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Call it ESP but I sense a whole slew of future statistical-related posts!
I can feel those viral sympthoms again :sick:
I am not sure what your line of business is, but if you are in a business that makes your time very very valuable then you'd understand why reliable transportation is paramount. When you spend the kind of money these cars cost, you don't want to be dealer-hoping, trying to get your car serviced or fixed for nicks and knacks... Reliable car means never getting you and your business associates stranded on the road... or not been able to make your important appointment bcos your car wouldn't start... or other myriad of electronic gremlins that can afflict these high-end, electronics-laden cars...
Think about this for a minute: the higher the marque, the more electronic gizmos that are crammed into them, and the greater the propensity for them to malfunction. Meaning: You gotta have cars that are RELIABLE, where these electronic features are seamlessly integrated and functions flawlessly *most of the time*. All of which Lexus sedans and trucks do fairly well...
That's why Lexus is the #1 selling luxury brand in NA.
That's why the LS430 is the #1 selling premium full-size luxury sedan in NA.
Reliable, luxury, build quality, customer service, value priced, and good retention of value....Lexus is #1 in almost all of these categories...
Ferrari
Bentley
Mercedes Benz/Maybach
Rolls Royce
Lambroughini
Are any of the above vehicles renowned for RELIABILTY?? I dont think so!
In fact we all know that they are renowned for their UNRELIABILITY!
So why do people spend humungous sums on such cars as listed above? Maybe such purchasers dont read CR and prefer reading Conde Nast and the Wall Street Journal?
In other words reliabiltiy is a main concern for the proliteriat masses and a trifling concern for a select few capitalists who can afford the cars they dream about!
But my question is who cares?
A less reliable LS430 would still be a better car than a Corolla!
With that in mind, head on over to KBB's website.... About half-way down on the right half of the page, you'll see a section entitled "Best Resale Awards".... Go ahead and click on that link and check out which brand(s) KBB gave their award to......
I dare ya.
Call it ESP but I sense a whole slew of future statistical-related posts!
Dewey, if you are correct on this I for one would be surprised. Len, I would say the true measure of residual value is not "current resale/original MSRP", but "current resale/original purchase price (or cap cost)". Some cars typically sell at bigger discounts than others, so MSRP is not necessarily a comparable number between different brands for true original cost.
On that score, if after 3 years you can sell a typical 7 for a higher percentage of original purchase price than a typical LS, I would be impressed. To actually figure that out, I assume you could use the links to Edmunds' TMV pricing that Len gave us back in #10790 to determine what a car could be sold for now (I would suggest using the "sale by a private party" as the basis for current resale - that takes the dealer markup/markdown out of the equation). Then you would somehow need to figure out what those cars actually sold for back in 2002.
In my zipcode, Edmunds says the typical 3 yr old 745Li would sell for $42,029 and the typical LS would sell for $33,809. To be conservative, let's assume the LS originally was bought for $55,000 (which is only about $1000 less than I paid for my '05 with Nav system, premium stereo, etc.). So the LS retained over 61% of original cost. For the 745 to match that, it would have had to have sold for less than $68,372.
But Edmunds says a "typically equipped" 2005 745Li would now actually sell for $75,978.
2005 745Li pricing
Let's say that 3 years ago it would have sold for $2,000 less than in '05 (twice the amount I took off for the LS, just to be conservative again). That would mean that the 745 could have been bought for $73,978. Therefore, the 745 has kept less than 57% of its value after 3 years.
So which is the residual value leader - the LS that retained over 61% or the 745Li that retained less than 57%?
Oh yeah, I know, this was one of those "statistical-related posts" that you apparently think are irrelevant....
However, I do believe a small percentage of buyers buy the 7 series because they think it's more sporty, because after all, BMW does indeed have more sporty model throughout its lineup, even though the 7 series itself is hardly sporty.
Even with the sporty models such as S8, S55, or XJR, they make up a very small percentage of total sales, most people that buy these nice big cars buy them for the luxury, the comfort, the sporty models are more headline grabber than anything else.
Based on well-informed projections by Kelley Blue Book's expert staff of market analysts that are encapsulated in the Kelley Blue Book Residual Value Guide, the awards honor vehicles that are expected to have the best resale value after five years of ownership.
Thanks, but I'd rather look at past history than someone's guess of what will be 5 years from now. I can evaluate someone's past performance a lot better than I can evaluate someone's future predictions!
It's funny, because I can remember back in 1994 when MB's residuals were so high that I decided to buy a new rather than used E, because the difference was so small that the new car warranty outweighed it! Previously, I had bought a 1986 735i with 11,000 miles on it in 1987 for about a 25% discount off of new, and assumed I could do the same on an MB, but I couldn't come close to that kind of discount.
I guess you don't understand that everything isn't about sales. We were talking about a sporty sedan that is what the 750i Sport, S8 and upcoming S63 will be, sporty sedans in the full-size luxury car class. They aren't made just for sales, they're made for people who want some with a little more bite, something I guess isn't understood in LS430 land. Who cares what they sell, that doesn't change the fact that they are there.
