Yes, the Toyota PR people must be doing a fine job as usual. Toyota sales are up and things are looking good for the future. I guess building great cars has nothing to do with it.
If PR could do all that I wonder why Chrysler and GM don't hire some good PR folks? In their case I guess building crappy cars has nothing to do with them going bankrupt, it was just bad PR !!
All the nay-sers have sunk into their holes again. Now they are back to comparing Avalon to Camary. However saw the 2011 Avalon nice but not worth trading in my 2009 for it. Toyota has kept price Limited close to 2009 while giving few more features
One of the guys doing a lot of the Toyota bashing admitted that he wants his Ford stock to go up at the expense of Toyota ! Kind of sad if he thinks his posts are going to make any difference !!
LOL, you are probably right about those PR folks !!
Ford's got a pretty nice all-new Explorer that should help his Ford stock immensely.
Ford is doing very well for sure. They have top of the line across the line. Edge, Escape, Explorer, Expedition and my favorite the Flex. Toyota has nothing on that lineup. If you like surging at stop lights and the crap shoot for SUA, buy Toyota by all means. If you want well designed and engineered vehicles, GO FORD..... :shades:
PS Ford stock has pushed my 401K above the highs of 2007.
I hope you're diversified because this Ford stock thing won't go on forever. However, I do appreciate the great job the current ford management has done. Just wonder how the UAW will try to screw it up in negotiations down the road?
The Flex reminds me of a squashed loaf of bread with wheels. The new Exploder is just about as bad as it is just a Flex underneath.
I don't know how someone could talk about Toyota's causing accidents while praising the Flex and Explorer when the Explorer has the worst record in history of suddenly going belly up and killing folks.
Don't count me as an Explorer fan. I test drove one way the heck back in 94 and hated it. I've had more recent offerings as rentals and they did nothing for me.
I think for the Flex you have to be the sort that likes retro looks. Looks like you took a 50s Ford wagon and made it bigger. I like the looks of PT Cruisers and HHRs as well so that's where that is coming from.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I think about bailing every day on Ford Stock. I got in at $1.76 and don't want to be greedy. I would not consider Toyota stock if I did bail out. I don't trust the company to do right by their customers or their stockholders. I don't follow any company blindly. Many that have done that with Toyota have gotten burned.
Based on sales the first half of this year Ford has sold 225K SUVs and Toyota has sold 113K SUVs. So Ford sells 2 SUVs for every one Toyota sells. And that was the best part of the market for Toyota. I don't believe it is the fear of SUA that has hurt Toyota sales. It is their being caught in so many lies & deception.
I agree with the point that you are making. I had an "old Explorer" which was replaced about 8 years ago when I bought a Sequoia. After I put a limited slip differential in the rear end of the Explorer it was fairly good on the beach, only getting stuck once or twice a season. At least it was on a truck platform. The new Explorer being on a car platform, I don't think it would be wise to take it off road for any reason, even with "AWD".
The old Explorer, although inferior in off road function, could be considered to be in the same category as the 4Runner.. The new Explorer can nolonger follow the 4Runner off the road. It will be functionally like a Highlander. Numbers sold do not change how a vehicle functions.(competes) The Explorer certainly wins the vehicles sold competition both then and probably in the future in it's new category.
Some of us are more than capable of adding a brake override circuit. A simple relay that opens the fuel pump circuit and is energized by the e-brake microswitch.
I suspect it might be worth adding to any "new" vehicle.
I don't think, seriously, that being on a "car" platform represents any sort of real problem, off road or on.
"..It will be functionally like a highlander.."
Not for the moment, for now the 2011 Explorer will have a much more functional F/awd system than has the current HL. But I expect that by the next model year the HL will have adopted the new Explorer's F/awd system design, also now already used in the Sienna, Venza, Escape, Tribute, etc.
By the way, just how did this 2011 Explorer thread get over "here".
The problem for toyota is they have not improved like Ford has. If you take a look at the IIHS statistics the latest data has the toyota Camry above average on insurance claims and the Ford Explorer well below average for the same. That includes a much better chance of survival in a collision driving the Explorer. That is before you factor in the unknown chance of SUA, which Toyota is King of the UA.
Lets not forget that while the Explorer is (was) RWD the Camry is a patently UNSAFE FWD vehicle. Makes the Explorer a much more stable platform, more benign handling, on adverse roadbed conditions.
Under the Insurance Institute's TOP SAFETY PICKS, for Mid Size SUVS, I don't see the Explorer listed at all, but I do see the Lexus RX, the Toyota Venza, and the Toyota Highlander !
Also wwest, nearly all the top safety picks are either front wheel drive or all wheel drive. Very, very few rear wheel drive cars made the list.
Not sure which chart you are looking at. The RX has a 103 rating which is worse than average for the segment lux SUVs. While the Explorer 4WD has a 73 cost rating. Far better the average. The Camry is also rated poor for their group. If you are going by crash test ratings. Good luck when you get hit in a Camry by a large PU truck. The only ratings that count are how people fared in actual accidents. The charts I posted give you that information to compare.
can you back that up? even through the rollover 'era' it had a great overall safety record. check the congressional records of the hearings. have you gotten your recall letter(s) yet?
NHTSA and whomever else compiles safety data somehow overlooks SUA when they figure up toyota safety particulars. Humm. Nasty business practices are existing all over.
Apparently you don't know how to read your own chart. Insurance costs don't have much to do with passenger safety. It is the cost to repair the vehicle. Of course it costs more to repair a Lexus than an Explorer. You should know that without looking at a chart.
If you want back up do your own research. Surely you know how to google.
We should be getting a recall notice on the 07 LX sometime in August on the steering column retaining clamp or something like that. We haven't had any problems for the 38,000 miles we've driven the truck so far. If only Ford was that conscientious a lot of lives would have been saved.
that's my point. the other brands that have been the subject of derision over the years for their recalls are just the same. the actual affected vehicles are very few. the numbers of them recalled can be large due to the number sold. looking at the number of deaths, there are a lots more Fords out there than Toyota's, so of course the raw number of deaths are going to be higher. the Ford/Firestone recall and how it was handled, was the catalyst for the response to these multi brand recalls that have happened since then. Toy/Lex is just another brand having to march to that same drummer now.
> Gagrice, congrats on your 401k. If you have a lot of stock, might be a good time to sell some and lighten up and diversify more. Take it from an "old timer," diversification is much safer. Ford has wonderful products now, but has a huge, huge debt facing it in the future. Also, the auto union hates to see them making too much money and may go after them. Look for trouble there in the future. Some smart people have said the only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt when GM did is because they had larger lines of credit, but they still gotta pay it back. Index funds are the way to go. For more info, read "A Random Walk Down Wall Street." JMHO, Denny
I appreciate the advice. Ford is less than 10% of my IRA. My largest holding is FLPSX which has 10 year 10% average. I have considered dumping Ford as it seems greedy to hang on to it. Move more toward bond funds the closer I get to being forced to take some out.
I don't plan to buy any TM. How many more recalls will surface now that toyota is being watched closely?
I've been mostly not bothering taking sides in here because it's gotten like the Hyundai in the luxury market thread - hot opinions but no changing minds.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
> don't plan to buy any TM. How many more recalls will surface now that toyota is being watched closely?
It's stuff like this that has been surfacing in the toyota discussions elsewhere on Edmunds that should create angst in anyone investing in toyota with the ADRs or buying the vehicle:
"Took my 2007 Camry SE (17,600 miles) to Toyota dealer service today. When going down a steep hill at freeway speeds and applying brakes, steering wheel shakes and car starts shuddering. Serviceman say probably rotors. I say "already?" Calls later and tells me a new, improved brake pad has been developed which he recommends replacing. I asked when "new, improved" pad was available? Answer: JUNE 2009. Why am I only hearing about it now that my warranty expired 4 months ago? It was on a technical bulletin but not a safety issue so they don't have to inform customers. Oh well, they don't tell us when it's a safety issue until xxxxxpeople die, right? $58. for pads on front; $175 labor; $58 pads on back $175 labor. This is my 6th and last Toyota. Please don't tell me to go to another dealer; 60 miles down steep hills. Just wanted to post this for others and the guy who had his rotors repaired 9 times. BEWARE. Leaving here now to go buy a new car. Any suggestions????? "
This is occurring in the toyota discussions more and more along with the Honda discussions on Odyssey trans problems (surprise?) and in VCM discussions.
The source of the article is 93 And Counting Michael Fumento, 07.30.10, 07:40 AM EDT Forbes Asia Magazine dated August 09, 2010 \
Hmmmm. An Asian-oriented magazine. I wonder what side he will take? Hmmmm.
Also, it's funny to have a media magazine criticizing the media for not fact-checking? Where were they on "fact checking" during the last prez campaign!?
That article kind of pinpoints the fact that two sides are being taken by the media. Those that want to sell more papers are negative about Toyota. Those that want to sell Toyota advertising are biased in favor of Toyota. I think the findings by the Canadian NHTSA, is more telling than the article leaked to the WSJ and on to hundreds of other media sources.
Since March, the agency has examined 40 Toyota vehicles where unintended acceleration was cited as the cause of an accident, Mr. Person said. NHTSA determined 23 of the vehicles had accelerated suddenly, Mr. Person said.
In all 23, he added, the vehicles' electronic data recorders or black boxes showed the car's throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the moment of impact, suggesting the drivers mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake, Mr. Person said.
"The agency has for too long ignored what I believe is the root cause of these unintended acceleration cases," he said. "It's driver error. It's pedal misapplication and that's what this data shows."
Mr. Person said he believes Transportation Department officials are "sitting on" this data because it could revive criticism that NHTSA is too close to the auto maker and has not looked hard enough for electrical flaws in Toyota vehicles.
"It has become very political. There is a lot of anger towards Toyota," Mr. Person said. Transportation officials "are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles."
There are at least 4 high profile SUA, UA, incidents, long term incidents, that we are aware of. Those 4 cannot be explained away by the floor mat issue nor the brake/gas pedal confusion. Until NHTSA finds a cause for those it is probably needless to release the report.
This piece from WSJ is to try and get back some of their credibility. It sounds like this retired NHTSA leaked them the info. And now WSJ needs to cover their behinds. So how much did Mr Person get for the erroneous information? He cannot be stupid enough to leak it for free.
A Transportation Department spokeswoman, Olivia Alair, said NHTSA is still reviewing data from the Toyota vehicles the agency is examining. "Its review is not yet complete. The investigation remains ongoing," she said.
A Toyota spokesman declined to comment. A NHTSA spokeswoman did not respond to phone calls and an email seeking comment.
At the time of his retirement, Mr. Person, 67 years old, was chief of NHTSA's Recall Management Division, which is part of the agency's Office of Defects Investigation. He said he was briefed on the agency's probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said Toyota vehicles suddenly accelerated on their own, and said he offered his input on the matter to investigators.
Ms. Alair said Mr. Person "was not involved in any aspect of the ongoing investigation into unintended acceleration."
Mr. Person said he retired in good standing with the agency. Ms. Alair said she could not comment on personnel matters.
Maybe Person was forced into retirement for all the previous screw ups with letting Toyota off the hook on recalls. That was his department. I wonder if his Civil Service retirement will be as much as he gets from Toyota for past favors.
>It's funny to see that NHTSA can't find a single valid incident so far to be at Toyota's fault.
The statements that they can't find anything recorded in their sorry excuse of an event recorder doesn't mean anything. The last 3 crashes of my Pentium 4 desktop showed no records in the computer's own memory as to the actual cause. It did tell me that it had crashed, however, which is what the toyota and NHSTA folks are saying.
The fact that the computer doesn't show the brakes were applied doesn't surprise me a bit. Early on that was a complaint: applying the brakes had no effect because the car was hell bent on accelerating. Why should I think the computer record would show the pedal was applied while the accelerator was fully applied--at least in the car computer's info.
I find it very interesting that the Toyota diagnostic program does not record a WOT condition as a fault code. Yet Toyota claims all kinds of wild assertions about what the EDR is showing. Including 250 on and off depressions of the brakes while the throttle of the Sikes car was wide open. This without a crash to save the data. Toyota knows that No one in the Federal Government is smart enough to refute their claims. So they can say what they want about any given Toyota incident, without fear of being caught.
The question I want to see answered, will they pull the wool over the Jury's eyes as they have with so many media people?
We need to go by cold facts. If by now there is only 4 SUA-UA proved cases per gazillion manufactured Toyota vehicles there is only one explanation behind SUA- UA publicity and whole anti - T. compain, it's a political one. I don't think NHTSA leak is unintended, they just don't have anything to show us. Time will tell...
Comments
If PR could do all that I wonder why Chrysler and GM don't hire some good PR folks? In their case I guess building crappy cars has nothing to do with them going bankrupt, it was just bad PR !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
nice but not worth trading in my 2009 for it. Toyota has kept price Limited close to 2009 while giving few more features
They did hire them, but they're all on here posting bad things about Toyotas.
LOL, you are probably right about those PR folks !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ford is doing very well for sure. They have top of the line across the line. Edge, Escape, Explorer, Expedition and my favorite the Flex. Toyota has nothing on that lineup. If you like surging at stop lights and the crap shoot for SUA, buy Toyota by all means. If you want well designed and engineered vehicles, GO FORD..... :shades:
PS
Ford stock has pushed my 401K above the highs of 2007.
I don't know how someone could talk about Toyota's causing accidents while praising the Flex and Explorer when the Explorer has the worst record in history of suddenly going belly up and killing folks.
Are your memories that short?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think for the Flex you have to be the sort that likes retro looks. Looks like you took a 50s Ford wagon and made it bigger. I like the looks of PT Cruisers and HHRs as well so that's where that is coming from.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Just another Ford Mistook.
The old Explorer, although inferior in off road function, could be considered to be in the same category as the 4Runner.. The new Explorer can nolonger follow the 4Runner off the road. It will be functionally like a Highlander. Numbers sold do not change how a vehicle functions.(competes) The Explorer certainly wins the vehicles sold competition both then and probably in the future in it's new category.
I suspect it might be worth adding to any "new" vehicle.
"..It will be functionally like a highlander.."
Not for the moment, for now the 2011 Explorer will have a much more functional F/awd system than has the current HL. But I expect that by the next model year the HL will have adopted the new Explorer's F/awd system design, also now already used in the Sienna, Venza, Escape, Tribute, etc.
By the way, just how did this 2011 Explorer thread get over "here".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y=2006-2008&cls=2
Under the Insurance Institute's TOP SAFETY PICKS, for Mid Size SUVS, I don't see the Explorer listed at all, but I do see the Lexus RX, the Toyota Venza, and the Toyota Highlander !
Also wwest, nearly all the top safety picks are either front wheel drive or all wheel drive. Very, very few rear wheel drive cars made the list.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
have you gotten your recall letter(s) yet?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
We should be getting a recall notice on the 07 LX sometime in August on the steering column retaining clamp or something like that. We haven't had any problems for the 38,000 miles we've driven the truck so far. If only Ford was that conscientious a lot of lives would have been saved.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
the numbers of them recalled can be large due to the number sold.
looking at the number of deaths, there are a lots more Fords out there than Toyota's, so of course the raw number of deaths are going to be higher.
the Ford/Firestone recall and how it was handled, was the catalyst for the response to these multi brand recalls that have happened since then.
Toy/Lex is just another brand having to march to that same drummer now.
Gagrice, congrats on your 401k. If you have a lot of stock, might be a good time to sell some and lighten up and diversify more. Take it from an "old timer," diversification is much safer. Ford has wonderful products now, but has a huge, huge debt facing it in the future. Also, the auto union hates to see them making too much money and may go after them. Look for trouble there in the future. Some smart people have said the only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt when GM did is because they had larger lines of credit, but they still gotta pay it back. Index funds are the way to go. For more info, read "A Random Walk Down Wall Street."
JMHO, Denny
I don't plan to buy any TM. How many more recalls will surface now that toyota is being watched closely?
I've been mostly not bothering taking sides in here because it's gotten like the Hyundai in the luxury market thread - hot opinions but no changing minds.
It's stuff like this that has been surfacing in the toyota discussions elsewhere on Edmunds that should create angst in anyone investing in toyota with the ADRs or buying the vehicle:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c6927/5175#MSG5175
"Took my 2007 Camry SE (17,600 miles) to Toyota dealer service today.
When going down a steep hill at freeway speeds and applying brakes, steering wheel shakes and car starts shuddering. Serviceman say probably rotors.
I say "already?" Calls later and tells me a new, improved brake pad has been developed which he recommends replacing. I asked when "new, improved" pad was available? Answer: JUNE 2009. Why am I only hearing about it now that my warranty expired 4 months ago? It was on a technical bulletin but not a safety
issue so they don't have to inform customers. Oh well, they don't tell us when it's a safety issue until xxxxxpeople die, right? $58. for pads on front; $175 labor;
$58 pads on back $175 labor. This is my 6th and last Toyota.
Please don't tell me to go to another dealer; 60 miles down steep hills.
Just wanted to post this for others and the guy who had his rotors repaired 9 times. BEWARE.
Leaving here now to go buy a new car. Any suggestions????? "
This is occurring in the toyota discussions more and more along with the Honda discussions on Odyssey trans problems (surprise?) and in VCM discussions.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The source of the article is
93 And Counting
Michael Fumento, 07.30.10, 07:40 AM EDT
Forbes Asia Magazine dated August 09, 2010 \
Hmmmm. An Asian-oriented magazine. I wonder what side he will take? Hmmmm.
Also, it's funny to have a media magazine criticizing the media for not fact-checking? Where were they on "fact checking" during the last prez campaign!?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Haaa, you think that happens anywhere on the forums?
This was a good pair of stories:
Were we all wrong about Toyota? (smdp.com)
That was followed by the same columist writing this blog five days later:
WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER MISLEADS READERS, NPR AND US!
That was going to be my next post!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Haaa, you think that happens anywhere on the forums?
No.. Couldn't be.
I just thing some topics seem to have it in spades. This is one of them. The luxury Hyundai thread is another classic.
I agree on how the media will slant things depending on which side their bread is buttered.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
http://www.carspace.com/sandman_6472
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Release of Toyota Documents Blocked, Ex-Official Says
Since March, the agency has examined 40 Toyota vehicles where unintended acceleration was cited as the cause of an accident, Mr. Person said. NHTSA determined 23 of the vehicles had accelerated suddenly, Mr. Person said.
In all 23, he added, the vehicles' electronic data recorders or black boxes showed the car's throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the moment of impact, suggesting the drivers mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake, Mr. Person said.
"The agency has for too long ignored what I believe is the root cause of these unintended acceleration cases," he said. "It's driver error. It's pedal misapplication and that's what this data shows."
Mr. Person said he believes Transportation Department officials are "sitting on" this data because it could revive criticism that NHTSA is too close to the auto maker and has not looked hard enough for electrical flaws in Toyota vehicles.
"It has become very political. There is a lot of anger towards Toyota," Mr. Person said. Transportation officials "are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles."
A Transportation Department spokeswoman, Olivia Alair, said NHTSA is still reviewing data from the Toyota vehicles the agency is examining. "Its review is not yet complete. The investigation remains ongoing," she said.
A Toyota spokesman declined to comment. A NHTSA spokeswoman did not respond to phone calls and an email seeking comment.
At the time of his retirement, Mr. Person, 67 years old, was chief of NHTSA's Recall Management Division, which is part of the agency's Office of Defects Investigation. He said he was briefed on the agency's probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said Toyota vehicles suddenly accelerated on their own, and said he offered his input on the matter to investigators.
Ms. Alair said Mr. Person "was not involved in any aspect of the ongoing investigation into unintended acceleration."
Mr. Person said he retired in good standing with the agency. Ms. Alair said she could not comment on personnel matters.
Maybe Person was forced into retirement for all the previous screw ups with letting Toyota off the hook on recalls. That was his department. I wonder if his Civil Service retirement will be as much as he gets from Toyota for past favors.
The statements that they can't find anything recorded in their sorry excuse of an event recorder doesn't mean anything. The last 3 crashes of my Pentium 4 desktop showed no records in the computer's own memory as to the actual cause. It did tell me that it had crashed, however, which is what the toyota and NHSTA folks are saying.
The fact that the computer doesn't show the brakes were applied doesn't surprise me a bit. Early on that was a complaint: applying the brakes had no effect because the car was hell bent on accelerating. Why should I think the computer record would show the pedal was applied while the accelerator was fully applied--at least in the car computer's info.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The question I want to see answered, will they pull the wool over the Jury's eyes as they have with so many media people?