Historically Idriven and Active Front Steering (AFS)!
But my main concern is the future. The rumored BMW Minivan that will compete with the MB R Class is definitely one example. Another example was the link I posted previously showing BMW's focus on electronic nannies for driving assistance. Most such technologies do not belong in enthusiast cars, IMO.
"the car can practically drive itself", it will be time for me to move on.
Interesting.
For a split second last week, when I drove the Porsche, I thought that the "performance" was too darned easy and simple to achieve. I know that should be a great attribute, but I did think it.
Mercedes has to live with the R now and it is unfortunate, IMO, but we are talking real world evolution of cars, and who knows what will be in the future. Some things cool, and others, well . . . R-Class.
Another example was the link I posted previously showing BMW's focus on electronic nannies for driving assistance. Most such technologies do not belong in enthusiast cars, IMO.
I think BMW should pay more attention to what the M division guys do, for example replacing E-steering with good old fashioned hydraulics, dumping the run-flats, and active steering. Why are those things necessary?
Talking about evolution, I am amazed by this forum. I am sure this topic will survive long enough for us to see which luxury brand is the true winner, in a couple decades.
I think the belly-flop the R-Class has done in the market has forced BMW and Lexus to seriously rethink building such a vehicle. Unlike the CLS, I don't see anyone else trying to duplicate the R-Class.
think BMW should pay more attention to what the M division guys do, for example replacing E-steering with good old fashioned hydraulics, dumping the run-flats, and active steering. Why are those things necessary?
I could not agree more. I think BMW should make the features mentioned above as options . But then again this would backfire since luxury buyers expect their luxury cars to be loaded with gizmos to compete with other luxury cars. Apparently performance plays a secondary role for the majority of BMW buyers. And BMW knows that.
isnt that basically the toyota FT-SX concept (recently announced as possibly the next highlander) and in that case the HPX concept could be the next RX because of how many features of the RX are already Shared with the highlander
I think the belly-flop the R-Class has done in the market has forced BMW and Lexus to seriously rethink building such a vehicle. Unlike the CLS, I don't see anyone else trying to duplicate the R-Class.
You know, merc, I have to give Mercedes credit for being an innovator regarding the R, even if not entirely successful. Mercedes took a pretty big risk with the R. I agree with you that the others probably will learn from the belly-flop, and not go into production of a similar vehicle.
is a value shopper's gain. You can lease this behemoth in V6 version for only $500/month for 27 months. I have not sat in one, but the vehicle has been praised for its first-class roomy seats and interior. I drove behind one 2 weeks ago and I must say, it looked pretty nice for a van, but then again, this is coming from someone who likes what Bangle did with the 5 Series. :shades:
Audi hasn't released anything as of yet on the US-spec RS 6. But, my A of A rep told me a few secrets, mainly the 500+ hp, the carbon-fibre roof, the rear drive-biased Quattro. And we won't get the super-cool racing seats the Europeans enjoy. But from that, I see this RS 6 also crushing the M5 once more
Mercedes took very little risk with the R-Class, as it shares a platform with Big Momma Pacifica, and they sell traditional SUVs like the GL and ML here already. There is no pressure on the R to carry the flag, if you will.
They thought they might catch "Lightning in a Bottle", and they were wrong, but they didn't really risk anything on this test case.
To this day, I have never seen one on the street.
The HPX has nothing to do with the Toyota concept, nor the R-Class. The HPX is a VERY LARGE SUV concept, physically bigger than the LX470, similar in size to the Caddy SRX.
A vehicle that size, sold by Lexus, wiould never see the light of day at less than $40k. If anything, it will be a nice transition from the GX470, which is falling out of favor as trucks have recently.
A bigger RX is a great idea, and I'm surprised Lexus hasn't been all over it! Smaller Hummer, bigger RX, not hard to figure out what is working here. :mad:
Since the HPX hasn't come close to seeing the light of day in 3 years, when Lexus can build a concept to production in 2 years, I question if it will ever come.
And I don't think Lexus is waiting with baited breath to see if Super Station wagons will become hot. That's Diamler/Chrysler's baby.
The CLS hasn't exactly been burning up the sales chart. Quite the opposite, it's sales are down big time this year. I don't see the 4-door coupe fad going far either.
Actually, the R-class and Pacifica are on different platforms. Weird isn't it, considering they look soo much alike.
The Chrysler products that use M-B hardware are all last generation platforms, aren't they? (Crossfire\SLK320, 300\E430). I think there would be a lot of hubbub if Mercedes rebadged a Chrysler.
Speaking of the R, I saw one in a Baltimore parking lot last weekend. Enormous.
The CLS hasn't exactly been burning up the sales chart. Quite the opposite, it's sales are down big time this year. I don't see the 4-door coupe fad going far either.
