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Comments
The dealer went so far as to get a car from another dealer AND register it with the state AND you had not finished negotiating the sale terms ???
Obviously the dealer had a signed contract with a negotiated price on it.
I would never let a dealer go and get a car from another dealer w/o a signed contract for the price I wanted.
I am surprised the dealer was able to register the car.
Here in Florida there are numerous forms the buyer has to sign to get the car registered and titled.
Is this the first car you ever bought ???
Have they let you out of the deal ???
Yeah the signed contract was for $479 a month with 3500.....all of a sudden when I go there to pickup the car with the plates and insurance sitting on the finance managers desk....he's putting info into the computer and they guy looks at me and says payments are $525 a month?? we had to put you on a different tier?
I stormed out of that place...called my insurance co and cancelled the insurance. I wonder if I'll get my $100 back.
Yes, first time buying new...have negotiated many previous loans in the past on used in dealerships.
1- Check out the sticker price of course
2- Ask the dealer to give you the residual value of the car at the end of the lease. (this is how much the car will be worth at the end of the lease, usually about 55 to 60% of sticker for a Japanese car 36 to 39 month lease).
3-Subtract 2 from 1 and divide by the term of the lease, this will give you the base monthly payments.
4- Ask for the tax amount, tags, and dealer acquisition fees if any (usually the acquisition fees are like 395 to 500), there usually is a lease termination fee and a security deposit if you are a first time customer.
5- Add up all taxes and fees and also divide by term of lease and you will get your monthly payment.
5- Now you negotiate the discount off the sticker price, reduction of fees and target the .012 to .015 monthly payment based on actual full sticker.
BEWARE of any hidden fees and nonsense from salesmen, they are ALL charlatans and live off of the lies they tell their customers. Do not hesitate to walk right out of a dealer if something does not seem right, always buy late at night and towards the last day of the month (just hints). If I were you I would file a complaint with Nissan Customer Service because that dealer took your 100.00 bucks. Always be prepared to go to more than one dealer and find your best price. If not go to leasing.com and let a professional service work the deal for you for a minimal fee, they will find the car you want and have it brought to your dealer of choice. Good luck.
Are you using high octane fuel? that may help, also change the brand of the gas and try out different ones. Run the car hard and blow out some deposits that may be affecting engine breathing and/or fuel flow. Again good luck, I hope it is in a nice color so that at least it looks good in your garage or driveway...
Yeah I'm giving them 2 weeks to send my money by mail then after that I'm filing a complaint with nissan.
How would I go about doing this? I've searched online and found nothing...anyone have a link?
For the guy with the $35000 planter, I would file a complaint with the better business bureau against that dealership!
What octane/brand of gas are you using?
Also on this blog, there are a few praising comments about the Acura TL and how wonderful it is and better than the Maxima, I already wrote that the two cars are not fairly compared. So I googled images of the 2009 Acura TL and guess what? the body style and rear end are similar to the outgoing Maxima design, now I am confused. Oh and look at the front end of the new TL, Acura obviously did not learn from the 04 Maxima woes, that is 1 ugly grille.
My dilema is that I don't dislike and actually like the outgoing body style of the Maxima and Acura is the one to offer the similar one, even has the strips over the roof line and buttress-like C-pillar. Add to that the controversial front grill and side window design and I think I can get a body style that similarly resembles the outgoing Maxima.
And the other question is, what is Acura doing? It is a passe Maxima design, the Avalon also resembles it but I am sure Toyota is working on a new body style, and Acura is just now getting into it, wow what is the world of car design coming to? Acura as always, has a killer interior that far outdoes the outgoing and new Maxima in every way. maybe it is time to switch, you guys take a look and let me know if you see the resemblance that I see.
Thanks..
While the details vary by state, here's a common ruling:
New Motor Vehicles Warranties Act provides specifically that a defective car may qualify under the lemon law if: 1) the car was presented for repair four or more times for the same defect and the defect continues; OR 2) the car was out of service for warranty related repairs for a total of 20 or more days during any one year period of the warranty.
