Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see May lease deals!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Bob
Bob
Because of the fact that the CVT almost instantaneously takes a engine to its peak horsepower & torque & then stays there until one lets up on the gas, it sounds & feels odd.. But nothing does the job as well & it in 5 -10 years everyone will be used to it. I am still bemoaning the fact that the 2010 Forester does not have a CVT & may well buy a Outback instead solely for that reason.
...And it's a sweet unit, indeed. I don't understand what the complaints were from (some of) the media. I found it to be a really good shifting unit. Yeah, it's a little notchy, but I like that.
I was also particularly impressed with the large center armrest and the relationship it had with the shift lever. It was just so natural to rest your arm on it while shifting; really good ergonomics there.
As some of you know I'm a big fan of the gear indicator, which this car has. 5th and 6th gears are so close, you could easily forget what gear you're in, and this little touch is really appreciated, at least by me. It's interesting that the gear readout does not show when the clutch is pushed in. So, if you're at a stop light with the clutch in, it doesn't show.
My drive was limited to some interstate and city driving. Unfortunately I did not get a chance to find some windy roads, as I would have liked to have seen how it handled those roads. Ah... another excuse to go and drive one.
Compared to my '09 WRX, it is much more refined, very quiet and softer riding (but still firm). Well, it is a "GT" after all. It will make taking trips really something to look forward to, as it's a great highway car. My WRX feels and is faster, and in that respect I'm a little disappointed in the GT. I can't help but wonder what this car would be like with a 3.6 turbo.
And yeah, the seats need better side bolstering—especially if it's to be a true grand touring sedan. Oh, that e-parking brake? It does feel weird with a manual tranny. Not sure I like with a manual?
Bob
Having driven both transmissions (6-speed and CVT) and also you being a fan on a good manual what would/will you now get if you were/are buying a 2010 H4 Outback? How did the acceleration feel and which accelerated faster?
Also, I'm used to driving a WRX. So when I get into my wife's '01 Forester automatic, it seems dog-slow to me.
Bob
I heard that 2010 Subaru CVT is of a chain type, different then Nissan. Hopefully they designed out the troubles (that they know of).
On the other hand, I have always been too conservative, so take it for what is worth.
As to towing, the CVT-equipped Outback is rated to tow the same as last year's 4EAT Outback.
Bob
On the way back from a great family weekend we decided to stop by & look at size up the three candidates at an automall about 20 miles from our city. We agreed to only kick tires & not drive anything today.
1st stop the VW / Mistubishi lot. Only a couple of sales people there, no customers to be seen anywhere. The Jetta Sportwagen Tdi looks sharp, felt good - somewhat similar to the our A4 - & certaintly would seem to be the least expensive to purchase with leather (acutally a hard to tell from leather vinyl material) & drive. But it does not have much ground clearance (about 5.5") & it simply did not seem like the practical choice for towing a 2000 lb bass boat or taking it on rough, rutted forest service roads to ge to hiking trails in the Pacific NW.
Next stop the Subaru dealer across the street. About 3 customers were looking at cars as we pulled in. The 1st thing I noticed was a person from our neighborbod was negotiating her trade on the 2010 Outback Ltd on the showroom floor (they also had a 2010 OB Premium on the lot). We went to look at 2010 Forester Ltd only to be quickly told to back off by another sales guy as he was getting the keys to take it for a test drive. Went to look at a O9 Forester Ltd & there was a couple expressing interest in it!
After looking over & sitting in both models, my wife liked the Outback better. Prefered the smaller moon roof & interior roominess / appearance and & exterior appearance. The seats were indeed very comfortable on the showroom floor & I have not doubt the car will be a very pleasant ride. I was surprised that the armrest in the new OB did not extendable like that in the new Forester. While visually the cargo area in the new OB looks bigger apparently it is is only marginally larger (according to measurements on cars101.com) then that of the Forster. So it looks like the OB placed more emphasis on passenger room than cargo room.
As for me, the increased passenger space & comfort of the OB is appealing to us 60 year olds.But the biggest draw for me on the OB is the CVT & approximately 20% greater fuel efficiency. I suspect that will be a favorable factor 5 -10 years from now when it comes time to sell it & gas prices are presumable significantly increased. That said, I still have a soft spot for the Forester - I like the idea that it is a bit smaller, has a smaller turning circle & presumable will feel a bit crisper & lighter when taking it into a tight corner at speed or pulling out to pass. It will take a 20 mile test drive to really compare the comfort & handling of the two. Plus I will reading professional reviews and watching forums such as this looking for trusted opinions.
