Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

shonda3 · December 2009

Dear Jeb: I am in the same boat as you and countless others. My only consolation has been killing Honda sales. So far, I have ruined five sales that I know of. It is very satisfying. People are buying VW TDIs and Toyota Priuses. Try it. You'll enjoy the revenge.

Ogre_GEV · December 2009

SGI, regarding your Accord with 76K miles, did they give you a printout with the error codes? If not, go back and tell them you want (in writing), what error codes were present.

Save this information. Your warranty is up in 4K miles, and they may have glossed over a repair that you had coming to you, or the problem may recur, and if you have proof that it happened before 80K, you will be able to get it fixed under warranty later.

Ogre_GEV · December 2009

shonda3,

BMW did a similar thing to their 3 series cars that detuned them to avoid replacing rattling turbo wastegates. After public outcry, they fixed the software to put the performance back. If enough media coverage hits on this topic (such as Consumer Reports), they will fix the problem, otherwise they are just sweeping it under the rug.

Meanwhile, I'm not seeing anything inherently different about the 2006+ batteries over the earlier models. They seem to fail the same way and the same amount.

spoograb · December 2009

I live in CT and the weather is usually in the 80s in the summer and 20s in the winter. I own a 2009 HCH purchased back in march of 09. I now just reached 6k miles and for some reason, now with the cold weather every time i start the car and get on the main road, the battery looses almost all charge and forces itself into forced regeneration. It happened once or twice back in early november when the weather was starting to get brisk (40s and 50s) and now all of a sudden it happens every morning. Xmas eve, it was 42 degrees out which is quite warm for this time of year and it still did it. I took it to the dealership and Honda said it was absolutely normal and they did "updates" which they said the car already had... Anyways, so this morning it was 18 degrees out and the battery complelely discharged when I pulled on the main road and suddenly within two minutes was completely charged again. My ride into work is 10 miles and today it happened 3 times on the way into work and 2 times on the way home this evening. Honda claims this is normal in "very cold" weather. But 1, it's not VERY COLD and 2, so why would I spend the extra $5,000 on a hybrid if it doesn't work in the winter? I called another dealership nearby and they said the car was not made for the new england climate. Ironically, they always have special offers on these civic hybrids and I see quite a few of them on the roads everyday. Also, because of Honda's broken product, I was inconvienced by not having a car for 5 days while they tried to figure out what was wrong with it. I filed a complaint with Honda America and they said they will be getting back to me by Wednesday. I purchased a civic hybrid because i liked it and because i've owned honda's all my life, so I want my car fixed!

Anyone else have similar problems?

MB_in_MN · December 2009

We live in MN and the weather is much colder than what you normally have. After our first battery went out last year (just before Christmas), I discussed this with my sales guy and he did some behind the scenes checking. The word he got back was that there is a problem with the batteries and cold weather; this confirms what Honda told you. If you know any physics or chemistry, you will know that there is a temperature coefficient in the battery equations, and at low temps things slow down, which means reduced voltage and current. So, in a way this is all "normal," but it does point out a weakness in the entire technology. (BTW, there are a number of posts from SW area owners, and they have a different problem in hot weather, but it is still a temperature issue.) You can expect your mileage to drop significantly in the cold weather. How much will depend on several factors, with temp probably being most important. The gas is also re-formulated for cold weather, so that will also be a factor.

Like you I am a long-time Honda owner, but this issue has me worried. I will post some economic calculations a little later, but as you look through this thread you will find quite a few people who are mad. Some have been treated badly, by their accounts, and Honda has not provided their own side of the story, so I don't know what to think about it.

MB_in_MN · December 2009

We had our second battery failure recently - first they did the famous "upgrade" which caused the IMA light to go off, and then a week later the light came on and this time they said it needed a new battery.

The service rep briefly went through the diagnostic procedure, and, to summarize, it is "Hybrid Repair for Dummies." It is a checklist procedure, and depending on the results you either do an upgrade or replace the battery. There is really no thinking involved on the part of the technician. The upgrade is done via an online connection so everything is automated.

