I don't know about you guys, but if it's the same car, I'd rather get the one without the emblem for thousands of dollars less
Me two, for an equivalent machine. Based on every offering from Hyundai to date, it seems pay less, get less. But the market will say whether these two machines....3 series or Genesis, or 5 series and Genesis or Tessterosa and Gensis.... are in fact equals or not.
When Mitsubishi had the Diamante...they were still having problems. At least with Hyundai, before jumping out there and creating the Genesis...they created the Azera to show that they can offer touches of luxury, what did Mitsubishi do?
Hyundai...yes, a crap-tacular past, but...with a present that looks promising and who knows what the future holds. If today's products are any indication, I would say a bright future.
It is possible that the Genesis could end up like the Diamante and the others, but with Hyundai's committment...I think it'll fare better. That's just a feeling I have, however...I could be wrong.
Yes, the marketplace said it wasn't a 740/745 beater even at a cut-rate price. Which get's back to my original comment, it takes more than doo-dads to make a luxury car.
Of course not, but it's a good start. The Avalon really is a bit off, even in terms of the options list. About the only thing the Avalon does well, it doesn't get killed in depreciation like the LS, at a rate of 21% a year.
If Hyundai made an extremely fast coupe and called it by their own name, would they have a true supercar?
Because Chevy does.
Which brings me to my point: It's all about the car. Bringing up the Diamante and Millennia is bogus because the cars themselves didn't have a fully competitive set of luxury-car attributes -- they were FWD cars with fake wood. By contrast, the Phaeton WAS a real luxury car. The fact it was poorly marketed and sloppily built doesn't negate that. It simply explains why it was an UNSUCCESSFUL luxury car.
In fact, you could do worse than to use those two specs as your benchmark: Is it FWD, and does it lack real wood? If so, you merely have a mainstream large sedan (how about that, Pat? ). By that standard, here's what you get:
NOT LUXURY: Audi A3 Acura TL Millennia Diamante Avalon Azera
HALF IN, HALF OUT: Lexus ES (probably in because of the marque) Cadillac DTS (probably in because of size and price) Lincoln Town Car (RWD but no wood -- probably out on overall merit) FWD Lincolns (wood but no RWD -- lack other attributes, so probably out)
Well, wake me up (from the tomb...) when the Genesis had enjoyed 60 years of success like that Chevy sports car you were talking about...
By the way, although RWD is the "right" wheel drive but that factor alone doesn't make or break a luxury car. I would argue very hard if a FWD Volvo S80 is not a luxury car but the Town Car is.
is not mainstream no matter how you slice it. Please drop them from this conversation and feel free to join any of the other luxury focused discussions that are well underway.
The one vehicle I think we have to give a pass to for now is the Genesis because the assumed pricepoint seems to put it in the mainstream range, regardless of who does or does not want to apply the "luxury" tag to it.
The cars that clearly belong in the luxury or near-luxury class do not belong here.
so where does this leave something like a Genesis? A 'luxury' car simply because it is RWD and supposedly uses some silly wood in the interior? And a car that is sold for something about $35k? The 'price' of admission is not high enough - THAT (the price) would disqualify it in my mind along with its association with genuinely 'cheap' cars sharing the same label. If the $40k ES is a luxury car 'because of the marque' as you say, then the Genesis can't be one for the same reason. Ford has never made a 'luxury' car, neither has Chevrolet/Toyota/Nissan/Honda, and nor will Hyundai - a 'mainstream' sedan and a 'luxury' sedan are contradictions in terms.
So in order to be admitted into the luxury segement, the car has to be at least xx,xxx dollars. That may be the norm but certainly there are no rules state such. The Genesis is not the norm, it's meant to break the game as we know it
Why can we just wait till the Genesis is in the dealers showroom and then we can determine what it should be called...... Let the public decide if this is a Lux car or not. All these post about a car that's not even out yet ??????? Seems to me to be a waste of time covering something that's not even available and arguing about it.................................
The GT-R doesn't belong here and is a whole different animal altogether. The only similarity - both cars are the most expensive cars of their respective brands. Nissan even shows up to the most expensive Infiniti car, with the pricing passes the M by a mile. By the way, good luck getting one, as only 1,500 units are expected coming to our shore this year.
