"Why can we just wait till the Genesis is in the dealers showroom and then we can determine what it should be called...... Let the public decide if this is a Lux car or not."
Interesting concept...but how would you do this? Everything said so far about the Genesis indicates is a well equipped car at a bargain price so people would move up to it who can't afford a Lexus, MB, etc. That would make it not a luxury car but a "mainstream large sedan" that may be better equipped than most. You'd have to see luxury car buyers (and I don't mean people who get bargain lease rates, I mean buyers) giving up their Lexus and MB's to purchase a Genesis in order for the car to be luxury and we all know that ain't gonna happen......
"Now, at least, we have power and economy that has been unavailable in this class"
True, a large car that had 250+ HP that could pull 30+ on the highway was unheard of until the current crop of sedans. Hopefully, things will only get better. I still wish for fresher offerings from GM and Ford, but the midsize market is what they focus on. Which, of course, they should that is where the bulk of the dollars are!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That would make it not a luxury car but a "mainstream large sedan" that may be better equipped than most. You'd have to see luxury car buyers (and I don't mean people who get bargain lease rates, I mean buyers) giving up their Lexus and MB's to purchase a Genesis in order for the car to be luxury and we all know that ain't gonna happen...... Well put - maybe your phraseology won't be construed as 'anti-H' - but the fact is is that it might happen (BMW buyers at a Hyundai lot) IF the car is even half as good as the publicists would like you to believe. hjc1 is right, of course, it's a waste of time talking about the thing until there are some reviewed and rated examples, at least. Still haven't even seen results from any EPA FE testing, never mind a real road test. I'm confident that the upcoming BMW 1 series has thousands of preorders, because there is an established historyfor the brand. It would be interesting to know what kind of buyers are preordering a Genesis....
True, a large car that had 250+ HP that could pull 30+ on the highway THAT more than anything else is what has me 'excited'. I'm certainly too old (grown up?) to be out playing speed racer in my Avalon but the occasional 'grins' that come from all that power along with the FE numbers that I see regularly on the trip computer - now THAT would be something else again
"'m certainly too old (grown up?) to be out playing speed racer in my Avalon"
I don't go driving around like an animal either.... however, I have tapped into the reserves a few times and its nice to know that I still get great MPG. What is funny is every since I turned 20K on the clock I seem to be getting about 1 - 2 MPG better than I have been. I was getting 21 mostly all city or gridlock highway my last tank was almost 23. My '03 Av with 60 less HP never got better than 19 - 19.5 with the same driving.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
every since I turned 20K on the clock I seem to be getting about 1 - 2 MPG better than I have been did the 'prevailing westerlies' become 'easterlies'?
True, I can afford something more expensive than the Genesis, but am a bang for the buck guy (you can call me cheap if you prefer :P ).
I'm that was with many things whether bikes, audio equipment, whatever.
In a way, I would be an example for those who say that the Genesis won't draw from perspective Mercedes buyers (I probably wouldn't buy one), but, on the other hand, I was close to purchasing an Infiniti M about a month ago and decided to hold off to check out the Genesis. So, I find it quite reasonable to think that the Genesis will have some customers who might otherwise have considered cars like Acuras, Infinitis, Avalons, and some of the lower level Lexuses and the like.
I would further agree the more image-conscious buyers are not likely to give much thoughts to the Hyundai Genesis, but that sole reason, as vic and others stated, does not make or break the Genesis. I know these are forbidden subjects, but did Phaeton lose its luxury status? Has the RL departed from its luxury classification? I mean, neither of the two examples above have captured anything from the top luxury makers; they are still luxury sedans, are they not?
We’ve all been having such lively debates about abstractions lately, but very few about the actual automotive experience provided by cars on this list. So I visited a Toyota and a Hyundai dealer on a whim, and test drove an Avalon Limited and an Azera Limited back to back.
I visited Toyota first. The Avalon I test drove was a gunmetal gray affair. Its flanks, bereft of any rub strips, looked like lambs waiting for the parking lot slaughter (you can get the strips as a dealer-installed option). Once inside, the equipment list was honkin’ impressive, highlighted by neon gauges, navi, heated AND cooled seats, and keyless entry/ignition. The seats adjusted in a remarkable number of ways too, raising beneath your thighs and behind your lumbar region in addition to the usual grosser adjustments. Even the back seats, just as cavernous as advertised, adjusted usefully for backrest angle.
For the price, however, the interior was a thumb in my eye. Last year’s fetching off-blond fake wood has given way to a crude impersonation of walnut that blights way too many places. The console has a cheap look of fake aluminum, and the dash has an even cheaper look of even fakier aluminum that looked as if its paint would scratch if you stared at it. The radio is pointless hidden behind a cheesy door that probably won’t be closed three times in the life of the car. The dash has a couple of oddly big, flat plains, including one on top that makes the car feel like kissin’ cousin to one of the old GE dustbuster minivans. And as the cherry on the cheesiness sundae, the shifter was mounted so far to the left that my knee was leaning uncomfortably against it -- a needless irritant in a car with enormous overall room.
On the road, the car is impressively ferocious off the line, but disappointingly slow to respond when floored once underway. You can, in fact, hear the engine even at idle, but it’s certainly quiet, with a note that’s neither offensive nor special. One does have to make some allowances here, though, given the car’s outstanding reported gas mileage. Ride isolation is excellent, as you’d expect, with reasonably accurate if totally anesthetized steering. I threw the car full-lock into a couple of low-speed turns, certainly not the raison d’etre for an Avalon, but it displayed surprisingly tolerable levels of roll control and controllability along with a pretty tight turning radius. Like the proverbial dancing elephant, it might not be a great dancer, but the wonder is that it can dance at all.
