Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
2000 Integra Type R vs. 2000 Celica GTS
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Aftermarket links, reviews, specs etc.. working on an owners database etc. Ever seen one of the pages for a car like dsm.com or newcougarowners.com etc.. well thats what its all about.. Please come support this page.. I need everyones help to make it big.
CLICK ME -> http://www.7thvision.com/celica
Larry D
00 GT-S
:-)
PS. Pretty girls would be nice too (fighting to make it through the crowd to give a Celica owner their phone#..) heheh
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Also Mark pointed out to me those puny 15" rims that come stock on an ITR help out on the strip as there is more rubber to be worked with and less weight to be turned than in a 16" rim. The only think thats bad with a smaller rim is its usually not as wide. But then again when was the last time you saw an import use 16 or 17 inch rims with drag slicks?????? There are always 14" or maybe some 15" steel rims. Mark said that its also very possible to get good high 14s with a stock TypeR using slicks instead of the radials. Huge difference in lauching in that first 60 feet!!!! And then still be able to say all stock!!! Yeah stock motor, interior, suspension etc etc. Who would know there was slicks on it. But I don't know what I am talking about. I am just reiterating what he was telling me!
What slicks accomplish up to 60ft is a good launch with good grip and minimal spinning, but I 've seen Type-Rs spin them for a good 30ft with slicks too. Depends on the driver and how you ease off the clutch..
And yes, the ITR is robbed from some horses at the wheel due to the LSD. We know that too.
So thanks for all the info we already knew. I don't see the point. I 'm guessing you 're trying to say that ALL those type-Rs that get high or close to mid 14s had slicks? Did Motortrends stock ITR have slicks too? or R&T's, or C&D's or SCC's? I don't think so. Or what about all those people at the acura-honda.net forum? They all lied according to your buddy Mark? Has he ever gone to the strip to see what his ITR can do in the 1/4? If yes, and he hasn't hit sub 15 #s then tell him to practice and he 'll get it, or let a real driver have a go at it, ok? You can put slicks on the GT-S and it still won't match the #s of the ITR. Like I said before, a guy and a bunch of his friends, took out all the seats from the car, put slicks on the GT-S, modified the intake to take in colder air and put a free flow muffler on. They went back to the stip 3 times and had at least 8 runs each time. They accomplished a best 14.96s which I think is admirable and logical considering 1 car mag (MT) had a best time of 15.2s (we won't count the 15.4's & up..)
The guy's 2 or so posts are in the Sports/Coupes Forum under '00 Celica and go back about 1.5mos.
Someone just wrote to me a couple of hours ago about the 154hp dyno run of the GT-S, maybe he got it off the Rodmillen web page too.. It's in the right range. I 'll go check the charts out.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
The 2 mods consisting of air intake & exhaust resulted in a nice 15hp gain, comparable to an AEM intake & DC Sports (or others) exhaust HP gains for GSR.
What's very noticeable in the dyno chart, is the torque curve which is not very smooth at all like the GSR's & Type-R's. It's almost like a rollercoaster where the Integra's torque curve is almost flat up to 7200 or more rpm.
The Celica's goes up until 4300rpm and then drops all the way to 6200rpm to under 100 and then climbs up again to its peak of 114 through 6800rpm and then starts droping from there..
Now I know why Mr. xxxqst said he didn't like the dyno charts. The Celica actually loses 16 lb/ft of torque from 4300 to 6200rpm.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
The GSR runs at maximum torque from around
4Krpm to 7200rpm and the Type-R all the way up to about 7600rpm. Flat line!
The Celica's power curve is also not very smooth either and the power doesn't seem to really climb unitl 6200rpm and stops at 7200 where the GSR starts sharply climbing at around 4800 up to 7600rpm. The only good thing I see in this power curve is that the HP stays almost flat (peak) from 7200 to 7800rpm (then followed by sharp decline/loss like in the GSR). The GSR stays at peak HP from 7600 to 8000rpm and then drops. Same as ITR but from 7900-8300..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
And if you look at HP curves the GT-S curve is very strait until you hit 6gs and the second cam kicks in. DAM you feel that! all the way through to the next shift. The GSR's and Type R's second cam kicks in a little earlier. Which makes the power curves look differently than the Celicas. BIG DEAL! Are you going to whine if I cut a piece of cake differently too???? You just feel it more when you feel the second cam kick in.
timed the Type R at 6.6 sec. The Celica is about on par or maybe ever so slightly quicker that the GSR but slower than the base Prelude and Type R. It is nearly 2 full sec. slower than the Prelude from 0-120 mph and has an 11mph lower top speed. The GSR also has a higher top speed than the Celica.