Even high end cars have a fair percentage of returns....when I was searching for a used 07 or 08 Lexus, I found over a dozen "lemon law" buy-backs from Lexus with most dealing with annoying rattles and shakes to the cars that the Lexus owners could not tolerate. So, Lexus bought the car back and it was being re-sold by a 3rd party.
Good luck and sorry to hear about your unfortunate luck with the car!
The residual value also changes with market fluctuations and things like that, it is the value of the vehicle at the end of whatever least term you agree on. At the end of a 36-39 month lease, the residual should be 50 to 55 % of the original price. Again, your dealer will be able to tell you what the residual value is, you may want to shop around to make sure no-1 is giving you bad numbers.
out4cat: You can categorize cars however you wish, but the TL and Maxima are comparable. The are both FWD and both in the same general price range. A $40k+ SH-AWD TL might stretch the comparison, but when Nissan decided to push $35k+ with the Maxima, they invited a lot of other comparisons than the Accord and Camry. Including, for that matter, the 328i. The fact that the Maxima might not stack up all that well against "premium" competition is another issue. But if they want to price it in that territory, the smart buyer will compare it to a lot more than a $20-25k Accord or Camry.
rkurlander: I am sorry for your experience, but while you have posted several times regarding your buyers remorse, you have also ignored several posts offering suggestions, including mine regarding a potentially faulty O2 sensor. I currently have a 1995 Maxima with a check engine light on that is driving just fine. I can turn the light off anytime I want by replacing a $150 O2 sensor.
cyberpunk: I failed to respond to your previous post questioning my comment that Nissan's CVT is less fuel efficient than other transmissions. I read a print article several months ago that compared the latest crop of smg, dsg, dual clutch smg's, 8-speed automatics and cvt's to the good old manual transmission. The "drive train efficiency" of the manual transmission is still the standard - anything that adds any more moving parts has some adverse affect although it is minimal with the best SMG's and DSG's. But the CVT was at the bottom of the list, worse than even the some oleder 4/5 speed slushbox automatics in the comparison. The CVT may feel smooth, but that comes at significant loss of energy. In effect, it has the most "slush" of any slushbox transmission. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the article and a Google search didn't locate it. Anecdotally, the Nissan CVT is a gas hog, as several posters above have noted and has been stated by my Nissan service manager. That can be the result of a lot of factors, including gear ratios, etc. But in ther article I read, which measured horsepower at the wheels vs the crankshaft, th eNissan CVT came in dead last.
My Altima coupe, I have gotten better then the EPA says I should, its rated at 33 on the freeway, I'm getting 32.7 (per the on board computer) but I drive at 80 MPH too. I'm sure if I slow down, I would get 2-3 MPG better.
The CVT is a tricky thing to drive, but once people understand how to drive it, it can get good MPG. I just wish you had the first hand knowledge of ownership of a Nissan with a CVT instead of reading something in a Mag... BTW, a ttest drive does not consititute ownership.
(1) 1995 Maxima 5-speed - rated 27; actual 28-30.
(2) 2002 Honda S2000 - rated 26; actual 30-32+
(3) 2004 TL 6-speed - rated 30; actual 30-31
(4) 2005 911S 6-speed - rated 25; actual 26-27+
(5) 2005 MDX - rated 23; actual 25.
So I'm not sure what your anecdotal evidence means. Nor what possible explanation would be for sub-par mileage for the first 10,000 miles?? Or what the secret is to understanding how to drive a CVT?
Personally, I don't give a hoot about 1-2 mpg one way or the other if the car/engine/transmssion performs well together. I was merely responding to some who have commented that the CVT is a tehnologically advanced transmission with performance / fuel efficiency advantages. To which I respond, bull. It's a smooth, cheap alternative to a old style slushbox automatic. Period. There appears to be more real world evidence that it is less fuel efficient than the other way around. But more to my point, it's NOT the type of transmission that even Infiniti, let alone Acura, BMW or Mercedes would put into something they dared call a four door sports car.
