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2008 Minivans
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Comments
What baffles me a little is the tow rating, 3500 lbs? My 2005 was rated at 3800 lbs with tow package...and has smaller engine?
I'd love to see a Diesel version on the market, I'm hearing that'll happen in 2009 for Chrysler, and rumors of a Honda Ody for 2010?
Actually, I understood you completely.
Legacy costs are precisely the "excuses" I was referring to before. To call yourself the best van there is no room for excuses. That was my whole point!
Edmunds' van was $39k and change. Now we see another stickering for $41k plus. These are not the value-priced vans that the outgoing ones were!
Edmunds compared the new 4.0l/6 speed to the outgoing 2007 Honda JC35 engine, which is being updated for 2008. It's already more efficient and should only increase that advantage.
That arrives for model year 2008, I believe, same as the new Chryslers.
It's a moving target. To be best you need continuous improvement.
Disagree. To stay the best you need constant improvement. But you can be the best one year and not the next. This year it's Chrysler's turn.
keep your car for 225,000
It is also faster to just open or close the sliding doors manually on either a Sienna or an Odyssey than to wait for the power feature to open or close the doors. :shades:
My Sienna is a BIG, costly disappointment. I will be glad to get back into a Chrysler. :shades:
Don't mention Odyssey transmissions to me. I have a 2002 Odyssey with 175,000 kms on it. I also have NOT had any mechanical problems.
If you are thinking about buying a Chrysler product maybe you should wait a year so that any bugs in these new Chrysler minivans are worked out and have consumer reports show alot more red dots.
That could be a smart move, as these 2008 minivans are new from the ground up. Plus, Chrysler is coming out with a whole new line of V-6 engines in the next year or two.They also have some new innovations to their new six speed automatic transmission.
The Phoenix engines were first discussed by "superduckie" way back in March 2006. “ask1919” wrote in April, “Phoenix will be a collection of V6 engines to replace the whole line.” oh20, whose track record has been 100% accurate on such breakthroughs as the Caliber and Sebring, wrote in July 2006 that the engines would include the following. (list updated May 2007). As of this last writing, all will have variable valve timing and some will even have multiple displacement, which is rare in a V6.
Chrysler wrote that: “The new Phoenix of V-6 engines will feature cylinder deactivation (MDS). Specifically, this means the engine will operate efficiently on three cylinders when less power is needed, and in V-6 mode when more power is needed. This optimizes fuel economy when V-6 power is not required – without sacrificing vehicle performance or capability.
“The new family of V-6 engines will feature an aluminum die cast block, dual variable valve timing (VVT) and a two-stage oil pump, among other technologies. The end result is an expected across-the-board V-6 fuel efficiency improvement of six to eight percent – in addition to new levels of V-6 power, performance and refinement.”
It would seem Chrysler has no intention of letting up on Honda and Toyota in their minivan market.
The 4.0 V6 is based on the multivalve 3.5 V6 that's been around a few years. This same 4.0 V6/6 spd auto has been used in the 07 Pacifica for the past year without problem.
I don't put much credit into CR's little black dots. I've compared them to my 05 DCX van and have yet to have any of their problems. I had a Chevy Cavalier that I put 180k very trouble free miles on, when CR said I should have bought a Honda or Toyota. Their recent comparison of the Chevy and Toyota pickup was so skewed to Toyota, so plainly biased....it was pathetic for CR!! Pick up any issue of CR and note what cars pics are always blastered their cover or lead page of articles....Japanese! Ohhh sure, they "balance" out the pics in the individual writeups but all additional pics are [non-permissible content removed], even if they do happen to approve a domestic model as a token gesture.
Actually my ex is a chasis engineer for GM, he's now in Australia working for Holden. If you get him talking, he'll tell you there's plus and minuses for both suspensions, and it's not strictly a cost issue. A Toyota/Chrysler system with coils and torsion beam is preferred if you're towing anything....it tracks truer, provides better control. The Honda's wishbones will give a better overall ride but most people wouldn't notice it unless you live on a rutted road someplace.
The same for pushrods. Many of the [non-permissible content removed] engines show impressive figures on paper but for example Torque is generated much higher in RPM band.
Sure, the 08 Dodge van is an improvement over the very outdated 07 vans (the 2nd row windows didn't even open). But we're not comparing those.
Now there's a "ice cream topping"....2nd row windows tha open!! How many people you see driving around with windows opened anymore? I'd rather stow n go seats, or power rear hatch, or power folding seats, or knee airbags, or back up camera... Things you can get on any DCX van, in any combination, that you can't on any other minivan.
