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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
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Comments
They irritate me too. Fortunately, we don't have any in Huntsville AL.
". . . nowhere in my top requirements for a car."
Nor should it. This is why this long running thread in the Prius forum makes no sense except for amusement. The earnestness of the TDI advocates is only exceeded by their limited but growing understanding that others may have a different set of requirements.
". . . paperweight functions . . ."
The 1 kW inverter and emergency power means we don't have to 'curse the darkness.' The vehicle provides a return on investment even when sitting in the driveway. Eventually, I hope to go full, co-generation powered by natural gas providing both house heat and power. It is another area where the TDI will never hope to achieve.
". . . the difference between 45 & 55 mpg is trivial . . . "
The average NHW11 owner is getting 45 MPG and the ZVW30, 2010 Prius, is getting 50 MPG. But the 2010 Prius has a lot more space and the 1.8L engine gives it better high speed, highway and hill climbing performance. It is a better car. BTW, the 2010 Prius steering has more caster.
BTW, I note the average TDI owner is reporting 40 MPG in www.fueleconomy.gov. So there you have:
40 MPG - TDI owners
45 MPG - NHW11 owners (personal 52 MPG)
50 MPG - ZVW30 owners (personal 52 MPG)
As for my 52 MPG in the NHW11, I simply choose to drive Prius friendly routes and pay attention to vehicle warm-up. The ZVW30, 2010 Prius, has removed those limitations.
" . . . For my tastes, Prius is an incredibly awful riding/handling vehicle . . ."
Correct! Others have different 'tastes'.
I found the 2010 Prius tracks better than our 2003 Prius. However, I've also found long distance travel in our older, 2003 Prius is not nearly as fatiguing as our earlier, non-hybrid vehicles. The 2003 Prius doesn't have the fatiguing noise and vibration so driving 14 or more hours in a day is entirely practical with just ordinary breaks. I have done two, 24 hour trips in the 2003 Prius only possible because it doesn't 'beat me up.' The ZVW30, 2010 Prius is even better but I don't expect others to share my taste in vehicles or driving.
The one problem with the 2010 Prius is my wife drives with a lead foot. She had the car up to 93 mph and I didn't notice it until I looked at the GSP speed. Our non-Prius cars complained a lot at speeds over 90 mph and became uncomfortable. The 2010 handles it quietly and smoothly ... even on Tennessee roads.
Still, this thread remains and TDI advocates continue to make themselves available for conversion ... or at least getting a clue. It isn't as if Prius advocates have to hang out in TDI forums ... a behavior that has a name. I suspect there are many fine GM and Chrysler forums that need the 'TDI good news.'
Bob Wilson
Ah, but you are wrong. I have been on the diesel and TDI forum since 1998 and from the first Prius entering this country we have had TDI envy posters making snide remarks and posting inaccurate data about diesel cars. And if you noticed this thread is a Prius vs Golf TDI. Which, if you were not aware, the Golf TDI beat out the 2010 Prius as "Green Car of the Year". It was also picked as the World Car of the Year over the Prius. The Prius appeals to a small segment of the World's population, mostly in high mileage deprived USA. There are dozens of diesel cars in the World that get better than 52 MPG. You just cannot buy one here in the Land of the Free.
Well that was rude. Were any of them Prius advocates or just the usual net detritis?
" . . . if you were not aware . . . "
Perhaps you were not aware of November car sales:
- Prius sales exceeded VW TDI sales 3x
- Toyota hybrid sales exceeded VW TDI sales 4x
- All hybrid sales exceeded VW TDI sales by 5x
The voters used $24-$30,000 ballots. The December voting has already started.
". . . dozens of diesel cars . . . get better than 52 MPG . . ."
Which one is the full size, Prius sized version that does 52 MPG in the City?
Bob Wilson
I understand that passions on both sides run high, but this discussion is supposed to be for those folks who might be trying to decide between the two vehicles, not a place to "prove" anything.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation!