Let's face it, MBs and BMWs derive a huge chunk of their Euro sales from low end 3 and C-class cars that are mostly used as sherpas.... taxi cabs, I mean.. These cars litter the streets of Europe - vinyl seats, no A/C, manual windows, steel wheel covers, pretty much bare-bones... All of which counts towards MB and BMWs *prestige*, eh ? Oh, but here in NA, they market them exclusively as luxury brands... Good marketing that's all...
So what, they ain't lost one lugnut of prestige by doing this for over 100 years. It must be frustrating to keep repeating something as irrelevant as that, because buyers in those countries don't care. If you're going to "face it" then you'd be facing the fact that no matter what BMW and Mercedes sells at the low end their top end M, AMG, V12, 2-door, convertibles etc. etc. get all the glory. This is something Lexus only wishes it had. Now if Lexus can overcome their Toyota roots with certain buyers here then surely Mercedes and BMW can overcome some entry-level products that aren't their main focus. Does it bother LS430 and SC430 buyers that a ES330 is a Camry in leather? Heck no. Ditto goes for a S500 buyers who sees a B200 Turbo or a 750i buyer that sees a 130i in the same showroom. Darn right BMW/Mercedes are masters at marketing, its a cheap shot to knock them for that.
Yes, MB and BMW are pretigious brands, no doubt, but to make them into these super brands is a myth, especially these days. Notice how the new GS is priced close to the comparable MBs and BMWs. How about the new IS and its MB and BMW competition... practically about same. Does that tell you something ???
Yeah it does. It says that Lexus see itself getting closer to BMW and Mercedes in those market segments, sure does. The brand itself, years off from doing the same as a whole. BTW, I don't make BMW and Mercedes out to be superbrands, only that they are more prestigious than Lexus. The "Super Brands" would be Bentley, Rolls, Ferrari, Aston-Martin and the like.
The kinda of sentiment MB had back in 1989. Continue the sarcasm...
No, that is isn't sarcasm. Lexus being a no-go in their homd market is called a fact. It isn't the Germans fault that Lexus didn't start their dominance in their own market and let foreigners have their own homeland luxury car market.
Also I noticed on the 2007 LS board you stated that because the LS thread has more traffic than the 2007 S-Class thread that means trouble for the S-Class. I guess that must be the same trouble the better selling E-Class is in next to the much more popular 2006 GS thread. Too funny.
M
Ooops, the article said Tercel, not Lexus but just as well, a Toyota is a Toyota, no matter how hard you try to convince yourselves that a Lexus is a luxury marque.
Ricky
Infinity is a Nissan
Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Land Rover are all Fords.
Ferrari is a Fiat
Lamborghini is an Audi
Audi is a Volkswagen
Bentley is a Volkswagen
Rolls Royce is a BMW
Maybach is a Mercedes
Mercedes is a Chrysler
Saab is a GM
Come on... you can do better than that.
M
Using the following ratio:
(05 resales bought 3 years ago)/(05 Edmunds pricing) is as an a imperfect figure as using (current resale)/(original msrp)
A perfect residual value figure would need the prices of the original cost and the current resale. Unfortunately as far as I know that data is missing!
Here in Canada we cant even consider the above computations because there is no equivalent Edmunds TVM pricing for Canadian vehicles . In fact we dont even have access to Dealer invoice pricing information!
Bottom Line: The Blue Book ranked BMW/Mini as number one and the Blue Book is considered the authority in residual values.
For two years in a row, BMW had the highest residual value as a brand for the luxury segment:
http://www.alg.com/awards.aspx
Lexus is a respectable #2.... but there's nothing like being #1!
(Of course, I know what happens next.... In response we'll start comparing the residuals for the LS430 to the 7-Series........)
Remember that there is far more to an entire brand than one car! Especially one that only makes up 5% of total sales..... Oh, FWIW, what are the current residuals on those two cars? Aren't they about the same, anyways? Around 60% for 36m/36k?....
Hmmm, are not the majority of Lexus sales based on the Toyota Camry/Highlander platform?
What further stats do you fellows need to understand that BMW is number one in residual values?
True, but certainly not Lexus owners in North America
But as a financial pro I'd advise you to lease and not buy. If your going to believe in future values put the risk on the financing party whenever you can - particularly in something that has future residuals that are pegged at higher prices than past performance supports.
Bill Gates drives a Lexus to work.(SC, I think)
I personally will not be ashamed of driving the same car marque as Bill Gates.
I wasnt talking about Lexus' volume players, I was talking about the "prestige" cars that sell for above $40K, but if you want to knock Lexus for platform sharing, you've got to knock everyone else that does it. Could Lexus make an RX330 on an independent platform? Easily, but it would raise the price to ML500 levels. It makes much more sense for them to use a perfectly capable existing platform, undercut the Germans by ten grand, and hammer them on sales. Just because most European car companies use a single badge for all of their models, it doesnt make them "better" than anyone else.
But I'll tell you what - when I see an ordinary person driving home in a new S500 to a house that is worth 50% of mine I know he's just BSing himself on status. Besides, after three years his car is worth less - on top of that. So much for status three years later.