As for the rear suspension. I think as long as the ride is smooth and stable, who is going to care what kind of suspension it has? I mean no one seems to care that Chrysler has self leveling shocks on the their vans and Honda doesn't.
From the article: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=122398
"One Winner, but It's Close
Dodge has built its best minivan ever in the new Grand Caravan. It's quick, comfortable, innovative. And with so many versions and so many options it's sure to deliver exactly what so many buyers are looking for. It's clearly...the second-best van on the market.
The Honda Odyssey, however, is still the best of the breed, and the best for breeders. It's quiet, beautifully finished and well equipped. It also handles better than some sedans and is the only minivan that could be considered a driver's car. It's the one Dad can drive without feeling like Mom.
And it's bound to get even better. For 2008 the Odyssey will receive a long list of revisions, including the adoption of Honda's second generation VCM cylinder cutoff system to improve fuel mileage. And the rest of minivandom continues to play catch-up."
Each of us will have a unique opinion, but I agree with Ward's and still think the Toyota 2GR V6 is the only minivan power mill among the 10 Best. More HP and more MPG.
Nice to see Chrysler is working on MDS and VVT.
dennis: not to dismiss your positive experience but you're comparing a sample of one vs. a sample of over 1000 (their minimum for each model to publish results) for Consumer Reports. I'll go with the 1000+, no offense.
Torsion beams are compact and cheap, those are the 2 primary reasons they are used. These vans tow 3500 lbs, no more than Honda does.
Check out the Toyota 2GR V6's torque curve, you don't think that's flat? Check out the low rpm torque. It's the one on the right.
LOLOLOL....just noticed "Breeders", there's only certain types of guys who use this term!!!
Ice Cream Toppings are OPTIONS, folks.
Things you get in the standard, base van are not ice cream toppings.
Things like windows that open in the 2nd row come in the base van. They are not options. All models have them.
I use them any time my kids are saying good bye to friends or family, so basically often.
I don't even understand this last paragraph:
I'd rather stow n go seats, or power rear hatch, or power folding seats, or knee airbags, or back up camera... Things you can get on any DCX van, in any combination, that you can't on any other minivan.
Just about every van out there has a power rear hatch, you say "can't on any other"?! Huh?
Same thing for backup cameras. All the vans I test drove had those.
Can't on any? That doesn't make sense.
Toyota had power folding seats way back in 2004.
You need to get out more often. Have you even looked at a Sienna? :confuse:
Chrysler deserves kudos for the Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling rear suspension, and 6 speed auto.
I'll give them kudos for the knee air bags if and only if their crash tests scores beat the competition, we'll have to wait and see on that one.
hansienna falls in the 21% of Sienna owners that will buy something else next time. He is in the minority, and he's very vocal for whatever reason.
Ask 2 Dodge/Chrysler owners and on average 1 of those 2 will tell you the same thing.
Bottom line is Sienna owners are happier on average.
Hopefully the Dodge numbers will improve substantially with the arrival of the 2008 models.
What I meant is Chrysler offers greater flexibility in adding options, whereas, with a Honda for example, you don't get a power hatch unless you get the top of the line. You can't add it to your LX or EX model. What about a DVD system in a Honda LX? Or you're an elderly couple with limited $$$ and have a hard time opening and closing doors/hatches?
I get out quite often, and looked at and test drove all minivans prior to buying my DCX. Hopefully you comprehend my explanation above now?
When it comes to airbags, test scores by some govt agency isn't the only thing that matters to me in deciding if I need a certain type of protection of not. Knee bags have been proven effective in keeping passengers in place in accidents instead of possibly sliding under the IP during an impact. The more airbags, the better....not topping.
Toyota is better than Honda, but the trade-off is Honda's simplicity, i.e. it's very easy to know what you are getting. This actually annoys a lot of people, you need a PhD to understand all the options packages on Toyota/Dodge vans.
I agree that air bags are not just a topping, but one would hope it's effective at actually making the vehicle safer.
The reason I'm skeptical on the knee air bags is that the Kia Sportage got them and still had a lousy performance in crash tests. Hopefully Dodge implemented them better.
Dodge has Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling rear suspension, Satellite TV, power folding 3rd row, 6 speed auto, and lifetime powertrain warranty.
Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats.
Toyota has power folding 3rd row, AWD, HIDs, run-flats, Direct Injection for the engine, power 3rd row vent windows, 3rd row that can tailgate, 8 seat model, Bluetooth, Laser Cruise Control, tow prep package standard, turn signal in the mirrors, telescoping wheel, auto express button moonroof, auto dimming driver's side mirror, fold flat passenger seat, 2 in glass antennae, 2 115 power outlets, battery saver.
