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Dodge Dakota: Problems & Solutions
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Comments
Yesterday, I drained and replaced my PSF.... twice. Although the new fluid I put in was water-clear... it is allready BLACK again. There must have been a lot of black gunk hanging around in the system.
I have decided to suck-out and replace the PSF every couple days until it clears up (that is the plan anyway.)
I am using the Prestone brand PSF available at wallmart for about $4 for a quart. Even if it takes $12 of fluid before it starts to clear up... that is MUCH cheaper than a powerSteering pump.
Does anyone else have black, smelly powersteering fluid? (It should be clear and nearly ororless)
How many miles do you have on your Dak?
Ron
*)It is used to determine outside temp when starting a cold engine.
*)It is used to 'adopt' the charging rate based on battery temp.
*)It is used as input to modify the calculation of several other variables such as ignition timing, injection timing, intake air density. (There are sensors in the intake airflow too.)
I think the 136 amp alternator is a standard item anytime air conditioning is on the vehicle. However, when I looked at the 2002 RAM sales brochure, it definitly implies that the 136 amp alternator is standard equipment on the 4.7
I do know that the dealers computer parts screen listed a 117 amp for the 2003 Dakota with a 4.7 engine. This could be for stripped down fleet versions of the Dakota, although I don't remember seeing a footnote.
Regards,
Dusty
QUESTION: I see you are in Florida, I assume it gets pretty hot there... do you have the PS cooler on your Dak? (It looks like a little radiator on the return hose.)
I am suspecting that there may be a good argument twards adding a cooler to the return hose if the factory one is not already fitted. (Cost less than $100 for a cooler, hose, and some clamps.)
I am in Vermont where it does not get much over 90 more than 20 days a year.... but in the winter when it is -30F.... it is VERY HARD to turn the steering wheel for the first 5-10 minutes.
I have to make a FULL RIGHT TURN as I pull out of my driveway. The first winter I had my Dak, I almost ran straight out of my driveway into the snowbank across the road. I have since learned to wiggle the steering wheel about a 1/4 turn right/left about 10 times before driving. This warms the fluid enough to make it steer when I 'muscle' it.
Perhaps the "synthetic" fluid you mention would help this situation... but since I would have to use so much of it to 'purge' the system... it may be cost-prohibitive.
Yeah, mine is stiffer in the cold weather, but not like yours. My Nissan, our Chevy and our Toyota all exhibit a bit firmness to a varying degree during cold weather. Out Chevy groaned a lot.
But so far the Dakota seems what I would call "normal" in this respect.
How many power steering pump failures are you aware of. My service manager didn't indicate this has been a problem on past Dakota's (but, I've been lied to before!).
Best regards,
Dusty
I didn't recall seeing a MAF sensor or a MAP sensor.....but my memory might be fading a bit here.
I believe that with DOdge not having those add'l pieces, they have a bit better system (less stuff there means less stuff to break)
By the way, the original PSF in the 4.7 is either ATF+3 or ATF+4 tranny fluid. It should be red or reddish brown under normal conditions.
I have read about at least 4 folks that had a PS pump failure on a 4.7L V8. Do not forget that the PS pump on the 4.7L V8 is NOT THE SAME as the one on the other engines. It is apparently a brand new design. (first afailable in 1999 on the Jeep Grand Cherokee)
(sunburn) ATF+3 or ATF+4 tranny fluid in the PS system???? Where did you get this info from. I have the factory shop manual and that is NOT what it says. From my research, any kind of ATF is not desirable for a powerSteering system. I am willing to learn more... please tell us where you get your facts from...
Well... I am going out right now to change my PS fluid for the 3rd time this week.
Sunburn is correct. Begining in late 2002 Dakotas started to get the ATF+4 as power steering fluid.
There is a cautionary note in the service manual about judging this fluid. All ATF fluids use a dye, but years ago it was permanent. ATF+4 appearently is not.
The manual also states that "ATF+4 also has a unique odor that may change with age. Consequently, odor and color cannot be used to indicate the fluid condition or the need for a fluid change."
I'm a little concerned when I read that someone had a symptom with the power steering system that was remedied by a fluid flush or change. Years ago the only time you needed to grab a can of power steering fluid is to add some, not change it.
I examined mine and -- assuming it's ATF+4 -- it is already much darker than the same stuff in the transmission at 13,000 miles. There's an odor, but I can't say it smells like it's burnt at all. So I don't know. I'm not experiencing any unusual noises or steering related symptoms. But I will ask my Dodge guy about this one.
Regards,
Dusty
Best regards,
Dusty
Thanks for the info... my 2000 shop manual was printed before ATF+4 was available. It specifically warns against using ATF in the PS system (I assume that was refering to ATF+3)
I do know that ATF+4 is SYNTHETIC-based and may have qualities that are acceptable for a PS system. (Like heat resistance.)
BTW... you mention that color and odor may not be good gauges for when the PS fluid needs to be changed... I agree, but also would err twards changing it SOONER rather than later.
