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Save this information. Your warranty is up in 4K miles, and they may have glossed over a repair that you had coming to you, or the problem may recur, and if you have proof that it happened before 80K, you will be able to get it fixed under warranty later.
BMW did a similar thing to their 3 series cars that detuned them to avoid replacing rattling turbo wastegates. After public outcry, they fixed the software to put the performance back. If enough media coverage hits on this topic (such as Consumer Reports), they will fix the problem, otherwise they are just sweeping it under the rug.
Meanwhile, I'm not seeing anything inherently different about the 2006+ batteries over the earlier models. They seem to fail the same way and the same amount.
Anyone else have similar problems?
Like you I am a long-time Honda owner, but this issue has me worried. I will post some economic calculations a little later, but as you look through this thread you will find quite a few people who are mad. Some have been treated badly, by their accounts, and Honda has not provided their own side of the story, so I don't know what to think about it.
The service rep briefly went through the diagnostic procedure, and, to summarize, it is "Hybrid Repair for Dummies." It is a checklist procedure, and depending on the results you either do an upgrade or replace the battery. There is really no thinking involved on the part of the technician. The upgrade is done via an online connection so everything is automated.
The point of this post is for everyone to realize where to focus their energy (and frustration, and for a few people, hatred). The techs do not have the training to know much about the system; they can only go through their checklist. I think even the service reps (the guys at the counter who greet you and try to calm you down) know very little about the actual details of these systems, so I can't fault them for not knowing every little nuance of the hybrid system.
This may explain why they are unable (or unwilling, as some claim) to deal with an upgrade problem if the IMA light does not come on. If there are no error codes there is nothing they can do about it, because there is nothing that they can fix, according to their procedures. (And in this case, I have some understanding of Honda's position - you can't simply spend time and money on every complaint about gas mileage that comes along; there are too many other variables, mostly driver related. If there aren't any error codes, what are they supposed to fix?) Now, this does not excuse them from recognizing that a problem exists, but I can't blame the dealers for not being able to address this issue. The dealers are probably our best way to get the message through to Honda corporate, so we need to find a way for them to help us.
Let's assume you drive a certain distance (D). The gallons required to drive this distance is calculated from the hybrid's mileage (H). So, gallons = D/H. The gallons required to drive the same distance in a regular car depends on the regular car's mileage (R), and = D/R.
The cost to drive this distance is the number of gallons times the price per gallon (P) and = DP/H and DP/R for the hybrid and regular cars, respectively.
So, let's assume your hybrid gets 45 mpg (no screams about upgrade mileage please, let's use the optimistic numbers), and a regular car gets 30 mpg.
So, to drive 1000 miles using gas at $4/gal:
Hybrid: 22.2 gal, $88.89
Regular: 33.3 gal, $133.33
Savings: 11.1 gal, $44.44
Under these conditions, after about 56,000 miles, you have saved enough to cover the cost of a new battery (at a replacement cost of $2500), which means you have still saved money, even if you have to replace the battery at 81,000 miles. However, with gas at $3/gal, the break even point is at 75,000, which means it's a wash.
Note that these calculations do not factor in the increased cost of the vehicle ($5000 est.), in which case the numbers blow up. Break even happens at 75,000 only if gas goes to $9/gal, or you are comparing against a 21 mpg SUV.
So, the bottom line is - driving a hybrid will reduce your gas consumption, which is a good thing for many reasons. However, it is not something you should do for economic reasons.
We have the 2009 hybrid, and the replacement battery went out at about 14,000 miles of use, almost exactly a year from when it was installed. I am assuming this is "second generation" but I have not followed the development cycle that closely. Either way, I am not impressed with this generation, whichever one it is.
Too bad; it's a nice car otherwise.
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2. MB, I cannot beleive you have a 2009 that has had 2 battery replacements so far. Honestly, if I were you, I would ask for a gas only car. The stress of having to bring your car into the dearlership every year to two years for a battery relacement just doesn't make sense.
3. gregr2, where are you from? I'm having these problems in new england.
At this point opening a case with Honda's customer service department. My car is not performing as it did when it was new and I will not put my wife in a cat that I don't feel is safe when it loses battery assist at the worst possible time.
I am going to investigate the NHTSB website to look into the safety angle. Don't forget, three repeat repairs or 30 days out of service qualify for lemon law.
There are also concerns with the power steering and rear control arms.