My brother-in-law live in PA and have an 06 Sienna with navigation that he just paid $200 6 months ago to update his navigation DVD.
I myself would not buy an unreliable car because they provide the greatest navigation system on the market.
I like both hybrid and diesel cars. You do not have to put hybrid down because you like diesel vehicles. Either vehicles would reduce our energy consumption and dependence on the middle east.
And the good side. I do like driving the Sequoia. It handles nicely for its size. If it had a diesel engine I would consider putting in decent electronics and keeping it.
Unfortunately some of car salesmen are not too honest, they will bend the truth to make a sale. There are also good car salesmen also. You need to get everything down in writing before signing the contract.
On another subject, I would love to see diesel cars + truck to be offered by the Japanese and Korean companies. The less fuel we burn, the longer the oil supply will last for all of us. Also less pollution. Enjoy your Sequoia.
The MT COTY runner-rup was the 2010 Prius.
What caused me to decide on the Golf TDI was the comfort of the sport seat and the feel of the leather wrapped steering wheel. The bolstering of the seat was snug and I was able to find the perfect seat adjustment. Also, I wanted the $1700 tax credit. And 236 lb feet of torque should mean a peppy around town ride. Now I am going to wait for three months for it to be delivered.
Again, thanks for all your interesting posts.
Bottom line is a person should drive both and make the decision based on need and wants. For me the MPG is not at the top of the list.
That is how it should be. Your money, your requirements, and your decision. Others have a different weight for their requirements and that of course is their right ... it is their money.
GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
What are her vehicle requirements?
Bob Wilson
http://money.ca.msn.com/investing/news/breaking-news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=- - 23395619
That doesn't sound like 'a bulletproof' vehicle. at least in 2010 or in other prius models such as 2006 where now there are over 700 problems (773 at 1:21PM PST on 2/4/10) reported by NHTSA. Also for the record, people who think tranny problems are worse than brake problems, BOTH of these problems can get people killed on the road. And in terms of more problems per capita according to NHTSA in the recent models between Prius and TDIs, Prius wins it hands down almost all the cases from 2006.
2009 Prius seemed to be more reliable than 2009 Jetta TDIs, but the 2009 Prius problems reports have increased faster than 2009 Jetta TDIs. It can be than Jetta TDI drivers don't want to report their issues, but how come the Prius problems are increasing by the day?
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ Just go to this website and type Prius 2006 or any other year. Only 2009 has reported relatively low amount of problems (but they are piling up as I speak) . Then the bad streak started again in 2010.
Oh, wait... Toyota doesn't have any of that to tide their owners over until reliability improves.
:P
I thought the Golf TDI has ABS, also ESC--yes? Those are computer-controlled systems. So for drivers of the Golf TDI, or any ABS-equipped car, the only thing between them and stopping the car is a computer program.
Also do you have a link substantiating that the hydraulic brakes on the 2010 Prius do not work under certain conditions? According to Toyota, a driver can feel a pause in the braking when the vehicle switches between the hydraulic brakes and the electronically operated braking system under certain circumstances, but the brakes work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal. A "pause" is different from not working, IMO.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
The pious among the hybrid worshiping crowd tend to rant unceasingly of the lack of VW reliability.
Recall may only be a software flash for the Prius and a couple of shims for the majority of Toyota's, it's still a serious issue that is attracting major media coverage every day.
Ask the media why Toyota recall is front page news?
Prius reputation is tarnished.
For the record, 2010 Golf TDI has not been recalled.
The story of VW unreliability over the years is fact, whether you choose to admit it or not. Not tarnished... more like caked with corrosion. But VW seems to be getting its act together with the more recent Golfs.
I bet if the software problem on the Prius had not followed Toyota's accelerator debacle, it would not be receiving nearly as much attention as it has.
I notice how you left out the 2009 MY. Was that because there were only 137 complaints that year? You also left out the first two years of the Gen 2 Prius history; each of those years had fewer than 500 complaints.
