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Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?
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I do follow the posts, at least given the small amount of time I have to peruse Edmunds.com. No disrespect intended, it just seems like in all the myriad of threads you are involved here, the discussion always seems to evolve to the UAW. Is it possible to discuss the pros and cons of the thread's title without a union vs. non-union debate?
I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just saying I saw different back a few years ago is all. Perhaps things have changed ?
I honestly don't care....you can win this arguement
Rocky
Would love to do that w9cw. It seems that the majority of people know where I stand on the union issue and to get my goat they bring it up. I guess I should be more mature and ignore it.
Rocky
Fintails, Mercedes Benz's aren't winter beaters....
Rocky
Domestic truck fans have nothing to diss about this new rig. It's handsome, well equipped, powerful and certainly as capable as the big three. Best of all, it is built in the good ol US of A which should change the minds of the anti-import crowd as they have absolutely nothing to knock this new rig for anymore. They'll sell every single one.
I predict many conquest sales from this. Good job Toyota on building a real competitor. :shades:
Rocky
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But even with the "coordinated forum blitz" of pro-GM posts that we have been seeing over the past month or so, I believe the Real Market will fully accept the new Tundra as a strong offering and worthy of a look.
Pro-domestic fans are going to be grasping for straws to come up with negative things to say about this new rig.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/08/2009-lexus-lf-a-concept/
Stylistic knockout IMO. :shades:
whats even more laughable is your having this converstion with a guy who goes by anythngbutgm :P
What is the oil change schedule on a Toyota? 7500 miles? Do they have an oil life monitor like GM vehicles?
LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.
Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.
Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.
Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota.
Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.
"This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."
Toyotas at risk
About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine. Here are the vehicles included in the settlement.
VEHICLE MODEL YEARS
Camry 4 cyl. 1997-2001
Camry 6 cyl. 1997-2002
Camry Solara 4 cyl. 1999-2001
Camry Solara 6 cyl. 1999-2002
Sienna 6 cyl. 1998-2002
Avalon 6 cyl. 1997-2002
Celica 4 cyl. 1997-1999
Highlander 6 cyl. 2001-2002
Lexus ES 300 1997-2002
Lexus RX 300 1999-2002
The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.
When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.
Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.
Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.
The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.
"The settlement doesn't mean that Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel," according to the notice.
After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. The company declined to give an updated number of complaints.
The terms
Under terms of the settlement:
Owners of damaged vehicles have eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.
If Toyota denies the claim, owners can appeal to a judge-appointed third-party administrator: J. Robert Ates, a New Orleans lawyer.
Customers who have already made repairs may be able to recover the costs.
Only those who elect not to participate in the settlement can sue Toyota individually. The deadline for that choice was Dec. 31, 2006.
The settlement is transferable to future vehicle owners.
The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge. It is not necessary for the owner to have made repairs during the claim period.
Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.
"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."
Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.
I had one of the affected cars -- a '97 Camry 4-cylinder. In 2002, after Toyota had received numerous complaints, including a spirited debate here on Edmunds in which a Toyota rep participated, Toyota agreed to an 8-year, unlimited mileage warranty on all vehicles potentially affected by the problem. The article you quote says as much: After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines.
I received a letter explaining this warranty extension. The letter was similar to a recall letter, so it was obvious that it wasn't junk mail. If there was a problem, the owner had to show evidence of reasonable maintenance, meaning at least one oil change per year.
My car did NOT have sludge. I changed the oil myself at 5000K mile intervals or less (3+ times a year) using conventional oil. I had the car for 7 years and 111K miles and sold it only to upgrade to a side-airbag equipped 2004 Camry. It is still not clear to this day if the sludging issue was due to faulty engineering or inadequate maintenance.
I have seen some articles that discussed changes that were subsequently made to the V6 engine, but I have yet to read about ANY changes that were made to the 4-cylinder.
At the time (1997), Toyota had 6-month/7500 mile intervals for normal service oil changes and 4-month/5000 mile intervals for severe service.
In 2004, Toyota shortened the service interval to 6 months/5000 miles for all users AND began installing a dashboard amber warning light "maintenance required" that would start flashing at 4500 miles since the last reset and would stay on steadily at 5000 miles.
To my knowledge, no Toyota product uses engine oil life monitors, but as you know, these are indirect indicators of oil quality and are not infallible. And as I recall from reading GM owner's manuals, you still must change the oil once a year even if the monitor indicates the oil is still "good."
And just in case I get called on for making things up , here is the link to the relevant Edmunds thread from five years ago. Yep, five years ago -- this really is old news.