Aston Martin and Porsche seem to think there's a market for their CLS competitors. It will be interesting to see if they work or not.
So, Mercedes is darned if they do and darned if they don't?
The main point Doc, is that it is rarely small pocket change to introduce a new model automobile. The risks are certainly the financial investment in the vehicle and the further risk is the one we all see here . . . about the reputation, which can become diluted. In this case, I don't see major damage to the marque, as the sales and exposure are fairly minimum.
Why blast them so harshly for taking the risk, as though they should have known better? Do you see them as the all-knowing prophet of auto manufacturers? Risk is part of the business. Look at the Lexus SC. Maybe not quite the disaster of the R, but not all that far behind, sir.
Actually LG, the Pacifica is loosely based on the Chrysler T&C/Dodge Caravan platform, hence it's FWD architecture.
The R-Class is the most shocking. It's based on the ultra-stiff M/GL chassis. And this is why all three pass easily in the Tuscaloosa, Alabama assembly line right in line with each other.
It is kind of strange for BMW to do this. A bit insecure. Also, Audi won the first World Car of the Year with the A6. So, being second is always an after thought
Mercedes took very little risk with the R-Class, as it shares a platform with Big Momma Pacifica, and they sell traditional SUVs like the GL and ML here already. There is no pressure on the R to carry the flag, if you will.
True it isn't much of a risk due to the shared platform, but that platform is shared with the GL and M, NOT the Pacifica. The Pacifica is built on a entirely different platform.
The CLS hasn't exactly been burning up the sales chart. Quite the opposite, it's sales are down big time this year. I don't see the 4-door coupe fad going far either.
You've got to learn to look at the big picture, the car sold over 50K in its first full year worldwide, that is why Porsche, BMW, Audi, Aston-Martin and even VW are rushing to do something similar. For a car as compromised in the name of style to sell that well for prices above the E-Class equals a big hit. Of course sales are going to cool down once everyone who has to have one gets one, just like the Lexus' equally drooping GS.
You know, merc, I have to give Mercedes credit for being an innovator regarding the R, even if not entirely successful. Mercedes took a pretty big risk with the R.
Well it seems they haven't given up on the original yet. I'm reading that for 2007 the price has been cut by 5K on both the R350 and R500 and the option packages have been shuffled around like on all other 2007 MB models. We'll have to see if this helps sales. The R320 CDI should help out a little also.
NAD( advertising division from the Better Business Bureau) has requested that MB remove the GL ad below because it may deceive the public on how safe a GL is. They specifically did not like the repeller scene.
The NAD must think the public as gullible and foolish . How can anyone take this humorous ad seriously?
Nothing radically new about the X5 looks. It appears BMW is playing it safe with the styling of their newer models.
I saw a picture of what the new 2009 BMW 5 series may look like in the September Automobile Magazine. The styling of this car appears very conservative. Maybe Chris Bangle is under some kind of restraining order and is not allowed to enter any BMW design studios/premises?
The pains MB takes just to make the audible experience of driving a joy goes beyond what any other car company would do. Over-engineered MBs may be derided here but there are definite advantages in this type of over-engineering.
The first-class comfort offered by the new Mercedes-Benz CL-Class is also an audible experience. Thanks to meticulous development work and the most modern testing procedures, the coupé is by far the quietest car in its class.
In addition to the noise configuration and sound insulation of the engine, exhaust system and chassis of the new CL-Class, it is the car’s good aero-acoustics in particular that make it a very quiet driving experience for drivers and passengers. As early as the conceptual phase, Mercedes engineers took pains to ensure that the bodyshell was optimally streamlined so that wind noise was reduced.
It was with this in mind that they designed the airflow-efficient A-pillars, developed a more rigid bodyshell with reinforced outer surfaces and achieved a new sealing concept for the doors, which is acoustically even more efficient than in the preceding model. This exemplary noise insulation is also helped by the side windows, which have a thickness of six millimetres in the new CL-Class coupé.
I like it myself, particularly the interior. BMW has gone back to a gear shift lever, but a very trick one of course.
I like the interior as well. It reminds me a bit of the new 3 series, but without those cupholders that mess up the flow of the dash. Definitely better than the ML.
For a time reading thro' HELM you'd think it was the ill-conceived, ethno-centric European HELM board ... what a laughable concept by some people here to carve themselves out just bcos....
Its all about BMW this, and MB that... Like I said, its cool with all these Euro talk cos Lexus is primed and ready to pounce. I'm taking some time sitting on the sidelines myself. I'll be back in full force after launch of the LS460. Then we'll see whose got the mojo to scoot through this class unscathed. I predict soon, all the Bimmer/MB fans are going to start talking/hyper ventillating about this new LS. Its gonna rock....
