Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

louiswei

Oh yeah, sorry, I was meant to say 20". However, I still can't imagine Azzys with 20" rims though.

Edit: Oh yeah I saw it, hmm... it certainly looks, umm... different . Your head unit looks nice though but aren't u worried that someone would just break in and snatch it? It happens to me once before so now I am skeptical about aftermarket head units (can't really fit one in my car now anyway...).

allmet33

Here it is...in all it's glory! Doesn't even look like 20" wheels, does it?

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

captain2

a test spin isn't going to let you fully appreciate
that's for sure - with any car. Kinda like a wife (or husband) ? The Azera Ltd. I drove had an MSRP of a tad over $30k so it obviously was pretty well maxxed out. Had already had my Avalon for about a year at that point. Bottom line: preferred the interior design, the drivetrain, and FE of the Avalon, the exterior design and pricetag of the Azera. Had the Azera been available back in the early part of 2005, I'm not sure I wouldn't have ended up in one. Did recommend that a friend give it a try (think he paid about $26k for it (+TTL)) give it a try, he's been happy with it ever since - he still talks to me and he spent about 4 grand less than I did

allmet33

Sounds like you tested the Limited with the Ultimate Package (then)...packaging is a bit different now. I wouldn't have been surprised if you could have walked out the door with that one at around $26 or 27K (I guess depending on where you are located).

I went and looked at an Avalon...the exterior didn't do anything for me (that high belt line drives me nuts). However...I will give kudos on the interior (except for that expansive dash...like looking out across the Sahara! LOL). However, in the end...the Azera fit my budget a bit more nicely and not to mention, looking at it from the outside...it made me want to get in and drive it.

Honestly...if both the Azera and the Avalon were priced the same (just saying if), I don't think anyone could go wrong with either one. I would be hard pressed to tell someone they were wrong for picking one over the other...they are both very good cars.

captain2

(that high belt line drives me nuts).
Can't say it drives me nuts (or any further off the deep end than I already am) but I am not a fan of this 'Bangle' butts.

Honestly...if both the Azera and the Avalon were priced the same
They are - you just need to consider what the thing is worth when it comes time to replace it.

allmet33

I hate to say it, but the Avalon has a bangle butt too. :P It's just not as pronounced as it is on the Azera.

I'm talkin about priced the same when you sit down to write that check to buy one brand new.

allmet33

Of course you would be correct, but then anyone driving an Azera like that should have their head examined.

Under normal driving conditions (you know...daily driving), the Avalon and Azera are tops for this group of cars. Both are more than capable, both are quite comfortable (for drivers AND passengers). I have driven my Azera hard on a few occassions and many would be surprised at the car's agility. Now before the comments start, I'm not saying it's more agile than the Avalon or Maxima or anything else, I'm just saying for the type of car it is...one would be surprised at the car's agility.

I can't say much for the quiet part of the ride as I like to listen to my music and usually crank it up. However, it is definitely smoooooooth on the highway!

captain2

don't underestimate or discount the Maxima - the VQ is likely the second best engine in this group, the CVT I've decided is love it or leave it, and it does compete most directly with the Altima. But, if you think about it, is it really a whole lot different than choosing a Sonata over an Azera or a Camry over an Avalon?

tonycd

Captain2, your reply to colloquor's Azera post is rather curious.

First you bring up that the Azera is less tautly suspended than... the Toyota Avalon Touring.

Then you assert that if the Azera has any desirable "European" traits, those traits must be even more evident in... the Toyota Avalon.

Interestingly, colloquor's entire post was devoted to sharing his own two-day experience with the Hyundai Azera. He compares it to several European cars he has owned. Never in any way, shape or form did he even mention the Toyota Avalon.

I think the regular readers of this board are fully aware by now that you happen to own a Toyota Avalon Touring. You probably have some very interesting things to say about it. I would be delighted to read them, in a context that does not needlessly belittle a fellow human being and the observations about a competing vehicle that he was kind enough to share with us.

