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There are a number of new generation brake pads that incorporate ceramics to address this problem. The upside is that these pads not only eliminate dust, but they do not compromise on the performance of the pads. Here is an interesting read, and I can direct you to others if you want. Start with this one:
link title
Let me know what you think.
TagMan
(set)front pads 121.52
(2) front discs 274.40
Not that bad, IMO. We should compare those prices to the BMW, Lexus and others just to see if anything jumps out. Good work.
TagMan
There are those dealerships that charge to much. I priced a 60K service for a customer a while back. He asked how much the oil change was. I said "what?". He said that he paid the same price but the oil change was $45.00 (or so) and how much would a transmission service be. I told him a 60K service included an oil change and transmission service on his model. He then explained that he paid for a 60K, oil change, and transmission service at another dealership.
I read the MB labor operation to him from the MB "book". Needless to say he was PO'd. Who the heck pays for a service and does not get an oil change? What is a 60K then?
Even if there are dealerships that charge too much . . . if the oil and filter change is supposed to be included in the 60K service, then it's included . . . period. If the customer did not get what was paid for, regardless of the price paid, then the customer has a legitimate complaint. That service charge activity you describe sounds like it is in violation of the dealer's franchise agreement, anyway. At the very least it is ridiculous, pathetic, and GREEDY.
TagMan
You want to hear greedy? I went to my dealer a couple of years ago to inquire about having a factory nav system put in my car. The nav unit is literally plug-n-play and interfaces directly with the car's electronics. It cost $1500 for the unit. The ditz at the service counter tells me it'll be about $3K - $3.5K just to install it! :surprise: She gives me a line about them having to take the dash apart, blah, blah. I bought the unit at another dealer and installed it MYSELF. It took all of 20 minutes to install and I only had to remove just 3 pieces of dash trim to mount the GPS antenna! I wanted to go back to the dealer and slap her for trying to rip me off.
Up to $3.5K for 20 minutes work?? "Ladies of the evening" don't make that kind of coin! :mad:
I think there must be regional or national customer service representatives that should get feedback on this stuff . . . or perhaps they, too, have their hands reaching into our pockets as well. I just don't know, and I think it is an outrage.
"Ladies of the evening" don't make that kind of coin!
Well . . . "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!"
TagMan
What kind of car?
I told him ALL service should be done at the reduced labor rate.
The current issue of Automotive News, the trade weekly which should be a must read for all car nuts, says that a Lexus dealership trades hands for between 6 to 10X of net, before tax earnings. A Saturn dealership by contrast goes for between 1 and 3X earnings. The same issue has a front page article on how automotive dealer profits are at a five year low. Apparently when you have to sell the car for invoice and new laws prohibit the old time shenanigans in the F & I room, there isn't much left in profit. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys.
The normal things that drive multiples are at work here:
A. Strong parent company manufacturer that is an industry leader.
B. Healthy industry leading profit margins combined with lots of flexibility allowed by Lexus in pricing.
C. Strong car sales growth of the brand and industry sales leadership
D. Secure investment with solid growth potential
E. Scarcity - there are only 200 or so dealerships in the US
F. First refusal rights on future dealerships that Lexus wants opened within X miles of an existing dealership.
I tried to make this additional point awhile back and it's a big item for Lexus. The fact that their dealerships are the most profitable and hence valuable around is a big advantage for Lexus. Often times lux dealerships in high population areas are owned by the same person or company. It stands to reason that you'll always lean to investments in your most valuable and prize worthy assets and right now in multi lux dealerships those are the Lexus dealerships. Would you rather invest in something that gets you a multiple of 2-5 when you sell it or something that gets you a multiple of 6-10??
I think that brands with a big dealer profit margin are setting themselves up for discounting and the prostitution of the line. I've always thought that M/B was smart to have a 6 (or is it 7?) points between list and dealer net. No matter how low class the dealer wanted to act, he wasn't going to be able to diminish the brand by heavily discounting the product, selling it in other territories, and stay in busines.