Overall, this car is a Buick. Better engineered, arguably worse looking inside, and probably more dependably built than the original, but a Buick in its soul. This car has obvious virtues for a certain audience that wants them, with commendable mileage joined by the 3 R’s of room, ride and reliability. It makes sense not only for oldsters, but also salesmen and probably lots of SUV drivers too. It’s just not aimed at me.
Has the RL departed from its luxury classification?
No. The RL while not being a market smash is still a luxury vehicle. It is made from a luxury manufacturer.
image-conscious buyers
Wrong. Those who want the best in class will not stray. Image conscious is a not so subtle put-down of people buy other than Hyundai because you can't understand why people go for Lexus, BMW, MB etc.
but did Phaeton lose its luxury status? I don't think the argument is whether the vehoicle met some sort of imaginary or real 'luxury' standards (because it certainly did) but RATHER was it ever or could it ever meet that classification handicapped as it was by a nameplate. So your Phaeton couldn't lose what it never had. And then does that same set od circumstances also apply to the Genesis?
PS How else do you explain the universal acceptance of the very similar Audi A8 as a 'luxury' car but that we can discuss whether thje Pheaton ever was. Simple one is an Audi, the other a Volkswagen. Toyota makes 'mainstream' cars (just like Hyundai) but Lexus makes luxury cars - the cars could be identical but the 'luxury' distinction would still exist(between Toyota and Lexus)t. Which is the point of all that has been talked about here for quite awhile now - how can we call anything Hyundai makes a 'luxury' car when it definitely is not a luxury brand. Luxury brands do not sell their products for $9500.00.
Wrong. Those who want the best in class will not stray. Image conscious is a not so subtle put-down of people buy other than Hyundai because you can't understand why people go for Lexus, BMW, MB etc.
Image-conscious because someone wouldn't even look at another car from another brand - someone going for a luxury large sedan, a 7er or a S-class but skipping the Japanese LS, for example. That's what I meant, not that I don't understand those buyers - I was one of those buyers, as a matter of fact.
Image-conscious because someone wouldn't even look at another car from another brand - someone going for a luxury large sedan, a 7er or a S-class but skipping the Japanese LS,
Who says they need to? If you substitute Kia do you still get image concious? I'm trying to understand why someone who wants to buy another car and stay within the same brand should be labeled image concious no matter if they are driving a Honda Fit, or a McLaren F1.
No. The RL while not being a market smash is still a luxury vehicle. It is made from a luxury manufacturer.
Read what I wrote. I was referring to another poster which had said the Genesis has to bring customers from other luxury car owners to be considered luxury, which is not really the case. In terms actual substance, no.
You are still on this "only luxury manufacturer can make luxury cars"?
So please tell me, why do people buy cars from luxury brands like Lexus, BMW and MB.
As matter of fact, why did YOU buy cars from them?
I thought it was cool, and other people would share my egoistic view.
Fast forward a few years, I've competely changed. Through my job mainly, I've become an advocate of being a smart shopper, no matter what the price range is, what type of cars are being purchased.
Who says they need to? If you substitute Kia do you still get image concious? I'm trying to understand why someone who wants to buy another car and stay within the same brand should be labeled image concious no matter if they are driving a Honda Fit, or a McLaren F1.
I am talking people who buy cars for others to see; people who care about what others think about their cars; people having no regards about anything else because they are all junk anyway.
You're right, it doesn't matter which car it is, they all apply.
But hey, that's how some people are...but I am just expressing my opinion.
What makes you think that the rest of the luxury car buyers don't think the way like you did? If most of them are also after the badge(s) then why would they defect to something like a Hyundai? Sure they would if they ran into some financial hardships but if Hyundai is counting on those sales for the Genesis then all I can say is: GOOD LUCK!
By the way, there are also many other reason why people buy luxury cars besides just the badge.
Those are the people I was referring to. In a way, I am ridiculing myself (of the past)
I know there are a lot of other reasons, but I was talking about one type in reply to another poster.
I am in agreement, as I've said already those group of people are very unlikely to even have the Genesis in mind, let alone test driving one. That said, I do see some shoppers having done their homework and experiment (i.e. test drive), if not climbing on board. In somewhat of similarity, you could argue that was how Lexus got its start (but let's not get into the comparsion since Pat will tell us to get back on topic )
I've changed my mind. The Genesis is no longer part of this conversation since it is apparently not possible to keep all kinds of off-topic vehicles from being dragged in here while it is under discussion. The off-topic sideshoots apparently are unavoidable as long as it's here.
So we're taking the Genesis out, at least for now. How do you call a vehicle that isn't on the streets "mainstream", anyway.
Let's back up a page or two and find those other interesting vehicles that were being thrown out as "why aren't they in here". I'll add whichever turns up generating the most interest.
Those who need to continue the Genesis head-butting discussion can meet up here: 2008-2009 Hyundai Genesis.
"For the price, however, the interior was a thumb in my eye."
