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I've got to laugh.
Who with half a brain would buy a Viper if they were concerned with the MPG of the car? The Viper is already hit with the gas-guzzler tax.
The Viper is about raw power, not MPG, interior room or cargo room. It's not meant to be a "practical car". It's in a specialty niche for those who can afford it in additon to their "normal" car.
40 MPH ~ 1600 RPM
50 MPH ~ 2000 RPM
60 MPH ~ 2400 RPM
70 MPH ~ 2800 RPM
80 MPH ~ 3200 RPM
90 MPH ~ 3600 RPM
100 MPH ~ 4000 RPM
Calculated number for 2008 Accord
I-4/AT: 60=1950,
70=2300
80=2600
V6/AT: 60=2050
70=2400
80=2750
I-4/MT: 60=2200
70=2600
80=2950
V6/MT: 60=2100
70=2450
80=2800
Saturn Aura XR 6 sp Automatic
60=1500
70=1750
80=2000
So at 70 MPH my Aura XR is spinning 1050 RPM less than the '07 Accord I4MT
650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT
Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
(15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
Just food for thought
I haven't had a MT since 1983 but, as I recall, in a MT, X revs equaled Y MPH in each gear. In hilly CT, an AT can have different revs,in the same gear, at Y MPH depending upon whether the road is down hill, up hill or relatively flat.
This would be due to the direct connection vs the fluid connection, I think. If I'm wrong please correct and explain.
It essentially makes a mechanical connection through the torque converter once a pre-programmed speed has been reached. Used to be, in the old days this didn't exist, then in the late 70's, I think, they figured a way to engage a latch of some sort which locked the two halves of the torque converter together once top gear was engaged and something like manifold vacuum was high.
Today it's the transmissions computer that determines when to lock up occurs and it might even lock up in other than top gear.
650 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6AT
700 RPM less than the 08 Accord V6MT
Interesting, Thats 39000 Rev's per hour the XR saves compared to the Accord V6AT.
That could be over 500,000 Rev's per 1000 miles. or 7.6 million rev's per year
(15k miles per year), That could mean a couple years more life for the Saturn engine. That would be true if the engines were made of the same materials and maintenance was the same, and all the driving was done at 70 MPH, etc. etc. etc.
Just food for thought
That is one big IF. Not applicable, in the "real world".
Budget/ Value - Sonata (18k for a v-6?, i4 ?), Mazda6 (17k for a v-6 in pdx), Optima
Reliability - Sonata, Accord, Legacy, Fusion (listed in no particular order...) - of course I have to add that the differences in reliability as reported by JD Powers and Consumer Reports over a 5 year period between the most reliable and below average vehicles in this class are separated by only a few percent over that five year period... in other words, I would suggest that most vehicles in this class are very reliable.
Sportiness/ fun to drive - Altima, Legacy GT, Mazda6, Aura, Accord coupe (reviews suggest the 2 door as having a much more sporty suspension than the 4 dr), Camry SE (motortrend said this model was more sporty than the Accord...for what that's worth)
Cargo Utility - Outback, Passat wagon, Mazda6 hatchback/ wagon
Resale value - Accord, Camry
Interior Quality - too subjective, but my faves are the Legacy, new Sonata, Accord, Aura
Gas mileage - ? not really a stat that I've looked at too much, but I'm sure others here will know
Safety - Legacy
Ride Comfort - not too sure where to start with this since some would value a tomb like ride, others might like something with more connection. Also, one person may like a seat that another would find awful. But I think the people who would list this as one of their primary considerations would most likely prefer something that is smooth and quiet and not very engaging. Camry, Accord, Sonata.
I'm sure my list is far from comprehensive, but I welcome comments and additions/ clarifications to this list. Of course many of these qualities are somewhat subjective, but if there are new readers of this forum, our comments may help make their choices easier if not get them to think about how to go about making their choice.
Hmm a full-size "personal coupe" as fun to drive...eh kind of screams Monte Carlo to me. Not that the Prelude was svelte either, but that is a large automobile. I think our base Legacy has a pretty active ride which is understandably too harsh for some, but it is fun for me to drive. My friend had a previous generation Camry SE and it was reasonably firm as well, and was a 4 cyl 5 spd combo with a "sport" suspension.
Honda engines are designed to rev. Look at Civic Si, S2000... even one of the new Accord I4 variants has a redline over 7000 RPM. And then there are Honda sport motorcycles...
Think about the engines in your lawn mower, leaf blower, or a personal watercraft or outboard boat motor (all of which are also made by Honda). Those engines stay at very high RPM during most of their use and are not adversely affected because they are designed to operate in those conditions.
Most Honda motors have always been this way, and it hasn't seemed to adversely affect their durability compared to larger displacement, lower-revving motors in the past. In short, I don't worry too much about revving my Honda!