Two months ago, I thought purchasing a new 09 Forester shortly after the 2010s were introduced was inevitable. But with no incentives and only a few 09 Forester Limiteds available, the alure of an O9 Forester is fast dimming. We have $900 Subbie Bucks & can't get any more until end of August. But then I can rack up $500 more pretty quick with business purchases. So I think we will probably we ready to deal in September & hopefully some of the pent up demand for an updated OB will have cooled down.
When the sales guy said he could give me a good price on any of them I informed him that we had the VIP plan & my starting price would be 2% below invoice he noticably got quiet. I am not sure if I was wise to disclose that so early, but it seemed to take a little wind out of his sail. He actually asked me not to tell others about the VIP plan !
By the time we left my neighbor's was smile was bigger than when we came in & the folks that looked at the 2010 Forester we talking trade-in values. I would have guessed folks would be looking for deals on the 09s, but at least for the hour we were there, the 2010s were all the rage! So,in NW WA, people are buying Subarus & not just last years left overs. It looks like Subaru a great time to be a Subbie salesperson & that SOA may finish the already record year real strong.
You may think this "over the top" and "undeserved". Unless you've over 40. Shame on you for asking the rest of us to pay for a light that tells you where your left foot is.
Yep, I'm well over 40, and judging by your post, probably have been driving a stick-shift longer than you have been on this planet.
Bob
This may be news to you, but some of us drive with our right hand on the steering wheel. Maybe it's just something you pick up when you turn 40
That's what I found with web searches, but it is possible that those CVTs were earlier ones with the 5 plate rather than the 7 plate clutch which was in later models. Who has up-to-date information?
For the record, is top gear to the right and up, or down? How long were the throws? I too find the center-armrest-to-shifter arrangement can make or break the pleasure of a particular vehicle's driving. I loved my '99 Pathfinder for that, and the fact that resting my hand on the shifter knob while in 5th put the radio controls a finger-length away.
For the record, I've owned over 35 cars & trucks, more than half of them were stick-shift, and none of them had a light to tell me what gear I'm in. Not sure I'd use it if I had it. I always put the shifter in neutral and then let out the clutch while at stoplights of any appreciable length, anyway. Force of habit, I suppose, having replaced a few throwout bearings in my time.
Keep the posts coming, Bob. Let us know if you spring for the Legacy GT.
I can't tell you how many times and how many miles I've driven in 4th, thinking I'm in 5th; or in 3rd thinking I'm in 4th, with my new WRX. This is a result of a quiet cabin and smooth engine, and is even more of a problem when you're dealing with six closely spaced gears.
Never had this problem with older less refined cars with fewer gears, but I now very much welcome this gear indicator. I believe the new Nissan 370Z also has this feature, and I suspect it will become commonplace in the future as it will encourage you to drive more efficiently (less revs = better gas mileage).
Unfortunately a new car is not in my current budget.
Bob
Bob
Or never, if real world...not EPA... fuel economy turns out to be at least as good. Use Consumer Reports' mpg numbers when they become available to decide.
CVTs are gaining popularity with a number of carmakers, so I'm not that concerned about the reliability issue. Also, Subaru is a very conservative company. I seriously doubt that they would risk their excellent and hard-earned reputation on a CVT if they had any concerns about it.
I'm guessing the CVT will match or better the 6-speed in acceleration.
Bob
Tell me, how does one steer with the right hand while driving a stick? In the US, and not in a JDM vehicle?
Granted, if you keep your hand there "all the time," you likely wouldn't forget what gear you're in; but that's not how I drive.
Bob
If the 6-speed could actually get the same mileage, and could be had for $800-1000 less, I'd take it.
The big no-no is driving with left foot resting on the clutch pedal. Nothing good comes of that.
Bob
First, they styling is down right horrible and the body design has no continuity. This goes for both sedan and the Outback.
The materials used in the previous generation Legacy/Outback were much much better. The whole interior is hard plastic in this latest rendition. I find the center of the dash obtrusive and hideous.
I drove a 2.5i with the automatic transmission and power delivery was virtually identical to the previous generation. It had 16" alloys on it that make it look like it was riding on doughnuts. ugh...
One thing that confuses me is the size of the Outback. It's larger in mass then a Forester, yet, sits lower on the ground and it costs more. It almost seems as if Subaru is canabolizing it's own sales.....
I have had so many people come to my Subaru store and express their displeasure with it. This is not a good sign....
The ground clearance of the Outback and the Forester are the same.
Bob
What I really enjoyed was the engine/CVT combo. There seemed to be plenty of power on tap and at highway cruising speeds the engine dropped below 2000 rpm. The programming of the CVT seems very well sorted out. Road noise was significant, but not objectionable. Ride quality was good.
