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Now I found the Subie VDC to be the least intrusive, but that also means the least active. I feel very comfortable with the level of traction and stability control it offers. I hated the Toyo at the other end of the spectrum it still slid, but the VDC set off an annoying audible alarm and you could feel power being cut and coming back on and there was even kickback at the wheel. What I disliked about that was the fact I couldn't tell what it was doing to make my own adjustments and actually felt like I was fighting the vehicle. That being said, the Toyo was the hardest to slide. I've been driving RWD, 4WD and AWD vehicles without VDC for over 25 winters so I much prefer the Subie, but for my Nanny driving the kids in icy conditions, I'd prefer the Toyota. I'd put the Honda in between the other two.
For most situations, I'll bet that folks coming from FWD vehicles just need to be more gentle with the throttle. The FWD doesn't punish too much acceleration, but AWD vehicles will. With all 4 wheels gripping, you can be more conservative with the throttle and still get moving. Just wait until most of the turn is completed before getting on the gas heavily.
I haven't notice the wheel well buildup like some others have, but it was only about 15 degrees when the snow fell which makes it a lot less sticky.
Can anyone confirm this, or point me toward a reference -- I find it interesting.
Thanks,
Bill
It briefly mentions this in the owners manual as a "driving tip" but its not very detailed. In the 09' owners manual on 7-19 under "Driving Tips" its says:
"On a road surface where there is a risk of wheel spin (for example, a snow- or gravel covered road), you can pull away from a stand still (safely and easily) by first selecting the 2nd gear of the manual mode. "
It has been discussed on Subaru forums all over the web and other sites, here are a few i found:
http://web.torek.net/torek/car/forester-mtat.html
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/awd-basic-description-operation-4352- 8/
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/if-its-awd-then-why-only-one-wheel-s- pinning-45111/
My salesman, who attends all the classes Subaru provides, assures me that the only time the 90/10 changes is when there is slippage or when accelerating beyond a certain tip-in point with the throttle, no matter what gear you are in.
I do not know if Subaru changed anything in the AWD system for 2009. But I've not seen any front wheel slip or other characteristics suggesting 90% of the power is normally going up there.
Then again, only Subaru engineers know for sure
Still seems to be some disagreement as per the post after yours.
In any case, its seems starting out in "2" is best way to go on very slippery surfaces, and with VDC off if much spinning is expected.
Thanks,
p.s. still waiting for a good snow to try mine out here in West Virginia.
Bill
The 50/50 power transfer in 1st and 2nd gear i've seen mentioned on numerous sites online. I still haven't tested it out myself. We're supposed to get 8-12" of snow by tonight! So i'll try to test this out for myself. I have dedicated winter tires also. First time i get to try the subaru in the snow :shades:
I could be losing my mind, but I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the duty-cycle of the solenoid in the transfer case cannot send more than 50% of the power to the rear (auto). I thought this info was in that same document but it wasn't. I will have to look through the ton of documents I have been collecting on Subaru since 2001. The manual gets adjusted by the shear of the fluid in the viscous coupling, no electronics.
I specifically asked my salesman about the 09 and he said he asked that question at the class, and they told him that they didn't change anything, it works exactly like the previous years. He and I were both hoping for the default 90/10 to go to 45/55.
We are getting snow now here in SE Mass. I remember the first snow with my first Forester back in 2001, so I understand your anticipation. I loved it then and still do. Neither my wife or I have ever used anything other than the usual all-season tires that come with the Foresters, except when my wife wore out her Geos and bought Michelins, and neither of us have ever had a problem. Good ground clearance and a good AWD system are hard to beat. Some of our friends get sick of us raving about the winter capability, except those that have also gone and bought Subarus, now they rave too.
Have fun, and stay safe!
It's pretty nasty out there. I saw a plow truck do almost a 180° going around a turn. The Forester was great! Only time it would break loose was when i would purposely push it and take sharp turns, but even then it quickly gained traction and it was very predictable. It also stopped well, only time the ABS kicked in was when i would hit the brakes hard, the ABS would come on briefly and the car would come to a stop quickly. Even going downhill i could stop with no problem. Driving normal the forester was solid and wouldn't lose traction. I tried both D and gears 1 and 2 in manual mode, and when i did a couple quick starts from a stop, i could feel the forester break loose, but AWD was quick to work and gained traction. In gear 1, when i did a quick start there was no loss of traction....I called it quits cause it's rush hour and too many cars sliding around out there! I'll go to an empty parking lot later on and do some more test between D and manual mode.
She said the highway hadn't been touched yet and there were cars stuck on inclines, some off the road, and some spinning out. She just drove around all that stuff without any problems. That is what we have come to expect with our Foresters. It would make a great commercial.