The point of this post is for everyone to realize where to focus their energy (and frustration, and for a few people, hatred). The techs do not have the training to know much about the system; they can only go through their checklist. I think even the service reps (the guys at the counter who greet you and try to calm you down) know very little about the actual details of these systems, so I can't fault them for not knowing every little nuance of the hybrid system.

This may explain why they are unable (or unwilling, as some claim) to deal with an upgrade problem if the IMA light does not come on. If there are no error codes there is nothing they can do about it, because there is nothing that they can fix, according to their procedures. (And in this case, I have some understanding of Honda's position - you can't simply spend time and money on every complaint about gas mileage that comes along; there are too many other variables, mostly driver related. If there aren't any error codes, what are they supposed to fix?) Now, this does not excuse them from recognizing that a problem exists, but I can't blame the dealers for not being able to address this issue. The dealers are probably our best way to get the message through to Honda corporate, so we need to find a way for them to help us.

spoograb · December 2009

It is such a shame this happens? Over the summer, I would get 48-50mpg strickly back roads no highway or city. Now I get 38 but that isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is the fact I know every day when I turn onto the main road I barely have enough power to accelerate to 50mph and the fact that the battery goes through these calibrations 5 times a day means it will probably fail within a year or two as these batteries are not meant to completely drain 5 times a day! I am going to see if somehow I can break a deal with Honda to give me an LX for an equal value and keep my financing the same. I don't want an LX or EX but that is what I had before my hybrid and it worked marvelous in the heat and the cold and never once had to worry about it. Winter is November through March/April and I refuse to go through this every single year. What year is your HCH? Everyone says the second generation HCH is much more reliable than the first which I can't beleive as it is a problem either way in heat or cold. Another thing is that when I ask a question to a Honda technician, I expect an answer that is actually intelligent. I don't blame the tech for not being knowledgeable about the car, but Honda Corporate as they don't pass technical information along to the service department :[ American Honda should be calling me tomorrow so I will see what they have to say! I hope for the best and I want to keep me car!

MB_in_MN · December 2009

I have been following this thread for a while now, and it occurred to me that no one has really discussed the economics of the hybrid. We all bought this car for one reason or another - use less gas/save the planet, save money from using less gas, making a statement, etc. But what are the actual numbers?

Let's assume you drive a certain distance (D). The gallons required to drive this distance is calculated from the hybrid's mileage (H). So, gallons = D/H. The gallons required to drive the same distance in a regular car depends on the regular car's mileage (R), and = D/R.

The cost to drive this distance is the number of gallons times the price per gallon (P) and = DP/H and DP/R for the hybrid and regular cars, respectively.

So, let's assume your hybrid gets 45 mpg (no screams about upgrade mileage please, let's use the optimistic numbers), and a regular car gets 30 mpg.

So, to drive 1000 miles using gas at $4/gal:
Hybrid: 22.2 gal, $88.89
Regular: 33.3 gal, $133.33
Savings: 11.1 gal, $44.44

Under these conditions, after about 56,000 miles, you have saved enough to cover the cost of a new battery (at a replacement cost of $2500), which means you have still saved money, even if you have to replace the battery at 81,000 miles. However, with gas at $3/gal, the break even point is at 75,000, which means it's a wash.

Note that these calculations do not factor in the increased cost of the vehicle ($5000 est.), in which case the numbers blow up. Break even happens at 75,000 only if gas goes to $9/gal, or you are comparing against a 21 mpg SUV.

So, the bottom line is - driving a hybrid will reduce your gas consumption, which is a good thing for many reasons. However, it is not something you should do for economic reasons.

MB_in_MN · December 2009

spoograb:
We have the 2009 hybrid, and the replacement battery went out at about 14,000 miles of use, almost exactly a year from when it was installed. I am assuming this is "second generation" but I have not followed the development cycle that closely. Either way, I am not impressed with this generation, whichever one it is.

Too bad; it's a nice car otherwise.