Interiors are such a subjective thing. I think except for the wood the Avalon's interior is great. The dash is expansive and gives a feeling of so much room. The details are just "right" IMO and while I generally agree the door over the radio isn't needed mine is closed quite often. With the steering wheel controls you don't need access to the radio all the time. Look at things such as the stiching on the door panels, the indirect lighting near the sunroof controls, the sliding center armrest, the list goes on and on for me. Head and shoulders above anything else in this class. The reason the gearshift is so close to the driver is so that if you want to play in manual mode it within easy reach. I'm a pretty big guy and never found it obtrusive. As for the aluminum look, I prefer that to just black plastic or worse yet more woodgrain. The finish on mine after two years is perfect.
The lack of side mouldings hasn't proved a problem for me, the two tiny dings I have on mine the mouldings wouldn't have helped a bit. If anything the front end chips a bit too easy. I have quite a few chips on the hood after 20K.
As for the drive you hit it pretty dead on. The Av is no handler, but can be pushed harder than you would expect a big soft car too. As for the slow to respond tranny on your test drive, that is all computer. Once the car learns your driving pattern it will downshift on command and go like heck. This is quite common with newer trannys with "intelligence"
Since the Avalon was always known as the Japanese Buick, your comment is dead on. However, I am 29 and certainly don't feel old driving my Avalon!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
For the most part, I'd have to agree with you. I found the interior in the avy to be just fine.. gauges on the dash are laid out in good form... off hand I can't recite the dimensions between the Lucerne and the avy, but after driving both on the same day, I felt as if the avy had more interior room. The location of the shifter has never been an issue to me. I guess one difference we have would be the "fake wood" look. Personally I favor the "darker" walnut looking trim in the car as opposed to the "blonde" look or even the silver look. But that is just a subjective thing. As for performance, while the avy dosn't take me back to my teenage days of my "Shelby", the combination of more than enough power, combined with the comfort and look of the car, certainly make this car a good buy for the money. My car also lacks the door mouldings, but so far, as a result of parking away from everybody else and alittle luck, so far, not a single door ding. Do have a chip on the hood, but hey, if you drive em on the highway, chips are gonna happen. This is my first Toyota, and so far I like the car just fine.
"Personally I favor the "darker" walnut looking trim in the car as opposed to the "blonde" look or even the silver look."
I have the graphite interior which has the darker of the two wood trims available from 05 - 07. I think it looks much better than the blond also. The '08s have new wood colors along with a chrome strip below. I find the look a big improvement over the 05 - 07.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I have door moldings but it did not save me from someone placing a dent on my door. I think of them a aesthetic touch rather than useful. BTW wait till sept 08 and I would like to hear your opinion on a new Maxima
radio is pointless hidden behind a cheesy door that probably won’t be closed three times in the life of the car. with me, after 3 years and 70000 miles, I will tell you that it is exactly the opposite - all the radios main functions can ba controlled at the steering wheel, the only time that door is opened is to change CD sets, which is rare as well since I listen to the radio much of the time. The beauty of the interior is that is so clean and uncomplicated, egronomically superior IMO - agree with you on the appearance of any kind of plastic 'wood' or even the grey plastic 'aluminum' but don't know how that kinda stuff is avoided even on cars significantly more expensive. BUT this kind of thing does go to show how subjective things like this are - after the drivetrain the interior is the Avalon's best feature IMO, it is the frumpy/humpy exterior that I'd like to see improved
•The point about the steering-wheel audio controls is an excellent one I hadn't thought of. That's one of those things that a quickie test drive can overlook, but which you can get to know and appreciate as you live with the car.
•I'm glad you noted that the Avalon has an adaptive transmission; I didn't know that. My Azera writeup (coming shortly) notes that it does, so it's good that the playing field has been properly leveled on this point. Thanks.
•I hope the nitpicky nature of a review didn't convey that I thought the Avalon's interior was cheap or anything less than comfortable. It's very spacious, quite comfortable, and comes across as fully equipped and expensive.
•Yes, my test car was a Limited.
•My preference for the older car's blond wood was less for the color, more for the better-detailed graining. The new walnut stuff has what I can only describe as little black dashes running through it that are maybe 3/16 long by 1/16 thick that struck me as singularly unconvincing, while the old blond woodgrain looked like it was reproduced from a photo of furniture wood. The latter approach comes off better generally for me, regardless of the base color. (The somewhat translucent plastic of Azera's plood isn't a home run, either.)
After concluding my Avalon test drive (and having the sales manager test me with a few embarrassing system tricks -- “If I turned over this paper and showed you THISPRICE [$30,000] for that Limited, would you buy today?”), I went over to the nearby Hyundai store.
To my surprise, the dealership had only ’08 Azeras in stock. My luck of the draw was a navy Limited with Ultimate package. I’d seen the liver-maroon fake wood that bled all over the interior of the beige Azera, but not this black-and-blondish combo in the flesh. I’m not an enthusiast of black interiors, but this wood tone was much more effective and better grained, too. For that matter, it would probably look better with the beige interior as well, but the spy photos say that good deed will have to wait for ’09. In any case, the prominence of the woodgrain stripe against the black vinyl made its gross misalignment look even worse where the dash met both doors.
