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Subaru Forester (up to 2005)
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Comments
:-)
Ross
Patti
Patti
That said, the most recent trend in this particular segment seems to be in Subaru's favor, with CR now ranking the Forester first in reliability over the RAV4 and the CRV. This is partly due to the CRV being new and therefore not ranked this year, but any way you cut it, the Forester is statistically very, very good on both points.
That said, the CRV AWD system is part-time, whereas the Forester's of course is full-time. I've seen reports that the CRV's system *can* overheat under prolonged use, such as a prolonged drive under bad conditions through the mountains. If this happens, it drops out, leaving you in 2WD. I can't substantiate those reports though, so treat it as a rumor for now.
The Subaru AWD system is world rally tested and proven under extreme conditions (they dominate the world rally circuit), and is designed from the get go for full-time engagement for the life of the car. I don't think you have any worries there.
I don't know how the Toyota system compares mechanically, but someone here knows, I'm sure.
As to why other manufacturer's don't use Boxer's, I suspect the primary reason is cost. Boxer's are more expensive to make, because you have 2 overhead cam valve trains to manage rather than one. On a small displacement engine going into an entry-level vehicle, that creates tradeoffs from a pricing perspective. They also don't fit that well into an engine bay because of their shape, so there are design tradeoffs that have to be considered when scaling them up to drive larger vehicles.
Am I being fair here, guys ?
Bob
Why aren't boxers more popular? They are expensive to manufacture. My engine is a big 4 cylinder, with a whopping 4 camshafts! The Phase II engines (1999 and later) went to SOHC but still use 2 camshafts because of the layout.
But don't take my word for it, ask BMW. Their motorcycles are boxers, and I will quote from their very own brochure, it's "the most technically advanced" and "carries its weight low in the chassis for an improved center of gravity and better balance."
I couldn't say it better myself. Porsche won't argue with that, either.
-juice
We then went on to Subaru dealer to test drive Forester. What a difference! The top of the line model has the feel of a luxury car. It drives better, much more quite than the CR-V. It is a little more expensive than CR-V, but you get what you are paying for. We decided to get a Forester as soon as the 2003 model come out. I read on the net that it is much improved.
When I returned home, I had the brakes checked out just to be sure there was no problem with the ABS system. Of course the dealer said that they could not test under the same conditions I was driving in, but it felt to me that the ABS system might be functioning out of parameters (i.e. it's not supposed to activate under 6 mph). The dealer found nothing wrong with the ABS, but I had to pay $45 for the inspection, being out of warranty.
Just for curiosity, I later took the Forester out for a spin on a nearby dirt lot to try out the ABS under different driving conditions. I accelerated to ~15 mph and then slammed on the brakes. The ABS behaved as follows: I immediately felt the brake pedal pushing back, and heard the same electronic buzz that I heard in the snow. The buzz sound and pushing back lasted until about 1 sec. after I had come to a complete stop. My question: Is it normal for the ABS to stay activated until after the car has stopped? As for the 6 mph limit, does that mean that the ABS won't activate only when braking begins at or below 6 mph? And for anyone who normally drives in snow, is it normal for the ABS to kick in just before stopping (when on fresh snow)?
The 2003 Forester is supposed to get an even improved interior so I believe it's worth waiting for.
Ken
-mike
-mike
How 'bout a Focus as an entry-level economy vehicle, or a Neon, etc. They sell for 2/3's what the CR-V is going for, are smaller, lighter, no AWD, etc.
The CR-V might be an entry-level SUV, but that get's back into the whole "what's an SUV" thing again...
Anything that goes for nearly 20k can't be considered entry-level in my book, even if the "average" is a bit higher than that (I bet the median price isn't much different).
Just my .02
I've heard the Dueler H/Ls were better than the H/Ts, but I haven't sampled them.
ABS can be bad in the snow, because in a way you want skidding - it piles up snow in front of the tires and shortens stopping distances. I'm not sure, but is ABS disabled when you pull up the parking brake just one click? That might work if you're in those conditions again.
I'd suggest testing the car in a parking lot, perhaps with the parking brake at one click.
On mine, yes, the ABS works at all speeds.
-juice
From reading some of the earlier posts, I've decided to wait for the 2003 Forester to come out before I make up my mind to buy. May even wait for the turbo to come out the following year.
At any rate, I'll be looking forward to reading what you current Forester owners have to say here once you have a chance to try out the 2003.
I do believe Consumer Reports will be reporting on small SUV's in the May issue. I wish they had waited to include the 2003 Forester in their comparison.
One last question. Why did Subaru choose to go from a double overhead cam engine to a single as Juice noted in post #4761?
-wags
This was accomplished by changing the valve angles to increase the charge tumbling, among other things. Going to an SOHC instead of the old DOHC design enabled them to reduce friction and increase the life of the timing belt. Recommended change interval went from 60k to 105k miles.
At the same time, they met passenger car NLEV emissions, which as I understand it, means that they meet the 2004 proposed standard now (i.e. as of 1999). Not too shabby...