GT-S owners are Type-R wanna BEs.
I don't car if the power to weight ratio is the same. It's how the engine was built, where VTEC kicks in, flat torque curve, etc. etc.
Look at the BMW 328i that puts out 193hp and weights 3300lbs! 0-60 in 6.9s or less. Of course it has more torque so lets compare it to the Chevy Monte Carlo, Acura 3.2TL, Infiniti I30 that are all low to high 7s cars and have 200+ HP & torque. Ok, so these are automatics. Lets compare it to the Mustang V6 then that has 190hp and 200 torque!
Best 0-60 I 've seen for the Mustang V6 5-sp is 7.3s (and a 7.5). The Mustang is almost 100lbs lighter than the 328i! So it should be faster right? WRONG! It's the engineering of the motor, gearing & aerodynamics (drag coeficient).
It's how the power is transferred to the wheels and at what moment (power & torque curves). It's many factors.
The Type-R has a lot shorter gearing than the GSR just like the GT-S but looking at the #s seems like the ITR is engineered better.
Only with mods will a GT-S be a threat to a Type-R
And if Rodmillen is the only one that has something so far, good luck. You 'll pay a premium for them..
Just fyi, with just an AEM cold air intake ($220), the ITR 's HP at the wheels increases to 171 & torque to 120-121. Also stock ITRs put down 116-117 torque (117.8 is the highest I 've seen stock) at the wheels, not 114 like the GT-S.. even though they have the same torque at the crank. Why? better torque transfer to the wheels, thus better engineering.
AND no ITR weighs 2650! Stop making up numbers!
The ITR weighs a couple of lbs over 2600 with A/C.
I don't think A/C weighs 90lbs do you? Because the weight without it is 2570. The Celica is 2500 stripped. Sunroof alone is 30lbs+
Lostandfound: "it just as fast and better looking and betterhandling for less"
It looks like you 're still lost.. since when is the GT-S faster and better handling than an ITR? You can wake up now.. Never seen the Celica hit below 15.2s in the 1/4 or ever touch .90g in the skidpad or ever match the ITR's slalom speed. You can wake up now..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
In my opinion, the GSR is easier to launch and does not bog down as much as the Celica, and it's peak torque does occur at a lower rpm. GSR also has one of the best gearboxes with extremly short throws and a clutch that's very easy to modulate. Getting back to the Type R though; can anyone provide the 0-100 and 0-120 times for the ITR? I'd be willing to bet that they would be considerably faster than the Celica's 19.6sec. and 35.7sec. respectively. As speeds climb the gap in times between the Celica and ITR widens dramatically. And then it's all over of course, once the Celica hits 129 mph in 5th gear!
Race my all motor and full interior 13 sec 89 civic hb, and you'll see what i mean, 6000 bux but eats z28s for lunch.
You have a Civic EX & turbocharged it (along with other mods). Then you threw the engine out, put a Prelude motor in it, turbocharged that, now you're swapping it for a GSR motor because you couldn't have A/C with the Prelude one, etc. etc. You also just bought a hybrid old CRX.. Yes, there 's lots of ways to beat the big V8s.
A turbo or a project car is the best way to do that so you 're on the right track.. Some of us though are not into these heavy mods and don't have the time or guts (or money) to rip out a perfectly good engine.. If I were 10 years younger and single I 'd probably be doing a lot more mods too. Back in the 80's I used to love working on my cars all the time. Now I just want a car that is pretty decent right out of the box and maybe do some simple bolt ons.
Our intentions (I think I speak for a lot of us including our Toyota friends) is not to beat Z28s & Formulas with 350ci or 3000GT VR4s. I would 've bought a different car if that was on my mind. Reliability, gas mileage & handling were more on my list because I commute 80mi each way to work. Well I also knew about the aftermarket parts availability and that the GSR is the car most people modify, but that wasn't at the top of my list.
Like you said, I enjoy driving it and that's all that matters.