Most of the Azera’s interior is impressively luxurious. Particularly noteworthy is the electroluminescent gauge cluster. White gauges, ringed in blue with red needles, deliver a vivid 3D illusion that’s remindful of the original Lexus LS and far flashier than the Avalon’s all-white display. The woven headliner and the gathered-leather seats also look great. On the downside, several little details are inescapably cheaped out. The aluminum-looking console is just as bad as the Avalon’s, though the acres of painted silver-painted plastic above it are mercifully absent. Chrome strips on the doors look rubberized instead of metallic, the door handles are blatantly silver-painted plastic just like the lowliest Sonata, and of course the fake-wood wheel fell from a polymer tree just as the Avalon’s did (and given the reports here of chipping, maybe from a cheaper forest). I didn’t see the color mismatch between the white gauges and the green radio/HVC displays in my daytime drive, but I wouldn’t expect to like that either.
The driver’s seat needed and lacked Avalon’s adjustable thigh support -- the cushion was too short and fell away at the forward edge. It also lacked the Avalon’s seat coolers, which I consider a truly luxurious feature I’d pay extra to get. Rear seat room was excellent, but again, a bit less extravagantly so than the Avalon’s. However, in the important area of overall ergonomics and spatial relationships from the driver’s chair, I found the Azera’s setup much, much more pleasing and intimate-feeling than the oddly angular and off-putting interior architecture of the Toyota. While I understand this is a totally subjective area, for me personally this came close to being an Avalon deal-breaker.
The Azera has traction control. I mention this because when I floored this one from a standing start, very little traction or control ensued as I laid rubber for about 10 feet. The Azera’s engine gets much worse mileage than the Avalon’s, and perhaps not coincidentally, it sounds much better doing it. The rich, European-sounding note under full throttle did much to encourage misbehavior. The tranny was ridiculously tardy in rolling acceleration, and held the higher gear too long on deceleration. The Azera is supposed to have a “learning” feature that adapts to the driver’s habits, though, and this car had only known 57 miles of presumably boulevard test drives, so there may be an alibi here. (Thanks to the readers who noted the Avalon does, too.) As a side note, this 5-speed Mitsubishi box never suffered noticeably from the lack of the Avalon’s sixth cog, though it may be a factor in that gas mileage difference.
The steering was about as numb, and about as accurate, as the Avalon’s. To test the newly revised suspension, I deliberately sought out a couple of pitted back streets. There were absolutely no noises, clunks or evidences of untoward looseness in my brand new test car. On the other hand, there was a subtle but slightly peculiar rhythmic thrumming, at a rate of several little pulses a second, through the seat of my pants when I drove 40-45 on a straight, smooth road --seemingly the product of a chassis that isn’t quite vibration-proof. (Props to the ubiquitous Michael Karesh, who was the first to report this.) Equally surprising was a near-Accord level of tire noise that I’ve never heard anyone else talk about. Maybe I shouldn’t have been so surprised; those are, after all, very wide tires.
So if this is a comparison, who’s the winner? I’m going to wimp out and call it a draw. However, equal does not mean identical. As I mentioned earlier, the Avalon’s wacky ergonomics and its sensation of sometime-pointless size came across to me as a conscious effort to knock out Buick, oddly moreso than today’s real Buicks. The Azera felt much more like a cut-price take on Toyota’s own Lexus ES -- sort of a lukewarm homage to European iron, separated from the real thing by several layers of control anesthetia and Japanese gadgetry. Both go down the road in a beautifully effortless manner. Both are unquestionably big and bourgeois. In truth, neither quite makes you forget you didn’t pay the price for a Mercedes or Lexus, either.
Which one would I personally rather be seen in and live with? The Azera, without a doubt (though I’m tempted to wait for ’09 and hope the American car mimics the Korean model’s fix for the green radio and liver-colored wood). But that just means I’m in Azera’s target audience rather than Avalon’s... YMMV.
Tony - Whether or not I would agree with your reviews remains to be seen. I just wanted to thank you (along with several other contributors) for taking the time to do it in a reasonable, civil manner. Far more worthwhile than some of the seemingly endless "Mine is better than yours" posts that are all too common.
Well...i think it'll make a lot of folks go back to the regular style radar detectors as more and more cars will have this smart cruise feature as time goes on. It makes sense to have it. However, when the police realize that, they'll start using laser speed detectors even more. It's an industry conspiracy to help the cops with their quoatas.
$30K even for a Limited? Assuming without NAV that is right at invoice, and a couple grand under with. A good price in any case, may I ask what part of the country you are in ? That Toyota saleman sounds like he needs to be put out of his misery - I hate sales tactics like that. The transmission behaviors you note has long been a topic on Avalon forums and I suppose must also be on Azera forums - as soon as we have the ability to squeeze an extra mpg or two out of a tranny gear selection & throttle control algorithim, the mfgrs. will take advantage. FE sells. There have been some 'reprogramming' TSBs although I still not sure that this does anything except reset things until the thing relearns again. This the reason why you are finding too high gear selections, downshift delays, 'slow' throttles etc. Unfortunately becoming quite commonplace (and not just Toyota or Hyundai) . My Av's tranny has effectively trained me (not the other way around) to the point that I have no problems with it anymore.
Captain...I like the way you put that, "My Av's tranny has effectively trained me..." I too feel that way about the tranny in my Azera (which took getting used to as it was a 5-spd and I was getting out of the 4-spd in my Sonata). The only real problem I had initially with my tranny was it was shifting from 1st to 2nd at wide open throttle, so it wasn't a smooth shift. Also, it made take offs hard to do subtly. As soon as your foot touched the gas pedal, it would lurch forward. The re-flash took care of that problem and I was able to have smoother take offs as well as smoother 1st to 2nd gear shifts as well.