I also tested out the 6 mph limit, which can be tricky since the speedometer doesn't start registering until exceeding 5 mph. I tested this by coasting and waiting until the needle dropped to the 5 mph mark and then slamming on the brakes. The ABS did not activate, so at least on dirt, it seems to be functioning within parameters. I'd be interested in what anyone driving on snow finds out.
The other reason (and probably the bigger one IMO) for going from DOHC to SOHC was cost. The SOHC engine has fewer moving parts and is most likely less expensive for Subaru to build.
The timing belt change frequency did not change between Phase I and II, however. Both are 105K miles.
Ken
Its kinda fun when no one is around, but as indicated in my post in General Maintenance, I slammed into a rock ledge last week partly because of this problem. I've seen this ABS "noise" mentioned before...i guess Subaru's system is just quirky.
-mike
I drive on snow and mud quite often. Hate to suggest it, but perhaps you're backing off the brake pedal when the sound starts? Mine works flawlessly, but remember you still have to steer the car while braking!
-mike
Jon: oh well, it was worth a shot.
The best thing about ABS is that you keep control of your steering. My Miata lacks ABS and is RWD, so that thing is a real handful in the snow. A simple drop of the throttle send you spinning in a turn. Stab the brakes and hello, 360. It's fun when you're playing, but I never, ever drive my Miata in the snow to get anywhere.
tincup: I wasn't falling for the hype, I just found it amusing to hear BMW talk about how great boxers are in print. I like their silky smooth in-line sixes, too.
-juice
BTW, I recall reading a few years ago that Subaru's ABS was unique in the industry; developed from FHI's aircraft landing-gear technology. Did I dream this or have others heard the same?
YetAnotherDave
That's a funny image to have in my head. I guess you'd need long arms, like a primate, too.
-juice
I've also heard about Subaru's extensive development for their ABS. I thought I read somewhere (i-club?) that Subaru designed their ABS to release more completely compared to other systems to retain control on ice. I've also read how Subaru develops their ABS by testing it extensively on gravel roads in Australia too.
Ken
It just cracks me up when someone claims he can modulate his brakes better than ABS can (it was mentioned in another thread, BTW). It's simply not possible. At best you would be at the treshold of the tire with the LEAST grip. At best!
Foresters are raced on ice in France, I had a really cool photo of one setup for this type of racing.
-juice
Maybe the claims of being able to modulate brakes better than ABS were true in the early days. I'm going to guess that 4-channel ABS wasn't always the case.
Ken
Okay, it sounds like we have a challenge... which will stop a vehicle in the shortest distance? Threshold braking or ABS.
All you need is a measured and marked section of pavement. Make a series of 3(?) runs where you slam on the brakes at the beginning of the measured section of road and keep them floored and let the ABS do its thing. Then make a second set of 3 runs with the ABS disabled. This time use threshold braking (defined as getting on the brakes hard and then gradually backing off in order to stay just ahead of the point where the tires would lose traction). Average the stopping distances for each set of runs and the shorter avg wins. Anybody willing to perform this experiment?
-Frank P.
-juice
See previous entry on thread.
With ABS you retain steering control and can steer around an obstacle whereas without ABS there is no steering control and you smack into the object.
I was an anti-abs type person til about a month ago. I was cruising down a 4-lane blvd. you know with traffic lights and cross traffic. A buse made a left turn across my side of the road to go into a depot. I figured he would stop when he saw me, but just came across the road. I was doing about 50-55mph. Slammed on my brakes in the Trooper but there was no was I was stopping in time. Due to ABS I was able to take a 90 degree turn, in control and squeeze between a pole and the bus onto the curb into the bus lot w/o hitting anything. Had I not had ABS I would have smacked square into the bus.
-mike
I'd rather have that compromise, even though I've comfortably driven lesser vehicles in snowy, icy places for some years. ABS, *along with good tires*, take some of the variables out of real-life braking situations for ordinary drivers. Less is left to skill or luck, such as at night on a road with patches of ice and dry pavement. My instinct has been to feather the brakes, not stomp & stay. After 3 years I'm used to my Forester's ABS, but have to remember to drive so I don't need it in normal circumstances. Tires are key. When I took our '92 Legacy with its all-season tires out on a slippery winter day, I was into the ABS right away and had to back off. My habits were used to the winter tires on the Forester. How easy it is to rely on advanced techonology.
- John
The one major benefit of 4-channel ABS in my opinion is that it can provide even braking no matter how traction varies from wheel to wheel. Never mind that you can still steer if needed -- the big benefit is that you can also keep going straight!! So many non-ABS cars will lock up one wheel early, and it can cause major stability problems. 4-channel ABS is nice because it will help keep the car on course.
Craig
Personally I don't think that the CEL is indicative of a poorly designed or manufactured vehicle. Many of today's makes and models have recurrent CEL problems with the frequency of CEL occurences being directly related to the government's stricter emissions standards. In the vast majority of cases it turns out to be a minor problem with the emissions system.
-Frank P.
Bob
-mike
:-)
Ross
-mike