that are different.... but not that much from the side profile.

However, I want to know about the mechanicals. Tune the VQ just south of 300HP, 5 or 6 speed auto, tame the TS and FE similar to my Av and I will seriously consider it.

OTOH..... make me even happier throw in the 3.7 and RWD and I'll be standing in line with the Captain to get mine.

captain2

make me even happier throw in the 3.7 and RWD and I'll be standing in line with the Captain to get mine
wishful thinking I'm afraid - why oh why is anybody going to spend $45k on an M35, then? I forgot, who's in front - you or me?

allmet33

Right, cause if you change the Max to RWD and pump it north of 300 hp...it will be selling pretty close to $40K. Unless of course they boost the M and start the 35 around $43K

captain2

Tune the VQ just south of 300HP, 5 or 6 speed auto, tame the TS and FE similar to my Av
this is an interesting concept - it may not be possible.
Think about it, the Toyota 2GR has been around for about 4 years now and nobody yet has approached it HP vs. FE (efficiency) . You would logically think that improvements in those technologies would have somebody (I'm thinking Honda here) come up with something 'better' in that period of time. Hasn't happened yet - so I wonder if there aren't some sort of efficiency 'limits' within the current bounds of technology

tjc78

why oh why is anybody going to spend $45k on an M35, then?

I know what you are saying, but.... people spend $40 K for an ES350 and we all know what is under the "L" in that car!

P.S. I think you are still in front of the line!

tjc78

Right, cause if you change the Max to RWD and pump it north of 300 hp...it will be selling pretty close to $40K.

Quite possibly correct.. however IF the Max was to go RWD w/ the 3.7 I'll bet a paycheck the M35 would quickly become the M37!

tjc78

Hasn't happened yet - so I wonder if there aren't some sort of efficiency 'limits' within the current bounds of technology

May be on to something here... I think part of the reason the 2GR is so efficient is mostly due to engine design, but also tranny programming geared for economy, and Toyota does know how to shave off the pounds.

I know I am verging OT but I am stunned that Honda had to resort to cylinder deactivation in the new Accord to help with the FE #s

allmet33

I think that's the next logical step since the G already has the 3.7.

Then again, they can leave the 3.5 in the Max and squeeze it for another 15 hp and leave it at that. Does the Max necessarily have to go to RWD if they go with the 3.7? Why can't it be toned down to 285 hp?

captain2

if the current Maxima has some TS issues at 255 hp (or whatever) why should 285 or 300 hp be anything but more difficult? Part of the reason why I believe that TS is not such a problem with Avalons/Azeras has to do with the relative softness of the chassis compared to a typical Maxima as well as some rather conservative tranny programming. Same applies for the Lucerne Northstar. The one 'advantage' the Maxima might actually have is the CVT - which I think is more dependent on computer programs than your typical geared tranny.Therefore HP/torque to the front wheels can be minimized more easily simply thru selection of a higher 'gear'. Have read that in the new Altima, TS is not nearly the 'problem' that it is in my wife's 03 3.5SE, for example - with 30 less HP - but also with a 'traditional' 4 spd AT (and less computer 'interference').

allmet33

Ummmmmmmmmmmm...why not leave the torque where it's at, then the TS doesn't get any worse, right?

So...if they go with the CVT in the Max, it's possible to see something close to 300 hp in a FWD car, right?

captain2

there already is 300hp in a FWD car it's called an Impala, from a short test drive it sounds, feel, and is 'mean' - potentially a real handful since little is done to counter the TS but also exhilarating to some that like such things . The Acura TL-S at 286 HP handles the TS problem by simply limiting throttle engagement when the computer reads that 1) you are accelerating hard and 2) the front wheels aren't straight. That being the case, I say 'what's the point' - if the 'computer' is not going to let me use all that HP then why pay for it?
There are and have been many FWD cars over the years that TS has been an issue - some with substantially less power than what we're talking about here, things have improved. I had a 92 Maxima that had some serious torque steer and 'only' about 190 hp. So its not all about any specific amount of power causing the problem, there are design issues like suspension geometries etc involved as well.

allmet33

Which is a point I argued before, but still was shot down that a 300 hp FWD sedan could exist.

I'm sure Nissan could do a better job than Chevy did!

captain2

no, the point is NOT to challenge the laws of physics and if we are going to insist on 300hp sedans then put the drive wheels in the right place. There is a lot more to a 'good' well engineered sedan than simply how many HP it has or how fast it might accelerate in a straight line. The Impala, IMO, is a good example of that - a typically 'Detroit' solution to a problem - put a V8 in it when they can't (or don't want to) make the appropriate V6s.

allmet33

I understand the argument that it may not be the BEST arrangement, but it CAN work as Chevy has shown us. If an American company can do it...I know one of the import big guns can do it better...don't ya think?

Honestly, I think Nissan is about to prove that it can be done, however...until hard facts come out, we can only speculate what will be.

I agree that it may not be the best configuration, please don't think I'm contending that point. I'm simply saying that it may be possible for Nissan to take Chevy's idea and make it work better.

TS can be a problem, but it usually is only a problem when one mashes on the gas pedal. I've never seen a situation where TS is a problem under normal driving situations. Even with the cars that have TS issues, it's not such a problem that it's yanking control out of the driver's hands and causing accidents. It's a price to pay to have the benefits of FWD and get the power some want available in RWD cars.

captain2

why do you suppose that GM in response to the successes that are the 300/Charger and the redesigned Mustang went to Australia to find the 'answers'.? Maybe because 1) it was cheaper for them (GM good at that) and 2) that they understand you don't put 361hp through any of those existing cars they had available. Even Hyundai understands this: whatever you think the Genesis might be: blue collar Bimmer or a competitor in this class, it is also recognition on Hyundai's part that a 'proper' sedan like this is RWD. The G8 is already starting to receive naturally rave reviews from the enthusiast mags, I would bet that the new Camaro will do the same - both cars 'could be' 300+ HP and FWD - but they are not and really could never be.

allmet33

361 hp is not 285 hp though. The point of the matter right now is that it's been proven that a 300 hp FWD can and does exist. I can understand if we were discussing Nissan's plans to boost the Max up to 360+ hp, then yes, by all means...I agree it must be RWD. However...we are talking about a 15 hp boost over the Altima (which, last time I checked is below 300 hp).

The magic number that keeps getting thrown around is 300 and up, but we aren't talking taking the Max over 300 hp or even up to it.

captain2

15 hp (out of 285) or (in addition to the 285) is inconsequential - except to those that put some value on bragging rights. Just like the few tenths of a second that an Avalon/Maxima might be quicker than the Azera - inconsequential. The TS problem must exist at 250 hp as it exists at 300 or whatever, and that may not be so inconsequential.