As far as the Type-R being a myth, noone is trying to make it out to be a Ferrari or a Vette, but I definitely know it kicks my GSR & Prelude butt every time! I just have respect for that car because it's way better than mine, not just slightly better (stock vs stock).
You may not think so highly of it because you 've driven turbo Civics, turbo Preludes and who knows what else with modified suspension, etc.
As far as top speed goes, we were mainly talking about track racing. Call me crazy but I 've hit 135 when noone is around on the highway at least 3 times. Once racing an Audi A4 2.8, a Lexus 400 and an early-mid '90s Mustang GT. I pulled on them and won every time.
May I remind everyone again that the Type-R took 1st, 2nd, & 3d place in the SCCA Touring Races? Competed against 7-8 BMW 328s, Eclipse GSXs, VW VR6s, Mercedes, Mustangs, Preludes, and all kinds of other cars, etc. except for M3, Porshes & the like. Of course there were about 4 Type-Rs competing. One 328 got 4th place. This clearly proves the capabilities of the Type-R.
But you 're absolutely right. Enjoy your cars because they 're special to you.
Have a nice Holiday..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Besides good luck finding a manual in SH trim.
Hmmm... you might want to research that before you open your mouth. And C&D picked the lude over the Eclipse and then the GT-S... third place my friend. And now they've tested the thing twice (a pre-production model that got 7+ seconds) and now an actual production model that still got beat by the lude. And lets not forget - this wasn't just about a race to 60mph. Even if the GTS had the best time at the trial - that would have moved you up to maybe second.
I agree with the other guys here - I bow to Type R's - there's just no beating them but please don't tell me the GTS is better than everything around. The last response is a clear indication of what Type R's do to the competition - it's like having an unfair advantage!
A six speed does not necessarily mean better performace - better fuel economy - I wish Honda would put 6 speeds in the lude and Integras myself - I wouldn't change the gearing - just add on a 6th gear for highway driving.
Anyway - it's pretty clear that you want to take the best case scenario and make everyone believe that that is the standard to go by. If that's how you get your kicks - be my guest.
And as I pointed out, you clearly didn't do your research on what transmission you get with the SH - meaning you are getting these 6.8 times from out of a hat most likely. I'm all for putting your best foot forward and braggin about your car - let's face it - neither machine is cheap. But don't dis a car unless you have some good information to back it up - otherwise your entire point gets lost.
I don't particularly like saying one car magazines revue is god's word - Lude owners will always point out C&D because they like the car - respect well earned but nevertheless... One of the reasons why the Lude was at the top of the pack in that revue was it's history, the fact that it cost the most (not always a good indication but...) and they all knew how to drive the car to its best.
All I'm asking is look at all of the revues and come up with some over all impressions - not just what MT says.
Here's what I found
6.6s 15.2s (MT)
7.5s 16s (C&D)
After a quick check anyway - there's probably more. Now some might say that the C&D test was flawed because it was a pre-production car - however - if you look carefully - so was the MT test. Most people overlook that (well Celica people do anyway). Oh well, I think it's a great car but I'll be buying a 6th gen lude next fall and I guarantee it will top the market again 'pecially since the Celica came out and Mustangs are equivelent. Or maybe the new Integra - I don't know - I think this is probably the year for the Celica (just like when the Miata came out), but Toyota better sell a bunch of them, it be a shame to have to redesign it when the new Honda's come out!
There are design philosophies to compare. The GSR has lots of noise dampening restrictions (the Integra intake is no work of art) on it to make it tolerable for the masses, the GTS was designed from the outset to beat the GSR so it didn't get these to the same degree. Once the noise dampening equipment is removed from the GSR, it gets ~183-187 at the crank. Total cost: <$40-$220. Dispute this if you want, it's sad but true.
Oh, many "witnesses" at the track say that the best a GSR can do with I/H/E is 15.6? Yeah, I've seen these guys, too. They can't drive I guess. There's some really great drivers out there who can hit high 14's (not stripped) in a GSR with just an intake, though (on stock tires). Believe it, once my 60 foots improve I'll be one of them. I do a 2.4X now, but another guy in a stock 99 GSR can pull consistent 2.2's! When I get that down, I'm in the 14 club! I've also got a 22mm rear bar in my car. Difference in handling is night and day. The GSR's tires are the worst known to man. Of course the GTS will win as long as the GSR wears those!