Honda - Accord, Civic, Pilot - No Acura RL rival
Acura - TL, TSX, MDX
And on the other side of the street
Nissan - Altima, Maxima - No Q35/45 rival
Infinity - G35, M35/45
And even on the other side of the street
Toyota - Camry, Avalon
Lexus - ES 350, GS 350/450 (outgoing Maxima even tried to imitate this car's body style).
Acura, and rightfully so, was not intending on going against the Maxima with their TL, no matter how much you try to say that they did in order to give you reasons to pick on the Maxima, it is fuzzy logic. The rivalry/compatibility is not solely based on FWD/RWD, horsepower, or sticker price, it is based on the vehicle's intended target market based on where it ranks among the entire lineup of each respective car company. The buyer can compare it to whatever they want to but each car has its target market Nissan vs Honda and Infinity vs Acura (apples to apples and oranges to oranges). One thing to consider is that Nisan did not give its Maxima all-wheel drive like the TL, that feature is for the Infinity G35 M35/45, your own "A $40k+ SH-AWD TL might stretch the comparison" backs up this non-fuzzy logic.
Just think Cadillac (FWD) still competes with Benz and BMW models (RWD), it is not about that. Cadillac XLR 80k 320 H.P still competes with Benz SL550 97K 382 H.P.
Using your way of thinking, the new Pontiac G8, 400 H.P. RWD would compete with the Benz SL 550, we all know that is not even comprehensible.
Don't worry, even with all your comments, I have still not begun to hate the TL, I think it is a nice car. Oh my god, using your way of thinking, who would the Porsche 911 compete with, it is rear engine, on yeah my bad the VW bug is rear engine too.
My 04 Max, 5 speed (non CVT), 265 H.P. would get me above 30 MPG at 75 M.P.H.
My 07 Max, 6 speed with CVT, 255 H.P., can't get me past 24 MPG at 70-75 M.P.H.
I guess I will have to wait to hit 10k miles and all of the sudden it will become efficient, I don't expect that to happen at all. Besides being awkward, it drains HP and gas mileage.
So if you look at the sticker on this vehicle, it shows "Auto-dimming Driver-side Outside Mirror," is Nissan for real, on a 37K plus Sport Package car only the driver-side has the auto dim in 09, my $32,803 non-Nav 07 SE has both outside mirrors with auto-dim feature, that is just not right...
I also noticed a picture of the car on the sticker with the steering wheel turned all the way to the left and the paddle shifter stayed in place at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions, is this right? you turn the wheel and the paddles stay put? Someone needs to clue Nissan in on the fact that it is all about the details when it comes to premium vehicles, something obviously not happening at Nissan.
The issue isn't what the Japanese car companies might have intended with the creation and marketing of their "premium" divisions. The issue is the reality of what reasonably intelligent consumers might consider and compare when actually shopping for a car. And if you have up to $35-$40k+/- to spend on a entry level luxury performance sedan, a hell of a lot of cars come into play. For some, FWD/RWD/AWD will be an important consideration. For others techno do-dads will take priority over driving dynamics or vice-versa. But to suggest anyone considering the Nissan Maxima shouldn't be comparing it to an Acura TL sounds like you've been brainwashed. I did that very comparison twice and in 1995 the Maxima SE 5-speed won and in 2004 the TL 6-speed won. So go ahead and hold up a blinder as you pass the BMW dealership, lest you be tempted by a 328i that is roughly the same price as a "non-Infiniti" Maxima. But rather than question my logic, perhaps you should reassess your own gullibility?