Meant it in the context that Lexus doen't have the constraints that MB has with the tight differential between dealer invoice and MSRP. IMO - this tight constraint is not representative of business realities and is about as meaningful as the 55mph speed limit. For all intent and purposes it is a total failure as are most restrictive business constraints in any line of business. On top of that tight business constraints add a lot of red tape and un-needed admin work (on both the retail and mfr side) and slow sales. The Lexus formula is much smarter and allows for a free market and is the ultimate in capitalism. You have to maintain certain high lux dealership standards and score high in customer surveys in order to get high financial benefits/incentives from Lexus and you can only maintain such standards if you are financially strong. Hence this type of crosschecking doesn't allow for discounting or brand dilution in any way shape or form - and that is very obvious in the lease deals. In fact it does the exact opposite and promotes renewed purchases, high margins and high customer satisfaction levels - all of which you see and are some of the qualitative reasons behind the high multiples of a Lexus dealership. The whole process just feeds on itself and is built on the type of premises that long-term bonus plans are built on.
"Or at a minimum, they won't advertize it, discount it and sell out of their trading area."
If MB lease deals of $479-799 on cars from 54-80K that I have routinely been seeing for so long now that I lost track of time are not brand dilution (and advertised brand dilution at that) then I don't know what is. Those deals cause poor resales (which we see and which also causes brand dilution) and make someone think twice about buying in the future - unless they intend to hold the car forever.
Labor Type: CG Labor Sold Hours: 2.00 Labor Sale Amount: 116.00
│ Labor Parts Misc. Subtotal Tax Total
│ 116.00 433.91 0.00 549.91 50.86 600.77
││Part Number Description Qty O.H. A.Q. Sale Amt
││000-989-08-07-10 CH Brake Fluid 1 0 0 16.90
││001-989-94-51 CH Brake Paste 1 41 40 3.41
││003-420-89-20 Brake Pads 1 4 4 121.52
││211-540-17-17 Brake Sensor 2 14 0 17.68 DP
││220-421-09-12 Brake Disc 2 5 5 274.40 DP
Notice we don't charge misc shop fee or environmental fee B.S. for rags/ fluid disposal etc.
Chrysler 300M Special
Notice we don't charge misc shop fee or environmental fee B.S. for rags/ fluid disposal etc.
After charging $600 for a brake job, you had better not!
No problems.
12.5 years of BMW's.
Only been in for oil, chocolate chip cookies and cocoa.
The M B lease deals you cite must be factory subvented if the dealer's gross is only 6 or 7 points at best. Clearly, on this thin margin he can't subsidize them. (On the other hand, I heard the -yes, there is only one- MB dealer principal in ME complain once that he wasn't as profitable as he would be if located in a large metro area because Mainers buy, not lease. He claims he would do far more gross on a MB lease.)
We'll just have to disagree on this one.
I absolutely agree with this. Generally restrictive business practices such as presented by MB a number of years ago is counter-productive.
TagMan
Chrysler 300M Special
As stated: 05 S500
That would be a large sedan manufactured by Daimler Chrysler marketed in the U.S. under the Mercedes-Benz marque. :P
This is a thread about luxury cars remember.....hahahahhaha
That would be a large sedan manufactured by Daimler Chrysler marketed in the U.S. under the Mercedes-Benz marque.
This is a thread about luxury cars remember.....hahahahhaha
:confuse:
Hmm... It appears you completely missed the point of my post. It was in reference to dealer "greed." Please see post #14114.
Excuse me while I wipe the egg off my face. I am assuming you are stating the type of car mentioned in the satt radio post 14115/14117. My apologies for the unintentional flame.
Notice how the manufacturer wanted to sell their cars by "suggesting"/imposing restrictive dealer margins that help the manufacturer maintain a competetive price structure, at the sacrifice of the dealer's profits and not their own.
Further, any "suggestion" that buyers should be limited in their search for competitive prices is absurd.
It's just plain too much tampering and interference by the mnanufacturer.
It's one thing in this country to have price controls in effect with regards to some of our public utilites, but a luxury car is an entirely different situation.
Mercedes can package that BS any way they want to, but the stink is clear. If Mercedes Benz has any serious concerns about their lofty prices, then they should not look to the dealer's margin for a solution. They need to take a long hard look in the mirror for the answer.
