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Comments
It would if you knew all the FACTS.
Apparently the Prius owners manual has a caution note regarding putting the shifter in neutral while underway.
This is a cruise control firmware flaw.
Read:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/251
and then read post #2647, 2662 and 2664 on this thread.
The cause of the ES 350 accident was a stuck throttle caused by having two sets of floor mats. That is the official conclusion. Yes, it is tragic, but accidents happen.
All these other incidents are pure hysteria, people not wanting to admit that they made a mistake, or just kooks.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Put yourself into the brother-in-laws seat. He is calling 911 to report the car he is in isscreaming with a WOT. He said they tried everything and the car would not stop or slow down. Now if Saylor the CHP was going crazy and not trying his best to stop the car, don't you think the BIL would have mentioned that little fact? I have seen so many illogical explanations here and no one has provided solid evidence that an ES350 with WOT going 120 MPH can be shifted into neutral or even shut off with a 3 seconds hold on the button. You would think that Lexus would have made that test with witnesses for the impending court trial. And I do agree it was the over-sized floor mat that caused the WOT. On this accident the disk brakes were on fire. May have been the cause of the fire when they crashed.
If you are right. Why is it predominantly limited to Toyota and Lexus vehicles. Most of the complaints on the ODI site are long before the Saylor crash last year. I just don't find it logical that so many more people owning Toyotas would be incompetent compared to the other brands. And no matter how they try to shuffle and cherry pick the UA or brake failure complaints, Toyota is WAY out in the lead. As many here have said. Where there is smoke there must be fire.
It is really conclusive that the floor mats were the source of the problem..??
No, simply no way to determine.
The previous driver of that ES350 says he reported the floor mat problem to the dealer. That would indicate he had encountered the stuck pedal problem yet he survived. What was his "procedure" that he avoided the same fate..??
I find it rather impossible to believe that the Saylor vehicle travelled as far as it did and at HIGH speed without the driver doing everything within reason to bring it to a stop.
I agree with you there. I just did not hear anything in that 911 call that would lead me to believe anything but Saylor was trying his best to avoid other cars and stop his loaner car. The burnt up brakes tell the tale. We may never know if he tried to get it in neutral as the EDR data was conveniently destroyed according to Lexus. They had the only reader in the USA. That case is closed except for how many $million the family gets.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/NHTSA_Santee_Inspect.pdf
The one in the picture appears to have a cutout area on both right and left top sides.
BTW, "I think there is something going on but that it is a Poisson distribution," you made me do some homework there. If I ever knew the meaning of that, I forgot it as quick as I could!!! (It means a very rare random event.)
PS Isn't reading about this a wonderful obscession???? LOL!
No easy answer for the Toyota problem
By Jeremy Anwyl
Tuesday, March 16, 2010; A19
Lately it seems that each day brings another report of a driver's terrifying experience with an out-of-control Toyota. There have been at least four congressional hearings in as many weeks.
Even the most confident consumer has to wonder what is causing all this and, more fundamentally, whether Toyotas are safe to drive.
The second question is easier to answer. Despite the flurry of reports, incidents with speeding vehicles are rare. And vehicles today, including Toyotas, are safer than ever.
While we have heard much recently about "smart pedals," floor mats and sticky throttles, it has not been made clear what is behind the incidents of sudden acceleration. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has been investigating sudden vehicle acceleration for a few decades, but it has little new to offer since the 1989 Audi investigation. During that time the agency reported that many incidents of sudden or unintended acceleration by Audi drivers were caused when drivers stepped on the gas instead of the brake.
Ultimately, Audi and other automakers implemented features that required brakes to be depressed when shifting gears out of park, and reports of sudden acceleration when drivers started their cars dropped noticeably.
But as vehicles have become more advanced and, presumably, safer, complaints have still been logged.
As a consumer resource for automotive information, Edmunds.com has a stake in finding answers. We also have a data team that crunches numbers, and we have vehicle testers, both of which we recently assigned to help solve the mystery of unintended acceleration.
We assigned 25 staffers to review, line by line, the published consumer complaint data available on the NHTSA Web site. The database, with more than 760,000 records, is, simply put, a mess. After reading each complaint since model-year 2005, we found that 30 percent of the original complaints were miscategorized; more than 26 percent were duplicates; and hundreds were not complaints but merely comments or suggestions.
When we focused on the major automakers and limited our review to recent-model-year vehicles (2005 to present), the 52,000 complaints through September 2009 -- a fair stopping point, because it was before news reports erupted -- showed that every car company had incidents of sudden acceleration. This is not strictly a Toyota issue. NHTSA head David L. Strickland said as much when he told Congress recently that Toyota's rate of complaints was "unremarkable."
And for driver error to be the likely culprit, a simple statistical review of complaint data should show a relatively uniform distribution across automakers. But our review of NHTSA data showed variations in complaints by manufacturer. While human error may be a factor, it's not the only cause.
Theories about sudden acceleration broadly fall into four categories: First, some sort of electrical interference or computer glitch. Second, a general mechanical failure, such as a sticky throttle. Third, design factors such as floor mats (meaning that the vehicle was functioning correctly, but a design lapse increased the chance of an incident). Fourth, driver error, also known as pedal misapplication.
We tried to re-create the circumstances surrounding some recent incidents. We took the highest-horsepower Toyota Camry to the test track to see whether the brakes could stop a runaway vehicle -- which they can. Next we looked at the Toyota Prius. We found that when the vehicle is accelerating, a simple tap of the transmission shifter into neutral disengages the throttle, and the vehicle coasts to a halt -- even if the brakes are not applied.
What does all this mean? As our testing confirms and government regulators and Toyota have said recently, it is extremely difficult to re-create the out-of-control incidents being reported. Reports on Monday regarding a runaway Prius in San Diego were once again inconclusive. It is impossible to rule out any possibilities: electrical, mechanical, design or driver-related.
So where do we go from here? The Transportation Department and NHTSA should take the lead in coordinating an effort that involves all manufacturers. Perhaps by sharing data and working collaboratively, they can find an answer that working individually has rendered elusive.
We need to focus on the right problem. Toyota's embarrassment about communication lapses and likely government regulatory fixes miss the point. Our roads will be safer when the root cause of unintended acceleration is known.
The case for saving property and lives should be obvious. But there is another risk for consumers: Toyota's legal bill for unintended-acceleration cases will be in the billions. Soon enough, entrepreneurial lawyers will realize that other car companies are vulnerable. And who ends up covering this tab? Future car buyers -- in the form of higher prices.
The writer is chief executive of Edmunds.com, which recently announced a competition with a cash prize for anyone who can demonstrate in a verifiable manner the reason for unintended acceleration.
Bob Baker of Lexus/Toyota may have some legal problems regarding their actions/lack of actions since they own/rented that Lexus..
Sorry, my vehicle is a RAV4 w rubber all weather mats. Not issue at all.
I have heard that these tests cannot be used in court, but they certainly could be used in the court of public opinion.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Well, my vehicle was made in Japan. Guess that may eliminate my auto. Does Canada have good national - active safety agency system??
Any ideas, other suggestions??
I really don't want to say anything bad about this poor family. I don't understand all of what happened. None of us do.
You do mention evidence. Yikes - that is another question to all of this. Toyota has actually been quite secretive about their EDR's or black box. Toyota said they could not read Saylors data. But be aware they have done this frequently They only had one reader - only proprietary they claim - they insist they are only ones allowed to read. Must be done and read byToyota only.
Here in US these system have been around since late 1970's. Toyota has history of withholding information, requiring a court order, making contradicting statements on what black box records and if/when gotten many times they leave columns blank. And US has no laws as auto manufacturers have fought against. Is to be law 9/01/2012. American manufacturers now do have on cars and use a Bosch system which can be read by any third party, police, etc.NHTSA has info too. For some reason Japanese manufacturers have been quite secretive. Hope law will change this approach, but - how can it take 12 years to get it implemented?
Up here we have big winter mats that hold enough melted snow that if you got broken down you would have enough water for 3 days. People use them for cruise control by shoving them against the gas pedals to hold their cars at one speed and dig their heels in and pull back on them when they want to slow down.
Stanford is presently researching computerized steering.
They should be especially proud of the fact that all their previous stockholders were left holding the bag with worthless stock. They sure did right by them. Now they are owned by taxpayers and the Union. I see a bright future.
How is that kool ade tasting?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I could care less about their bankruptcy and all that other political mumbo-jumbo. I only care about the cars and they are darn fine cars - especially Buicks and Cadillacs!
Besides, why are we even talking about GM here? Isn't this a Toyota forum?
Don't ask me, you are the one that brought it up by bragging on your 70's Buick!! It seems some folks will settle for anything and are easy to please.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Here is report I just came across that is interesting. Report says per Toyota manuel - donot shift into "N", "P", "R" while care is moving. Doing so may cause the engine brake not to operate properly and lead to an accident.
Do not turn the hybrid system off while driving. The power steering and brake actuator will not operate properly if the hybrid system is not operating.”
Appears directions right in Toyota Prius manuel. And more now more info is getting brought out.
If all is factual, which it appears it may be - poor owners could really be confused.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/03/15/how-do-you-stop-a-toyota-hybrid-myth-v-- fact/
These are complaints to NHTSA (who the devil complains to NHTSA? what are they going to do? but anyway - its data and all manufacturers are represented. I suspect that bad press results in even more complaints for some companies so I'd take these numbers with a grain of salt)
In the far right column are number of incidents per 100000 vehicles sold - far more useful than just Number of complaints - If I sell 10 times more cars than you I should have ten times the complaints all other things being equal.
It also lists vehicles as a percentage of the market. It is only reporting on UA and SUA complalints. As you will see as you change the years involved Toyota does NOT have the highest number of complaints per 100,000 vehicles, I would put them in about 4th or 5th place overall, Volkswagen-Audi is by far the worst followed closely by Suzuki and Jaguar. Toyota and BMW are vying for 4th and 5th place. In addition, Toyota complaints are probably the most consistent year to year - Other manufacturers are WAY up one year and down the next.
Toyota, including its Toyota, Lexus and Scion brands, had 1,133 consumer complaints of unintended acceleration filed with NHTSA through Feb. 3. The complaints cover model years 2005 to 2010. Toyota's number of complaints for unintended acceleration exceeds similar complaints for the other Big Six manufacturers combined.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyota-leads-in-nhtsa-unintended-acceleratio- n-complaints-edmundscom-analysis-shows.html
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/02/toyota-critic-safety-research-strateg- ies-founder-admits-report-funding-came-from-firms-suing-toyota.html
But in any case If this really does come from a Prius Manual, Toyota needs to issue some clarification about emergency operations.
Who would you suggest consumers complain to when the dealer tells you the car is fine? When you know it is not. Complaining to Toyota is like P***ing into the wind. They just toss your complaint in the round file. When a celebrity like the Woz, that has probably sold more Prius through his network of followers than any salesman, cannot get any response from Toyota, how does a regular owner have a chance?
Sadly the NHTSA has been somewhat lax in pursuing Toyota over the last decade. Now all that is changed. Toyota's lying and deception are out for all to see.
You need to go back and dig deeper into the ODI. There are at least 136 complaints of UA and possibly 170 complaints on the 2009 Camry. You have to look at unknown and brakes as well. Many people consider it a braking problem when they cannot stop their car. You should compare it to the 2009 Malibu. Which has ZERO complaints of UA or brakes not stopping the car. Toyota has a serious problem with their DBW design. Hiring PR people will not fix their problems.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/results.cfm
Even Consumer Reports (my father has a subscription) says they love driving the Caddys and want to Recommend them, but the poor reliability restricts their ability to Recommend them and they don't. Would you like me to send you the issues with this statement?
Just kidding, go to the library.
John
"Jan 5, 2010 ... Cadillac CTS Tops CR Tests of Luxury Sedans but Reliability Remains an Issue. "
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I find it interesting that motor vehicle deaths have been declining for the first time in history in the USA, mostly because of passive restraint systems and better crumple zones. So the same technology curve that has resulted in lower mortality is also being blamed for these SUA events. I think there is something going on with at least some of these cars but as yet, I don't know what it is. It is the proverbial needle in a haystack.
At any rate, it is always nice to see someone who is cool and logical and knows how to reason properly.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But then - why aren't manufacturers obtaining these solid proven SUA/UA vehicles to study?? Especially those that have multiple episodes. This would be the most apparent logical management approach.
But - wait - legal liability starts entering picture possibly if they would do this. Corporate admission they have a problem can create legal liability fault. Corporations will/must legally protect themselves. How they protect themselves is not always fair. Sometimes it is. US law provides more protection to a corporation than to the average US citizen. Legal system is complex. Can be good and bad. Lawyers usually benefit more than the consumers suing. Winning a settlement in court does not mean a consumer will get paid. Court does not pursue collection. This is up to consumer to do. More costs, etc. Collection is another whole legal process. Most consumers are aware of the risks, and decide not to pursue.
I have hopes some laws will be implemeted to help make US citizens safer as a result of all that has happened. Not just Toyota, other manufacturers too. Toyota does have a higher problem per the data studies published. Some others re up in stats too. Hope will be across the board safety mechanisms implemented..
On that we agree. I have no problem with your desire to see an accurate accounting of problems. The fact is the Feds are inept at doing a good job at anything. So the NHTSA is controlled by the same lobby forces that run the rest of our government. Every other entity that keeps track have one agenda or another. So who do you trust?