Kirstie_H · December 2009

Hi MB, we're specifically discussing the Civic Hybrid, and IMA problems associated with that vehicle. We have a bunch of more general hybrid topics on the main hybrid page. I think you'd find a better audience for your comments by posting in one of those discussions.

gregr2 · December 2009

Had the IMA battery changed out on my 2009 Civic last week. So far so good. MPG is back up to 38-39. I remain skeptical wheter I will get the same mpg as advertised. I am a conservative driver and was getting 42 mpg before the first battery failed.

spoograb · December 2009

1. kristie_h, I brought up the subject of my IMA battery not working top notch which is how MB got into the economics of a hybrid. Sorry!
2. MB, I cannot beleive you have a 2009 that has had 2 battery replacements so far. Honestly, if I were you, I would ask for a gas only car. The stress of having to bring your car into the dearlership every year to two years for a battery relacement just doesn't make sense.
3. gregr2, where are you from? I'm having these problems in new england.

dougklast · January 2010

Last year our 2006 Civic Hybrid, stared getting about 36 miles per gallon instead of 39, which is still way below what they said it would get when new. The dealership said nothing was wrong with it. We joined a class action suit that offered us $2,000 towards a new Honda, we took a pass. Six months ago the hybrid battery was so weak, the IMA light went on. The dealer said he fixed it, but all he did was reset the warning light. One week later, the IMA battery was so weak, the backup starter and battery had to start the car in the morning. With the IMA completely dead, the car still got 34 miles per gallon. The dealership took 2 months to get us a new battery. I'm done with Honda hybrids. They claim a 1% failure rate? No way. I'd bet it's closer to 100%, than 1%.

dougklast · January 2010

BTW, after the software "upgrade", with a new battery, the1996 Honda Civic Hybrid only got 34 mpg. That tells me the upgrade is to keep the hybrid batteries from failing, mileage be damned.

magsm · January 2010

A few weeks after the upgrade, my 2009 Civic gets 32-34 mpg around town, 37 highway. I've warned those I know not to buy this car. Wish there was a better way to get the message to the population BEFORE they buy!

jeb858 · January 2010

Coming from a manufacturer background most of the time the dealership service department hands are tied by the what the tech hotline and Field Service Engineer are advising for repairs especially when it comes to an expensive battery which I need.

At this point opening a case with Honda's customer service department. My car is not performing as it did when it was new and I will not put my wife in a cat that I don't feel is safe when it loses battery assist at the worst possible time.

I am going to investigate the NHTSB website to look into the safety angle. Don't forget, three repeat repairs or 30 days out of service qualify for lemon law.

jeb858 · January 2010

I went to the NTSB website which is www.safecar.gov and pulled up concerns that have been filed with the Civic hybrid. I couldn't believe how many complaints have been filed for the IMA system. I will be sending mine in tomorrow morning. Take a minute to read through them and you will see the common theme....loss of battery.

There are also concerns with the power steering and rear control arms.

gregr2 · January 2010

It is amazing that HOnda has kept this under wraps - there should be a massive recall of the cars.

selinz · January 2010

I have measured and believe that I can still get 45-50mpg driving 50 miles (one way commute). The following things reduce mileage 1) AC 2) Heater 3) Cold weather 4) "non-hard" tires (3-5mpg). I switched to Yokohama 520's because they perform great and are pretty cheap. I monitor ALL of my mileage by recording the odometer reading and recording the number of gallons placed in my tank.
I have the following observations:
1) The Honda mileage readout is ALWAYS worse than what I actually get using the gallons and odometer calcuation. With the "hard" tires, this can be as much as 5mpg, with the Yokohamas this is usually 1 to 3
2) I get 50mpg at 55mpg, 45 mpg at 65mph and about 41 at 75. I usually drive around 73. This is not surprising. E=1/2MVsquared
3) My route takes me up and down three major hills, one of which ALWAYS completely drains the IMA battery (but it gets charged up on the way down. This is how it's supposed to work!). So you figure a minimum of 3 complete cycles per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year and you have 2250 complete charge drain cycles minimum.
4) Recently the car sat for a week in pretty cold (for Cali) weather, 40s or so. When I first got in it the battery read full, then immediately dropped to 2 or 3 bars. I put the car into S (a trick to make the car more aggressively charge the battery) and the IMA light came on, along with the check engine light. I continued to drive and after one commute cycle, the IMA light was off but the check engine light was on. After another day, the check engine light went off too... Thus, I believe that my battery is beginning to show some age. However, driving it daily has resulted in pretty good results. Still getting 43mpg or so...
The car is 3 years old and I have 115K miles.
5) I have been getting "random" power steering failures since the car was new. Quite infrequent in general, a bit more frequent in the winter. I simply stop the engine and restart it... Works almost 100% of the time on the second try.
6) Overall I'd give the car a B+ on performance and B- on "problems."
:surprise:

jeb858 · January 2010

If those light were on you will have codes saved in the respective modules that control the hybrid devices. The dealer would be able to retrieve the codes and advise what the concern is.

gmackey · January 2010

I've had my 2009 HCH for about 18 months. It currently has just under 13,000 miles on it. Last year, in March, after about 7,000 miles, the IMA light came on. I took the car to the dealer and after 2 days of diagnostics, they announced that the IMA (batteries) failed. They had to get the parts shipped in and had replaced it 3 days later. My gas mileage before the replacement was around 43-48 on the highway. Afterwards, it dropped to 39-43.

Now, 7,000 miles later, the IMA light came on again. I just took my HCH to the dealer yesterday. No news yet, but I suspect the IMA will need to be replaced again.

So, after less than 13,000 miles the IMA (the thing that makes it a hybrid) fails twice. One interesting note... the service tech that was checking me in yesterday said there was a recall notice on the IMA. He couldn't see when the notice was issued though. I'll post more information when I hear back from the service tech. Also, I wanted to point out that my first failure (when the light actually came on) was in moderate weather conditions (Spring in Georgia). This last failure came in Winter. I'm not sure that weather has anything to do with my particular IMA failure.

dougklast · January 2010

Most of you with HCH's, probably, have watched your energy using and recharging indicator. Notice the difference in how much battery power is being used, after the dealership adjusts your cars computer to use less battery power. This is Honda's response to deal with failed batteries. Your car is now much less demanding on the Hybrid battery. My gas mileage isn't any better, now, than on my standard gas powered Civic. But, the batteries will last a long time, saving Honda many millions of dollars.

When Honda first adjusted my HCH, after I complained that the IMA failure indicator lit up and poor gas mileage, I thought they just reset the light. The IMA failure light went out and mostly stayed out. The only time it briefly went back on, was when the battery was so dead, that it wouldn't start the car. Then, it went back out again. Now, I know they uploaded software to the onboard computer, to make the car put much less demand on the hybrid battery. The mileage, with the new battery, is identical to the mileage with the dead battery.

gregr2 · January 2010

my experience was identical. My battery has been replaced and my mileage has dropped about 6-8 mpg from what I first had the Honda. I agree that Honda has done something to the system to put less demand on the batteries therefore resulting in poorer mpg. A real rip off in my opinion

dwa2 · January 2010

Please advise if there are any recalls. I have a 2009 Honda Civic with 11,000 miles it. The IMA light went on this week. I brought it in and it shows a battery module deterioration. The updated the IMA battery and PGM-FI Update and told me this was a softwear issue, and that I was all set. Can I expect further problems?

I asked if this was a recall issue and they told me no. Please advise if there are any recalls on the 2009 IMA Hybrid. The Fail Code was P07AF if anyone can tell me if this is something to worry about, please let me know.

beny75 · January 2010

Hi Doug. I also have a 2006 that has 127,000 miles and the IMA and check engine lights just came on. Regarding the class action suit, I received a notice in the mail for John True v. AHMC but the rebate towards a new Honda was only $1,000. Did you join this lawsuit or a different one?

coachpatch · January 2010

It sounds like my wife's 2008 HCH is doing the same thing, and the service people are basically calling her an idiot. She claims that sometimes when she needs to accelerate that the assist motor doesn't come on and the car begins to jerk. None of the tech's can duplicate the problem so they're are no help at all. Is this a recurring problem with this model? I know nothing bout hybrids but like you I don't want my wife driving a vehicle that is unsafe. Can you or someone else explain to me what the potential problem is and why Honda won't address the issue?