TagMan
link title
A sign of things to come?
I had owned a two Cadillac Eldorado STS from 1995 through 2000. I enjoyed the sporty response and rapid acceleration. But when they announced that the model would be discontinued, I decided it would be a good time to step up in the world. At that time, the updated Lexus LS430 was introduced and it fit my budget. I owned it from 2001 through 2005. I had 68,000 problem-free, quiet, comfortable, mind-numbingly boring miles. It could go fairly fast, and with the "European Sport Package" could take corners fairly well, but it really didn't want to go fast or corner hard. As the lease came to an end, I resolved to get something more engaging. (Yes, a lease with 68,000 miles--what was I thinking?)
I test drove everything that was supposed to be a sporty sedan. (The wife required that it be a sedan.) I drove everything except the BMW 7 Series because it is still not good looking and no one I know has mastered the I-Drive.
I was especially looking forward to the Audi A8 because all the car magazines rave about it, and my wife had once owned a 2001 Audi A4 3.0 with quattro, and it was SO fun to drive. I was expecting a A4 with legroom. Nope. Ponderous feeling. Noticeably not quick. And after the Lexus, unacceptable cabin noise.
Drove the '07 MB S550 (a few were around the town available to drive). The best Lexus Mercedes ever made. Certainly much faster and better mannered than any MB I have driven before. (I have never been an MB fan.) Also nice looking, inside and out. But it just felt heavy and uninvolving. Other than the speed, it was difficult to see why I would pay $25,000 more than for a new Lexus. (And this was just before Lexus announced the new LS460.) I also tried a CLS55, which was extremely fast although it always felt as though it was working hard. The ride was not that punishing on the behind. But while the interior fit and finish looked nice, it somehow felt down-market. And it truly is a 4 door coupe. I doubted my wife would consider it a sedan.
The Maserati Quattroporte made me smile so much. I even found a way to snag three test drives! But each time after the adrenaline wore off, I couldn't help but wonder about reliability, fuel costs, insurance costs, repair costs and availability of qualified mechanics. And it is pricy. I sure hope Maserati can match others' reliability in the long run. This is car that deserves to be in the market.
So I was forced to drive a Jaguar. (I literally didn't want to because when the new aluminum model came out a few years ago I had sat in one and couldn't find a comfortable seat position.) I drove a JX8. It was nice. The dealer wanted me to try a XJR. I declined because I assumed it would be rougher riding than I had become used to. He talked me into trying a Super V8. Golly, it made me smile. Literally. Stupid fast, willing to run at the slightest provocation, so light and responsive. Quiet even when risking tickets for unlawful exhibition of speed. Smooth ride. And the extra seat buttons on the Super V8 got me into a comfortable driving position. So this is what Jaguar fans have been talking about all these years? I'm joining.
I have had the car for 8 weeks and have 2,000 miles on it. No problems, mechanically, but did get one speeding ticket. I'm being careful now.
M
The 2000 S-Class was released (the 1st year of the previous body) in March 1999. The total MB units sold for that month was about 16k+, which is pretty close to the month of the 2007 S-Class release (Feb 2006) of 17k+. The 2000 S-Class sold 2403 units in its first month, while the 2007 sold 3360.
Here's the link for reference: Autoworld.com
Why would anyone publicly post wholesale shipments, and release that to the news as sales/registrations? That's beyond deceptive, and shouldn't be hard to be caught on.
Could be quite a public relations nightmare, plus impunes the credibility of the reporting medias involved.
DrFill
The closest thing we have to real time public sales is the RL Polk registration data which is obtained from MV data of the states. I'm not sure they even get it from every state. We all know full well that government systems never report that quickly and most permanent registrations are delayed 1-2 weeks anyway. So at best that consumer data for February won't even be known until later in March. The Polk data is bought heavily by the auto mfs as that data enables them to make factory planning and production decisions as it shows what dealer inventory is moving and in what zipcodes.
M
In an article about Chrylser the clarification on the sales reporting process is given. A quote:
"Chrysler and other automakers record sales and revenues after vehicles are shipped to dealers rather than when they are purchased by a customer."