Also, remember the GTS is >6 years newer in design. I'd expect it to outperform the GSR (as it does).
The Type R is a whole other beast. It too suffers from the noise dampening resonator; once that's out it pumps out >200 at the crank. I would not consider a limited slip differential a power robber. It aids greatly in making sure the most power actually MAKES IT TO THE GROUND. That's (among other things) where the ITR edges out the GTS. I'm not even going to try to say I could take a ITR; they are consistently 14.7 1/4 cars. Wouldn't even compare the handling, either.
Toyota moved in the right direction with the GTS. It's about time! They set their sights on the GSR and edged it out. Toyota really focused on the weak points of the GSR (tires and noise tuning mostly) and really nipped them. I like the GTS. It's not a poser sport coupe like so many others. Can't wait to race one, heheh...it'll be interesting.
One last thing. Everyone here seems to see a Type-R like every other day. How is this? There are not too many of them. I've seen one at the dealer parking lot and another at the booze store. That's it. Never run into one on the road. I'm jealous of you guys!
carlady/host
You said he had a "computer". I assume he replaced the computer chip, but actually there are no good "computer chips" for the Integra and they don't do what they claim to do. Some take their GSRs to specialty performance shops that reprogram the ECU (computer) to usually move up the rev limiter (to like 8500 or 9000) and they mess with the fuel maps to provide more fuel and run "rich".
This mod usually gets you about .2s in the 1/4.
The best upgrade after bolt-ons for a GSR is a performance CAM with cam gears which is better than reprogramming the computer.
Anyway, I think low 14s is pretty damn good. That's not achieved easily or without spending some $$.
But since you mentioned a 14.9 Integra may I remind you what I said before in a previous post about what a GT-S owner said in the sportcars/coupes topic about his experiences at the strip.
He is an experienced dragster and he and his friends took the seats out, put an exhaust and a free flow muffler on, modified the air intake to suck in colder air and put slicks on. The best run of the day (and they had many, I think he mentioned 11 or more in one day) was 14.96. That's almost similar to the Integra you described except for the headers which only add 3-5hp anyway. Just addressing the points you made.
You don't get low 14s with just simple mods - takes a lot for a 4cyl. car without a supercharger (or turbo) to get low 14s or to shave off more than a second in the 1/4.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
If they were to put 16" Pilots on the 16" rims the price would probably go up significantly..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Its a guy's from Down Under that has alot of info on all the new Celicas world wide!!! From the horridly low powered Celicas sold in the UK that are dressed to kill but no motivation under the hood - to the king of all Celicas!!!! the Japanese Celica SS II "super strut" edition that makes ITR's everywhere run for cover!!! With limited slip diff., Complete FACTORY race suspension with double wishbone up front as well as the rear. Factory strut tower bars in the from and rear. Not to mention the factory in dash navigation system! As well as some nice weight saving techniques to keep the lightweight champ in trim shape!!! Lucky for us here in the states we don't like to buy to many of those from the factory. So we get the upgrade packages in spring(April)!!! But still very nice!!! I am not sure if TRD will have the limited slips over here also or not. Only time will tell. And I have some bad news from my Buddy Mark from in at work with the Type R. He is selling the motor out of it and putting a 2.2 Prelude block and 2.3 head with a 25G turbo to make over 450 hp!!! I think he should just upgrade the motor already in it!!!
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/news/losangeles00/concept2.html#6
500 frickin' horsepower!!! from a 2.0 liter 4
cylinder car!
Judging from what I've read and I know, it's clear that the Toyota now surpasses the GSR, but only marginally and there are some tradeoffs to this. As for it being a Type R, forget it. Seriously, forget it. The Type R is in its own class as far as performance goes. Also, recall that the Integra GSR is actually 5 years or so old now...the GTS is a 2000 model. It took Toyota 5 years and technology from Yamaha to beat the Integra. This is a testament to Honda's obvious superiority in small engines & small cars. Also, it once again proves that VTEC is a better and higher-performance system in these applications. When the new Integra comes out, with the detuned 2.0L, forget it, the Celica won't even be close.