Let me know what I missed. I own a Sienna so that's the one I know best, obviously.
And yes, for those wondering, now you can layer on all the ice cream toppings you want. It's all you can eat. :shades:
Realize there's more to safety than airbags, probably most important is the driver themself, followed by body structure.
But look at the RPMs, 4800???
I'll say again, in Canada (where I live) Honda does not have run-flat tires and Dodge/Chrysler does not offer lifetime warranties.
2002 Odyssey EX
1992 Ford Taurus 100
1982 Ford E150 Customized Travel Van
1979 Mercury Zephyr
1972 Datsun 510
1967 Plymouth Valiant
1965 Morris 1100
1963 Austin Mini
I'll say again, in Canada (where I live) Honda does not have run-flat tires and Dodge/Chrysler does not offer lifetime warranties.
THe Dodge/Chrysler both use regular gas. You should be happy Canada does not use run flat tires on the Honda. I have heard many complaints on them. Sorry Chrysler doesn't offer a lifetime warrany in Canada. That's one heck of a deal if you keep the van for four years or more.
I have MANY friends who are repeat Chrysler minivan owners and I know only one who would not buy another Caravan...But he did purchased and now drives a Chrysler PT Cruiser that replaced the Caravan.
BTW, since I am stuck with the Sienna, I am concentrating on the nice features like the most cargo area behind 3rd row seats of any minivan, the selector P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L, and the excellent "stand-alone" Oil/Oil Filter and if desired, Tire rotation facility of the selling Toyota dealership. :shades:
Not that I can complain about my Dodge dealer...it's a new facility, rated no. 1 in USA by Chrysler. They have a trendy little coffee bar, sandwich cafe, online access with secured PCs, HDTV etc....Ohh the service is great too
Well Hansienna, the Toyota minivans did have a lot of features on them and no one can say they didn't look and ride nice. Plus they had that Toyota reputation for quality. Although from what I have seen lately, Toyota's quality has gone down considerably. But you probably got a great van at the time.
I love my 2005 Dodge GC and all the features it has on it. But let's be serious, it looks very nice on the outside, but is bland in the inside. It only make up for it with stow-n-go seating which I use a heck of a lot. Looking at the inside of that 2008 though, makes my mouth water.
Not that I can complain about my Dodge dealer...it's a new facility, rated no. 1 in USA by Chrysler. They have a trendy little coffee bar, sandwich cafe, online access with secured PCs, HDTV etc....Ohh the service is great too
Well the Honda dealership we take our 2004 Civic to is very nice. They also wash your car when in for service and have free coffee, rolls, apples and etc.
My Dodge dealer only gives out free coffee and there are machines to buy snacks. They'll wash your vehicle if asked, but don't do it as part of the service as our Honda dealer does.
But I'm always getting discount coupons for service on my Dodge. They give you discount coupons for things like oil change for usually either $16.95 or $19.95. The Honda dealer is usually always around $27.95. In over two and a half years, I have never paid over $20.00, minus tax for an oil change at the dealership. I have two other coupons for $89.95 for brake replacement, metalic extra and tune up for $89.95. Regular maintence cost has been a lot less on the Dodge than the Civic. Both have been problem free though. Last year I got an oil change coupon for $16.95 and free wiper blades that they put on. I liked that one a lot.
Ice Cream Toppings are OPTIONS, folks.
Things you get in the standard, base van are not ice cream toppings.
That's not the way I look at it. The "toppings" can be either stand or option. The difference is that the "ice-cream" is the core of the vehicle (ride, handling, braking, quality, reliabilitiy, interior space, etc) that are common to every "sunday/minivan" while the "toppings" are the added unique items that some want and others do not (stowNgo, run flat tires, auto-folding rows, etc).
The important thing is, can you get what you want on your van at a reasonable price or don't they even offer it? Many of the things the Dodge/Chrysler offers now, Honda and Toyota don't even offer, no matter how much your willing to pay. If both the Honda and Dodge top out at $40,000.00 and the Dodge has 3,4,or 5 things the Honda doesn't have, does it make much difference many things on the Dodge were extra and standard on the Honda? It's only a shuffle game they play.
But DCX has lowered prices on the new vans They do it by beating the crap out of suppliers, demanding 10% "givebacks" per year until they go bankrupt or the part is sourced from China. My company stopped playing this game with the Big 3, after copper prices increased 4 times in past year, along with plastics (oil) increases, we were giving the farm away.