My only complaint with the engine was noticeable vibration at idle. There is none in the bigger Toyota Venza 4. The ride, interior and exterior are much better than the Venza however. I'm still trying to figure out which planet the Venza came from. The way too big 20 inch wheels on the Venza also contribute to a truck like ride.
All in all the Outback is the front runner in the early stages of my search for a new 4 wheel drive road vehicle. The Forester would be of consideration too if they got rid of that damn 4 speed auto and replaced it with the CVT. Depending on dealer discounts and/or rebates (admittedly unlikely on a brand new model) I may be driving an Outback soon.
I expect that to happen in a couple of years, if not sooner.
Bob
see http://www.jatco.co.jp/ENGLISH/PRODUCTS/cvt.html
I've also read that the chain driven CVTs tend to have a longer life than the old belt driven ones, but may be more expensive to repair/replace. I've also seen anecdotal evidence that the Audi CVT TCU issues may have been on their early ones.
It's a frustrating crapshoot ... CVT from a long established mfr tho' new to the Subie v. a new 6-speed (reminds me of my old Saab days when they strengthened the pinion bearing (a weak point) in their 5-speed in the '89 900s, and yet our '89 turned out to be the only one of several high mileage Saabs we owned that needed a tranny rebuild!).
I am going to have to make a choice very soon, my '01 Audi wagon is dying and I'll be trading it in the next 2-3 weeks probably, either for a leftover '09 OB Ltd., or maybe a '10 OB Premium (but then there are those tranny choices/gremlins, lol). :confuse: :confuse:
Bob
Bob
So instead of buying from a reputable established supplier, they are trying to essentially copy that product in house at a lower cost.
That endeavor IMO/IME carries with it both the possibility of success, and the real possibility of failure either from using less robust parts, less robust & effective engineering or manufacturing, etc.
It increases the crap-shoot aspect of gambling on the long term reliability.
We will know that there is a JATCO connection if Nissan eventually uses it in an AWD drive vehicle like they did an early Subaru drive system years ago. Present Nissan AWD could use some improvements.
If the CVT is all Subaru...or worse yet any piece of an Audi...reliability long term is a concern. I left VW/Audi vehicles to never return some years ago after very expensive failures. I would be comfortable with the JATCO units, but certainly would wait quite some time before trusting any component from an Audi supplier.
1. I probably will not drive my next car more than 12,000/year so unless it is crap, it should last
2. Subaru seems to stand behind their products & if there an obvious flaw rears its ugly head several years later, they are likely to stand behind it w an extended warranty -- They did so for the "cold clutch judder" problem in 03 Foresters (personal experience) & wheel bearings (experiece of friend with OB).
Still, I understand the waryiness behind new design / technology - bugs do tend to show up!.
There are many failure modes that do not require high miles. For those whose memories are long, recall reverse gear Powerglide failures in Corvettes. Mine was one of them at very low miles.
That said, the new Subaru AWD/CVT unit appears to be a miracle of light weight, amazingly compact design. Let's hope they did it right.
Bob
But that is EPA mpg, an optimist's dream. It would be no surprise if the 6-speed manual is slightly better for a careful driver in the real world. But for most drivers the CVT will probably do better.
Another factor in mpg may be front/rear torque split with more front, less rear an advantage. I believe I saw 90/10 % F/R mentioned for the new system which is even more FWD than older 4EATs' 80/20%....not to mention near even torque split on the five-speed auto 3.6 liter.
Does the front end plough on the CVT? Perhaps torque split is varied by the stability control during cornering to avoid it. Does anyone know?
That's never been officially stated by Subaru. At least I haven't seen it—and I've looked. All Subaru says is that it constantly varies. As to 90/10 or 80/20? Who knows?
No, the CVT-equipped Legacy and Outback don't plow as far as I could tell.
Bob
After literally years of research I ended up leasing an 09 Legacy SE in Sept. 08 and I'm nothing short of thrilled with my decision. Ten months of trouble free driving (not a rattle in sight) and they even throw in a free loaner with every service visit (all of three so far). Recent trip NYC (1500mi RT) averaged 32 mpg. That's compact car numbers.
The deal sealer was the extraordinary high quality of the interior. Soft touch everywhere. Some people don't care but for me hard plastic everywhere means I'm driving a piece of crap. This car's interior is at least 10K higher in quality than its price. The SE with free moonroof and Harman-Kardon was the icing on the cake.
The 2010 apparently charges an extra 1K for each of those items so basically the price is up 2K for a comparable car.
As to what the public will think of the car (mainly the looks) I would have to say that since they buy numerous vehicles that could be charitably described as bland they may not be put off by the 2010's styling. Guess will see. I for one will pass when my lease is up.