One thing I can say about anyone that drives a car with an automatic tranny. Eventually, you learn to anticipate when you're going to want that up/down shift to happen and you take action accordingly. No...it won't happen 100% of the time, but for the most part a driver that's paying attention will pretty much be in control. The better you know your car and it's traits under certain conditions, the less frustration you'll have because you'll know how to adjust.
Fortunately for me, the Shiftronic feature is at my fingertips. Instead of waiting on the tranny, I can give my input and make it happen under more control. For normal driving...I leave it in "auto mode", when I'm merging into traffic or exiting a highway...I'll put it into "manual mode" just in case I need a quick down shift to pick up speed or to help me slow down. It does come in handy.
the first Avalons also with a 5 speed, the latest ones with 6 - but both with the manual 'shiftronic' option as well. Don't find myself manually shifting the car at all. Interestingly there was no change in FE ratings because of the extra tranny gear.
I'm in the Chicago area. And the $30k come-on price was even more outrageous than it sounds, because it was on a car with navi.
I just calmly said to the guy, "No, because this isn't the time for me to buy a car." Then I laughed and complimented him on the cleverness of the trick. This loosened him up a bit, and I told him I recognized that the stunt was the equivalent of the old "Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?... Oh? Then would you have sex with me for a dollar?... No? Well, we've established that you're interested. Now it's just a matter of negotiating the price."
And then I took three showers to get the slime off.
only three? Down here in the Houston area (primarily because of distributor 'option packs) full boat Limited will tickle the heck out of $40k and 'sell' in the mid 30s. Usual dealer doesn't have very many in stock. Down here in Texas we're famous for 'shooting first' - you have a particular car salesman you'd like to buy a plane ticket for? .
Do you think going to a 6-spd tranny was a waste for Toyota? I mean...6th gear is nothing more than overdrive (at least it is on my Outlook). I think it's an attempt to help the engine work less at highway speeds.
I think it is a marketing advantage if anything - my 5 speed Av turns 2100 rpm in 5th at 70 and I believe the 6 speed does the same in 6th - why I guess there is no FE difference, there is simply one more intermediate gear. The Camry has always had the 6 speed and did experience some problems with that tranny. A few thousand of them that had specifically been built in Japan had some improperely installed sanp rings or something - shows you can never tell, I guess ,but it is the reason why Toyota is off CRs 'automatically' recommended list.
"Do you think going to a 6-spd tranny was a waste for Toyota?"
Not at all. Made no sense for the Camry to have the six speed and the Av to have the 5 speed. Like Captain said more for marketing than anything else. I drove an '08 Av and an '07 Camry both with the 6 speed and really didn't notice any difference from my Av with the 5 speed. Knowing Toyota the six speed probably is cheaper to produce and has less parts than the older 5 speed.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Comments
Interesting concept...but how would you do this? Everything said so far about the Genesis indicates is a well equipped car at a bargain price so people would move up to it who can't afford a Lexus, MB, etc. That would make it not a luxury car but a "mainstream large sedan" that may be better equipped than most. You'd have to see luxury car buyers (and I don't mean people who get bargain lease rates, I mean buyers) giving up their Lexus and MB's to purchase a Genesis in order for the car to be luxury and we all know that ain't gonna happen......
True, a large car that had 250+ HP that could pull 30+ on the highway was unheard of until the current crop of sedans. Hopefully, things will only get better. I still wish for fresher offerings from GM and Ford, but the midsize market is what they focus on. Which, of course, they should that is where the bulk of the dollars are!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Well put - maybe your phraseology won't be construed as 'anti-H' - but the fact is is that it might happen (BMW buyers at a Hyundai lot) IF the car is even half as good as the publicists would like you to believe. hjc1 is right, of course, it's a waste of time talking about the thing until there are some reviewed and rated examples, at least. Still haven't even seen results from any EPA FE testing, never mind a real road test.
I'm confident that the upcoming BMW 1 series has thousands of preorders, because there is an established historyfor the brand. It would be interesting to know what kind of buyers are preordering a Genesis....
THAT more than anything else is what has me 'excited'. I'm certainly too old (grown up?) to be out playing speed racer in my Avalon but the occasional 'grins' that come from all that power along with the FE numbers that I see regularly on the trip computer - now THAT would be something else again
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!! :shades:
The majority of G8's, (like Genesis) sold in the US will be 6 cyl. anyway at or near 30K.
I don't go driving around like an animal either.... however, I have tapped into the reserves a few times
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I thought I read that the V8 will be around 30K?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
did the 'prevailing westerlies' become 'easterlies'?
The G8 GT (V8) tops out at less than $33k.
Talk about value!! :surprise:
1) You are assuming the demographic of the Genesis, or owners of other simiarly priced vehicles can't afford a luxury brand vehicle.
we all know that ain't gonna happen......
2) Referring to above, you are assuming there have never been a migration from a luxury brand to a non-luxury brand.
I'm that was with many things whether bikes, audio equipment, whatever.
In a way, I would be an example for those who say that the Genesis won't draw from perspective Mercedes buyers (I probably wouldn't buy one), but, on the other hand, I was close to purchasing an Infiniti M about a month ago and decided to hold off to check out the Genesis. So, I find it quite reasonable to think that the Genesis will have some customers who might otherwise have considered cars like Acuras, Infinitis, Avalons, and some of the lower level Lexuses and the like.
I could end up with a Honda Fit...who knows?