Anyway, back to the Genesis:
The Genesis offers a couple of more doo-dads than the average car at that price point.
Sure. Of course. The Genesis is just like the large sedans with a few additional features.
Right...no wonder people thought the earth was flat years ago, or more recently, Toyota/Honda was still junk.
Hyundai is supposed to be "the one" like Neo is in the Matrix?
Is it just me or that idea is a little (just a little) bit unrealistic?
The reason I suggested those two attributes as the shorthand test of a luxury car is, quite simply, because they usually signify that the car (not the badge, not the name, not the image -- the CAR) has the critical mass of other luxury attributes as well.
"Where does this leave the Genesis?" Clearly in the luxury class. How else can you describe a sedan with a Lexicon stereo, rear-seat A/C vents in the C PILLARS, hand-stitched leather on the dash, BMW-spec suspension all around, and fine materials specified everywhere?
I don't know if the Genesis is a game-breaker, but it's certainly in the game. You don't become the #2 most-viewed YouTube video OF ANY KIND, as the Genesis did on one recent day, unless you're arousing some serious attention.
"Silly wood"? It's the same silly material that connotes luxury in every car marque from Jag to Merc to Caddy to Rolls. The only silly wood is the kind that doesn't grow on trees. And the only silly posts are the ones that trust all those honest TV ads instead of their own lyin' eyes.
and we will definitely parts ways here - anything and everything now made or made in the future with a 'Hyundai' marque can never and will never be a 'luxury' car in the same way that many many other brands can and do not. It's not about real of fake wood ( a curious qualification only because it has nothing to do with what is truly IN a car) or the drive wheel layout and certainly not about any other doodads - it is about brand perception (and price) - which unfortunately leaves Hyundai no higher up the 'luxury' scale than Chevy or Ford. And BTW a 'BMW spec' suspension does not a BMW make - you 'H' guys seem to think that by copying a spec. sheet, that the Koreans will magically acquire what it took the Germans decades to develop. I would suspect no way - perhaps wishful thinking - but then again, we haven't seen even the first car yet - only some rather ambitious advertising claims which do mean nothing.
This notion a luxury car HAS to be under a luxury marque is abosutely ridiculous, just as much as every car under a luxury marque is somehow luxury.
As a suggestion, you might want to say "ridiculous to you". Can you name one Lexus vehicle that isn't luxury or entry level luxury? BMW? Infiniti? Acura? Cadillac? And why? Not a car under these marquees is not at least some version of an entry level or more, in terms of refinement, and engineering and equally as important the brand, which has built it's reputation on it's cars.
You of course are free to disagree that any of the above aren't luxury, but you would be in the minority. BTW, the H design boxer engine does not make it the equal of a Porsche designed engine.
While none of the above vehicles used are germane to this conversation the content of the Genesis is greater than these mainstream vehicles. But in my opinion a vehicle is more than the sum of it's doo-dads.
1) "You 'H' guys seem to think...." I do not now, nor have I ever owned, bought, paid for, designed, built, bought or sold a Hyundai. I am not an "H" guy -- in fact, I own a Nissan and a Honda. Not everyone is motivated by an agenda.
2) "We haven't seen even the first car yet." I have personally seen, inspected and sat in a Hyundai Genesis at the Chicago Auto Show. While this is not as valid as driving a production model, it does suggest you might want to choose your words a bit more carefully.
Beyond that, I'm amused at the verbal contortions involved in reducing powertrain and chassis engineering, content levels and materials quality to the level of "doodads" (a point I already clarified in detail in post #5592). Not that doodads don't matter: Decades ago, all the talk from German-car fanboys was how the Japanese brought nothing to the game except cupholders. Now, whaddaya know, the Germans have cupholders, so I guess they're important after all.
Now you are including entry-level luxury classification all of the sudden? Fine, let's see what entry-level looks like. Here is an comparison test of 13 entry level luxury vehicles from 1997 by PM:
I am in the minority with some others here and the industry people because the average consumer doesn't even have the slightest clue about the basics of a car. Just the other day, I stopped to help out a S-class owner. He didn't even know how to pop open the hood. So when someone tells me, let the market speaks, I am terrified with a chill tingling deep down
I expect you to see it but still to you, the Genesis is apparently even under entry level luxury :sick:
FWIW, I would actually put a few of the large sedans (top trims) here as possible entry level luxury candidates.