dougklast · January 2010

In my opinion, Honda should offer all HCH owners a refund of at least $5,000.00, to cover the added cost over a standard Civic, without any added benefit; or, fix the IMA so that the car gets the advertised gas mileage.

shonda3 · January 2010

BINGO! But, they won't. Our only hope is to keep trashing Honda-- they deserve it. When they see their bottom line affected, then maybe they'll do the right thing. For some reason, American Honda thinks that they are better off screwing their existing customer base in order to save the cost of valid repairs. That's why they have all those computer "patches" which do nothing more than disable the hybrid system.

mo_honda_owner · January 2010

Thanks to all who have posted here. Reading this has been quite educational. I have been a loyal owner of several Hondas, but I'm concerned that my/the HCH has a serious problem

I took delivery of my 2006 HCH in January 2006 in Kansas City. We have four seasons here, but typical temperature does not fall below 0 or exceed 100 often. Put 80K miles on the car in 38 months, and I was pretty happy with it. Mileage dropped in cold weather, but still got 35-37 MPG, somewhat better in moderate temperature weather (50s to 70s).

Just before 80K miles (slightly over three years), I took it into the dealer with a battery problem. They told me it was the front battery, claiming it had been discharged due to leaving an internal light on. I raised the question of whether there was a problem with the IMA system, and was told there wasn't. (After reading these posts, I've come to doubt that claim, but at least I got it in before the 80K warranty expired.) A good battery charge and clearing the code got me back on the road.

My son took it to college, where he didn't drive it much. This winter, during a cold snap, the front battery went bad. That caused the IMA system not to work properly. As others have described, severe loss of power, lack of recharging, etc.

My usual sources for batteries for my other cars--Wal-Mart, Sears, NTB--wouldn't touch the front battery. The only explanation I got was that they feared replacing the front battery would cause computer problems, so I had to take it to the dealer.

The dealer replaced the front battery for $105. It also applied some software "updates" to fix the problems allegedly caused by the front battery going bad, and cleared all of the codes that were recorded on the computer. They didn't charge for these other services, perhaps because I told them about all these postings I was reading and wondered aloud if Honda has a serious battery problem it's not disclosing. The service rep. said that the new battery was a 100 month Honda battery more powerful than the 36 month Honda battery that had gone bad at 48 months.

Son took the car back to college last week, but got only 30-31 mpg post-software updates. So I'm concerned that the main function of the upgrades was to reduce the strain on the electric portion of the drive system. Consistent with what others report, now it seems to be an underpowered Civic (due to those heavy batteries under the back seat) that cost $4k more than a Civic EX and $5K more than an LX Yet a few minutes ago I heard a Honda commercial extolling the great mileage of a new Civic Hybrid.

I suspect the speculation on these postings is correct. In taking discovery against some companies, you find internal e-mails or memos recognizing problems and trying to figure out how to cover them up and/or avoid dealing with the problem. If there is internal recognition of the problem, then you look to see what the company has told dealers to tell customers, and what advertising it uses for the product.

Chances are the problems aren't disclosed, because if they were sales would drop and probably not recover. Unsuspecting folks who buy the product not knowing of the problem are likely to be upset when they encounter the problem, and may feel mislead.

Typically I keep my cars until they wear out, but now I'm concerned I should trade the car in. (Better to sell it back to the dealer than to defraud some unsuspecting member of the public who just wants reliable transportation.) I wonder what the trade-in or resale value of the car is, with these problems surfacing. Has anyone tried a trade-in and gotten burned?

Specifically, what is the trade in value of a HCH as compared to a Civic LX with comparable mileage? One might suspect it's lower, since the dealer probably knows about these problems and might have trouble reselling it. So not only did I pay $5K more than an LX, the resale value might be lower too. That's why you read people's questions about class actions.

Lesson: Don't let the front battery die completely. Get it changed before it discharges completely, and maybe you won't need the software upgrades. Keep the car in a heated garage if you can to avoid the strain on the battery.