I have the following observations:
1) The Honda mileage readout is ALWAYS worse than what I actually get using the gallons and odometer calcuation. With the "hard" tires, this can be as much as 5mpg, with the Yokohamas this is usually 1 to 3
2) I get 50mpg at 55mpg, 45 mpg at 65mph and about 41 at 75. I usually drive around 73. This is not surprising. E=1/2MVsquared
3) My route takes me up and down three major hills, one of which ALWAYS completely drains the IMA battery (but it gets charged up on the way down. This is how it's supposed to work!). So you figure a minimum of 3 complete cycles per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year and you have 2250 complete charge drain cycles minimum.
4) Recently the car sat for a week in pretty cold (for Cali) weather, 40s or so. When I first got in it the battery read full, then immediately dropped to 2 or 3 bars. I put the car into S (a trick to make the car more aggressively charge the battery) and the IMA light came on, along with the check engine light. I continued to drive and after one commute cycle, the IMA light was off but the check engine light was on. After another day, the check engine light went off too... Thus, I believe that my battery is beginning to show some age. However, driving it daily has resulted in pretty good results. Still getting 43mpg or so...
The car is 3 years old and I have 115K miles.
5) I have been getting "random" power steering failures since the car was new. Quite infrequent in general, a bit more frequent in the winter. I simply stop the engine and restart it... Works almost 100% of the time on the second try.
6) Overall I'd give the car a B+ on performance and B- on "problems."
:surprise:
Now, 7,000 miles later, the IMA light came on again. I just took my HCH to the dealer yesterday. No news yet, but I suspect the IMA will need to be replaced again.
So, after less than 13,000 miles the IMA (the thing that makes it a hybrid) fails twice. One interesting note... the service tech that was checking me in yesterday said there was a recall notice on the IMA. He couldn't see when the notice was issued though. I'll post more information when I hear back from the service tech. Also, I wanted to point out that my first failure (when the light actually came on) was in moderate weather conditions (Spring in Georgia). This last failure came in Winter. I'm not sure that weather has anything to do with my particular IMA failure.
When Honda first adjusted my HCH, after I complained that the IMA failure indicator lit up and poor gas mileage, I thought they just reset the light. The IMA failure light went out and mostly stayed out. The only time it briefly went back on, was when the battery was so dead, that it wouldn't start the car. Then, it went back out again. Now, I know they uploaded software to the onboard computer, to make the car put much less demand on the hybrid battery. The mileage, with the new battery, is identical to the mileage with the dead battery.
I asked if this was a recall issue and they told me no. Please advise if there are any recalls on the 2009 IMA Hybrid. The Fail Code was P07AF if anyone can tell me if this is something to worry about, please let me know.
I took delivery of my 2006 HCH in January 2006 in Kansas City. We have four seasons here, but typical temperature does not fall below 0 or exceed 100 often. Put 80K miles on the car in 38 months, and I was pretty happy with it. Mileage dropped in cold weather, but still got 35-37 MPG, somewhat better in moderate temperature weather (50s to 70s).
Just before 80K miles (slightly over three years), I took it into the dealer with a battery problem. They told me it was the front battery, claiming it had been discharged due to leaving an internal light on. I raised the question of whether there was a problem with the IMA system, and was told there wasn't. (After reading these posts, I've come to doubt that claim, but at least I got it in before the 80K warranty expired.) A good battery charge and clearing the code got me back on the road.
My son took it to college, where he didn't drive it much. This winter, during a cold snap, the front battery went bad. That caused the IMA system not to work properly. As others have described, severe loss of power, lack of recharging, etc.
My usual sources for batteries for my other cars--Wal-Mart, Sears, NTB--wouldn't touch the front battery. The only explanation I got was that they feared replacing the front battery would cause computer problems, so I had to take it to the dealer.
The dealer replaced the front battery for $105. It also applied some software "updates" to fix the problems allegedly caused by the front battery going bad, and cleared all of the codes that were recorded on the computer. They didn't charge for these other services, perhaps because I told them about all these postings I was reading and wondered aloud if Honda has a serious battery problem it's not disclosing. The service rep. said that the new battery was a 100 month Honda battery more powerful than the 36 month Honda battery that had gone bad at 48 months.
Son took the car back to college last week, but got only 30-31 mpg post-software updates. So I'm concerned that the main function of the upgrades was to reduce the strain on the electric portion of the drive system. Consistent with what others report, now it seems to be an underpowered Civic (due to those heavy batteries under the back seat) that cost $4k more than a Civic EX and $5K more than an LX Yet a few minutes ago I heard a Honda commercial extolling the great mileage of a new Civic Hybrid.
I suspect the speculation on these postings is correct. In taking discovery against some companies, you find internal e-mails or memos recognizing problems and trying to figure out how to cover them up and/or avoid dealing with the problem. If there is internal recognition of the problem, then you look to see what the company has told dealers to tell customers, and what advertising it uses for the product.