Now you are including entry-level luxury classification all of the sudden? Fine, let's what entry-level looks like, here is an comparison test of 13 entry level luxury vehicles from 1997 by PM
I don't understand your comment. really :confuse. I agree the Honda Accord is just as entry level as an Oldsmobile Aurora. But then neither the Accord, Aurora or Genesis has a big brother luxury sedan to look up to. So I would call them upscale sedans.
Again, why does everything has to come with some boundaries? The Mitsubishi Diamante and Mazda Millenia was classified as entry-level luxury, the Volkswagen Phaeton was classified as luxury, the Genesis somehow gets sacked by you as a large sedan only.
Not only that, Accord is now somehow an upscale sedan and in the same league as the Genesis. What kind of classification is this?
Again, why does everything has to come with some boundaries?
This is the way I view things.
The Mitsubishi Diamante and Mazda Millenia was considered as entry-level luxury, the Volkswagen Phaeton was considered luxury, the Genesis somehow gets sacked by you as a large sedan only.
I never considered the Mitsu and Mazda as entry level luxury, they had no luxury siblings. The Phaenton looked the part, but there was something wrong. The Genesis is definitely upscale as are a number of other vehicles. Leather does not make a luxury vehicle. You classify things different from me. If one calls the Mitsu entry level, I would think the Accord can hang in there as well.
If you consider the Accord to be upscale, then that upscale list would be very very long...
You're the first person to compare the Accord to the Genesis, however.
The only thing wrong with the Phaeton is the price, otherwise it's a fantastic LUXURY sedan.
In the rarest case you would actually go experience the Genesis when it arrives, you will find out it's more than just doodads, or whatever you call it.
you know I once had a Chevrolet w/independent AC front and rear, solid teak dash /and consoles, drop down DVD players, a stereo that made my home system look bad, a RWD V8 and enough overstuffed leather to fill a furniture store. And even the MSRP was appropriately ridiculous at over 50 large - could this have been Chevrolet's first luxury sedan or was it a Suburban? A luxury vehicle must be something MORE than a bunch of options/mechanical specs and is, perhaps even unfairly, something inherent in a name. Tell somebody you have just spend $40 grand on a Hyundai, their first thought (after 'cheap cars') will be to send you to a funny farm, tell them you spend the same money on a Lexus their first thought will be 'good and expensive car'. The Genesis will become a 'luxury' car when it is perceived as such and those folks that buy those kind of vehicles are first seen at the Hyundai dealers, not before. Don't get me wrong it might happen this way eventually, but for now there can be no such thing as a 'luxury' Hyundai - that too being a contradiction in terms.
Look, guys - we're all over the place. Please compare mainstream sedans to mainstream sedans within the general framework we've been working. For starters we can get back to the list of the cars at the top of the page.
Continued conversation about BMWs, Accords, near-luxury, luxury and other off-topic vehicles will get your post removed from here on.
For our purposes, "mainstream" is defined as ~$30k, give or take a bit. Large is large and we're not including the Accord here because it isn't normally compared to the cars we're talking about, it's compared in the midsize class. A few new inches has not changed that reality.
You should take advantage of the many discussions in the Auto News board for continuing conversations about brands in general. This is not the place.
It is confusing about what class cars fit into these days. The new big car from the Japanese manufacturer (which has a plant in Ohio) and which shall remain nameless here, is pretty big and as mainstream as they come. They are all over the place. :shades:
1) "You 'H' guys seem to think...." I do not now, nor have I ever owned, bought, paid for, designed, built, bought or sold a Hyundai. I am not an "H" guy -- in fact, I own a Nissan and a Honda. Not everyone is motivated by an agenda.
2) "We haven't seen even the first car yet." I have personally seen, inspected and sat in a Hyundai Genesis at the Chicago Auto Show. While this is not as valid as driving a production model, it does suggest you might want to choose your words a bit more carefully.