The Accord is quite a contrast to the 6, that's for sure.
I agree 100% with that statement. Even though I loathed our '96 Civic for its lack of power anywhere south of 4000 RPM, it did rev willingly to the redline. We had problems with it almost everywhere else on the car, but the drive train required minimal maintenance even though we did rev it near the limit all the time just to climb hills and keep up with traffic.
The only think I did differently was that I changed the oil more frequently. It did emit a burning oil smell from the tailpipe after a shorter period of time than other cars I've owned but I had no problem with that. Even that can be eliminated with different oils and additives now, neither of which were used by me. I just used plain old Pennzoil which isn't exactly the greatest oil in the world anymore from what I've read.
I think you are right, I think the wear on a well maintained motor with clean motor oil is minimal from additional RPMs. Technological improvements have allowed for much tighter and better controlled tolerances and much less variation in manufacturing, resulting in substancial decreases in weight and friction. Short of cold starts and engineering failures, there is very little metal to metal contact.
Wouldn't it be nice, for used car shoppers, if in addition to miles cars would count the number of starts?
[edit -- sorry for the rpm"s" :P ]
Food for thought and discussion is why I asked the question in the first place.
I know most cars today have engines and transmissions that lasts for 100's of thousands of miles when maintained properly and driven with care, which I am sure everyone on this forum does
Fact: Every revolution of the engine causes some wear some place. Oil does not cover every part 100% of it's surface when pressure is applied.
Fact: Every revolution of the engine generates heat because of the parts rubbing against one another. If the parts didn't rub against one another we wouldn't need a radiator full of coolant or a water pump or an oil cooler or a transmission oil cooler.
Wear might only a molecule or two per 1000 rev's but it is still wear. A fact of life you can't avoid, just do what you can to minimize it
Point: Do whatever you can to reduce friction in the engine and transmission and the engine/trans will last even longer. As someone posted they will both probably last well over 250,000 Kilometers (how about 250,000 miles?). I use a PTFE based additive to help, it works to keep temps down and it helps with the gas mileage too.
Every revolution of the engine causes some wear some place. Oil does not cover every part 100% of it's surface when pressure is applied.
Honda B18C used in Integra GS-R had a unique honey-comb cylinder lining. It was engineered to rev higher than a typical engine is. You can't apply a generic statement while ignoring facts like these.
Would you say that Aura XR's transmission having to shift 2-3 times more than XE's for same effect will drastically reduce its durability? Or do you think the fact that it has to shift is already incorporated in the design?
What if the engine life, if it is always warm and always running at 2000 is equivalent to 3,000,000 miles. Then if it runs at 3000 rpm instead, the same number of revs would get you 2,000,000 miles. In which case there is a difference but it is meaningless in the real world.
A cylinder is a the hole the piston goes into; it doesn't move, so it couldn't be started or stopped. The piston goes up and down (or left and right if you are a Porsche or Subaru) and is connected to the crank via a connecting rod, which is pinned at the piston and bolted to the crank about a bearing. There is currently no healthy way for a single piston to be stopped in a multi-cylinder motor. It can be de-activated by cutting fuel and or spark (as a rev limiter does, except this would be on a single cylinder), but the piston would still travel the stroke of the cylinder. I would imagine Honda would use its VTEC control to hold the valves open during compression strokes to prevent more drag (or intake strokes to prevent vacuum), but oil pressure would remain constant so there would be no effective difference with respect to wear.
If anything, the piston, pins, and crank bearings would last longer since they will not all be exposed to the force associated with combustion all the time.
I guess that would technically be MsPG, right?
Either that or if MPGs is used, the follow-up question: How many gallons? should be asked .
When an example is provided to illustrate a point, it shouldn’t be taken to the point that you believe it is the same design that the example provided. Or else, you will continue to miss the point. No, the Accord V6 doesn’t rev to 8000 rpm, so why must it?
Or perhaps, I could feed the same medicine and stick to the “only engines can be compared logic”. Well, Accord’s V6 is a simpler design, and it uses two camshafts versus four in Aura. Now, doesn’t that make Aura V6 more vulnerable in that regard, with more moving parts? Or, is this argument flawed as well?
VCM doesn’t work the way you think it does. It works by keeping the pistons running and spark plugs are still fired. Only the valves are kept shut. This allows instantaneous transition into V6 mode (from I-3 or V4 mode) when needed. Why would this cause more wear than engine that has explosions going on in all pistons at all times?
And while you still might be, why skip-shift in Corvette's transmission? (In case you aren't aware, it is a transmission logic to help improve EPA rating by 1-4 shift instead of traditional shifting pattern under low throttle situations which happens to encompass all but one of EPA's test cycles).
Please have a perspective before you speak.