And present your story here so that we can document whether Honda will step up to the plate for its loyal customers. Good luck.

shonda3 · January 2010

You raise an interesting question. Will disconnecting the front battery erase the codes that the dealershiips have been installing to limit the hybrid system's capabilities? Does anyone know?

jeb858 · January 2010

Good Morning,
Vehicle software updates and patches are a one way street.
Codes can somtime be erased by disconnecting the battery but using a scan tool is much more effective. Any time codes are erased the OBDII monitors will be reset and the vehicle might drive a little different for a short time.
All these "updates" do not address the fact that our vehicles are not meeting the expectations of the hybrid vehicle that we were so excited about when we first purchased our cars.

Ogre_GEV · January 2010

No, they are installing new versions of the software.

dieseldawg · January 2010

My IMA failed at aprox. 100k miles when the IMA light came on, which caused the check engine light to come on also. I've been driving the car with a subsequent reduced mileage, but otherwise no serious problem. Trouble is, with the check engine light on, the car won't pass emmissions inspection in PA. I can't see replacing the IMA battery at the unrealistically high price Honda wants, but don't know what to do about emmissions inspection. I can reset the check engine light with a diagnostic computer, but the IMA light, and the check engine light both come on again as soon as the IMA tries to supply power to the IMA motor. As long as the IMA is generating, both lights stay off.

Any ideas about what I might do? Don't care if the IMA works, just want to drive the car and pass inspection.

a_weaver12 · January 2010

I really appreciate the help some of you guys have been on the forum. I own a 2003 HCH with just under 104,000 on it. We had a new transmission put in at 96,000 on our honeymoon. For the last 6 months, we've had the check engine light on for the catalytic converter and the IMA light going on for a couple weeks and off for a week randomly. The Honda dealer has given us the updates for the computer (which we had to tell them that there were updates). Just recently, our front battery died (which is on about the 40th month of a 100 month battery). We bought the car used so we don't get the warranty on the front battery. Now the IMA and check engine lights are off. I suspect they will come back on within a week.

My questions were:

1. How much does the IMA battery deterioration effect the front battery?

2. We have looked at the hybrid battery repair online out of NY. Has anyone got their battery rebuilt from a refurbishing company? Is it worth the cost?

3. While obviously replacing the front battery, would it be wiser to repair the IMA first or the cataytic converter if only one was an option because of cost?

4. How much damage would it be to wait until the IMA deteriorates to get it refurbished rather than now?

dieseldawg · January 2010

You obviously make your own decision about what to do, but I can give you some facts to help you decide.

1. In perfect condition, the resale value of your 2003 HCH is about $6000, at best.
2. Replacing the IMA battery will cost $3000, with a new battery, with an 80k miles warranty
3. Depending on the catalytic converter, it can cost $1500(front converter) or $1000(rear converter). The good one will go bad shortly after the other, so you must eventually replace both.
4. The O2 sensors will go shortly after the converters($1000 repair).
5. The front 12 volt battery is not affected by the IMA, except that the IMA charges the front 12v battery, but will not damage it. Replacing the 12v battery is the same as in any other vehicle, and can be done yourself for the cost of a battery. The IMA disables charging of the 12v battery at engine rpms over 4000, and heavy engine load, so running for very long times under these conditions(over 75mph) will eventually cause the 12v battery to totally discharge. The red battery symbol on the dash tells when the 12v battery isn't charging.
6. The software 'updates' will eventually cause your mileage to approach that of a normal, non-hybrid Civic, because they are designed to put less strain on the IMA battery.

I have discovered all of this by first hand experience, the dealer will try to get you to pay to do all of the repairs. I am running my HCH without the IMA, which is almost the same as with the IMA with the software 'updates'. The only problem I have is that the check engine light is on, and the car will not pass emmissions inspection that way in my state. I am working on a way to fool the IMA system into thinking the IMA battery is OK, and not turn on the IMA light, or the check engine light.

Ogre_GEV · January 2010

Smith brothers can rebuild the cat cheaply (not for CA).

> How much damage would it be to wait until the IMA deteriorates to get it refurbished rather than now?

That really depends on what the problem is. If you are getting assist and regen, then it will cause further deterioration of the battery and increase the number of cells that have to be replaced. if you are not getting any assist because the car is bypassing the IMA system, then it won't matter.