Beyond that, I'm amused at the verbal contortions involved in reducing powertrain and chassis engineering, content levels and materials quality to the level of "doodads" (a point I already clarified in detail in post #5592). Not that doodads don't matter: Decades ago, all the talk from German-car fanboys was how the Japanese brought nothing to the game except cupholders. Now, whaddaya know, the Germans have cupholders, so I guess they're important after all.
You took the words right out of my mouth. You are right on.
Actually, I joined in 1999. After Edmunds' upgraded it's software all members who joined before a certain date was set to April 13, 2001. You and I are "old-timers".
The main attributes of what those two cars represent are much much different, if you are objective enough. Even attributes of large entry-luxury cars here are different than the said car you mentioned, of what they are to represent...
"For our purposes, "mainstream" is defined as ~$30k, give or take a bit. Large is large"
Since this is the Azera thread, by your definition why are Genesis posts not deleted?
Otherwise, why not include 300 with Charger? Or Sable with Taurus?
Mainstream is simply that, and some manufactures have more than one choice available. They should however include only what you can consider, test drive and buy now...not a model months away from even being in the US.
Fact: The Genesis is a large sedan and will start at $30,000 or so.
Uncontroversial opinion: The Genesis will deliver the highest level of mechanical sophistication and the most comprehensive standard equipment ever offered in a large sedan at that price.
Educated personal opinion: Never mind whether the Genesis is a "true luxury sedan." The fact that it can even inspire an argument around that question is, itself, powerful testimony that it promises to be a very considerable achievement in mainstream automaking -- all the moreso given where that achievement is coming from.
Can we all agree on that?
(Edited to say "ever offered in a LARGE sedan at that price." With respect to the moderators, we don't need another argument about how it stacks up against the 3 Series.)
Educated personal opinion: Never mind whether the Genesis is a "true luxury sedan." The fact that it can even inspire an argument around that question is, itself, powerful testimony that it promises to be a very considerable achievement in mainstream automaking -- all the moreso given where that achievement is coming from.
In the same vein the stating the Accord is an entry level sedan inspires a bit of opinion. I think the Genesis is a luxury sedan the same way the Accord is an entry level sedan. Of course, this is only my Vote With My Dollars opinon. We'll have to see how it stacks up in a year to the rest of world.
Otherwise, why not include 300 with Charger? Or Sable with Taurus? and...why isn't the Pontiac G8 here - a car that we'll be seeing on the road before Genesis, and is a direct competitor to the Charger in size, layout, price, power, etc.
I think we all can't get off the Genesis is because the "mainstream" large car market really isn't that great. Aside from the Avalon and Azera there really isn't anything remotely exciting.
Lucerne: Nice car, but, older design and antique engines Impala: same as above and rental fleet king Charger/300: great V8 thats where it ends Taurus: OK, but, everyone knows its a 500 with a new engine (based on an old Volvo) Azera: Great car, great price, lagging behind only in FE and resale Avalon: Top of the class, but pricey and starting to age with no update until 2010. Maxima: Altima is so close here makes it hard to spend the extra $ G8: Hardly will be mainstream GM will barely be able to produce any, making it a niche vehicle at best think GTO from a few years back.
Uncontroversial opinion: The Genesis will deliver the highest level of mechanical sophistication this may be true but it also may not - HOW DO YOU KNOW- by reading a spec. sheet or by sitting in one at an auto show? Nobody's even road tested one yet. The Chrysler 300/Charger has a very sophisticated and well engineered suspension system borrowed from Mercedes Benz, the car should 'deliver' the highest level of mechanical sophistication'. Yet it doesn't and while it is definitely has a traditional big American sedan (and unique to this group) 'feel', it is certainly not to the levels of the cars that it borrows so heavily from, cars that I might add have been developing that 'sophistication' for 50 years. Why should the Genesis necessarily be any different?