The '97 got sold to be replaced by an '04 Accord, with 120K miles when sold and never a single repair. The '99 is still in my other friend's possession, getting to about 120K itself now, and no problems with the engine. An aftermarket alarm and an attempted theft have caused no end of problems, but that's another story...
GM made a smart move going to the 100K warranty. Regardless of how "meaningful" it is (currently being debated in a different thread, because it is 100K miles but only 5 years), it is a great demonstration by the manufacturer of faith in the long-term durability of its product. And if Toyota had such a standard warranty, they probably wouldn't have taken so much flak over the sludge thing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes yes, you are right, apparently Toyota managed to buy off every single media in the states.
If you have a problem with me or my opinions, take it up with the moderators. Don't be a prick about it.
Even that so-called "import-loving, communist" Consumer Reports had an article in the front part of the magazine about it.
The sludge problem, however, according to affected owners, often manifested itself very early in the car's lifetime, many times well within even the bumper-to-bumper 3/36 warranty period.
Toyota initially refused to accept any responsibility for the problem, claiming owners were not changing their oil soon enough (or at all).
This sludge issue was especially perplexing to owners such as me that had already accumulated well over 50-60K miles with no problems (but of course, I was changing the oil well within the recommended intervals). We were arguing back and forth on Edmunds whether the problem was real or exaggerated (or caused by owner negligence or repair shop incompetence).
Everyone got a letter in the mail extending the warranty, how is that "hidden" or "secret"?
This was the winning lawyers' view on the issue, according to the news article. I'll refrain from the lawyer jokes. There's no word on what the judge said.
It was Motor Trend not Edmunds.
What the hell are you talking about? First of all i wasnt talking to you and second i was merely stating that i found it ironic that someone else was replying to your post and was talking about some peoples mindset"Unfortunately many who may claim to be "open mined", have a pervasive and ingrained mind-set that simply will never be changed"
meanwhile they are talking to a guy whos name is anythingbutgm. Am i the only one here who finds that slightly amusing? It would be kinda like Bush talking to saddam about the human rights problem in china
If you consider that being a prick or arrogance than I am truly sorry that you lead such a miserable existance that you have to fly off the handle at a little joke.
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Rocky
The questions you guys are raising about oil type, etc. were all hashed out in the now-archived forums in Edmunds. Search for "Toyota sludge."
There didn't seem to be any particular pattern to who was affected by sludge, but it seemed to be mostly limited to people who drove only short distances but didn't necessarily change their oil in time (every 6 months). In some cases, the mileage limit on oil changes was also stretched. There were also accusations (not proven) that Pennzoil and Quaker State conventional oils are "bad."
My '97 Camry was fine for the 7 years and 111K miles that I had it.
The hidden recall has nothing to do with the oil sludge problem typical of earlier toyota's. I've posted several links to related story's about toyot's hidden recall campaign also known as service campaigns. Toyota, esentially instead of doing a national recall had owners come in for service and they would fix the problems during the routine service to avoid national exposure that would tarnish their flawless image. This went on for over 8 years until a investigation happened which sent 3 top toyota officals to jail for the scam prosecuted by the japanese government.
Rocky
rocky, care to show us the articles stating that the "investigation" has been completed, and the three quality-control managers had been found guilty and imprisoned?
btw, if these so called "hidden recalls" existed, and are not used across the industry by some of your favorites such as GM or Ford, why haven't they called Toyota on it? hmmmm... interesting, no rocky?
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2006/07/12/70288.htm
I have other more recent articles posted on different forums dated during this past summer when the investigation was going on. Last I knew three top officails were jailed. What has happened since then I haven't kept up with the story since I'm not a Toyota loyalist and it doesn't concern me or my money.
Google "Toyota recall scandal" and like words and numerous forums, articles, blogs, will appear or dig into the july postings of the Big 3/GM forums? postings is where
"I think" you might find some of my previous links.
Rocky
Rocky
For the former, all owners are notified, as would be the case in a safety- or emissions-related recall.
For the latter, only when customers bring in their vehicles with specific complaints to dealerships are the problems considered. A lot of TSBs simply deal with improved service procedures rather than defects per se. And many also deal with initial delivery concerns, such as how to remove rail dust corrosion spots from the paint.
If you actually sent all of the TSBs to the public they would freak out at the sheer volume of them.
Others are simply revisions of past TSBs, in which maybe one or two paragraphs are modified somewhat. For example, the whole topic of window glass deals basically with the proper procedure for "initializing" the sunroof.
And a great many deal with initial delivery issues, like the aforementioned rail dust, plus predelivery inspection.