Thank you for respecting the group in your future posts.

allmet33

Different is exactly what I was going for my friend. I can't say that choice is something everyone would do, but isn't that the purpose of having many sizes and styles to choose from?

The head unit...actually, you don't know how many times I've been asked if that's the stock unit. Sorry to hear you've been hit before, sadly...I know the feeling. You say you can't fit one in now??? I replaced mine becasue I wanted more sound control and more features than the OEM unit offered. You can put an aftermarket unit in any car you wish...it's just a matter of wanting to. I've never kept a stock stereo in any car I've owned.

allmet33

I'm not disounting the Maxima in anyway, however...it's a bit small inside and well, the interior is not inspiring to me. Sorry...that's just how I feel.

As far as the whole Maxima/Altima comparing to the Azera/Sonata or Avalon/Camry...the problem here is that the Altima actually has more power than the Maxima. There is no Camry or Sonata that is more powerful than either of their larger siblings. Also, the Sonata or Camry aren't close in size to them like the Altima is to the Maxima. So to answer your question...yeah, it's a whole lot different.

captain2

you are pulling the quote out of context - I was referring to the fact that if the Azera has the power that would qualify it as some sort of 'European Sedan' then the Avalon must also therefore be one - simply because it is slightly quicker. And I would like you to find a single post out of hundreds where anybody was 'belittled' by me, all I ever said was that I didn't agree with the man's comment about the Azera's 'sporting pretensions' simply because none of the cars here can do that. Whether you can accept what obviously was phrased as opinion is of little import...

captain2

I am not in the business of promoting Maximas either - I happen to agree that Nissan should generally improve its interiors although the new Altima's a definite step in the right direction.

allmet33

Captain...with all due respect (please don't think I'm attacking you or anything), your posts do have a certain "air" about them sometimes. To those that don't know your style...you could come across as belittling or like you're dismissing someone else's post. You may not see it because, well...that's your style. Nobody's perfect, we just have to 'learn' each other and respect what the other has to say (as long as it's not something that comes out of left field or something).

louiswei

Well I really don't have a fight in this matter but I fully understand about Captain2's assessment, given that I am an engineer so...

Since in the general consensus that:

Avalon Touring's handling > Azera's handling

and since from the original poster that Azera drives more like an European it only makes sense to conclude that Avalon Touring should drive even more like an European.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with that assessment.

I really don't think anyone was being "belittle" from Captain2's posts. Being a fellow poster I just have to say that in order to maintain the fair and balance of this board.

allmet33

I would agree with you on that statement, which puts the pressure on Nissan to do someting to make the Maxima stand apart from the Altima if the Maxima is truly the flagship sedan of their line-up.

louiswei

You can put an aftermarket unit in any car you wish...it's just a matter of wanting to.

Sure but I am not going to do that at a cost of destroying my beautiful center stack... I've seen aftermarket head units installed in the same car as mine before and truth to be told, it's very ugly.

louiswei

allmet33, in all honesty I have to say that your "style" isn't all that different than El Capitan's. The biggest difference between you two is that one owns an Azzy and another one owns an Avy...

:P

captain2

louis-
you ready to trade me your IS yet? THAT might be the ticket for my impending case of 'wanderlust'. My Avalon is now paid for! Since you apparently live on the West Coast somewhere, I'll even deliver.
But I do appreciate somebody who can read my posts for what they actually say - and not some sort of attack on the provinces of 'H' land - heck as I have said many many times- I really do like the Azera, and really also believe it has been an accomplishment for that mfgr. How dare I even imply that a 'European Sedan' it ain't - that would be reserved for a nice little Lexus I've got my eye on.

louiswei

Captain, I see that you are going have a new ride in your garage in the near future, keep us posted about your car shopping process.