My two cents: Lucerne: Nice car, but, older design and antique engines (Agreed, I might buy if I were 65 or older } Impala: same as above and rental fleet king (Agreed, but that V8 might be fun in the SS) Charger/300: great V8 thats where it ends (Have one, like the MDS HEMI, the handling is great with the independently suspended RWD, comfortable inside and the LXFORUMS.com is a great group of folk) Taurus: OK, but, everyone knows its a 500 with a new engine (based on an old Volvo) {Nice big trunk and AWD available, Brother In Law bought one for hills in Western PA} Azera: Great car, great price, lagging behind only in FE and resale (I drove one, nice car, nice price. Hyundai name?} Avalon: Top of the class, but pricey and starting to age with no update until 2010. (Toyota's Buick: see Lucerne) Maxima: Altima is so close here makes it hard to spend the extra $ (I would definitely go with the Altima) G8: Hardly will be mainstream GM will barely be able to produce any, making it a niche vehicle at best think GTO from a few years back. (Agreed, Hard to believe that GM has to import a car from Australia to make a RWD or AWD V8 Sedan) :shades:
the "mainstream" large car market really isn't that great. the mainstream large sedan by definition is not supposed to be 'exciting'. They are generally bought as family sedans and/or by an older demographic because as a rule, they are practical. It is cars like the 300C/Charger R/T, the G8, and potentially the Genesis that can break that conservative mold and provide something for the enthusiast at a reasonable price. It wasn't all that long ago that the staid old 'family' sedan was quite unremarkable - think the Buick LeSabre of the mid 90s, the CVs/GMs or even the Avalon of the same years. Not exciting and not 'great' , for sure. Now, at least, we have power and economy that has been unavailable in this class, and even these FWD cars can do things (power and FE wise) that they have not been able to do before.
ANY mainstream large sedan ~$30k may be discussed here. We can list nine, no more. I've swapped some in and out at different times, but that's all I can do.
I did have the G8 in here and a while back you folks told me to take it out so I did.
Dborth, we've discussed this previously, maybe you were absent that day : this discussion appears on all the boards of the listed cars. I don't know why people keep making the mistake of thinking this is an Azera discussion that includes other cars, but you aren't the only one who has done that. Anyway, that's not the case.
Comments
Me two, for an equivalent machine. Based on every offering from Hyundai to date, it seems pay less, get less. But the market will say whether these two machines....3 series or Genesis, or 5 series and Genesis or Tessterosa and Gensis.... are in fact equals or not.
and the market I believe said about $35K too expensive.
Hyundai...yes, a crap-tacular past, but...with a present that looks promising and who knows what the future holds. If today's products are any indication, I would say a bright future.
It is possible that the Genesis could end up like the Diamante and the others, but with Hyundai's committment...I think it'll fare better. That's just a feeling I have, however...I could be wrong.
PLEASE keep your comments focused on what can reasonable be described as a mainstream large sedan.
PLEASE keep your comments focused on what can reasonably be described as a mainstream large sedan.
Because Chevy does.
Which brings me to my point: It's all about the car. Bringing up the Diamante and Millennia is bogus because the cars themselves didn't have a fully competitive set of luxury-car attributes -- they were FWD cars with fake wood. By contrast, the Phaeton WAS a real luxury car. The fact it was poorly marketed and sloppily built doesn't negate that. It simply explains why it was an UNSUCCESSFUL luxury car.
In fact, you could do worse than to use those two specs as your benchmark: Is it FWD, and does it lack real wood? If so, you merely have a mainstream large sedan (how about that, Pat?
LUXURY:
Audis (except A3)
BMW's (except maybe 1 Series)
Mercedes
Lexus (except ES)
Infiniti
Acura RL
Phaeton
Cadillac (except DTS)
NOT LUXURY:
Audi A3
Acura TL
Millennia
Diamante
Avalon
Azera
HALF IN, HALF OUT:
Lexus ES (probably in because of the marque)
Cadillac DTS (probably in because of size and price)
Lincoln Town Car (RWD but no wood -- probably out on overall merit)
FWD Lincolns (wood but no RWD -- lack other attributes, so probably out)
Well, wake me up (from the tomb...) when the Genesis had enjoyed 60 years of success like that Chevy sports car you were talking about...
By the way, although RWD is the "right" wheel drive but that factor alone doesn't make or break a luxury car. I would argue very hard if a FWD Volvo S80 is not a luxury car but the Town Car is.
The one vehicle I think we have to give a pass to for now is the Genesis because the assumed pricepoint seems to put it in the mainstream range, regardless of who does or does not want to apply the "luxury" tag to it.