the address is
http://www.newcelica.org
Larry D
00 GT-S
Thanks Harry you answered my question as to why Toyota is developing that 230 horse 2.0 liter for the GT-S! Aparently They couldn't hide it from toyota! Honda is uping the stakes a bit. Wow. It will have a 2.0 liter engine with 30 more horse than the GSR vtec motors!!! how nice!!! And it should be faster than the ITR also with less weight!!! KEWL!!!! I am glad I don't need to stop to that level. Mine gets better gas mileage, Mine has more HP, Mine has more torque than an ITR, mine has a newer body style, mine cost less, mine has more features, mine has a 6 speed, mine has more factory support! LOL Should I continue. Just face it the new celica plain and simple is more of a total package rice rocket than the GSR or ITR!!! And keep blabing about torque curves and all that cause in the end it still wont make the GSR any closer to beating a GT-S in a race. And trust me no matter how you look at it. the GT-S is still a 1/2 second faster than a stock GSR. I prove it everyday!!! And the motor still hasn't completely broke in yet.
LOL Also let me quote this out of SCC for you. "VTEC-i was developed using Honda's new VTC system- variable timing control- and their much regarded VTEC technology. The VTEC continues to switch cams at a given rpm, but now the VTC adjusts the intake cam timing on the fly, EXACTLY LIKE the VVTL-i in the new Celica GT-S." I rest my case!!! All this bragging about new Honda motors and all this stuff about how much better they will be, when you don't have to look any futher than the hood of a New Toyota Celica GT-S! How bout that! Now I know why I have so much low end torque!!! Thanks SCC for clearing that up! So when when all the Acura/Honda guys get excited with the VTEC-i The toyota camp will be yawning saying what too you so long!! 6 years after Toyota introduced that technology!!
230hp Celica should mean comparable GSR & better Type-R, I can't wait. And hey, if the GSR or Type-R fall short I 'll trade in my GSR and probably get a Celica too. I don't think I 'm that bad of an Integra fanatic :-) I go where the power is.. heheh
It's going to be interesting to watch though. When is this going to stop? hmm... it just started.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
But I think you're BSing us- maybe in Japan it'll happen.
Anyway I think in the months to come we'll find out what we've known for awhile - the GTS is better than the GSR, but still doesn't have enough to beat the ITR - who knows I could be wrong but Toyota's target market was bang on and they beat it. What I like about all of this is that the new coupes are going to be more powerful (with each company trying to outdo each other) and more competition which means lower prices. I can't see Toyota actively seeking out the Type R market - we are talking about 500 cars a year - they sold more Supra TT in a year and that was a pretty rare car. BTW - anywone know why they went to black in the states on the 2000 ITR (it's still white in Canada)?
All this horsepower will come with a price as a new 200 hp GSR and 240 ITR and 230 hp Celica/Supra would cost more than now! I am happy with the prices now so we can still have a life other than cars and increase performance when we have the money to do so. Otherwise Honda and Toyota will either have to make a limited number of the cars like Honda is with the ITR or otherwise they will all go the way of the TT Supras, 300Z's, RX7's, Stealths, etc. etc. They priced themselves out of the market!!! People can afford a Celica or a GSR or I think even an ITR but pushing that limit will slow sales! And I know Honda and Toyota don't want to do that!! They are both going in the same general direction with the Sports cars, And Toyota learned from the old celica that people won't buy if its priced too high(Supras) or not worth the money(old Celicas) But I think the prices would be around 24000 base for a Celica 23500 for a GSR, And who knows for a ITR. But It will be very interesting to see if Honda and toyota do decide to up the HP!!! Watch out all V8 cars!!! these things will all be runing low 14s!!!!! Wouldn't that be sweet!!!! All this talk about the motor I have gotten off of sales reps like 3 -4 weeks ago on celica files chat site!!! So I am sure it is on a drawing board somewhere but that doesn't mean any of our dreams would come true!!! But I am sure we all hope! So. LOL if the latest Celica was a bomb I would probably picking up a black ITR this summer too!!! I love the power!!! But I definately know Honda has been a leader in NA 4 bangers for years but now with Toyota entering the ring, it will make us all more satisfied in the future!! Then Varaible valve lifts, and cam timing will be just the start of 4 bangers living longer, racing harder, and getting better gas milage than V8 could dream!!! Thats what I want!!! I don't care what import you got! If you see a GSR or ITR or even a GT-S beside a Stang at a stop light were all rooting for the 4 banger!!!
carlady/host