There is NO QUESTION that my PS fluid was burnt... the odor was VERY STRONG (Like wet ashes) and it was black as coal. (Even holding up to sun in a glass bottle showed it was not even opaque)
It is curious that some folks will change their oil every 3000 miles (WAYYY TO OFTEN!) yet will ignore all of the other fluids that keep their vehicles running maintenance-free.
I just changed my PSF 2 more times. (running engine and turning wheels lock-to-lock) between changes). Both times, it came out pretty dark... at least now it is starting to look opaque. I will do some more changes later in the week. (I have not even used $6 worth of fluid yet.)
I have been looking for finned coolers to put on the return hose. (Just like the factory setup) I have found one at "Advance Auto" for $29 that is twice as large as the factory unit. Still contiplating wether to buy it or change the fluid more often...
But even then I've not run across this situation where the fluid becomes degraded in some way.
After my last post I did check the odor of my power steering fluid and compared it to the transmission dipstick and they have an identical odor...by my nose at least. But the power steering fluid is most certainly much darker than the transmission, so I think something's going on. I just don't have a clue at the moment why.
If I find out anything I'll post it here.
Bests,
Dusty
OAT= Organic Acid Technology
HOAT= Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (has a traditional Ethylene Glycol-base, with a single OAT inhibitor and is moderately silicated)
You heard correct... mixing OAT with the 'standard' Ethylene Glycol antifreeze may jell, turn brown in color and plug up the cooling system. (Can you say ENGINE MELTDOWN?)
As for what to use in the 4.7L V8... it depends on the year of your vehicle. I beleive that the early 2000 Dak has "standard" Ethylene glycol.
BOTTOM LINE:
As long as one is flushing the entire system (including heater core) it should not matter which quality coolant one chooses to use.
I did talk to the Dodge dealer's service manager today, and he said they have never replaced a power steering pump for a 4.7. In fact, he said the only problems they've had were on Caravans, when during a period they had pump pulleys come loose.
I asked him about the dark color of the ATF in my Dakota, and said he wasn't aware of any problems. But I'll be keeping an eye on it just the same.
Regards,
Dusty
I am a little concerned about my vehicles reliability with pinion seal replacement and probable poor dealer repair causing axle whine; A/C compressor failure with $900.00 repair tag including new receiver/dryer and belt; and possible P/S pump problem.
Anyone flushing brake fluid? I thought that may be good next maintenance item.
Thanks, Jim
I realize this does not remove ALL of the PS fluid... but it is MUCH easier and there is less chance of getting dirt into the system like when a hose is pulled off. (which would be immenent failure for the pump or seals.)
Like you said... a GALLON of NAPA PS fluid is about $10 so that will go along way twards my partial fluid changes.
For those of you that are wondering why I am replacing my various hydrolic fluids.... they are hydroscopic. That is, over time, they 'attract' moisture and turn brown. This water in the system will cause corrosion. (Did you ever wonder why ALL brake fluid is supposed to be from a "TIGHTLY SEALED CONTAINER"... it sucks the water right out of the air into itself.)
I have replaced enough master cylinders and calipers to know that complete fluid replacment every couple of years is less costly and safer than having the brakes fail when I need them most.
Replacing the brake fluid is not difficult... pulling all 4 wheels is what takes the time.
Robert
Directly under the drivers door, on the other side of the framerail, there is a plastic "canister" with several hoses plugged into it. One of those hoses was pulled off. (there was no hoseclamp from the factory.)
You can lookup the code listing here; http://www.obdii.com/codes.html
These codes are the same for ALL vehilces sold in USA with OBDCII (OnBoardDiagnosticCode)
(Society of Automotive Engineers specification J2012)
Originally, actual "PowerSteering fluid" used to be the only recommended fluid... but as of August 2001 the recommended fluid changed to ATF+4. I have pasted the details of Technical Service Bulliten 19-007-01 below.
TSB# : 19-007-01
DATE: AUG 01
DESCRIPTION: Power Steering - New Fluid Type
TEXT:
The factory fill power steering was or will be changed for 2001 and 2002 vehicles. The new fluid is ATF+4 (M59602) and it provides superior performance in both low and high end temperatures. ATF+4 P/N 05013457AA(quart) and 05013458AA(gallon)
ATF+4 is compatible with other Chrysler approved fluids but to avoid confusion should not be mixed for "Topping Off".ATF+4 should become the replacement fluid. If a steering system is being serviced for fluid loss, pump replacement, hose, gear or rack replacement, the complete system should be drained and refilled with ATF+4.
VEHICLES THIS APPLIES TO:
AN 1994-2002
DN 1998-2002
DR 2002
JR 2001-2002
LH 1993-2002
PG 2002
PL 1995-2002
PT 2001-2002
RG 2001-2002
RS 2001-2002
Now the fun part. My transfer case is leaking fluid and I did not know it when I took it in. I looked under the truck to see how everything looked and saw oil everywhere. The dealer didnt see it and it has been there awhile, so I am not sure how long is been leaking so now back to the shop it goes.
Robert
John
The significant difference between a power steering system and an automatic transmission is the amount of absolute pressure of the fluid environment. Since ATF+ series use a non-permanent dye, I wonder if the effects of fluid compression (pressure) is causing premature dye oxidation.