P.S. Regarding the 911's competition in 2005, there really wasn't anything, given my priorities at the time. Namely, serious sports car (not GT) that could serve as a family car with my daughters in the back seat. On the other hand, in 2002, when a two seater was acceptable, I had no hesitation about buying an S2000 instead of a Boxster, Z4 or SLK just because it happened to be called a Honda and not an Acura.
In "intelligent" car buying the first thing to decide is the money you want to spend...
Then you go out and look for best "perceived" value you can get for the Money.
This month I decided to spend ~40K to 42K on a vehicle... so I test drove following
2009 Maxima
2008 TL (2009 were not available to test drive)
2008 RL (Was/is selling for 40K here in SoCal)
2008 Audi A6 3.2 FWD
2008 BMW 528
2008 Lexus GS 350 (41K for base)
2008 Infiniti M35 (Can be had for < 40K )
2008 MB E350 (Base is selling for 41K in So cal)
Genesis
and 2008 Acura MDX
They all are very different cars...not in same class..but they share one thing...Price point & that makes them competitor
This is the reason why G8 & Genesis will not compete with S550 but Maxima will compete with TL..and too some extent with G35. There is lot more cross shopping going on.. Auto makers dont like it hence they try to differentiate the cars... One way to do it not offer features/warrenty/service etc in one brand/car
No AWD in MAX Vs G/M
Better warrenty for G/M
RWD in G/M (If you care)
Dealer experience for G/M
(I remember in Phoenix Midway Infiniti dealer coming to my office to pick up car for service, leave the loaner car. After work I go and pickup my car/drop off loaner car. All for $40.00 oil change...Totally worth it FOR ME)
So its all about percieved value for the Money.
MAX and TL are competitors they serve same market place.
Acura service/prestige is not significantly different then Nissan/Honda
Perception of Lexus/Infiniti is differnt then Toyota/Nissan
BTW..Nissan & Infiniti do not share cars..
Altima is NOT G35
Max is not M35 they are different animals
Acura seems to be looking for a place/identity...All they have is Accord platform and it shows.
Infiniti as a brand has started doing well AFTER IT DISASSOCIATED itself with Nissan.
LEMON LAW WILL APPLY
I also think that a power to cost based decision automatically makes the G8 a great choice, only drawback is the interior only comes in black so that is a no-go for me. I would get the room I need, good looks, reviews seem to be favorable, and rear wheel drive V8 punch with killer exhaust sound like only an America car can generate (the blender on steroid sound of the [non-permissible content removed] cars does not quite do it for me).
Ok enough of that, so what car did you finally decide to get? I would go with the A6 or GS 350 but that is just me.
But to each their own and everybody has different priorities. So I guess I'll say "you're welcome".
On another note, I just never figured that comparability between cars would be based on price and thought it was more towards what the manufacturer is trying to accomplish. I considered the Honda Accord in looking for my 4 door sedan but found it to be bland, spiritless, and uninspiring when compared with the Maxima. Great value, but just not exiting enough.
On the performance front, BMW has always used Clydesdales to measure from, whereas most Japanese manufacturers appear to use Shetland Ponies. You may recall that Acura/Honda, Mazda, Nissan and several other Japanese manufacturers had to restate (lower) their horspeower ratings a couple of years ago when they were independently found to be overstated. BMW, Mercedes and Porsche would never have tried that, even on "gullible" Americans. The [non-permissible content removed] tried to make it seem like a new SAE measurement standard was being implemented, but the fact is, they were caught cheating. And even now I still think the European horses are bigger than the Japanese ones.
Another big part of the performance difference is BMW's RWD setup and excellent drivetrain efficiency. Anything over about 200 horspeower in FWD doesn't add much to performance. Witness my 190hp 1995 Maxima that was tested at 6.6 - an extra 100 hp (and 600 lbs) only saves you 0.3 seconds. When BMW puts their 300 hp in a RWD 335i, they get sub 5 second 0-60. It's almost impossible to get a similar sized FWD car down to under 6 seconds, let alone 5. We'll have to see how Acura does with AWD in the 300hp TL, but that adds even more weight and AWD has at least 5-8% lower drivetrain efficiency than RWD.