The cars that clearly belong in the luxury or near-luxury class do not belong here.
Is it just me or that idea is a little (just a little) bit unrealistic?
The gamebreaker is the GT-R. The Genesis offers a couple of more doo-dads than the average car at that price point.
All these post about a car that's not even out yet ???????
Seems to me to be a waste of time covering something that's not even available and arguing about it.................................
Anyway, back to the Genesis:
The Genesis offers a couple of more doo-dads than the average car at that price point.
Sure. Of course. The Genesis is just like the large sedans with a few additional features.
Right...no wonder people thought the earth was flat years ago, or more recently, Toyota/Honda was still junk.
Hyundai is supposed to be "the one" like Neo is in the Matrix?
Is it just me or that idea is a little (just a little) bit unrealistic?
You got Neo from all of that?
"Where does this leave the Genesis?" Clearly in the luxury class. How else can you describe a sedan with a Lexicon stereo, rear-seat A/C vents in the C PILLARS, hand-stitched leather on the dash, BMW-spec suspension all around, and fine materials specified everywhere?
I don't know if the Genesis is a game-breaker, but it's certainly in the game. You don't become the #2 most-viewed YouTube video OF ANY KIND, as the Genesis did on one recent day, unless you're arousing some serious attention.
"Silly wood"? It's the same silly material that connotes luxury in every car marque from Jag to Merc to Caddy to Rolls. The only silly wood is the kind that doesn't grow on trees. And the only silly posts are the ones that trust all those honest TV ads instead of their own lyin' eyes.
a 'luxury' car in the same way that many many other brands can and do not. It's not about real of fake wood ( a curious qualification only because it has nothing to do with what is truly IN a car) or the drive wheel layout and certainly not about any other doodads - it is about brand perception (and price) - which unfortunately leaves Hyundai no higher up the 'luxury' scale than Chevy or Ford. And BTW a 'BMW spec' suspension does not a BMW make - you 'H' guys seem to think that by copying a spec. sheet, that the Koreans will magically acquire what it took the Germans decades to develop. I would suspect no way - perhaps wishful thinking - but then again, we haven't seen even the first car yet - only some rather ambitious advertising claims which do mean nothing.
As a suggestion, you might want to say "ridiculous to you". Can you name one Lexus vehicle that isn't luxury or entry level luxury? BMW? Infiniti? Acura? Cadillac? And why? Not a car under these marquees is not at least some version of an entry level or more, in terms of refinement, and engineering and equally as important the brand, which has built it's reputation on it's cars.
You of course are free to disagree that any of the above aren't luxury, but you would be in the minority. BTW, the H design boxer engine does not make it the equal of a Porsche designed engine.
While none of the above vehicles used are germane to this conversation the content of the Genesis is greater than these mainstream vehicles. But in my opinion a vehicle is more than the sum of it's doo-dads.
1) "You 'H' guys seem to think...." I do not now, nor have I ever owned, bought, paid for, designed, built, bought or sold a Hyundai. I am not an "H" guy -- in fact, I own a Nissan and a Honda. Not everyone is motivated by an agenda.
2) "We haven't seen even the first car yet." I have personally seen, inspected and sat in a Hyundai Genesis at the Chicago Auto Show. While this is not as valid as driving a production model, it does suggest you might want to choose your words a bit more carefully.
Beyond that, I'm amused at the verbal contortions involved in reducing powertrain and chassis engineering, content levels and materials quality to the level of "doodads" (a point I already clarified in detail in post #5592). Not that doodads don't matter: Decades ago, all the talk from German-car fanboys was how the Japanese brought nothing to the game except cupholders. Now, whaddaya know, the Germans have cupholders, so I guess they're important after all.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1270036.html
Seeing something different? Mazda, Mitsu, what?
I am in the minority with some others here and the industry people because the average consumer doesn't even have the slightest clue about the basics of a car. Just the other day, I stopped to help out a S-class owner. He didn't even know how to pop open the hood. So when someone tells me, let the market speaks, I am terrified with a chill tingling deep down
I expect you to see it but still to you, the Genesis is apparently even under entry level luxury :sick:
FWIW, I would actually put a few of the large sedans (top trims) here as possible entry level luxury candidates.