I would further agree the more image-conscious buyers are not likely to give much thoughts to the Hyundai Genesis, but that sole reason, as vic and others stated, does not make or break the Genesis. I know these are forbidden subjects, but did Phaeton lose its luxury status? Has the RL departed from its luxury classification? I mean, neither of the two examples above have captured anything from the top luxury makers; they are still luxury sedans, are they not?
I visited Toyota first. The Avalon I test drove was a gunmetal gray affair. Its flanks, bereft of any rub strips, looked like lambs waiting for the parking lot slaughter (you can get the strips as a dealer-installed option). Once inside, the equipment list was honkin’ impressive, highlighted by neon gauges, navi, heated AND cooled seats, and keyless entry/ignition. The seats adjusted in a remarkable number of ways too, raising beneath your thighs and behind your lumbar region in addition to the usual grosser adjustments. Even the back seats, just as cavernous as advertised, adjusted usefully for backrest angle.
For the price, however, the interior was a thumb in my eye. Last year’s fetching off-blond fake wood has given way to a crude impersonation of walnut that blights way too many places. The console has a cheap look of fake aluminum, and the dash has an even cheaper look of even fakier aluminum that looked as if its paint would scratch if you stared at it. The radio is pointless hidden behind a cheesy door that probably won’t be closed three times in the life of the car. The dash has a couple of oddly big, flat plains, including one on top that makes the car feel like kissin’ cousin to one of the old GE dustbuster minivans. And as the cherry on the cheesiness sundae, the shifter was mounted so far to the left that my knee was leaning uncomfortably against it -- a needless irritant in a car with enormous overall room.
On the road, the car is impressively ferocious off the line, but disappointingly slow to respond when floored once underway. You can, in fact, hear the engine even at idle, but it’s certainly quiet, with a note that’s neither offensive nor special. One does have to make some allowances here, though, given the car’s outstanding reported gas mileage. Ride isolation is excellent, as you’d expect, with reasonably accurate if totally anesthetized steering. I threw the car full-lock into a couple of low-speed turns, certainly not the raison d’etre for an Avalon, but it displayed surprisingly tolerable levels of roll control and controllability along with a pretty tight turning radius. Like the proverbial dancing elephant, it might not be a great dancer, but the wonder is that it can dance at all.
Overall, this car is a Buick. Better engineered, arguably worse looking inside, and probably more dependably built than the original, but a Buick in its soul. This car has obvious virtues for a certain audience that wants them, with commendable mileage joined by the 3 R’s of room, ride and reliability. It makes sense not only for oldsters, but also salesmen and probably lots of SUV drivers too. It’s just not aimed at me.
Azera next.
No. The RL while not being a market smash is still a luxury vehicle. It is made from a luxury manufacturer.
image-conscious buyers
Wrong. Those who want the best in class will not stray. Image conscious is a not so subtle put-down of people buy other than Hyundai because you can't understand why people go for Lexus, BMW, MB etc.
I don't think the argument is whether the vehoicle met some sort of imaginary or real 'luxury' standards (because it certainly did) but RATHER was it ever or could it ever meet that classification handicapped as it was by a nameplate. So your Phaeton couldn't lose what it never had. And then does that same set od circumstances also apply to the Genesis?
Image-conscious because someone wouldn't even look at another car from another brand - someone going for a luxury large sedan, a 7er or a S-class but skipping the Japanese LS, for example. That's what I meant, not that I don't understand those buyers - I was one of those buyers, as a matter of fact.
So please tell me, why do people buy cars from luxury brands like Lexus, BMW and MB.
As matter of fact, why did YOU buy cars from them?
Who says they need to? If you substitute Kia do you still get image concious? I'm trying to understand why someone who wants to buy another car and stay within the same brand should be labeled image concious no matter if they are driving a Honda Fit, or a McLaren F1.
Read what I wrote. I was referring to another poster which had said the Genesis has to bring customers from other luxury car owners to be considered luxury, which is not really the case. In terms actual substance, no.
You are still on this "only luxury manufacturer can make luxury cars"?
Yes, that is my opinion.
Okay, I think I see what's problem here...
If in "luxury cars" the word "luxury" is an adjective and "cars" is a noun then you are right, the above statement would be false.
However, if "luxury cars" the two words combined together and serve as a noun then IMO the above state would be true.
So in simple term, the Genesis would be a "luxurious" car but still not a "luxury" car.
As matter of fact, why did YOU buy cars from them?
I thought it was cool, and other people would share my egoistic view.
Fast forward a few years, I've competely changed. Through my job mainly, I've become an advocate of being a smart shopper, no matter what the price range is, what type of cars are being purchased.
I am talking people who buy cars for others to see; people who care about what others think about their cars; people having no regards about anything else because they are all junk anyway.
You're right, it doesn't matter which car it is, they all apply.
But hey, that's how some people are...but I am just expressing my opinion.
I apologize Pat we are off-topic again
Okay, so you went for the badge.
What makes you think that the rest of the luxury car buyers don't think the way like you did? If most of them are also after the badge(s) then why would they defect to something like a Hyundai? Sure they would if they ran into some financial hardships but if Hyundai is counting on those sales for the Genesis then all I can say is: GOOD LUCK!
By the way, there are also many other reason why people buy luxury cars besides just the badge.
Which trim of the Avalon did you test drive? It sounds like the Limited.
Those are the people I was referring to. In a way, I am ridiculing myself (of the past)
I know there are a lot of other reasons, but I was talking about one type in reply to another poster.