It is kind of cool on those occasions when you feel the front wheels start to slip a little, and you can feel the power shift to the rear and almost shoot you forward as if someone hit you in the rear.
I am sure your winter tires give you an advantage, but I have to tell you, neither of us have ever said we wished we had different tires on the vehicles. Even my 2 bottom-of-the-line Foresters with the cheap Bridgestones were never a problem. My Premium and her Bean have the Geos with the LSD and that is a help.
Are you north, and getting the light fluffy stuff? We rarely get that, too bad.
The winter tires are great, i have to admit. They do give you an advantage that's for sure.
Nissan had to specially engineer their GT-R's LSD to eliminate trailing throttle oversteer. That feature's not in the simpler LSD's Subaru used in Forester, and continues to use in Legacy/Outback.
So far my '09 XT's been good in the snow, except if I decide to jam on the throttle (which swings the tail out), or hit a wet icy patch too fast (tires loose grip and it slides).
I don't know how the stock XT Geolanders compare to Nokians, though - I ditched the Geolanders before the storms hit Oregon.
Bill
Good: No traction problems; XT, now christened "White Fang", just went where I pointed it. Wheels occasionally grumbled looking for traction, but no prolonged wheel spins or loss of power. ABS kicked in occasionally when braking. Rear window defogger and mirror defoggers worked fine. Front side windows stayed free of ice buildup once heater was at full temperature.
Bad: Snow tends to build up and freeze at the top of the windshield, interfering with wiper action. Every so often I had to stop and scrape it off, or try running defroster at maximum heat to minimize buildup. Snow also pours off back of car onto rear window: rear wiper gets rid of most of it, but occasionally that needs to be cleared too.
We encountered quite a combination of snow (both dry and heavy/wet, with acumulations up to 9"), wind, cold (mid 20's F), freezing rain, etc. As my '09 Forester is my first Subaru, I wasn't sure what to expect. I was NOT disapointed! I don't know if it is the AWD system, the vehicle weight, ground clearance, or other factors (or a combination of?) but what people say is true....the Forester is a snow machine! I had no issues with traction or control or slideouts, etc. The Forester easily outperformed AWD vehicles I've previously owned (XL-7, Sante Fe, Murano).
[FYI - my Forester is manual xmission version].
I only managed to get the VDC to kick in once, going thru a section of super deep packed snow left by a snowplow. The sensation was a bit weird (could feel braking and throttling down occurring without my inputs), but seeing the VDC light flashing told me to just let it do it's thing...and we got thru it no problem.
The only negative I encountered (which was posted by someone else already) is that there is significant ice buildup on the wiper blades at hiway speeds. I had to run full defrost at high fan speed [and I've previously b**tched about how noisy the fan is!]. Then I had to crack open the rear windows to cool down the overheated interior!
So - my recommendation to those evaluating the Forester's capabilities in inclement weather is to consider it a superior vehicle - probably the best in it's class. But definitely get the All Weather Package option (with heated seats and windshield wiper heating).
Happy Holidays to All!
I see that everyone is commenting on how their new Forrester is doing in the snow, so I will report what I can. I purchased a 09 premium, with auto trans, and all weather package. This was at the end of July. This is my first Subaru, and my first vehicle with all wheel drive. I live in Omaha, NE. We are a very hilly city but have no major mountains or anything like that.
My first time driving in marginal conditions was two weeks ago when I went to Iowa City to see my new grandson. I had 200 miles of rain/sleet/snow on the way back. My eye was glued to the thermometer in the dash display the whole time back. If it got to 33-32 degrees I was going to slow down. I was also gaging oncoming traffic
to see if it was slowing. Speeds were between 60-70 mph. At no time did I ever feel out of control, or even feel a slip. I was amazed.
This last week we had 1/2' of rain/sleet/ice with about 3" of snow on top of it. I have been having a blast going up hills. Some I even stop half way up them, than start up again just to see if I can.
I am really amazed at this car. Like others I have noticed that the top of the windshield collects ice, and inter fears with the wiper action. I just had remote start put on it and this morning at -1 degree I let it warm up for about 10 minutes. If these Geo lander tires are considered bad, I cant understand why.
Anyway, I am really impressed with the car.
Today it was sleeting and snowing - 24 to 26 degrees F. Snow was 4 - 6" on side roads, less so on main. White Fang ('09 XT) did fine, including starting up from dead stop into 4 - 6" unplowed snow, on a small hill yet.
My workaround for upper windshield ice is to spray a little Prestone "ice melt" on the top of the windshield. That and the defroster seem to keep it at bay.