M
BTW, the link was informative. Thanks.
TagMan
M
New and improved for 2006, with better graphics, faster download times, and 20% fewer calories than Splenda!
Now, this thing with the sale figures. It may be true. Sales are figured based on dealer purchases, not customer purchases. All I know is most loans, in 2006, are actually bought, or approved, by banks before the customer leaves with the car, making it relatively simple to count sales for a dealership per day, per week, and so on, with dealer-connecting computer programs, of which, regional offices and bookkeepers can download sales information from dealers on a daily basis, then factor in any percentage of buybacks or false sales for any given period.
Let's say not all of your 3000 dealers (for Ford, for example) aren't on the same computer system. Let's say 500 are off the system, don't have computers, write all their daily sales on cocktail napkins. Is it that hard to have the bookkeeper report their sales for the month to the regional office by Noon on the first? Is that difficult? My dealership knows how many cars they sold last month on the 1st. If you can count cars sold, daily, you can certainly add those days together for a monthly total, right?
Then the six regional offices report to the national office their findings, then you add the figures from the six offices, write the press release, proofread it, and release it for the afternoon of the 1st. Far from brain surgery!
I don't see it as that difficult, provided a dealerships bookkeeper can count 15-20-30 sales a day, consistently, and load that into computer software, or call it in to another bookkeeper.
If the automakers can't do that, I can show them how.
For a small fee,of course.
DrFill
M
Maybe it's all distributor-to-dealer, but I wouldn't do it that way. It's at best misleading, and couldn't be less accurate.
What happens when you have a 2005 that just doesn't sell? It sits on the lot all year? How do you count that? You haven't seen an add for a new car that one model year old? Wouldn't that screw up your books?
My problem is, I'm too simple-mided! :mad:
Life is as easy as you make it.
DrFill
You compared your 2001 LS430 w/a European Sport Package to a 2006 A8 and found it ponderous, slow and to have an unacceptable cabin noise level.
The 2007 S550 was heavy and uninvolving and the CLS55 which is supercharged btw, always felt as if it were working hard, this compared to a 2001 LS430?
The Maserati, which is 100g's straight out the gate, you're worried about it's "reliability, fuel costs, insurance costs, repair costs and availability of qualified mechanics. And it is pricy."
So you ended up with a Jag Super V8, but you don't tell us how it compares to the 2001 LS430...
Why didn't you just buy another LS 430? GS430? When it comes to handling, speed, high performance luxury sedans, nobody mentions Lexus, even with the new IS350 automatic or even Jag for that matter, heck not even Cadillac with the V series... It's the 3 Germans that are the high performance luxury kings still...
It's the Germans that get all the good press. That doesn't mean that the other cars aren't good. Cadillac's V-series performs quite well. And Lexus is Lexus...
Trust me on this - I know the information industry inside out.
lj, I think the S-Class selling price over the next months will be determined more by supply and demand than by any strategy. Sure MB will want to sell as many as possible. That's typically the case anyway.
With regards to the margins, MB doesn't generally have massive margins to begin with any more, and any premiums OR discounts will be a matter of . . . once again . . . supply and demand. Once the new LS emerges onto the scene, the supply and demand for the S-Class is likely to be affected, but by how much is to be seen. If the new LS diminishes the demand for the S-Class then the prices on the S-Class will naturally have to ease.
The flip side to this is that when the new LS first hits, pricing might be rather lofty in the beginning, also due to supply and demand, and those tight prices on the LS could potentially send a few folks over to the MB camp.
lj, I continue to like and appreciate your intuitive business sense.
Regards,
TagMan
I saw the S Class in person yesterday. It looks much better in person than in pictures. They had a nice blue S550 in the showroom. The wheel fenders don't look so obvious in person. The inside was nice, but not breathtaking...I didn't like the iDrive knob in the center though..They had a bunch of leftover S Class from 2006 as well. Those cars were much better looking..
This all has me wondering..Do you think I would be able to get a good deal on the leftover S Classes? Do you think the build quality of the last run would be better than what we've seen in the past?
-Sam