Chances are the problems aren't disclosed, because if they were sales would drop and probably not recover. Unsuspecting folks who buy the product not knowing of the problem are likely to be upset when they encounter the problem, and may feel mislead.
Typically I keep my cars until they wear out, but now I'm concerned I should trade the car in. (Better to sell it back to the dealer than to defraud some unsuspecting member of the public who just wants reliable transportation.) I wonder what the trade-in or resale value of the car is, with these problems surfacing. Has anyone tried a trade-in and gotten burned?
Specifically, what is the trade in value of a HCH as compared to a Civic LX with comparable mileage? One might suspect it's lower, since the dealer probably knows about these problems and might have trouble reselling it. So not only did I pay $5K more than an LX, the resale value might be lower too. That's why you read people's questions about class actions.
Lesson: Don't let the front battery die completely. Get it changed before it discharges completely, and maybe you won't need the software upgrades. Keep the car in a heated garage if you can to avoid the strain on the battery.
And present your story here so that we can document whether Honda will step up to the plate for its loyal customers. Good luck.
Vehicle software updates and patches are a one way street.
Codes can somtime be erased by disconnecting the battery but using a scan tool is much more effective. Any time codes are erased the OBDII monitors will be reset and the vehicle might drive a little different for a short time.
All these "updates" do not address the fact that our vehicles are not meeting the expectations of the hybrid vehicle that we were so excited about when we first purchased our cars.
Any ideas about what I might do? Don't care if the IMA works, just want to drive the car and pass inspection.
My questions were:
1. How much does the IMA battery deterioration effect the front battery?
2. We have looked at the hybrid battery repair online out of NY. Has anyone got their battery rebuilt from a refurbishing company? Is it worth the cost?
3. While obviously replacing the front battery, would it be wiser to repair the IMA first or the cataytic converter if only one was an option because of cost?
4. How much damage would it be to wait until the IMA deteriorates to get it refurbished rather than now?
1. In perfect condition, the resale value of your 2003 HCH is about $6000, at best.
2. Replacing the IMA battery will cost $3000, with a new battery, with an 80k miles warranty
3. Depending on the catalytic converter, it can cost $1500(front converter) or $1000(rear converter). The good one will go bad shortly after the other, so you must eventually replace both.
4. The O2 sensors will go shortly after the converters($1000 repair).
5. The front 12 volt battery is not affected by the IMA, except that the IMA charges the front 12v battery, but will not damage it. Replacing the 12v battery is the same as in any other vehicle, and can be done yourself for the cost of a battery. The IMA disables charging of the 12v battery at engine rpms over 4000, and heavy engine load, so running for very long times under these conditions(over 75mph) will eventually cause the 12v battery to totally discharge. The red battery symbol on the dash tells when the 12v battery isn't charging.
6. The software 'updates' will eventually cause your mileage to approach that of a normal, non-hybrid Civic, because they are designed to put less strain on the IMA battery.
I have discovered all of this by first hand experience, the dealer will try to get you to pay to do all of the repairs. I am running my HCH without the IMA, which is almost the same as with the IMA with the software 'updates'. The only problem I have is that the check engine light is on, and the car will not pass emmissions inspection that way in my state. I am working on a way to fool the IMA system into thinking the IMA battery is OK, and not turn on the IMA light, or the check engine light.
> How much damage would it be to wait until the IMA deteriorates to get it refurbished rather than now?
That really depends on what the problem is. If you are getting assist and regen, then it will cause further deterioration of the battery and increase the number of cells that have to be replaced. if you are not getting any assist because the car is bypassing the IMA system, then it won't matter.
Above 3500 the IMA cuts out charging the 12V battery. If the hybrid battery is good, it won't matter, but if the IMA system is not performing, your battery light will illuminate and it will stress the 12V battery. Drive more gently and you won't pass 3500 rpm.
You will find a number of people over on Insightcentral who've had their batteries repaired and can relate their experience. The Insight community is smaller than the Civic's and they tend to be fanatical about their cars and go to greater lengths to preserve and modify their vehicles.
The cheapest solution is to buy a junkyard battery, put it in, pass emissions, and then take it out and put it away for a year. the junkyard pack will work fine for a short period - enough to cover 2-3 days per year of use for a decade or more.
Or you could just fix it.
I can't explain why some people seem to be having a problem after the update but others do not. There is obviously another factor here that we are missing.
Were there any other notes on your service invoice? Were any other procedures performed? Ours included a "clutch learn" item, that the tech said reset the IMA settings. Wonder if that is related to any of this?
That means that the battery is degraded to the point that it is running below 10% of its' original capacity. Basically, it's shot.