Should we talk about all the Golfs and Rabbits recalled by the NHTSA over the past few years? Looks like it was pretty much ALL of them, from 1999-2008.
Update: Interesting (and telling?) comment from one of the NHTSA complaints for the 2010 Prius: "I DIDN'T THINK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS BEFORE I BEGAN HEARING THE NEWS."
If I had a safety-related problem on one of my cars and was experiencing it "every day" as this person claims to have done, I wouldn't wait four months to take action about it.
That said, Toyota blew it big-time by not applying the software fix to the cars already sold, as soon as it was available.
You own a Rabbit and I am sure you have driven a Prius. How do they compare? If you could get 50 MPG with a Golf would you buy a Prius?
Maybe he is like many Toyota owners, tired of the runaround and "that is the way it is supposed to work" line from the dealers. None of my issues would be considered safety except the tailgate not going up all the way in the cold and me hitting my head. The only dealer I found less responsive than Toyota was the Subaru dealer in Alaska. Best has been Chevy, Ford, VW, & Chrysler. No particular order. One worthless Chevy dealer who just happens to also be the Lexus dealer on the hot seat for those 4 people dying as a result of putting the wrong floor mat in their loaner car.
Keep in mind almost all of the current complaints on the 2010 Prius are for a single design flaw, already fixed via software update. The job now is to get the update to the field.
I don't own the Rabbit any more. Was not comfortable for my wife with a bad back to climb into and out of. Had to get a bigger car with 4 doors. Miss driving the Rabbit, but the sedan is more practical for the family.
Find me a Golf that can get 50 mpg consistently in city/suburban driving and guarantee me an unlimited supply of non-gelling-in-winter diesel that is the same price as regular unleaded, in MN, and we'll talk about it.
That is about as likely to happen as you finding a Prius that handles & brakes good on all road conditions in MN. I see many reports of low 30 MPG with Prius in the winter.
Cold affects fuel economy of all cars, not just the Prius. But here's what Road & Track found when they compared the 2010 Prius and Golf TDI (against a Ford Fiesta!) in real-world conditions in and around L.A. (numbers are mpg of course):
Easy Suburban driving: Prius 57.5, TDI 41.1, Fiesta 38.1
Suburban Sprawl: Prius 66.7, Fiesta 43.8, TDI 39.0
Mixed Suburban: Prius 62.3, TDI 43.1, Fiesta 42.1
Canyon Carving: Prius 40.8, Fiesta 34.4, TDI 30.9
"Free" Ways: Prius 53.8, TDI 45.0, Fiesta 41.5
Dreaded Commute: Prius 57.8, TDI 47.4, Fiesta 42.8
"LA4" (old EPA city cycle): Prius 50.5, Fiesta 32.2, TDI 31.6
Freeway cruise, AC off: Prius 57.3, TDI 53.5, Fiesta 46.8
Freeway cruise, AC on: Prius 55.8, TDI 49.2, Fiesta 44.4
Overall: Prius 54.5, TDI 42.7, Fiesta 40.8
Two conclusions:
1) If I am looking for max fuel economy, with room for two adults in back, the Prius is the clear winner.
2) If I am looking for a small hatchback that is fun to drive, sips fuel, and is economical, including up-front cost... the Fiesta looks like it will be a great choice.
Not even on my radar. I rode a lot with a preacher friend I recommended getting a Prius. It was a 2009 and rough riding noisy and just nothing I could consider. The only reason I would buy the Golf TDI is for running errands and back country drives. I sat in a GTI and liked the seats. I hate our Lexus LS400 as it is a big strain on my back getting out. I like a vehicle with some ground clearance and easy entry and exit. Cars generally are not comfortable to me.
By the way I doubt any of the Prius with the updates have been sold. It was not added in the factory until late January. If Toyota is telling the truth. I see reports on the 2010 Prius brakes as early as July 2nd 09. 300,000 vehicles and 7 months to figure it out.
103 - Prius Hybrid
110 - Jetta
Looks like the Jetta costs more to insure.