But DCX has lowered prices on the new vans They do it by beating the crap out of suppliers, demanding 10% "givebacks" per year until they go bankrupt or the part is sourced from China. My company stopped playing this game with the Big 3, after copper prices increased 4 times in past year, along with plastics (oil) increases, we were giving the farm away.
Japanese are famous for doing the same thing. As a matter of fact, they started it. The American manufactures were forced to follow or go under.
I have a video I taped many years ago somewhere around here, from a show like 20/20, where American part makers were complaining the Japanese were squeezing them dry asking for cheaper and cheaper parts. Many went out of business and when they did, the Japanese built their own plants and hired cheaper workers, or changed suppliers. They were doing the same thing to their suppliers in Japan.
If any of you have driven the new 2008 Chrysler Town and Country Limited with the self-leveling suspension, you would walk away with a better impression compared to the regular suspension. The drive and the looks inside are better.
The T&C I drove takes much quicker composed turns,steering more responsive providing better feedback - not numb like most reviews state for the GC. I
have a 97 GC Sport - the enhanced suspension helps it handle like a very good driving car - better than the regular 97 minivan.
That, to me, is the difference between the 2008 w/ self-leveling vs the 2008 without(you can buy as an option self-leveling for both T&C and GC). I thought the T&C drove great, the GC good. As I've mentioned before, better trim levels are available on the T&C. Check out the differences and let me know what you think.
For those of you out there into this - isn't a self-leveling suspension the ice-cream?
Nice job marine2. It would be nice if T&C/GC had a telescoping steering wheel. That's about all that isn't available. Although, even with the leather seats included suede inserts,I wish there was less vinyl. And it looks like the 3rd row is all vinyl. Can't remember the last time I sat on vinyl seats. Leather & fabric, yes. But vinyl? How are those in the summer? If wearing shorts, does your skin stick to it? I know I can always hit the remote starter to get the AC going.
I feel like buying something to replace the 97GC, although with 103K it still drives fine. Just that after 10 yrs, starting to want something new. Still love my 2005 300C.
So don't know if I will wait to see the VW minivan version or what else coming out. It's nice not having to need a new vehicle. But just want one.
Doesn't power adjustable pedals negate the need for telescoping?
I like sitting pretty far back. No problem with my feet to peddle distance. But my arms are pretty stretched out when sitting far back. So, a telescoping steering wheel will bring the steering wheel in closer so arms can be less extended.
One thing is certain, though: The company that invented the minivan still builds the best minivans you can buy.
What Edmunds.com says
Handsome, packed full of thoughtful features and offering almost endless entertainment options, the 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan reclaims its spot as a top-tier minivan.
The Japanese machines still hold an edge in interior finish, the dashes in the Honda and Toyota are large, unbroken expanses of rich looking material, whereas the Dodge uses harder plastic with an abundance of cut lines. But in every other way the Dodge felt the equal or superior vehicle.
Wheels Ca
"Chrysler laid on both a Toyota Sienna and a Honda Odyssey for back-to-back comparisons. These two suggest that the Japanese are still ahead on interior trim quality.
Chrysler recently upped the interior ante on its big sedans; a similar program should be in the works for the minivans, if it isn't already.
It's better than it was, just not at the top level yet.
And the mighty Odyssey engine is still the best in the field.
But for choice, features, functionality and value, the Chrysler minivan still rules."
Toronto Star
http://www.wheels.ca/newsFeatures/article/30709
What handbook are you looking at? I have a 2007 Sienna and can't seem to find this information you apparently found. My owner's manual says regular and does not even mention premium.
"OCTANE RATING
Select Octane Rating 87 (Research Octane Number 91) or higher. For improved vehicle performance, use premium unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 (Research Octane Number 96) or higher.
Use of unleaded gasoline with an octane rating or research octane number lower than stated above will cause persistent heavy knocking. If it is severe, this will lead to engine damage." (end of quote)
To Locate this information, look at the index at the back of the Sienna's Owner's Manual in the "F" section to locate "Fuel information" (page 510 of 2006 Sienna Owner's Manual).
I have used 85 octane (high altitude) most of the time except when driving below altitude 2,000 feet when I use 91 octane to bring average above 87...and then refill with 87. I have NEVER heard engine knock on my 2006 Sienna. Overall average is 24.8 MPG at 17,603 miles since purchase. Recent 215 mile round trip yielded 31.7 MPG ( 215.2 miles divided by 6.799 gallons. Filled at same pump before and after trip.) :shades:
Could you quote the page number in the 2007 Sienna Owner's Manual where it says the engine uses regular with no disclaimer than better performance will not be achieved with premium fuel?
I would check your 2007 Sienna's owner's manuel. I have found errors in Consumers Guide.