Still we had some real idiots out there today; yahoo pickup trucks trying for 40 mph, etc.
Also saw for first time an '09 XT other than mine; a Red one, covered with snow, and on stock Geolanders. It was doing ok in the same snow as mine.
The Nokians I have are guaranteed for 50K miles, but when their tread gets to 6 - 8 mm, it's probably time to replace them.
I remember one of my earlier Foresters that I had put a few bags of bird seed in the hatch, right against the rear seat-back. They were 35 pound bags. I noticed a difference for the better in the snow performance almost right away. The vehicle felt more balanced and capable. I actually left them in the back for a while until I needed to use them.
I am talking small differences here because the car is pretty well balanced and capable right out of the box, but it was noticeable. Of our 5 Foresters 2 had no LSD, and frankly, I don't see a noticeable difference. I am sure it is better to have than not have, and under the right conditions would be a bonus. I saw much more difference with the weight of the bird seed.
I have not been dissatisfied with any of the ones we have had with the auto, and in fact moved to my current 06 Premium for the power seat, moonroof, and the AWP which was standard then. I moved away from the 5-speed because I have size 13W feet, and I kept hitting the gas and the brake at the same time. I am 6'3" and I find the power seat gives a little more leg room.
As has been noted elsewhere, the wheelguards/mudflaps are like big scoops. They collect the packed snow and don't let it go. You can't just kick these things like I have on other cars to clear the snowpack; too flimsy. I've got a feeling these won't last two winters.
Also, decided to crank the heat this afternoon (about 10 degrees out) and found the Forester to produce some serious BTUs. Never felt such hot air pouring out of car vents before. Don't know what purpose this serves, but it is notable.
I have never taken an extended warranty on anything, so it is a roll the dice situation. With our Subarus we generally sell them to someone before the 5 years is up, and buy another. No one that has bought any of ours has had a problem with anything, so the odds seem pretty good.
Yes, it get downright hot inside the Forester with the heat full up, even in 20 degree weather. The engine also starts producing usable heat within a few minutes of start-up.
Wrt loosing some snow grip as tires age, my guess is by 30K the sipes are mostly worn off the tires, and the rubber (either by aging or being worn down) had become harder. That would improve the summer grip, but hurt winter performance.
That's what everything I have read about tires suggested.
My 09 Forester suffers from the door rattles that I have seen posted earlier. My problem is, this morning the damned thing was quiet as a church mouse - the car is scheduled to go in for service tomorrow to address the rattles.
This will be the second time the car goes in for the door rattles (they couldn't find them the first time). It seems hit or miss, but when the doors rattle they really do rattle quite a bit.
Any advice? I'd hate to send it back for them not to find anything again, and I'm really stumped as to why this morning there are no rattles. Its so cold out here in NE PA (11 degrees this AM) that I thought for sure I'd get MORE rattles ..... *shrug* ????
Thanks in advance,
Jopopsy
I've been seeing them reappear in my XT front doors after the fix, but now only if it's around 25 and the engine is idling when cold.
The dealer improved them the first time, but may have to revisit the fix, which involves adding insulation between the door metal and plastic.
you may have to leave the car overnight to let it get good and cold. Then when it's started up, hopefully the rattles will appear.
Today the XT met its match. Driving along around 20 mph, I needed to change lanes and waited until there was a good space between me and other vehicles.
However, White Fang's (the XT's) wheels, when turned, attempted to climb the 4" deep icy ruts, failed to get traction, and let the vehicle lurch back into the ruts.
Using more gas the next time I tried this, the XT simply lurched out of the ruts, lost all grip and spun 180 degrees to face traffic coming towards me. Fortunately they were quite a ways back and going slow, giving me time to back up 180 degrees and turn back to going the right direction. If they had been closer or going faster, I could have been broadsided. :surprise:
This was the first demonstration of the Nokian's main weakness: they did not handle wet ice all that well when turning. It may be a particular part of the tire that is susceptible to this (the outer edges, perhaps).
Anyway, I'm off the roads until they plow that mess or I can get to a place to buy cable chains (not sure the Auto Socks will be up to that sort of thing either, as they do not cover the sides of the tires, only the lower tread). Right now cable chains are a precious commodity in Portland - stores are virtually sold out of them.
.
Going down side-streets, I always stay out of the ruts. It's more fun, anyway, to blaze a new trail beside the ruts.
That being said, I do like everything else about the car.
In my 50 years of driving I have had 6 or seven 4WD/AWD vehicles, and have gotten every one of them stuck -- but, in some "very clever" ways!!
In fact, I have been stuck more times in AWD than in 2WD vehicles -- the extra traction can cause overconfidence.