Regards,
Dusty
This is what my complaints were:
1)No backup lights when in reverse
2)The 4X4 light did not come on when in 4X4
3)Vibration when accellerating
4)intermittent wipers unstable
This was the corrective actions;
1)Replace switch on xmission
2)replace entire "console" (Tach-speedometer unit)
3)Replace rear U-joint on rear driveshaft
4)Replace wiper switch.
What did this cost me?... only the $50 deductable
My overall experience.... This dealersip has GREATLY improved since I was last there for service a couple years ago. Not only have they remodeled the service area, they have hired some folks that are "customer friendly". Everyone I spoke to was smiling and helpful. They even have installed a drive thru car wash that the service customers get to use for free.
THEY ARE TRYING VERY HARD TO MEET THAT "5-star" OBLIGATION!
35k miles and counting. I am glad Dodge gave me a 50k warranty when they had to drop the tranny to work on the engine after a few thousand miles, since this was my buyback replacement.
Wish me luck.
Robert
Good luck,
Robert
Anyone know if he is correct? I know there is a suggested maintenace schedule that is 30k and 100k I think it was, but thats not a warranty limit, its suggested maintenance.
Thanks for your help.
Robert
Good news is the axle seems fine now. The bad news is that I told the repair shop I wanted synthetic lube in the rear diff (since they had to drain it anyway) and they went and put in "what the dealer recommended" - i.e. Mopar 75w90 with friction modifier (LSD). I am pissed. The guy at the body shop insisted that the dealer didn't recommend synthetic, contrary to what the manual, and the rest of the Dakota forum seems to think.
Unfortunately, it was too late for me to call any local dealers, so I am going to call tomorrow and get the scoop as to what they think.
The thing that bothered me as well, is that the guy only put 4oz of friction modifer in my rear (4x4, 9.25, 3.55) instead of the 5oz that I believe the BOB calls for. On the back of the friction modifier bottle, it says "add 2-5% by weight", which for a 4.9 pint rear, would correspond to 1.56 and 3.92 ounces respectively. (by volume, how do you tell by WEIGHT?). Is my rear going to blow up or something?
I'm going to get the straight scoop from at least 2 dealerships tomorrow, and this guy is going to re-do the job if the recommended towing setup is to go synthetic.
I was going to do it all myself, but since they had to drain the rear anyway, I figured I'd just get it done right away. As always, hindsight tells me I should have bought the lube and gave it to him MYSELF. Oh well.
I'll let everybody know what at least 2 dealers say as to synthetic gear lube.
Chris
2001 QC 4x4 28k miles
According to the manual, you do not NEED synthetic lube in the rear end. (unless you are towing) But if you are planning on keeping your Dak for a long time, It is well worth it. The 2-3 MPG increase alone is hard to ignore. (I went from 18MPG to 20.5MPG after switching)
Synthetic lube in the axle(s) provides better lubrication, less wear, lower operating temps and longer life. (As compared to dyno lube)
These are FACTS!
Red Line is perhaps one of the best choices for synthetic lubes.( http://www.redlineoil.com/whyredline.htm )
Their "75W90 Gear Oil" allready contains the friction modifer so you do not have to add it.
I have RedLine in my front and rear axles, Xfer case, and manual transmission. I do not expect to have to change these lubes again before 150K miles.
The lower portion of the front of the box, where the sheet metal comes down just below the frame (just in back of the cab). It appears that without added protection, this area gets bombarded with sand, rock salt and stones and chips the paint away.
I cleaned the floorboard area between the frame and the rocker panels and applied a generous coating of undercoating that I got from AutoZone. I also coated the affected area.
Regards,
Dusty
Dusty
NV233 2.5 pints (Part-time Four Wheel Drive, Hi/Lo)
NV244 2.85 pints (All Wheel Drive)
ATF+4 is the recommended lubricant for both transfer cases.
Regards,
Dusty
Do you happen to know if you have got a 8.75 or the 9.25 axle set? Is it limited slip?
Best regards,
Dusty
Needless to say, disappointment became a constant companion. Since this was happening again, I figured that the root cause has to be something other than those brake components: me or the truck. I'm not a "speed-demon", so I'm never in a hard-braking situation and even if I would be, the 4-wheel ABS won't allow it.
I decided to really heat up the brakes by coming down a long hill (0.75 mile) under power while applying some brake pressure but not enough to engage the 4-wheel ABS. By the bottom of the hill, the pedal was mushy. When I parked it, one could see a tiny bit of smoke in the front wheel wells. After cooling off, the brakes were acting like new. All of the pulsing and shaking was gone. Braking distances were and continue to be very good and predictable. I have to assume that I'll need to go through this procedure periodically. It might be a bit hard on the rotor and pad life span but so is taking some off with a lathe.
I don't know what your routine driving is like, but my wife and I both have a majority of very short trip driving during the week. Now my Dakota has yet to develop this symptom, but my Nissan Sentra would occasionally do the same thing.
I think because of conditions some people's cars/trucks get loaded up with rust outlines from the pads sitting in one spot in humid-wet weather. Then a good long drive or surface-scraping stop cleans the rotors off.
Regards,
Dusty