Give him a break - that was the Johnny Walker talking.
I'm sure with a clear mind, he would have written 3.0 liter (non-turbo) I6.
Which car did you end up with ?
Ended up with MDX Tech with Power Tail Gate
Here is my rationale/thinking process
2009 Maxima
Liked the car.... but I thought 35K is little too high for what it offers (my opinion). And somehow I was not that enthusiastic after the drive... Cannot pinpoint the cause
2008 TL. Nice car, liked the fit and finish, Decent space, I was getting one for 28.5K base & 31.5K for TL type S with NAV. I probably would have bought this if not MDX. A good value.
2008 RL: Could not understand the purpose of this car. Is not significantly better then TL type S. Rear seat space is less then TL
Audi A6: 3.2L engine felt weaker. Liked 4.2...but it was over my budget
BMW 528: Best driving car. Was putoff by the I-Drive. wife did not like the all around visibility - specially from B piller back.
Lexus GS: Nice car, good treatment by dealer, was priced well too (41K for base). Dont really know why I didnt consider it after first test drive
M35: Best overall 4 door CAR. Good space, good driving & dealership experience. If TL was not 31K I would have bought this (CAR)
E350: Like the design. But after reading the reliability issues here at edmunds I scratched it off.
Genesis: This is the car I really wanted to like. The testdrive was OK. Has all the Doodads that you can think off. Was put off by Kerney Mesa Hyundai Dealer after he said "Genesis is probably too rich for you". Hyundai brand was scratched off
Suburu Outback: We do quite a bit camping etc. Thought a wagon might be a good thing to consider. Suburu Outback 3.0R is selling very well. Very difficult to find.
Finally Acura MDX: Was a good balance of the space we needed and the most car like 7 seater you can buy. 7 seater was not my first choice, but it was most PRACTICAL choice for us. Acura also had good incentives (Got mine for $358xx +TTL)
Other SUV's that I drove either too soft or too expensive.
A long confusing journey to buy a car
But I have to ask about some of the prices.
- The TL and TL-S at $3k+ BELOW invoice? $7k below MSRP? And the MDX you bought at $35.8k was at $4,300 below invoice and close to $9,000 under MSRP? I haven't been seriously shopping lately, but those seem like huge discounts. Is Acura that desparate? Where are you located?
- If you took your negotiating skills to the Nissan dealer and got a similar discount, you'd be looking at a $27-28k Maxima. Would that have changed your mind?
- On the A6 4.2 being over your budget, but the E350 not? I get A6's when I take my 911 in for service and in our area, the actual price after discounts of an A6 4.2 is less than an E350 (and even 535i). But all of these are in the low to mid $50's.
- What made you describe the M35 as the best overall car? The Infiniti dealers can't give them away here and the 2 people I know that bought one are both moderately unhappy. Ho-hum performance and driving dynamics, lousy gas mileage, and just not a "luxury feel". I have only riden, not driven the car, but even from the passenger seat, it wasn't very impressive.
- Did you consider used? I've never bought a used car, but a friend that had been shopping for a LS460 recently bought a 2004 S500 4-matic w/ 31k miles in absolutely pristine condition for $35,000 including a (additional) 4/50k extended warranty. With basic entry level luxury sedans like the Maxima pushing $35k+ and mid-level luxury sport sedans in the $45-$55k+ range, that $35k S-Class (or even cheaper A8 or 750i) looks like a great deal to someone who wants the extra space. Did you consider that option?
About the pricing... All prices are in Southern California. I used carsdirect.com in zipcode 90501 for comparision...and decided to shoot for 500 to 1000 below carsdirect prices.