The EPA maintains a fuel efficiency web site that individual users can record their mileage and we find:
40.1 MPG (27 vehicles) - 2009 Jetta TDI diesel, automatic, compact car
46.5 MPG (115 vehicles) - 2008 Toyota Prius, automatic, midsize car
49.0 MPG (70 vehicles) - 2010 Toyota Prius, automatic, midsize car
So the Prius remains the most affordable to drive, especially in urban areas with more interior space than the Jetta TDI compact car. Note, these are user mileage reports, not the formal EPA testing. So far, the 2010 Prius is the most fuel efficient.
About the brake pause, I was able to capture one event last week after trying for nearly 6 weeks. It is rare, only 50% of Prius owners report experiencing it. In the 2010 owners, only 20% consider it severe. However, most agree that as rare as it is, many times it can not be replicated at will, stepping harder on the brake pedal stops the car RIGHT NOW!
In the case I captured, it happened at a speed of less than 25 mph after a speed bump in light rain. The pause was 700-800 milliseconds and other than feeling like the typical "slip n slide" we have with Huntsville streets when it rains, it was unremarkable. This was the first and only experience I've had since May 2009 and like I said, it was unremarkable.
I understand there may be other requirements for vehicle ownership not having to do with vehicle space, insurance and fuel costs. But I could not afford to drive a Jetta in the urban routes that my wife and I have to deal with. Nor could we tolerate the limited interior space. As for insurance costs, the Prius is more affordable as of 2009. We also like the quiet interior that is all but free of engine noise. But these may not be of any value to a Jetta owner and I am good with that.
BTW, we analyzed the Prius fatal accident rate, 2001-07, and found it was less than half that of the USA fleet average. I have no idea where the Jetta stands but the 2010 Prius did receive very high marks in the European safety scores.
Now I'm a Greenback dollar "green" guy so I really don't care about the California Air Resources Board ranking of the Jetta TDI vs Prius. However, the CARB data shows the Prius to be 2-5 times less polluting than the Jetta TDI. It doesn't matter in Alabama because we don't emissions test our vehicles.
Bob Wilson
I found your "Relative Collision Insurance Cost Information Booklet" online and just checking. If you are concerned about insurance cost you would get a big SUV. If you will take a look my Sequoia gets a "31" compared to the Prius "103". Yes it is cheaper to get complete coverage on a $51k Sequoia than a $30k Prius. And the Rabbit which is the Golf, that this thread is comparing gets a "106". I was shocked when my 05 Passat Wagon "87" insurance was higher than my 05 GMC Sierra PU. Then my 07 Sequoia came in even less than the PU truck. Telling me I am driving one of the safest vehicles on the road. It uses a bit more gas, but the safety is worth it.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Articles/Associated%- - 20Files/2009_Insurance_Costs_Comparison.pdf
Speaking of fuel costs. We took a 5700 mile trip in the Sequoia last fall. From SD to South Dakota over to Minnesota down to Indiana back to New Mexico and home. Total fuel cost $759.06. Try getting a plane ticket to all those places for two people that cheap. We had plenty of room for all our stuff. The safest vehicle on the road and no fatigue from being stuck in a little econobox all day long. Cost of fuel is way down my list of importance.
You mentioned:
"Speaking of fuel costs. We took a 5700 mile trip in the Sequoia last fall. From SD to South Dakota over to Minnesota down to Indiana back to New Mexico and home. Total fuel cost $759.06. Try getting a plane ticket to all those places for two people that cheap. We had plenty of room for all our stuff. The safest vehicle on the road and no fatigue from being stuck in a little econobox all day long. Cost of fuel is way down my list of importance."
I'm a great believer in getting the right tool for the right job. Sometimes that is a honkin' big SUV or even an RV. Other times, it is fuel efficient urban vehicle. Some road warriors may be better served by something else. It really comes down to a question of individual requirements.
GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
Prius $25,393 Jetta $25,396
2010 Golf and 2010 Jetta do not list ownership cost yet on Intellichoice.
Jetta is $3 more.