I don't understand your comment. really :confuse. I agree the Honda Accord is just as entry level as an Oldsmobile Aurora. But then neither the Accord, Aurora or Genesis has a big brother luxury sedan to look up to. So I would call them upscale sedans.
Not only that, Accord is now somehow an upscale sedan and in the same league as the Genesis. What kind of classification is this?
This is the way I view things.
The Mitsubishi Diamante and Mazda Millenia was considered as entry-level luxury, the Volkswagen Phaeton was considered luxury, the Genesis somehow gets sacked by you as a large sedan only.
I never considered the Mitsu and Mazda as entry level luxury, they had no luxury siblings. The Phaenton looked the part, but there was something wrong. The Genesis is definitely upscale as are a number of other vehicles. Leather does not make a luxury vehicle. You classify things different from me. If one calls the Mitsu entry level, I would think the Accord can hang in there as well.
You're the first person to compare the Accord to the Genesis, however.
The only thing wrong with the Phaeton is the price, otherwise it's a fantastic LUXURY sedan.
In the rarest case you would actually go experience the Genesis when it arrives, you will find out it's more than just doodads, or whatever you call it.
A luxury vehicle must be something MORE than a bunch of options/mechanical specs and is, perhaps even unfairly, something inherent in a name. Tell somebody you have just spend $40 grand on a Hyundai, their first thought (after 'cheap cars') will be to send you to a funny farm, tell them you spend the same money on a Lexus their first thought will be 'good and expensive car'. The Genesis will become a 'luxury' car when it is perceived as such and those folks that buy those kind of vehicles are first seen at the Hyundai dealers, not before. Don't get me wrong it might happen this way eventually, but for now there can be no such thing as a 'luxury' Hyundai - that too being a contradiction in terms.
Look, guys - we're all over the place. Please compare mainstream sedans to mainstream sedans within the general framework we've been working. For starters we can get back to the list of the cars at the top of the page.
Continued conversation about BMWs, Accords, near-luxury, luxury and other off-topic vehicles will get your post removed from here on.
For our purposes, "mainstream" is defined as ~$30k, give or take a bit. Large is large and we're not including the Accord here because it isn't normally compared to the cars we're talking about, it's compared in the midsize class. A few new inches has not changed that reality.
You should take advantage of the many discussions in the Auto News board for continuing conversations about brands in general. This is not the place.
On topic, please!!
Didn't compare the cars, compared the attributes of what the cars represent.
An interesting and useless fact:
We joined these forums on the same day: April 13, 2001. :shades:
Ed
1) "You 'H' guys seem to think...." I do not now, nor have I ever owned, bought, paid for, designed, built, bought or sold a Hyundai. I am not an "H" guy -- in fact, I own a Nissan and a Honda. Not everyone is motivated by an agenda.
2) "We haven't seen even the first car yet." I have personally seen, inspected and sat in a Hyundai Genesis at the Chicago Auto Show. While this is not as valid as driving a production model, it does suggest you might want to choose your words a bit more carefully.
Beyond that, I'm amused at the verbal contortions involved in reducing powertrain and chassis engineering, content levels and materials quality to the level of "doodads" (a point I already clarified in detail in post #5592). Not that doodads don't matter: Decades ago, all the talk from German-car fanboys was how the Japanese brought nothing to the game except cupholders. Now, whaddaya know, the Germans have cupholders, so I guess they're important after all.
You took the words right out of my mouth. You are right on.
Since this is the Azera thread, by your definition why are Genesis posts not deleted?
Otherwise, why not include 300 with Charger? Or Sable with Taurus?
Mainstream is simply that, and some manufactures have more than one choice available. They should however include only what you can consider, test drive and buy now...not a model months away from even being in the US.
By defn of Pat's: ~30K - Genesis yes; large - Genesis yes
I have no problem w/ the 300, Sable added but they are related to the Charger and Taurus; Azera and Genesis are not related, however.
The Genesis is coming in a few short months, so what are you trying to say months away from even being here?
Uncontroversial opinion: The Genesis will deliver the highest level of mechanical sophistication and the most comprehensive standard equipment ever offered in a large sedan at that price.