I am in agreement, as I've said already those group of people are very unlikely to even have the Genesis in mind, let alone test driving one. That said, I do see some shoppers having done their homework and experiment (i.e. test drive), if not climbing on board. In somewhat of similarity, you could argue that was how Lexus got its start (but let's not get into the comparsion since Pat will tell us to get back on topic
I've changed my mind. The Genesis is no longer part of this conversation since it is apparently not possible to keep all kinds of off-topic vehicles from being dragged in here while it is under discussion. The off-topic sideshoots apparently are unavoidable as long as it's here.
So we're taking the Genesis out, at least for now. How do you call a vehicle that isn't on the streets "mainstream", anyway.
Let's back up a page or two and find those other interesting vehicles that were being thrown out as "why aren't they in here". I'll add whichever turns up generating the most interest.
Those who need to continue the Genesis
head-buttingdiscussion can meet up here: 2008-2009 Hyundai Genesis.Thanks.
Perhaps you could drive some of the others in this category and give us your reactions to them as well.
Who else is willing to undertake actual test drives of some of the cars in the category and give us this kind of detailed reaction?
Interiors are such a subjective thing. I think except for the wood the Avalon's interior is great. The dash is expansive and gives a feeling of so much room. The details are just "right" IMO and while I generally agree the door over the radio isn't needed mine is closed quite often. With the steering wheel controls you don't need access to the radio all the time. Look at things such as the stiching on the door panels, the indirect lighting near the sunroof controls, the sliding center armrest, the list goes on and on for me. Head and shoulders above anything else in this class. The reason the gearshift is so close to the driver is so that if you want to play in manual mode it within easy reach. I'm a pretty big guy and never found it obtrusive. As for the aluminum look, I prefer that to just black plastic or worse yet more woodgrain. The finish on mine after two years is perfect.
The lack of side mouldings hasn't proved a problem for me, the two tiny dings I have on mine the mouldings wouldn't have helped a bit. If anything the front end chips a bit too easy. I have quite a few chips on the hood after 20K.
As for the drive you hit it pretty dead on. The Av is no handler, but can be pushed harder than you would expect a big soft car too. As for the slow to respond tranny on your test drive, that is all computer. Once the car learns your driving pattern it will downshift on command and go like heck. This is quite common with newer trannys with "intelligence"
Since the Avalon was always known as the Japanese Buick, your comment is dead on. However, I am 29 and certainly don't feel old driving my Avalon!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Roland
I have the graphite interior which has the darker of the two wood trims available from 05 - 07. I think it looks much better than the blond also. The '08s have new wood colors along with a chrome strip below. I find the look a big improvement over the 05 - 07.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
with me, after 3 years and 70000 miles, I will tell you that it is exactly the opposite - all the radios main functions can ba controlled at the steering wheel, the only time that door is opened is to change CD sets, which is rare as well since I listen to the radio much of the time. The beauty of the interior is that is so clean and uncomplicated, egronomically superior IMO - agree with you on the appearance of any kind of plastic 'wood' or even the grey plastic 'aluminum' but don't know how that kinda stuff is avoided even on cars significantly more expensive. BUT this kind of thing does go to show how subjective things like this are - after the drivetrain the interior is the Avalon's best feature IMO, it is the frumpy/humpy exterior that I'd like to see improved
•The point about the steering-wheel audio controls is an excellent one I hadn't thought of. That's one of those things that a quickie test drive can overlook, but which you can get to know and appreciate as you live with the car.
•I'm glad you noted that the Avalon has an adaptive transmission; I didn't know that. My Azera writeup (coming shortly) notes that it does, so it's good that the playing field has been properly leveled on this point. Thanks.
•I hope the nitpicky nature of a review didn't convey that I thought the Avalon's interior was cheap or anything less than comfortable. It's very spacious, quite comfortable, and comes across as fully equipped and expensive.
•Yes, my test car was a Limited.
•My preference for the older car's blond wood was less for the color, more for the better-detailed graining. The new walnut stuff has what I can only describe as little black dashes running through it that are maybe 3/16 long by 1/16 thick that struck me as singularly unconvincing, while the old blond woodgrain looked like it was reproduced from a photo of furniture wood. The latter approach comes off better generally for me, regardless of the base color. (The somewhat translucent plastic of Azera's plood isn't a home run, either.)
Part 2 coming shortly. Thanks for the comments.
To my surprise, the dealership had only ’08 Azeras in stock. My luck of the draw was a navy Limited with Ultimate package. I’d seen the liver-maroon fake wood that bled all over the interior of the beige Azera, but not this black-and-blondish combo in the flesh. I’m not an enthusiast of black interiors, but this wood tone was much more effective and better grained, too. For that matter, it would probably look better with the beige interior as well, but the spy photos say that good deed will have to wait for ’09. In any case, the prominence of the woodgrain stripe against the black vinyl made its gross misalignment look even worse where the dash met both doors.
Most of the Azera’s interior is impressively luxurious. Particularly noteworthy is the electroluminescent gauge cluster. White gauges, ringed in blue with red needles, deliver a vivid 3D illusion that’s remindful of the original Lexus LS and far flashier than the Avalon’s all-white display. The woven headliner and the gathered-leather seats also look great. On the downside, several little details are inescapably cheaped out. The aluminum-looking console is just as bad as the Avalon’s, though the acres of painted silver-painted plastic above it are mercifully absent. Chrome strips on the doors look rubberized instead of metallic, the door handles are blatantly silver-painted plastic just like the lowliest Sonata, and of course the fake-wood wheel fell from a polymer tree just as the Avalon’s did (and given the reports here of chipping, maybe from a cheaper forest). I didn’t see the color mismatch between the white gauges and the green radio/HVC displays in my daytime drive, but I wouldn’t expect to like that either.