No he can't do better then that...He took his best shot and it fizzled under the light of pure and unchallangeable LOGIC....A reasoned response....Facts vrs Fiction..
Something you may not know...U.S. citizens cannot buy New Luxury cars that are not made in Canada ...from Canada.
Taking into concideration the difference in our exchange rates....A New Lexus or Mercedes is quite a bit cheaper in Canada then in the US...
I don't know how often it needs to be said but this thread is all about the S Class the 7series and the LS...as well as some other luxury top dogs like Jag...Audi A-8 ..and even the acura....
We should not be talking about the A or C or even the E class Mercedes the 5 or 3 BMW or the IS, ES, from lexus....Yes the Mercedes SL and other High end Luxury Marques are often thrown into the mix....
But this lease discussion should concentrate on Similar Marques Like the S..LS...7 series...Top Jag...A-8 ..........to make any sense at all.
You mistake Undeniable truth for being less then Modest...
The LF-Sh is more muscular in appearance than the old LS, and there's no question Toyota intended to make it less derivative, less dependent on styling themes pioneered in Europe. But Panke couldn't help but notice the Japanese car's distinct "Bangle butt," the high rear deck lid first used on BMW's controversial 7-Series.
I think, in their heart of hearts, L- finesse designers are secret admirers of Bangle and his butt.
Taking into concideration the difference in our exchange rates....A New Lexus or Mercedes is quite a bit cheaper in Canada then in the US...
Pardon me but I really dont know what you mean?
I was not using Canadian prices in any of my past posts although I did mention that in Canada we lack some important car pricing info(TVM and Dealer invoice pricing.
I mean nothing more then you guys in Canada get Real Deals on Mercedes and Lexus...Much better Prices on new Luxury cars then we get here...I tried to buy one up there a few years ago..
If your dealers could sell to U.S. citizens we would flock up there to buy.
Warren Buffett drives an old pick-up truck and his house is valued at $800,000. No idea what that guy does with his money.
I agree with you, these are some of the most exotic cars ever (Lamborghini Diablo is my all time dream car), but the problem with these makes is that they're extremely unreliable and don't make too much money, that's why Ferrari was acquired by Fiat in the 70's, Rolls Royce was taken by BMW a few years ago, Bentely taken by Volkswagen a few years ago, Lamborghini, who sold his company in the early 70s, switched several hands, and finally landed with Audi/Volkswagen.
All these companies are finally turning profit, after they have vastly improved their reliability... Acura NSX actually changed the landscape. If it wasn't for Ferrari, people still think unreliaiblity is part of the package.
LOL, 10 years ago maybe.
Right now, luxury cars are SUBSTANTIALLY more expensive in Canada because of the rising looney and the hot economy in Canada.
---- from a Canadian actually bothered to check out the facts
Bentley
Mercedes Benz/Maybach
Rolls Royce
Lambroughini
Are any of the above vehicles renowned for RELIABILTY?? I dont think so!
In fact we all know that they are renowned for their UNRELIABILITY!
1) People drive these on holidays, so it will be fine if a wait at the shop is needed.
2) However, if you need to meet Bill Gates to talk about business development, you better drive something more reliable.
3) Does it occur to you all these unreliable marques, except Ferrari, are actually dead? (Is Ferrari owned by Fiat now? Correct me.) They were forced to bankrupt and sold to other companies. Eventually, the new parent companies are going dump these money drain once again.
I am an American who was actually up there trying to buy a car....and it was not even 5 years ago. It also has nothing to do with your economy...It has to do with taraffs and import fees which are much lower up there....In essence you are a free trade zone with Japan and Europe..
If it's attorneys - they would choose BMW.
If it's bankers - they would choose Lexus.
If it's Real Estate or Title Company Execs, they would choose Mercedes.
Rappers would choose Range Rovers.
Tony Soprano would get the Escalade.
I'd love to know who they surveyed, because if they were all from California - they would all be driving a 7-Series.......
I think people have to remember that most big companies, regardless of industry, have had a humble beginning. Before Lamborghini started making ultra exotic cars, they were making tractors! Diamler-Chrysler's Mercedes-Benz passenger car division lost a whopping $2bb in the first half of 2005, if it wasn't for its commercial vehicle division, which makes garbage trucks, buses, commercial vehicles, there probably would have been a reorganization (I do want to add, Mercedes-Benz posted a much more impressive result for the 3rd quarter). Even though Toyota was making small economic cars, doesn't mean they can't make luxury cars, especially when they're made better in a lot of people's minds.
I have to say, the new IS and the new LS look very hot, I am not planning to jump boat, but it's tempting.
No question, the Jag will turn a ton more heads.....
While Jaguar has pretty much shed all of the problems of its pre-Ford days, it's lost a lot of what made the cars so special, and I think that has a lot to do with Jaguars failures of late. As an owner of two JSes and two XKs, I can definitely say that their interiors are not nearly as good as they used to be. In the JS, you could close your eyes and fool yourself into thinking you were sitting in a Corniche. Close your eyes and touch a some of the surfaces in the current XJ sedan, and you'll think you're in a Kia. I really hope that the interior of the '07 XK feels as good in person as it looks in pictures.