By the way, are you thinking about staying within this segment or moving up to something with a luxury nameplate?

captain2

actually I have this soft spot for Gs and Ms probably V6s. True story, I was on my way to pick up a G35 (was going to be about $32k at the time) when I 'stumbled' upon the Avalon - a car that I didn't even know Toyota had done. The G perhaps a little too 'sports sedan' for my old bones and obviously a little smaller, but a real hoot to drive especially with a MT. Aargh, maybe I won't do it again, I'm now 3 years older.

captain2

and I forgot to mention that soon to be available other 'Korean' car - certainly deserving of a real look - also as a V6 - probably about the same number I guessing as the G35 would be, and less than the M35.

tjc78

"I can't say much for the quiet part of the ride as I like to listen to my music and usually crank it up"

I with you there, the only time I actually notice how quiet the car really is, I am carrying passengers with the radio low or off.

tjc78

"You can put an aftermarket unit in any car you wish...it's just a matter of wanting to. "

Its getting tougher and tougher. For example, in the Avalon you have to relocate the factory head to the trunk, so the multi display and HVAC continue to work. Also the dash would need some custom work.

alexstore

Allmet only a little over 1 week is left before 09 Maxima will be introduced on NYIAS. I am probably taking my son there ( free for kids under 2). Like I said before Altima is used as a test bed for next Maxima. Sonata was a test bed for Azera. Toyota went other way they place everything new into their flagships.

allmet33

Sonata...testbed for Azera? LOL If anything, the Azera is the test bed for the Genesis.

Since when has the Altima been the test bed for the Maxima? The Maxima has been around long before the Altima was even conjured up.

Enjoy the auto show!

allmet33

Well...in a lot of cases, it's about choosing the right unit. Some folks just choose units because it looks cool or it has features they are looking for and they don't think about the asthetics. It took me a few months before I even found the unit I ended up with. The one thing I didn't want was the regular sized stereo with that ugly pocket underneath it...NO WAY!!!

allmet33

Hmmmmmmmm...you're saying we're peas in a pod??? :confuse:

allmet33

Why would you relocate the factory head unit to the trunk when it already exists in the dash??? If there's a unit in the dash...it can be replaced. The industry has kits specific for each application. You would be surprised. However...if you get the Avalon with the nav unit...most folks don't want to replace that. Most of the time, folks are upgrading base model stereos or even some premium stereos.

pat

Please let me respond to that...

I believe the point is that there are some posters here who are quite good at comparing vehicle for vehicle but also include in those comparisons personal digs towards those who disagree. I think that has been what was meant in a few comments of late and I think our entire discussion would benefit if those "some posters" would keep the comments to the cars and leave off the derisions of those who have different viewpoints.

How about we give it a try and see what happens?

tjc78

Apparently everything is tied together in the Av. HVAC and the multi display need the head unit to work. I am just going by what I read. It seems to make sense to me as the head unit appears to be only a CD transport and a controller for the whole system. There is no display on the unit itself and the amp is located elsewhere as well.

allmet33

Ahhhhhh...I see, so the actual head unit isn't even in the dash, it's more or less just a control panel. Yeah...I can see how that would require some innovation and creativity.

captain2

the Altima has also been around for many many years, almost as long as the original 3 liter V6 Maxs, but intially only in 4 cylinder form, but they both date back into the 80s. It wasn't until the 2002 MY that the Altima became so close in size (and performance) to the Maxima. That 2002 Altima is the car that really started the HP wars in that segment, and is also the one credited in helping Nissan turnaround from some rather serious financial difficulties in the 80s/90s. Alexstore may not be far off in his contention that the Altima has been used to develop things to be later used in the Max at least in more recent history.
It will be interesting to see if Nissan does change the Max enough to differentiate more from the Altima - I was kinda of hoping that Nissan would use their RWD platform on it along with a slightly more energetic version of the VQ but then again that would likely hurt Infiniti sales. Haven't see or heard too much - think Nissan is playing this one close to the vest.

tjc78

"I was kinda of hoping that Nissan would use their RWD platform on it along with a slightly more energetic version of the VQ "

As long as they would do it without CVT I'd be interested. Would hurt Infiniti sales but would all go to the same pot at least.

allmet33

The Altima has not been around since the 80's. The Altima came out in '93. What has the Altima ever had that the Maxima didn't have (up until the last few years). I mean...when the 2002 Altima first dropped, the Maxima was still considered the flagship in every way shape and form (except for maybe size). It wasn't unil they pumped the Altima up in 2005 in the HP department that folks really started looking at the two and wondering what the deal was.