The driver’s seat needed and lacked Avalon’s adjustable thigh support -- the cushion was too short and fell away at the forward edge. It also lacked the Avalon’s seat coolers, which I consider a truly luxurious feature I’d pay extra to get. Rear seat room was excellent, but again, a bit less extravagantly so than the Avalon’s. However, in the important area of overall ergonomics and spatial relationships from the driver’s chair, I found the Azera’s setup much, much more pleasing and intimate-feeling than the oddly angular and off-putting interior architecture of the Toyota. While I understand this is a totally subjective area, for me personally this came close to being an Avalon deal-breaker.
The Azera has traction control. I mention this because when I floored this one from a standing start, very little traction or control ensued as I laid rubber for about 10 feet. The Azera’s engine gets much worse mileage than the Avalon’s, and perhaps not coincidentally, it sounds much better doing it. The rich, European-sounding note under full throttle did much to encourage misbehavior. The tranny was ridiculously tardy in rolling acceleration, and held the higher gear too long on deceleration. The Azera is supposed to have a “learning” feature that adapts to the driver’s habits, though, and this car had only known 57 miles of presumably boulevard test drives, so there may be an alibi here. (Thanks to the readers who noted the Avalon does, too.) As a side note, this 5-speed Mitsubishi box never suffered noticeably from the lack of the Avalon’s sixth cog, though it may be a factor in that gas mileage difference.
The steering was about as numb, and about as accurate, as the Avalon’s. To test the newly revised suspension, I deliberately sought out a couple of pitted back streets. There were absolutely no noises, clunks or evidences of untoward looseness in my brand new test car. On the other hand, there was a subtle but slightly peculiar rhythmic thrumming, at a rate of several little pulses a second, through the seat of my pants when I drove 40-45 on a straight, smooth road --seemingly the product of a chassis that isn’t quite vibration-proof. (Props to the ubiquitous Michael Karesh, who was the first to report this.) Equally surprising was a near-Accord level of tire noise that I’ve never heard anyone else talk about. Maybe I shouldn’t have been so surprised; those are, after all, very wide tires.
So if this is a comparison, who’s the winner? I’m going to wimp out and call it a draw. However, equal does not mean identical. As I mentioned earlier, the Avalon’s wacky ergonomics and its sensation of sometime-pointless size came across to me as a conscious effort to knock out Buick, oddly moreso than today’s real Buicks. The Azera felt much more like a cut-price take on Toyota’s own Lexus ES -- sort of a lukewarm homage to European iron, separated from the real thing by several layers of control anesthetia and Japanese gadgetry. Both go down the road in a beautifully effortless manner. Both are unquestionably big and bourgeois. In truth, neither quite makes you forget you didn’t pay the price for a Mercedes or Lexus, either.
Which one would I personally rather be seen in and live with? The Azera, without a doubt (though I’m tempted to wait for ’09 and hope the American car mimics the Korean model’s fix for the green radio and liver-colored wood). But that just means I’m in Azera’s target audience rather than Avalon’s... YMMV.
The transmission behaviors you note has long been a topic on Avalon forums and I suppose must also be on Azera forums - as soon as we have the ability to squeeze an extra mpg or two out of a tranny gear selection & throttle control algorithim, the mfgrs. will take advantage. FE sells. There have been some 'reprogramming' TSBs although I still not sure that this does anything except reset things until the thing relearns again. This the reason why you are finding too high gear selections, downshift delays, 'slow' throttles etc. Unfortunately becoming quite commonplace (and not just Toyota or Hyundai) . My Av's tranny has effectively trained me (not the other way around) to the point that I have no problems with it anymore.
One thing I can say about anyone that drives a car with an automatic tranny. Eventually, you learn to anticipate when you're going to want that up/down shift to happen and you take action accordingly. No...it won't happen 100% of the time, but for the most part a driver that's paying attention will pretty much be in control. The better you know your car and it's traits under certain conditions, the less frustration you'll have because you'll know how to adjust.
Fortunately for me, the Shiftronic feature is at my fingertips. Instead of waiting on the tranny, I can give my input and make it happen under more control. For normal driving...I leave it in "auto mode", when I'm merging into traffic or exiting a highway...I'll put it into "manual mode" just in case I need a quick down shift to pick up speed or to help me slow down. It does come in handy.
I just calmly said to the guy, "No, because this isn't the time for me to buy a car." Then I laughed and complimented him on the cleverness of the trick. This loosened him up a bit, and I told him I recognized that the stunt was the equivalent of the old "Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?... Oh? Then would you have sex with me for a dollar?... No? Well, we've established that you're interested. Now it's just a matter of negotiating the price."
And then I took three showers to get the slime off.
Not at all. Made no sense for the Camry to have the six speed and the Av to have the 5 speed. Like Captain said more for marketing than anything else. I drove an '08 Av and an '07 Camry both with the 6 speed and really didn't notice any difference from my Av with the 5 speed. Knowing Toyota the six speed probably is cheaper to produce and has less parts than the older 5 speed.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve