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the software and start over and drive like the guy who does not have the problem,the posters stating they have had numerous cars over the years and never had this problem does
not make any sense unless they have had drive by wire transmissions in these vehicles.
One thing I have noticed after reading every post on the Avalon is some of us will go out of our way to simulate the
lurch/hesitation but won't tweek our driving habits to stop
the lurch.
In order for me to absolutely avoid any hesitation with the throttle...I have to slllooowwwlly step on the gas until it "catches" to make a smooth start sometimes. So yeah. I can change my driving habit as far as that's concerned. However, when you need to be a little more than just ever so gently applying gas, that’s when it hesitates and or lurches. That however is a different issue than the transmission issues I experience mostly on the highway.
As an example and as i sort of already mentioned, I had to slow down on the highway...then traffic started moving so i stepped on the gas...not hard just to keep up with traffic....but instead..the engine revved to like 3k rpm, then suddenly it was like the transmission dropped into gear and lurched forward....almost like it was stuck in-between gears or something. I don't think changing driving habits will change the behavior i experienced with the transmission. The one other time this happened it was less violent....instead of it jamming into gear..it just revved at 3k rpm and then slowly engaged...but nonetheless when you step on the gas it should go, not hesitate or lurch. I don't care what anyone says it isn't normal. The problem is, how do you get toyota to fix it if they keep saying it's normal?
My girlfriend has a 2002 maxima with the 3.5 liter and she doesn't have throttle lag or transmission lurching and hesitation....neither does my friend with his 2004 maxima. Nor did I have the issue with my 2000 avalon .
I mean give me a break. For those who don't have issues, consider yourself lucky..I don’t think people are fabricating stories to hurt Toyota’s reputation, Toyota is doing it themselves. There have already been some articles in various news papers about the complaints. Also an article on http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060501/FREE/60501002/1024/L- ATESTNEWS
Don’t get me wrong, I love Toyota’s reliability, but I dunno, something has gone array with Toyota next time I might get a Nissan or another brand unless Toyota can step up to the plate
Sorry about you hesitation problems, I am sure it must be frustrating.
Have you tried gasoline at a different station ? This might take more than one tank.
Have you tried putting an additive in your fuel to remove excess water?
As a last resort, the fuel filter may be clogged. But that shouldn't happen with so few of miles.
Anyway sorry for your problem, good luck.
MidCow
However, when you need to be a little more than just ever so gently applying gas, that’s when it hesitates and or lurches.
This is an important point for those that think they can and should merely adapt to the way the car responds and be trained by the vehicle to drive in a different way, perhaps anticipating and mitigating these behaviors manually.
No amount of conscious effort to avoid the hesitation / learching behaviors is going to work in your favor when you instinctively request response by getting on the accelerator because of an unforseen situation that presents itself..
Our brains have some very deep cause/effect learning and timing/estimation which are not processed on the same conscious level as this "novel" procedural training during periods you would need it.
In other words, your not likely to execute a "new way" of commanding a change in your vehicle's speed when performing a merge, emergency evasive procedure like a lane change, a left-turn with speeding oncomming traffic etc.
Even if you could, slowly modulating the accelerator to avoid hesitation is going to delay the change of speed needed for you to avoid contact with another vehicle.
So when you demand and rely on the vehicle responsiveness, it just has to be there - hesitation in the name of Fuel Economy or Transmission Part Life Longevity (which I don't believe either is the case since some people cannot even duplicate the problems some drivers are experiencing - their vehicle operation if flawless) is a VERY low-priority engineering criteria which would have to be over-ridden or non-existant.
Some would say this wouldn't be a safety issue, but that doesn't seem genuine at all to believe it.
Trust me, your brain is gonna waste additional time trying to reconcile the fact that the cause/effect didn't happen when you instinctively floored the accelerator and asked for max power, even though you know intellectually why this is so based on your re-training by the vehicle.
That's precious time lost at the worst possible moment.
Were I in your place I would practice releasing the accelerator pedal quickly, fully, and completely when my intent is to coast down to a lower speed, or coast down to a stop. Even the slightest pressure remaining on the accelerator pedal, or even a "slow" release (the engine/transaxle ECU makes these decisions in microseconds) might result in an unintended, inadvertent, upshift.
And please keep in mind that with the advent of DBW the "return" pressure of the spring used to raise the accelerator pedal back to the neutral position will be much lighter, making it much easier to have a slight down movement of the pedal absent-mindedly.
That's likely why the suggestion of applying one's foot higher on the pedal seems to have worked for at least some of you, that takes more foot pressure for a given position of the pedal.
Also keep in mind the number of cars you see daily driving along with their brake lights illuminated due to their foot resting lightly on the brake pedal.
Don't be one of "them", remove your foot completely from the accelerator pedal when you wish to coast down, NOT cruise.
It is NOT my intent to excuse Toyota or Lexus in any way, just an effort to help those that might be inadvertently endangering themselves and others as a result of Toyota/lexus' design mistake.
He did end up getting rid of his car - and replaced it - with a Nissan! There is no doubt that Toyota does have its slip showing a bit these days - and not only with Avalons.
I would suspect that Toyota would recall/repair (they certainly are not lacking for funds) - if only they knew how to fix it...
Way back when cars and trucks cost less than $2,00 bucks or so, we would test the manual and automatic transmissions by putting the bumper up against a tree and put the gearshift in low. When we pressed the accelerator about one forth way and if the engine didn't stall there were problems with a slipping clutch or transmission. I am not suggesting we do this with the avalon as we might need a tow truck to take it away.
Heavy traffic driving also shows hesitation when trying to start out smooth on a great number of times.
I encountered a simple,small, dumb problem with the avalon brake petal. Every time I wear white tennis shoes I get a big black spot on the side of my shoe. This must be from crossiong back and forth from the accelerator and the brake. While no big thing, this does indicate a cheaper type of rubber.
I have been following the forum since early 2005 and there have been many comments about the transmission. The hesitation is a small matter but the total transmission slipping and not going in gear properly could or can get someone hurt. The car is expected to respond when pulling on to a highway or attempting to pass. I am surprised toyota has not commented more or done more.
As far as our Avalon experience goes, there is no lagging quality issue, but I cannot dispute that others may not agree. Our new Avalon is problem free, and I honestly believe we have provided every opportunity to prove otherwise. That is not to say that a few are experiencing problems, and it must be frustrating for them.
However I do not believe, as suggested by some of you, that these problems are widespread, or typical of the product overall. There is simply too much evidence to the contrary. One just has to look at the number of of positive road test reviews out there. I really didn't find a single review that mentioned hesitation as an issue with these cars, altho' I must admit I didn't look at every one and there may very well be a mention of it somewhwere, but I'm willing to bet there aren't many mentions.
I am pleased to say that we are thoroughly enjoying our stay in Nova Scotia, and our new Avalon is doing yeoman service en route. I encourage any of the adventurous of you to visit this place. The people here are extra friendly and hospitable, and the culture is delightfully refreshing, not to mention picturesque scenery which is the frosting on the cake!
Thanks,
Geo123
Bob
Anyway, I for some reason don't think calling Toyota and putting a claim in will do too much, but we'll see. I don't need practice on how to step on my gas pedal so the trasmission performs smoothly. It's a 30k$ car....if I wanted a manual transmission I would have bought one..:)
then ask them to provide you detailed documentation on the following:
1). the exact diagnostic which is prescribed for this situation.
2). the criteria for determining there is or is not a problem
3). how the dealership is to document the results.
have them provide this to you in writing.
bet they won't do it.
Sorry for the lengthy post but this will be my last posting on this subject. For those of you that think that some of us don’t know how to drive or are hired by other vendors to ruin the reputation of Toyota, I wish to give you an update that includes an admission of guilt by the Toyota representative. I was frustrated and decided to go through the official dispute process. Well, we had our hearing on 8/4 and after it was over my husband and I looked at each and both uttered at the same time “this was a waste”. I presented my case which consisted of verbally stating what was in the documentation that I had already sent to NCDS. Then the Toyota representative was given an opportunity to give his side of the story. He started off by apologizing because he is aware of exactly what the behavior is and it is a KNOWN, SCATTERED ISSUE throughout the Toyota (and Lexus) line with NO fix. So, consider yourself lucky if you have been spared from this problem. He went into about ½ hour of technical explanation telling us about the problem and why they have no fix for it. Since this transmission is supposed to adapt itself to someone’s driving habits, there is no real way to test it. It can and does behave differently for everyone. Yes, they have created a monster! So, given his explanation, my only resolution to this case would be a buy back. He said that the only way that Toyota would agree to that would be if it were a safety hazard; they consider this problem to be an annoyance. The mediator asked a couple of questions and took just a few lines of notes. He didn’t seem very interested. The decision came through the mail yesterday and, as we predicted, we lost because we could not prove that it was a safety issue. Well, to prove that I would have to get into an accident and it would have to be proven that the transmission was the cause. I have to say that I’m not really anxious to prove that! I am glad that we did pursue it because if we hadn’t, we would have always wondered whether or not we would have won. So, I will be selling the car because, yes, it is an annoyance and Toyota has no idea when or if there will be a fix. I, like so many other people, bought a Toyota product based on their past reputation. Eventually, issues like this will affect their current reputation. Thanks to all who provided me with feedback and I hope that this will end any future accusations about what terrible drivers we must be.
Without the friction and possibility of slight binding of a push/pull cable to operate the throttle the accelerator pedal return spring is possibly a lot lighter than the driver's historical experience.
Given the industry modivation to improve FE via the ASL technique suggested late in the last century even a slight pressure on the accelerator, or even a slow release thereof, may be taken by the engine/transaxle ECU control firmware as an indication of the wish to enter cruise mode and that would undoubtedly result in an undesireable upshift in all of the circumstances described in the TSB.
1. When on highway doing about 60ish...had to slow down quick...to about 30mpg...then traffic picked back up to about 75-80...so i stepped on the gas to get going.. Instead...it revved to 3000rpm...then suddenly it made a thud and jammed into gear....of course the avalon has a lot of power and it was like dropping it into gear from neutral....from my teen days I know what thats like...:)
2. Sometimes when at any speed, I step on the gas...and then it revvs to 2000-3000 rpm or so...and then slowly engages the transmission instead of it dropping into gear.
3. When at a complete stop i take my foot of brake, put on gas ever so lightly, sometimes it rushes forward as if i gave it a lot of gas, other times it pauses for a second or so before it decides to engage the gas. So what happens is, when it does pause, i think...well gotta push on the pedal more...so then what happens is it wakes up...and then rushes forward. None of these are normal issues or relate to the gas pedal... I have never heard that before. Unfortunatly i never noticed any hesitation on any of the 06 avalons i test drove or this one i bought which is a 2005. Reason being is because it doesn't happen all the time.
Scared the (poo, edited to satisfy the people who don't like the S word) out of me when i was on the highway and it jammed into gear....if i was tail gating or if this was in bumper to bumper traffic, i would have rear ended the guy in front of me...
VVT engine,the variable timing has been out awhile but this
engine has it on both the intake and exhaust valves.Will be
getting an Avy Ltd soon and will eventually put in synthetic
trans fluid,I asked this before on other posts but got no
answer,has anyone ever tried using synthetic trans fluid as
a cure for the hesitation?
If the trans shifts the same after using syn atf then that
would indicate it may be the "software problem" or foot position.
This forum is misnamed, should be 'transmission hesitation', if there is one thing the Avalon engine is, it is sure as heck not 'hesitant'.
Obviously the idea of a stronger spring as a fix is far from a sure thing.
When you release the accelerator pedal the engine RPM drops to idle and that reduces the pumping capacity of the hydraulic pump within the transaxle to minimum. If the transaxle now, simultaneously, begins or goes through an upshift sequence then any "reserve" hydraulic pressure capacity might be exhausted. Now you again apply pressure to the accelerator pedal and undoubtedly the ECU will command a downshift...
AFTER THE PREVIOUSLY COMMANDED UPSHIFT HAS COMPLETED..!
How long does/will that take..?
It appears to me that the transaxle shifting insofar as the ECU is concerned runs in OPEN LOOP fashion. In other words the ECU has a software timer that must be exhausted to determine that a shift command could have been completed. IMMHO it is VERY likely that this open loop shift timer's time period is extended/adjusted based on the engine RPM at the time the shift is commanded and conditional on the ready availability of previously pressurized hydraulic fluid.
On that basis it is easy to see why a downshift in the TSB circumstances could take 1-2 "frightening" seconds.
Additionally it is my understanding that owners with "paddle" shift capability can avoid the problem by simply "toggling" a downshift at the proper time.
There is also the somewhat remote possibility that the engine/transaxle ECU has somehow inadvertently "learned" the incorrect accelerator pedal idle position.
One of the ways that might happen is with drivers that practice left foot braking. If the brakes are applied AND someone's right foot is resting lightly on the accelerator pedal often enough the ECU might then incorrectly "calibrate" that pedal position as the idle position.
I have noticed that ALL of these transaxles appear to have the "toggle" shifting capability, all of the ECU inputs are available, just not "wired". So another possible (complex) "mod" to experiment with would be to use those inputs to automatically command a downshift each time the accelerator pedal is lifted fully.
I'm not justifying what I think is an overly aggressive approach on Toyota's part (probably for FE and torque steer) - but, this is becoming a common problem with especially these 'high-tech' cars - and not just Toyotas.
As ridiculous as it sounds - the car wants to train you - much like Bill Gates has trained you, me and about 99% of the civilized world. And, if I don't like his software - tough - HE has made sure that I have to use it anyway.
If you can wade thru some of wwest's 'technobabble', what I think you'll find are some reasonable explanations and possibly even some relief/solutions for many of us Avalon owners.
Seriously doubt that the dealer will be able to do anything for you - there is a strong possibility that you know more about it than he does - which, of course, will frustrate you even more!
Some would argue we are splitting hairs.
however, i'm one of those people that think people are dealing with a non-linearity in either the accelerator pedal because of compliance or in the throttle position sensor / actuator.
but there are others claiming it's programming in the ECU/TCM for Fuel Economy or Lifing.
it appears to be a transmission problem, but it might not actually be fair to say without a doubt that is where the issue lies.
Sorry to ramble.
In my case ('05 Avalon), when I lift off the gas pedal to coast downhill or to coast to a stop, I occasionally - not always - feel a slight amount of "engine braking" for 4 or 5 seconds (and I observe the RPM needle rise by about 200 or 300 rpm); then, the needle drops back down and the car coasts normally as though it were in neutral. I have never observed/felt this on any other cars I have driven so I am wondering what exactly is occurring and should this be happening? Or is it a sign that the Avalon transmission is not operating as intended? Is the sensation I am feeling caused by the transmission shifting from "5" into "4" for those few seconds? What SHOULD be happening in automatic transmission cars whenever you take your foot off the gas? Is the transmission supposed to disengage/go into neutral, until you put your foot back on the gas pedal again? Or does it remain engaged in Drive? If it remains in Drive, is it supposed to downshift thru all the gears (5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1) until the car eventually comes to a stop? Or is this all part of the unanswered mystery about why the Avalon transmission behaves as it does?
Bob
even the hyundai azera looks more appealing at this point...The thing is right now it's a love hate relationship with my av. The av could be a perfect car..in my eyes if it weren't for these stupid issues they seem to be ignoring right now. I wonder if maybe the transmission just can't handle the horse power going through it..which is why there are these issues...who knows..
are the RPMs in your vehicle, after the initial braking feeling (where you haven't touched the brakes) going to idle?
that wouldn't be something my honda non-DBW system does. it remains in some gear appropriate for the RPM / Speed if i'm not mistaken.
I did notice that Ford eliminated the rear pump in the mid-sixties meaning you could no longer push start their automatics. The 84 'bird had an OD but no lockup clutch so it wasn't really functional. The 2000 GS300 had a surge tendency at initial throttle tip-in from a stop which made it hard to start out gently.
Soon after purchasing the 2001 AWD RX300 I began to notice the first indications of what I today believe was the earliest inception, indication of the engine/transaxle delay/hesitation symptom.
Just before coming to a full stop the RX felt as if someone had bumped me lightly from behind, as if the brakes released slightly. I also noticed that it seemed to "surge" forward at 30-45 MPH during coast down periods.
At the time I assumed both of these symptoms were the result of the designers making an effort to alleviate or eliminate the hazards of engine compression braking in a FWD vehicle.
Then recently I stumbled across a "white paper" on the internet written by Sierra Research Corporation late in the last century. Basically the white paper gave several methods through which the automotive industry could improve FE about 9.8%
The two main ones that I remember were the use of ASL, Aggressive Shift Logic, upshift the transmissions as soon as reasonably possible, and the use of the OD lockup clutch in other gear ratios provided only low engine torque was being used in that gear.
Let's suppose, for just a moment, that Lexus adopted those techniques as early as the 99 RX300. You know, the ones that are having all those problems with premature transaxle failures at 70-80,000 miles.
So, my 2001 AWD RX300 had to have the ATF changed out at 40,000 miles because it smelled and looked burned, VERY.
Look at what happens in my 2001 when I suddenly decide to accelerate as described in the Toyota TSB. My accelerator pedal is connected, HARD connected, directly to the throttle butterfly valve. When I step on the gas the engine RPM begins to RISE without delay.
Guess what that does to those clutches that are just now going through the downshift sequence and are not yet fully seated.
In 2004 the RX330 got a DBW throttle system, "to protect the drive train" and the engine/transaxle firmware was rewritten so the rise in engine RPM would be delayed until those clutches could fully and firmly seat.
Now I see indications of a cat fight between the engine control firmware developers and the developers of the transaxle control firmware. A "he said, she said", or it isn't hardware, it's software.
The engine firmware development group has said "to hell with you, solve your own problems, find that BUG within the transaxle control firmware". So the engine RPM rise is no longer delayed to accomodate the BUG within the transaxle control software.
Obviously this all started out as a method whereby FE could be improved substantially, so the EPA and CARB will now have a lot of "sway" regarding any revisions to improve driveability.
And how about the improved safety factor of these Toyota and Lexus FWD and front biased AWD vehicles as a result of fewer loss of control injury accidents caused by engine compression braking?
Has the automotive insurance industry somehow taken notice? Statistically which is worse/better for the insurance industry? How many accidents resulted from loss of directional control versus how many nowadays from engine/transaxle delay/hesitation?
My guess would be that the insurance industry would campaign for the delay/hesitation.
assuming the people that are certain the behavior doesn't exist and cannot even be purposefully duplicated know how to report their experiences truthfully, just as those complaining of the behaviors...
i'd have to say i still can't see this programming being the primary root cause.
with people changing foot position and experiencing marked improvement in operability i'm sticking with non-linearity / compliance (excessive slop) in the accelerator pedal assembly or TPS/actuator, but i'm willing to conceed your theory can contribute / exacerbate the issue.
funny how we haven't heard one dealership replacing accelerator pedal assemblies.
we've heard about transmission replacements, transmission valve body replacements, ECU/TCM reflashes.
hmmmm.
But look at how few of those you see on a weekly basis.
Is the number comparable, possibly, to the number of Toyota/Lexus FWD (or...) owners experiencing the delay/hesitation?
My point is that maybe a very small number of owners are doing something unique with the accelerator pedal or brake pedal or in combination that results in a "dead-lock", deadly embrace", between the firmware section/routines that control the engine and the one that controls the transaxle.
Over a year ago, approximately, we never heard of the engine going overspeed during these delay/hesitation episodes and now they seem to be commonplace. So the control firmware is being modified/updated in an effort to overcome the problem.
But on the other side of the coin I firmly believe that by this time the designers know exactly whats causing these episodes but are contrained from providing a fix due to regulatory (EPA, CARB, Etc.) or safety (Insurance industry) issues.
there sure are a number of folks out there that drive their automatics with 2 feet - you've got to be kidding, you really think that it is some computer nerd's responsibility to make sure that the public 'drives correctly'? Not that I think your premise is wrong because it appears that this is exactly what is beginning to happen!
what is actually is doing? that is the $1M question.
you wouldn't want to instrument your car with an OBD-II reader and laptop combo capable of capturing the hesitation or the gear hunting would you?
geesh we need someone to do this.
Wrong, DEAD wrong!
But then again, yes, if it's the driver doing it s/he will know what to expect as a result. If the road is of high traction, no sweat. On the other hand any driver who downshifts a clutchless FWD (or....) vehicle for compression braking on a slippery roadbed had better be prepared for a WILD RIDE.
The design engineers back at the factory have no idea what roadbed circumstances might exist at any given time so the only proper thing for them to do in FWD design is prevent any level of compression braking at all times.
Why do you care what the transaxle is doing, exactly? Isn't it pretty clear at this time that the transaxle is, at a minimum, upshifting to a higher gear? Maybe even into neutral but does it really matter?
The question to be answered is, why is it upshifting in a way that results in slow downshifts in just a few instances.
i.e. disengage the drive completely?
or do you want the thing to upshift?
what do you want?
now you got me REALLY curious.
The AAA is currently recommending that FWD owners/drivers practice shifting their transaxle into neutral so that can be accomplished quickly and instinctively when the actual need arises, should arise. That's probably not a bad suggestion for RWD owners provided that have no knowledge or experience of using the front traction to recover by stearing into the skid.
Insofar as just what should be done at the factory design level we must keep in mind both tasks the engineers are "charged" with. For best FE the ASL routine dictates an upshift at any and all times "deemed" reasonable or feasible. For safety reasons it would clearly be best to shift into neutral, but I'm sure we can all see the conflict in that.
So the obvious compromise, at least at the higher road speeds, is to upshift the transaxle under the ASL rules. But I'm not so sure if the roadspeed is below say, 10 MPH, especially if the brakes are also applied.
In that case I wouldn't be at all surprised if the designers chose to put the transaxle into neutral.
As I have said before, I have personally been in ice covered roadbed circumstances wherein the ABS was so "busy" preventing wheel lockup that the vehicle literally would not come to a full and final stop. I'm quite sure that had even the slightest level of engine compression braking been present on the front in those instances the ABS would not have been able to prevent wheel lockup at the front.
But that's no excuse for using DBW to "protect the drive train", prevent premature transaxle failure due to poor design, hardware or firmware.
Bring back the CLUTCH, PLEASE...!