Budget/Value: Need to add the Fusion (starts around $15k real-world pricing) and also add the Elantra and Sentra--low-priced options for people who want mid-sized interior room but don't mind an I4 and compact exterior dimensions.
Reliability: I think you have to add the Camry I4 here--there's nothing yet to suggest that it isn't reliable. Also the Milan of course.
Gas mileage--this is almost too close to call, with several cars e.g. Accord, Altima, Camry, Optima, Sonata being within about 1 mpg of each other. I suppose we could say the ultimate mpg champ here is the Prius (it IS mid-sized), and the Camry and Altima hybrids.
Safety: Have to include the Accord here--it has top scores in all the IIHS tests and is one of their "top picks", and it has standard ESC with traction control across the lineup. I think the Sonata should get honorable mention because it's the only car in the group other than the Accord to offer ESC + traction across the board.
Ride comfort: really is personal, but I think the Fulan's ride is quite nice also. Haven't driven the Aura, Malibu, or Altima yet.
Thanks for clarifying that. Should have done the research instead of making an assumption. I think the main pt. was that an engine that rev's higher will cause more engine wear then another that rev's lower? I think it would to some degree.
Aren't F1 engines lifespans drastically shorter since they rev really high?
Like anything that is properly designed, engines are designed to exceed a tolerance level. And it is determined by the application. A higher revving engine will use a different spec than one that is lower revving design. In Honda's world, F22C (S2000) would have been engineered to different specs and criterias than N22A (Accord Diesel). One redlines at 4500 rpm, the other will scream to 8000 rpm. The priorities are different, hence the design decisions. A 2.2-liter engine isn't going to have same design regardless of how high or low it revs.
This is fundamental to engineering anything well.
If the friction from moving parts, was the only heat generated, an engine would not need a radiator. An oil pump and oil would suffice. It's those explosions inside the cylinders, that make it necessary to use a radiator full of coolant.
But it doesn't matter because neither the Viper nor the Corvette are relevant to this discussion, so let's drop this and get back to the subject.
Enough, please. If you have more to say, please email me, this does not belong here.
Only car I can think of the qualifies for M(singular)PG's(plural) is a 3000+ HP top fuel dragster or alcohol dragster.
They get about 20 gal/mile of fuel, not gasoline
So, it ain't all about rpm, but design and engineering, and considerations to durability. Besides, the last thing I would worry about in a Honda (Accord) will be its engine.
Honda B18C used in Integra GS-R had a unique honey-comb cylinder lining. It was engineered to rev higher than a typical engine is. You can't apply a generic statement while ignoring facts like these.
I don't understand "honey-comb lining." I am thinking it is something like the Crinkle Chrome applied to some cross county motorcycle racing engines back in the 70's. It was a super smooth, supper hard, chrome-molly alloy plating with a spider web of microscopic fractures which held on to the oil better reducing friction of rings to cylinder walls.
You mention "apply generic statement while ignoring facts like these" but I don't see any facts in your statement.
Are you saying that an engine with a honey-comb cylinder doesn't have any friction anywhere in the engine? I know from your other posts you are way to knowledgeable to state an assumption like that and I won't assume that is what you were saying.
I just am missing the facts you elude to, I guess. Maybe you could describe the facts to me more clearly?
Other post on this thread have made statements along the lines that RPM has no effect on Honda engines. Honda must have figured out how to completely eliminate metal on metal contact in an engine, which would be the greatest discovery of the 20th century, and maybe the 21st . With this technology we can solve the oil crisis because we wont need it for lubrication of anything in the future.
I don't think they own the market on reducing friction in an internal combustion or compression ignition motor. I think the design of the piston itself, the design of the cylinder wall, the way the rings seat and the material they are made of, and the coatings they use on the cylinders, pistons, and rings helps too. Modern con-rod bearings seem to show almost no wear after hundreds of thousands of miles if the oil was maintained.
The Contour held 5.7 qts of oil while the Accord held 3.8 qts. Because the Contour was tracked, it got synthetic, but I didn't have an issue with either one. I wanted to make sure there was something protecting the bearings when the vehicle was oil-starved during hard cornering, so synthetic seemed like the way to go. 180k later it was fine, and that was high load, high RPM driving.
I personally am not worried about revs in a motor, as long as its within its factory limits (if you start reving a 7500 RPM redline motor to 10k you might have an issue). In my opinion, manufacturing tolerances are tight enough between all manufacturers.
Suggestion for new topic for today's discussion, "Which midside car has the best automatic climate control system?"
I'll start with saying the Mazda6 is not the winner.
Never had it. Too entertaining to sit there and battle with Mrs. LilEngineerBoy over the temperature control knob. Okay, not really, but it wasn't until recently that we had 2 cars that had Air Conditioning, let alone climate control.
I agree with your post. You stated the point very well.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,