>I'm not the best hybrid driver, but before going in my MPG readout said 39.6. Four
>days later it's reading 40.7! I haven't changed my driving style, so it seems, for now,
>that things are actually getting better.
The car was devoting 5mpg or so toward charging your old battery (constantly). Your new battery does not need this, so you are seeing a boost. What was your mileage when you first got the car? It should be a little lower now because of winter gas.
So I'm in this predicament. Do I get the updates and hope the error still comes up? If I do need to replace the battery, I'm afraid that the updates will "mask" it and not report the error and I'm left with more problems.
As I stated before, I am amazed that this problem with these vehicles has been kept relatively quiet. Honda continues to sell these vehicles as fast as they can get them on the lot.
>miles on it! How in the world could the battery be shot!!!
Seriously, how often do you drive your car that it only had 11,000 miles on it? The #1 killer of batteries is leaving the car to sit for weeks at a time. A single 90 day event is enough to guarantee a failure within one year. This is not a fault of Honda, but a simple fact of physics based on the design of the car. I see lots of 2003 HCHs with 160,000 or more miles before a failure and there are no fundamental differences between the gen 1 (2003-2005) and gen 2 (2006+) packs. These people, however, drove their cars 20K miles or more per year. I've also gotten in a couple of 100K packs from 2006 and one 2006 with only 30K miles, but it was a salvage vehicle and sat parked for six months as it was repaired.
>They did not tell me that if the IMA light came back on that I could get a new
>battery.
For the duration of your 8/80,000 mile warranty, if your IMA light illuminates and the error codes report a battery problem, it will be replaced for free, as many times as necessary. That warranty expires at the 80,000 mile mark even if the battery went in the day before.
After the warranty period, if you pay for a battery, it comes with a 3 year warranty (on just the battery).
From the 2000-2006 Insights and the 2003-2005 Civics, I have seen enough batteries to state that most last about 7 years (no matter what the mileage is), provided the car is a daily driver. I don't have enough information about the 2006+ models, but I know enough about the batteries to know that the changes are minor (10% more cells, more compact package, some sensors eliminated, etc). Insight owners are unhappy with the latest software also, as it makes it harder to hypermile.
>Was the software upgrade a temporary fix.
I wouldn't call it a fix, I'd call it a re-tuning of the BMS (Battery Managment System). It may help tremendously with your usage patterns - or not. It is not temporary. This is how the car will behave from now on, unless the software is updated again.
>Would I be smart to trade it in whlle it is still getting 41.4 miles to the gallon?
And get what? A 30mpg car? You've already taken the depreciation hit. Over those 11,000 miles, you are talking an MPG difference of what, 50 gallons? So how big a hit will you take? $150?
You've got 4-7 years left on your warranty depending on the year of your car. It's unlikely that you'll drive more than 10,000 miles per year, so the warranty will keep you up and running for some time to come (enough time for any replacement vehicle to have gone from new car to old car). Catalytic converters are covered by federal 8/80 warranties, and the car isn't known for being overly unreliable (quite the contrary). So why switch?
Is it that simple? My light came on with the P0A7F error code reported. Honda requires you to update the softwares first. They won't replace the battery until the error code returns. The dealer tells me this is the process that hs to be followed.
How does a software fix a battery?
Just like many others, at 6500 miles the IMA light came on, went away, then came on a couple more times. I started reading these boards and decided there was no way I was going to get the 'update' until I had to (assuming I needed it - some 09's apparently already have it).
Well, the driver's side window malfunctioned and I decided that, since the window needed fixing, I'd just go ahead and see what happens with the update - I'm not going to sell it with the light on and I'll need it gone to pass emissions - I've read posts on how to fool emissions, but eh.
So I got the update on 1/30/09 and noticed that the mpg dropped to 36 driving around the side streets. I had *always* gotten around 43 prior to that. I keep a log at each fill-up.
So, I started getting worried b/c it's happening... The same thing everyone else is posting about is happening. BUT today on a roundtrip to work and back (40 miles total) on the freeway I get 48 mpg! That's never happened.
I've noticed that the car is acting much differently. It has a lot more power as it's warming up and the battery gauge is all over the place. It's full one moment and then empty the next w/o even driving very hard. It acts this way until it warms up and reaches some level of steady-state. Also, while driving on side streets it seems like it is depending more on the gas engine than before.
It will take time to verify, but I think this 'update' makes it perform less well on side streets and better on freeways. That might explain why some people have a good experience with the update and others do not.
Oh, and the window - They wouldn't fix it on the first trip and only lubricated the guide channel for a short-term fix. On the second visit they will replace the regulator for a real fix. I don't have time for this.