Factor in the $1300 Tax Credit and the Jetta has lower cost.
Factor in the fact that VW TDI's have a real world higher retained value and VW TDI is lower cost of ownership.
Factor in the free 3 years maintenance and VW TDI is lower cost.
I, like Edmunds, Autoweek, Automobile Magazine, Car and Driver and Motorweek prefer the superior handling and superior interior of the VW Jetta to the Prius.
Golf TDI interior and handling are even better than the Jetta, so it is reasonable to expect it to be reviewed as well as or better than the Jetta TDI.
For those enthusiasts among us that prefer to shift their own gears, TDI is offered with 6 speed manual transmission or 6 speed dual clutch auto/manual DSG transmission. Prius is not an option for manual transmission.
Prius is the best appliance for highest mpg.
Golf TDI is the best choice for smiles per mpg.
Perhaps insurance rates for Toyota's need to be drastically increased.
Toyota Exec: It's OK, My Son Drives a Prius
Prius owners everywhere can take comfort in the safety of their vehicles now that Lentz has disclosed they are safe enough for his family to drive.
"Prius is the best appliance for highest mpg.
Golf TDI is the best choice for smiles per mpg. "
I tend to smile at the gas pump ... a lot.
Bob Wilson
(Even when air travel is less expensive, I prefer to drive, if I have the right TDI vehicle and the time, and a road to travel.)
VW owners tend to smile during the drive, due to the fun.
Prius owners tend to smile when not driving, because of a cost analysis.
To each his own. But neither side will convince the other of anything, because of philosphical differences in driving attitudes.
"VW owners tend to smile during the drive, due to the fun.
Prius owners tend to smile when not driving, because of a cost analysis."
It turns out that Prius owners tend to drive more miles ... they can afford it. When they get where they are going, a nice dinner instead of trading off between fuel to get back or food.
Bob Wilson
Prius sample review:
Bought the car less than 4 months ago. Happy with the gas mileage. Three times I had to jump stat the car. The fourth time, even after charging, the car would not start. I called the Toyota emergency service, was told there is no free towing service for the Prius. We had it towed to the dealer. They reset about 8 codes and said the car was fine. Two days later at noon, the car would not start and had to jump start and took it the dealer. They charged the battery and said it is fine. I think this model has some electrical problem. They should have tried a new battery, but did not do it. The display panel in the middle of the car is not ideal. To look at it, you have to take your eyes off the road.
No free towing on a brand new car? That is crazy.
Hopefully it is a short drive to dinner:
Just can't get comfortable. Back and bottom hurt after two hours, not like my former ride, a Grand Caravan, which was comfy. Has few adjustments, and I can't find a combination of seat and steering wheel positions that works for me. I am 5' 1" and 125 pounds. The console thingy is annoying, maybe because I am so far forward but otherwise can't reach the gas. So this is why it has not been so fun to drive. Averaging 47 mpg.
Typical Golf TDI review:
This car is fun to drive! Its handling is outstanding. Parking is as easy as it gets. The steering feel is just right. A comfortable driving position is very easy to obtain. The interior is well designed and the fit and finish is first rate throughout. Gauges and controls are well placed and easy to use. There is ample room to hold your groceries, packages, etc in the rear under the hatchback. By the way, the DSG six-speed automatic is the best I've ever driven! Fuel mileage is awesome better than the government's estimates. What a great little commuter vehicle this is solid, comfortable, economical, quiet, safe and fun to drive! Oh, did I mention the $1,700 tax credit?
I am sure the higher cost of a comparable Prius will more than negate the slightly better mileage.
Bob Wilson
Buyers of both vehicles can afford to drive any number of vehicles. There are too many choices in the $20K to $30K range to list.
TDI and Prius buyers choose to buy a high mpg vehicle. Often for very different reasons.
Any Prius buyer that has to choose between eating or paying for fuel has serious financial issues. They would be better off buying a used Golf or Corolla.