For example this morning cars direct had following prices:
TL: 27.9K..so 28K is not that great
TL type S: 32.8 K
A6 3.2 base: 40.7K..add some options and tax ~45K
A6 4.2: 46.8 K add options and tax ~ 50K above my budget
E350 base: 41K add options etc ~45K. If I could wait till January I might have considered this... as there will be big deals on E350 in January to march time frame.
MDX Tech with PTG: 37.2K..so 35.8 is not that out of line. There is factory to dealer incentive of 4000...so I dipped 300 into his hold back.
Infiniti M: They have 3000 fectory to dealer incentive + 3000 loyalty cash for infiniti owners... That is 6K off invoice.
My assessment of Infiniti might be tainted as I have owned G20, I30, first gen Q45...and have been spoiled by the service. If Infiniti had a mid size non nissan based 7 seater I might have considered.
Maxima dealers here in So Cal are not that willing. Having said that I did not like the Max enough to start negotiating. Moreover I generally dont like buying first model year car.
No I did not consider used. I generally buy new, take care of them, and run them to ground
2008 MDX with Tech Pkg
Sterling grey
Black interior
No other add ons
Resisted buying a 7 seater for a long time...but in the end practicality won....
It is Mercedes that designates model number based on engine displacement (E350 is a 3.5 liter, C300 is a 3.0 liter, S550 is a 5.5 liter, you get the idea, makes sense too).
Good luck with the MDX. The discounts are amazing. My wife drives a 98 I30 and I recently traded by 1990 Q45 (had for 14 years) with 180K miles for a new GS350 ($7K discount off $52K sticker). I must say the Infiniti service department is great. Still gave me a loaner just for an oil change on my 18 year old Q.
The current Infiniti offerings turn way too high RPM on the highway for me.
What is up with the E350 in January? I did not consider Mercedes since Consumer Reports rates them the worst reliability of any make sold in the US.
Unfortunately (or not) it appears that economic conditions are better in my zip code (20815) than yours. The prices on the Acuras and Mercedes are $2-3k higher here in the DC area than in Southern California. But there are still some impressive deals.
Regarding the E350 at $45k or less loaded, that is not my first choice in a luxury performance sedan, but at $10k under MSRP, seems hard to beat as the best deal. The carsdirect price for a 535i is full MSRP. I can get a 535i $1k under US invoice by cutting a deal in PA and doing a European Delivery, but that isn't comparable to going down the street and buying from your neighborhood dealer. As for Mercedes reliability, I know it's only anecdotal, but I have at least 4-5 friends and business assocaites who have logged 150k+ miles on E-class's without any major issues. One bought a new E320 Bluetech last fall and his two kids have the previous E-classes, one of which hit 300k miles recently. Other than the fact that diesel is 15% higher than premium gas in our area, he is pretty happy with 25 mpg in the city and 35+ mpg on a recent 1,000 mile roundtrip to Kiawah Island with 2 (large) passengers and 3 sets of golf clubs in the trunk.
All of this doesn't bode well for Maxima dealers trying to get full MSRP (i.e. $37k+ ). When a Maxima is effectively priced halfway between a TL and a E-class and approaching some other true luxury cars and RWD sport sedans, even the most loyal Nissan customers have to question the prudence of spending that much. I suspect that with the economy the way it is, 2009 Maxima's will soon be selling for under invoice.
Sooner than you might expect.
teamdirect.com (Atlanta)
dobbsdirect.com (Memphis)
fitzmall.com (PA)
Last time when they rewamped S class the outgoing S class was selling for 20K off MSRP.
New 2010 E350 is scheduled to arrive in March 09...My guess is we will see discounts begning January
Sanjay
So Cal seems to be doing well...There is lot more competition...and people, I believe, like to show off more then east coast.
As they say So Cal is famous for
Beaches, Cars, and Structured Bodies.
OUT4CAT: Max is a beauty...dont get me wrong.
Take good care of that VQ engine...Its very sensitive to gasoline you put in...My 2000 I30 needs either Cheveron or Shell Gas. Else Check engine light comes on...