tonycd

for those who know the Max:

I test-drove an M35x the other day (don't have the money, just curiosity killing the cat). I was enraptured by every aspect of the car, with one giant exception: the engine noise. It was a deal-killer in several ways:
•It was coarse and raspy, not a really pleasing engine note.
•I felt it was too loud and not isolated enough for a luxury car.
•Worst of all, they geared the 5-speed auto so it was sawing away frantically at about 2500 rpm at 60 mph, so the damn thing never shut up even at steady speed. It ruined the whole highway experience for me.

I can't imagine the engine is better isolated in the Maxima than in the newer-design luxury model, but I know the Maxima has a CVT. Is it geared to lope along at lower RPM on the highway vs. the Infiniti?

captain2

OK, stand corrected, but I did actually own a 98 and a 2000 model Altima 4 banger and they were not available with v6s until 2002, the Maxs do predate them by a few years - owned one of those as well - a '92 with a 190hp 3.0 - predecessor to the VQ3.5. The 2002 Altima had the same VQ 3.5 (rated at 240hp) that is in the car today. The Max, of course, also got that engine in versions that went to 255 (or 265 hp) . I'll guarantee you that my 2003 Altima 3.5SE 240hp will keep up with any of the cars on this board simply because it is not as large or heavy and because it will give my 280hp (?) Avalon a good run. I would even go so far as to tell you that I'm relatively sure it will keep up with the current 270hp CVT model - and that is with a 'mere' 4 speed conventional AT.

allmet33

A few years??? LOL The Max hit the scene in '84. However, you're right...2002 is when Nissan dropped the bombshell of the 240 hp 3.5 V-6 Altima that seemed to be the start of the HP wars. Even at that point...the fact that the Maxima had 15 more ponies...it was a different animal. However, when the Altima got refreshed in '05...it surpassed the Maxima in terms of power and performance, and it probably equalled it in terms of technology. In terms of size...the two were pretty much the same..so how could one call the Maxima the flagship anymore? Yeah...they better do something good with it, that's for sure.

captain2

As you observed Nissan has geared the Infiniti quite differently than they do the Max and FE suffers - but supposedly helps a big car with a bit more spunk. Maintaining a modicum of performance, I suppose, but at 300 hp I think the VQ is being strained a bit. I thought the same of the G35 MT, and that was 3 years ago - haven't tried the 3.7 liter variant.
One thing about CVTs though, if you are going to use one, you better also have an engine that is happy at higher rpms. Fords/Volvo's CVT in the original 500 was a dismal failure because that 3.0 liter engine that came with it besides being down on power was also something not real pleasing at 5000 rpm or so. The new Altima is geared to lower engine speeds and holds the same 2000 rpm or so at 70 that most of the other cars in this group do. Maybe also the reason why the Altima FE is competitive. I still don't understand Nissan's apparent dedication to the CVT - although it has been successful for them - it is interesting that they don't use it in the high end Ms, although I would bet it may be the only tranny available on the new Maxima.

captain2

they better do something good with it, that's for sure
IMO, the Maxima has always been a competitive selection in this group, power wise, FE wise, and even size/option level wise. CR has it rated #2 in this group - and it deserves it. A helluva nice car and a different kind of ride for a vehicle in this group. The Altima is, of course, rated at the top of its particular segment and you can certainly contend that two vehicles are quite similar - but the Maxima in terms of perception and reality is definitely still the 'flagship'.

allmet33

In terms of being the flagship, it is only that because the Max has always been. However, it's been harder and harder to look at it as such with the current Altima as it is. Perceptions, as they may be, have started to change on the Maxima when folks can get everything and more in the Altima. It's not like one would give up much in terms of interior space, right (they are pretty darn close in those terms)?