Above 3500 the IMA cuts out charging the 12V battery. If the hybrid battery is good, it won't matter, but if the IMA system is not performing, your battery light will illuminate and it will stress the 12V battery. Drive more gently and you won't pass 3500 rpm.

You will find a number of people over on Insightcentral who've had their batteries repaired and can relate their experience. The Insight community is smaller than the Civic's and they tend to be fanatical about their cars and go to greater lengths to preserve and modify their vehicles.

Ogre_GEV · January 2010

>I am working on a way to fool the IMA system into thinking the IMA battery is OK, and not turn on the IMA light, or the check engine light.

The cheapest solution is to buy a junkyard battery, put it in, pass emissions, and then take it out and put it away for a year. the junkyard pack will work fine for a short period - enough to cover 2-3 days per year of use for a decade or more.

Or you could just fix it.

jeb858 · January 2010

Code P0A7F = hybrid battery pack deterioration

MB_in_MN · January 2010

We had the update done just before our third battery failed. Like you, I didn't see any change in how the assist operated. I can't say anything about mileage because of the cold weather and reformulated gas in the winter, but the car does not drive any different than before.

I can't explain why some people seem to be having a problem after the update but others do not. There is obviously another factor here that we are missing.

Were there any other notes on your service invoice? Were any other procedures performed? Ours included a "clutch learn" item, that the tech said reset the IMA settings. Wonder if that is related to any of this?

Ogre_GEV · January 2010

>The Honda techs said I had popped code P0A7F.
That means that the battery is degraded to the point that it is running below 10% of its' original capacity. Basically, it's shot.

>I'm not the best hybrid driver, but before going in my MPG readout said 39.6. Four
>days later it's reading 40.7! I haven't changed my driving style, so it seems, for now,
>that things are actually getting better.

The car was devoting 5mpg or so toward charging your old battery (constantly). Your new battery does not need this, so you are seeing a boost. What was your mileage when you first got the car? It should be a little lower now because of winter gas.

bottomsup · January 2010

I have been experiencing similar problems with my '06. A lot of regens and just diminished battery performance. Finally the IMA light came on. The dealer ran diagnostics and came up with error code P0A7F. They said that they will need to apply four updates first and then retest for error. If it still reports the error then they can order a replacement battery.

So I'm in this predicament. Do I get the updates and hope the error still comes up? If I do need to replace the battery, I'm afraid that the updates will "mask" it and not report the error and I'm left with more problems.

dwa2 · January 2010

My IMA light came on too. It also had a fail code of PO7AF. It only had 11,000 miles on it! How in the world could the battery be shot!!! They did not tell me that if the IMA light came back on that I could get a new battery. Was the software upgrade a temporary fix. Would I be smart to trade it in whlle it is still getting 41.4 miles to the gallon?

jeb858 · January 2010

The updates will remove alot of hybrid assist and in my opinion cover up a multitude of concerns with the IMA system. The bottom line is I do not have the same car that I did when I purchased the vehicle!

gregr2 · January 2010

I agree with Jeb. I had my 2009 civic battery replaced and now I'm getting about 10 miles per gallon less than I was getting when I first bought the car.

As I stated before, I am amazed that this problem with these vehicles has been kept relatively quiet. Honda continues to sell these vehicles as fast as they can get them on the lot.

Ogre_GEV · January 2010

>My IMA light came on too. It also had a fail code of PO7AF. It only had 11,000
>miles on it! How in the world could the battery be shot!!!

Seriously, how often do you drive your car that it only had 11,000 miles on it? The #1 killer of batteries is leaving the car to sit for weeks at a time. A single 90 day event is enough to guarantee a failure within one year. This is not a fault of Honda, but a simple fact of physics based on the design of the car. I see lots of 2003 HCHs with 160,000 or more miles before a failure and there are no fundamental differences between the gen 1 (2003-2005) and gen 2 (2006+) packs. These people, however, drove their cars 20K miles or more per year. I've also gotten in a couple of 100K packs from 2006 and one 2006 with only 30K miles, but it was a salvage vehicle and sat parked for six months as it was repaired.