Still not enough snow, here, to try out my 09 Forester, my first Subaru -- I bet I can get it stuck!
Just kidding -- I hope I have enough sense to be over cautious.
Bill
Damned rattles. My 05 was as solid as they come.
I've gotten 4WD vehicles stuck several times, but always so badly that it required a winch and/or tow vehicle to pull it out.
The 4WD vehicles I've owned have never gotten stuck where the 2WD vehicles would have ... but I also would never have driven the 2WD vehicles where I was driving the 4WD vehicles.
4WD can be a lot of fun.
I'll make sure to get a feel for these OE tires before I do much with it.
My 98 (5MT) was great in the snow, especially with snow tires. With all seasons I could break traction but still control it well - it would wag the tail but always seemed to pull itself out of the slide. Quite fun, to be honest.
Our 09 is an auto so I'll report back any difference I note.
As for test drive variance, I bet tire pressure is also a big issue. Dealers usually do not air down until delivery.
265hp Forester? I doubt it. Keep in mind the WRX only gets that engine with the manual tranny, and the Forester XT is auto only.
Warranty? I had a Subaru Gold on the 2002 Legacy, and it helped me sell the car, plus we got roadside assistance for the full 7 years. I'd say it was worth it. We only had some minor issues that the warranty addressed, but it was a *major* selling point for the used car. I think we got a lot of the cost back, plus piece of mind because the seller can go to Subaru if they have a problem - I'm off the hook.
The '09 XT I drive, christened White Fang, does not particularly care for wet ice. Although it has never gotten stuck (it promptly gets going and stops no matter what), it does not like driving along in rutted ice, which either make it hard to turn or provokes tail swing-outs when Fang finally lurches out of the ruts. Fortunately none of the swing-outs have been anything like earlier this week when Fang swapped ends, but I have learned to let up on power the minute I sense the tail breaking loose, at which point Fang falls back into line relatively quickly.
By comparison, on snow, or sheet (not rutted) ice, Fang just goes and stops with little complaint.
This is definitely not a front-biased car in winter weather, and I dread to think what driving a real tail-happy vehicle would be like, or if I were on the original Geolander tires.
Also regarding map lights: Myself and some others in the forum were concerned that you can't load up your car when traveling and leave doors open etc. without having the lights on all the time. I was concerned that I could discharge my battery...at least during the summer camping months.
So, I went to the dealer and they disconnected a wire to allow the map light to shut off. (It only took them a couple of minutes.) It is now only on when you hit the button. But, in the winter, that wasn't good either. Until...I found I could put the middle dome light switch into a certain position and it behaved like the front map light had. Same dimming features, turning off when the key is turned in the ignition, etc.
Optimum would be to have a switch, which I still think I may ask the dealer to put in, or to show me which wires so I can put in the switch myself. But, at least for now, I get some light when I need it and I don't have to worry about battery power come camping season. :shades:
Regarding the snow & my car; we haven't had much more around here. I only had the VDC light come on once, and just for a couple seconds. Subie did get up and go great on the highway in a snowstorm. It went so well that I was mainly the only one in the passing lane, going at a reasonable speed, while most others were in a long line in the right lane going 20-30mph. The Subie just kept on going with no troubles, not even a hiccup. I haven't had any emergency stops yet.
So, so far my only issue with the snow is the rear sliding out when cornering. Typically from a stop. I guess I haven't cornered enough while driving in the snow...or perhaps it only occurs, as someone previously suggested, while accelerating.
Either way, I don't think it is worth the expense of changing out all 4 tires...at least not yet. I think I need to get more up in the mountains to do some additional testing in deeper snow! :shades:
When it snows it stays parked, period. Usually my wife can stay home on snow days so I take the Forester.
We're still thoroughly enjoying the seat heaters. :shades:
I want them on my next Miata, hopefully a PRHT.
Per sgloon's feedback, looks like two of us have tail-happy '09 Foresters. Is this typical of Foresters in winter, or is this something new for '09 (the transmission was supposedly tweaked for this year) ? I had expected more FWD-oriented behavior. In any event, I'll be careful if we get snow-buried again.
I did see the VDC light come on but only when I got devious and stopped the XT so one side was on bare road and the other on ice/snow. The XT got going with little drama but the VDC light would come on if I accelerated vigorously (not ridiculously/flooring, though).
In general, XT / WhiteFang , other than one icy rut spinout (mostly because I accidently pushed the XT too hard once it did get out of the ruts), did very well.
Does heavy VDC use somehow cause the car to vibrate? Don't think that it was ice build up as everything looked ok. Did rebooting the engine clear a sensor error or something?