Educated personal opinion: Never mind whether the Genesis is a "true luxury sedan." The fact that it can even inspire an argument around that question is, itself, powerful testimony that it promises to be a very considerable achievement in mainstream automaking -- all the moreso given where that achievement is coming from.
Can we all agree on that?
(Edited to say "ever offered in a LARGE sedan at that price." With respect to the moderators, we don't need another argument about how it stacks up against the 3 Series.)
In the same vein the stating the Accord is an entry level sedan inspires a bit of opinion. I think the Genesis is a luxury sedan the same way the Accord is an entry level sedan. Of course, this is only my Vote With My Dollars opinon. We'll have to see how it stacks up in a year to the rest of world.
and...why isn't the Pontiac G8 here - a car that we'll be seeing on the road before Genesis, and is a direct competitor to the Charger in size, layout, price, power, etc.
Thanks, I forgot that one.
Whats the difference? Months are months.
Lucerne: Nice car, but, older design and antique engines
Impala: same as above and rental fleet king
Charger/300: great V8 thats where it ends
Taurus: OK, but, everyone knows its a 500 with a new engine (based on an old Volvo)
Azera: Great car, great price, lagging behind only in FE and resale
Avalon: Top of the class, but pricey and starting to age with no update until 2010.
Maxima: Altima is so close here makes it hard to spend the extra $
G8: Hardly will be mainstream GM will barely be able to produce any, making it a niche vehicle at best think GTO from a few years back.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
this may be true but it also may not - HOW DO YOU KNOW- by reading a spec. sheet or by sitting in one at an auto show? Nobody's even road tested one yet. The Chrysler 300/Charger has a very sophisticated and well engineered suspension system borrowed from Mercedes Benz, the car should 'deliver' the highest level of mechanical sophistication'. Yet it doesn't and while it is definitely has a traditional big American sedan (and unique to this group) 'feel', it is certainly not to the levels of the cars that it borrows so heavily from, cars that I might add have been developing that 'sophistication' for 50 years. Why should the Genesis necessarily be any different?
Lucerne: Nice car, but, older design and antique engines (Agreed, I might buy if I were 65 or older
Impala: same as above and rental fleet king (Agreed, but that V8 might be fun in the SS)
Charger/300: great V8 thats where it ends (Have one, like the MDS HEMI, the handling is great with the independently suspended RWD, comfortable inside and the LXFORUMS.com is a great group of folk)
Taurus: OK, but, everyone knows its a 500 with a new engine (based on an old Volvo) {Nice big trunk and AWD available, Brother In Law bought one for hills in Western PA}
Azera: Great car, great price, lagging behind only in FE and resale (I drove one, nice car, nice price. Hyundai name?}
Avalon: Top of the class, but pricey and starting to age with no update until 2010. (Toyota's Buick: see Lucerne)
Maxima: Altima is so close here makes it hard to spend the extra $ (I would definitely go with the Altima)
G8: Hardly will be mainstream GM will barely be able to produce any, making it a niche vehicle at best think GTO from a few years back. (Agreed, Hard to believe that GM has to import a car from Australia to make a RWD or AWD V8 Sedan) :shades:
the mainstream large sedan by definition is not supposed to be 'exciting'. They are generally bought as family sedans and/or by an older demographic because as a rule, they are practical. It is cars like the 300C/Charger R/T, the G8, and potentially the Genesis that can break that conservative mold and provide something for the enthusiast at a reasonable price. It wasn't all that long ago that the staid old 'family' sedan was quite unremarkable - think the Buick LeSabre of the mid 90s, the CVs/GMs or even the Avalon of the same years. Not exciting and not 'great' , for sure. Now, at least, we have power and economy that has been unavailable in this class, and even these FWD cars can do things (power and FE wise) that they have not been able to do before.
I did have the G8 in here and a while back you folks told me to take it out so I did.
Dborth, we've discussed this previously, maybe you were absent that day
Carry on.
Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison
5623 messages, Last post on Mar 05, 2008 at 8:50 AM
You are in the Hyundai Azera Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens
this is what it says on the top of my screen. I guess it must depend on the route you took to get to 'Mainstream Sedans'