The Maxima, in it's current form, is still very competitive amongst the others in this segment (a point I'm not arguing at all). However, if it is upgraded to truly be the Nissan flagship...will it exceed the competition? Maybe, just maybe...the Altima would slide up and compete with the Avalon, Azera, etc. and the Maxima will compete with the Genesis, G8, etc. Maybe??? :confuse:

captain2

the Altima sells very very well (200000/year) as a competitor in what is probbaly the toughest segment to succeed in. And they do it without pumping their sales numbers too much thru the fleet dept. Why would they want to reposition it? The Avalon sold extremely well when it first came out in 05 but its sales have been poached a bit by the Camry XLE V6 and to some extent the ES. The point being that the Altima should be expected to rob a little from the Maxima - but it also works in reverse - I'm thinking that it is possible to get a current Max for less than a full boat Altima. Happens all the time, you don't think that Sonata buyers are tempted by the Azera, or vice versa? Those cars are also of similar size, now they can even share the same 3.3 liter drivetrain, and is not like that a 'loaded' Sonata isn't available for less money than the Azera. From pictures, it appears that the 09 Sonata interior etc. has been upgraded enough that the lines of differentiation are blurred even more - just like as you say - there might be no reason to buy a Azera or a Maxima..

allmet33

IF...the Altima were slightly larger inside to compete...the sales would be the same, it would still be what it is. If the Altima can compete with the Maxima, it could certainly compete with the other Maxima comptetitors, right?

Azera buyers end up in a Sonata, if for any other reason, they can't afford the Azera. I can't say that everyone that has gone in to buy an Azera ended up with one, some may feel that they can accept a little less power, slightly less room and still get the same amenities and pay less and be happy.

With the Maxima...that doesn't happen. Someone goes in to look at a Maxima and when they see the Altima and what it offers...they're going to feel cheated if they were to get a Maxima (at this point)...I know I would. The Maxima offers nothing that you can't get in the Altima, so yeah...you can get a Maxima for less than an Altima, but which one is the more desireable of the two? In comparing the Azera and Sonata...if you go with the 3.3 V-6...well, the Sonata will win out because the base model Azera offers next to nothing. However, the fully loaded Sonata can't touch the fully loaded Azera and the pricing is justified. The same can't be said of the Maxima/Altima and thus...that is why you probably can get a loaded Max for less than a loaded Altima, but again...which would be the more desirable option?

alexstore

interesting fact. Both Nissan and Toyota only use their best engine in flagships. why is it that Azera has 3.3? is this really a flagship?
plus Allmet there are minor details that separate Altima and Max

louiswei

Well...in a lot of cases, it's about choosing the right unit.

Well, in my case none of the after market head unit would fit because even without the GPS screen my car has a fully integrated center stack. It does look good but definitely offers less option for non-OEM upgrades.

vic10

"Captain...with all due respect (please don't think I'm attacking you or anything), your posts do have a certain "air" about them sometimes."

Says the pot to the kettle. You've LMAO'd so many times at other people's comments it's a wonder you have one left....

captain2

is why you probably can get a loaded Max for less than a loaded Altima,I betcha I can do the same with a Sonata/Azera right now - there is only about a $2000.00 difference betwenn the two MSRP (30 vs 32k) , and because the Azera is now the 'old' model and the Sonata 'new'. I'm guessing the drive out price is going to be close to the same. Now whether you think the Azera is somehow 'worth' the extra money, that is something that is physically or objectively hard to justify - the same situation that currently exists between the 'new' Altima vs the ''old' Maxima.

allmet33

Touche!

alexstore

good point!

allmet33

Ahhhhhhhh...you can't get a fully loaded Azera (3.8) for less than a fully loaded Sonata!!!

Currently, with the Sonata only offering the 3.3 V-6 and the Azera offers a choice of 3.3 or 3.8...the extra money for the 3.8, larger trunk, power pedals, sensored wipers, power folding mirrors...are justified. You aren't getting those things in the Sonata. If the Sonata were offered with the 3.8 V-6 and had the same amount of power...there would be a problem. The Azera is still the big brother.

The Maxima...well, it simply can't hold a candle to it's little brother any more.