>They did not tell me that if the IMA light came back on that I could get a new
>battery.

For the duration of your 8/80,000 mile warranty, if your IMA light illuminates and the error codes report a battery problem, it will be replaced for free, as many times as necessary. That warranty expires at the 80,000 mile mark even if the battery went in the day before.

After the warranty period, if you pay for a battery, it comes with a 3 year warranty (on just the battery).

From the 2000-2006 Insights and the 2003-2005 Civics, I have seen enough batteries to state that most last about 7 years (no matter what the mileage is), provided the car is a daily driver. I don't have enough information about the 2006+ models, but I know enough about the batteries to know that the changes are minor (10% more cells, more compact package, some sensors eliminated, etc). Insight owners are unhappy with the latest software also, as it makes it harder to hypermile.

>Was the software upgrade a temporary fix.

I wouldn't call it a fix, I'd call it a re-tuning of the BMS (Battery Managment System). It may help tremendously with your usage patterns - or not. It is not temporary. This is how the car will behave from now on, unless the software is updated again.

>Would I be smart to trade it in whlle it is still getting 41.4 miles to the gallon?

And get what? A 30mpg car? You've already taken the depreciation hit. Over those 11,000 miles, you are talking an MPG difference of what, 50 gallons? So how big a hit will you take? $150?

You've got 4-7 years left on your warranty depending on the year of your car. It's unlikely that you'll drive more than 10,000 miles per year, so the warranty will keep you up and running for some time to come (enough time for any replacement vehicle to have gone from new car to old car). Catalytic converters are covered by federal 8/80 warranties, and the car isn't known for being overly unreliable (quite the contrary). So why switch?

bottomsup · January 2010

> ...if your IMA light illuminates and the error codes report a battery problem, it will be replaced for free...

Is it that simple? My light came on with the P0A7F error code reported. Honda requires you to update the softwares first. They won't replace the battery until the error code returns. The dealer tells me this is the process that hs to be followed.

How does a software fix a battery?

bottomsup · February 2010

I'm going off on a tangent but, has anyone looked into or sold their civic hybrid? Where would be a good place to sell? Does Carmax offer good price?

nataliem · February 2010

Honestly I got a better payoff at the dealership where I bought my new vehicle at. I bought a Nissan at Gunn Nissan. I think Gunn is only in Texas so I would suggest go to Carmax to at least get an offer but also give the dealership a chance.

accord_owner · February 2010

I bought an 09 HCH in September 09 on the west side of Los Angeles. It was manufactured a year earlier and originally on a sales floor in Riverside, CA.

Just like many others, at 6500 miles the IMA light came on, went away, then came on a couple more times. I started reading these boards and decided there was no way I was going to get the 'update' until I had to (assuming I needed it - some 09's apparently already have it).

Well, the driver's side window malfunctioned and I decided that, since the window needed fixing, I'd just go ahead and see what happens with the update - I'm not going to sell it with the light on and I'll need it gone to pass emissions - I've read posts on how to fool emissions, but eh.

So I got the update on 1/30/09 and noticed that the mpg dropped to 36 driving around the side streets. I had *always* gotten around 43 prior to that. I keep a log at each fill-up.

So, I started getting worried b/c it's happening... The same thing everyone else is posting about is happening. BUT today on a roundtrip to work and back (40 miles total) on the freeway I get 48 mpg! That's never happened.

I've noticed that the car is acting much differently. It has a lot more power as it's warming up and the battery gauge is all over the place. It's full one moment and then empty the next w/o even driving very hard. It acts this way until it warms up and reaches some level of steady-state. Also, while driving on side streets it seems like it is depending more on the gas engine than before.

It will take time to verify, but I think this 'update' makes it perform less well on side streets and better on freeways. That might explain why some people have a good experience with the update and others do not.

Oh, and the window - They wouldn't fix it on the first trip and only lubricated the guide channel for a short-term fix. On the second visit they will replace the regulator for a real fix. I don't have time for this.

accord_owner · February 2010

To follow up on my previous post on Feb 1... After a week of driving I am getting 46 mpg. It looks like the software update did not impact the efficiency for me in my situation, so far

Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems

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