Any of you catch the MT short blurb on the LS460 and the 600hL ? Simply put, for the 600hL, MT stated that: "Lexus is about to change the automotive world. Again."
See what I mean about the LS series rocking...
I'll be seeing you all later.... My wedding anniversary beckons... Going away the rest of the week/weekend.
ps: Tag: How's that Elise treating you so far ? You are a lucky chap/bloke/mate/guy... just plunking down that kinda cash on an Elise. What do you do for a living again ?
Comments
But my main concern is the future. The rumored BMW Minivan that will compete with the MB R Class is definitely one example.
Another example was the link I posted previously showing BMW's focus on electronic nannies for driving assistance. Most such technologies do not belong in enthusiast cars, IMO.
Retuning the radio through iDrive unfortunately becomes a major project.
But you were the one that posted something about "serving real world needs like driving a family"
Interesting.
For a split second last week, when I drove the Porsche, I thought that the "performance" was too darned easy and simple to achieve. I know that should be a great attribute, but I did think it.
But any of us here could have come up with a better slogan.
I don't know what they were thinking of.
A BMW R-type vehicle? I also hope not.
Also, thanks for that other thing I noticed you took care of.
I think BMW should pay more attention to what the M division guys do, for example replacing E-steering with good old fashioned hydraulics, dumping the run-flats, and active steering. Why are those things necessary?
In fact they almost unanimously say steer (pardon!) clear.
The active steering on the GS430 played a major roll in my turning (pardon!) the car down.
M
I could not agree more. I think BMW should make the features mentioned above as options . But then again this would backfire since luxury buyers expect their luxury cars to be loaded with gizmos to compete with other luxury cars. Apparently performance plays a secondary role for the majority of BMW buyers. And BMW knows that.
World Car Of The Year-a beauty contest?
NOT!
I guess there's no Lexus ad because...let me guess...uh...they didn't win any important international awards? :P
TagMan
You know, merc, I have to give Mercedes credit for being an innovator regarding the R, even if not entirely successful. Mercedes took a pretty big risk with the R. I agree with you that the others probably will learn from the belly-flop, and not go into production of a similar vehicle.
TagMan
You can lease this behemoth in V6 version for only $500/month for 27 months.
I have not sat in one, but the vehicle has been praised for its first-class roomy seats and interior.
I drove behind one 2 weeks ago and I must say, it looked pretty nice for a van, but then again, this is coming from someone who likes what Bangle did with the 5 Series. :shades:
They thought they might catch "Lightning in a Bottle", and they were wrong, but they didn't really risk anything on this test case.
To this day, I have never seen one on the street.
The HPX has nothing to do with the Toyota concept, nor the R-Class. The HPX is a VERY LARGE SUV concept, physically bigger than the LX470, similar in size to the Caddy SRX.
A vehicle that size, sold by Lexus, wiould never see the light of day at less than $40k. If anything, it will be a nice transition from the GX470, which is falling out of favor as trucks have recently.
A bigger RX is a great idea, and I'm surprised Lexus hasn't been all over it! Smaller Hummer, bigger RX, not hard to figure out what is working here. :mad:
Since the HPX hasn't come close to seeing the light of day in 3 years, when Lexus can build a concept to production in 2 years, I question if it will ever come.
And I don't think Lexus is waiting with baited breath to see if Super Station wagons will become hot. That's Diamler/Chrysler's baby.
We now know where the line is drawn.
RX, cool :shades:
R-Class, not so much :sick:
Car-like, good. :shades:
Wagon-like, not good. :sick:
DrFill
The updates it needs is engine, power train and probably a new fresher interior, may be some electronic toys as well.
The engine should be updated to 350+ hp coupled with the new 8-speed transmission and then I suspect things will change.
Lexus should easily move 30,000 + units after the update.
The Chrysler products that use M-B hardware are all last generation platforms, aren't they? (Crossfire\SLK320, 300\E430). I think there would be a lot of hubbub if Mercedes rebadged a Chrysler.
Speaking of the R, I saw one in a Baltimore parking lot last weekend. Enormous.
Aston Martin and Porsche seem to think there's a market for their CLS competitors. It will be interesting to see if they work or not.
The main point Doc, is that it is rarely small pocket change to introduce a new model automobile. The risks are certainly the financial investment in the vehicle and the further risk is the one we all see here . . . about the reputation, which can become diluted. In this case, I don't see major damage to the marque, as the sales and exposure are fairly minimum.
Why blast them so harshly for taking the risk, as though they should have known better? Do you see them as the all-knowing prophet of auto manufacturers? Risk is part of the business. Look at the Lexus SC. Maybe not quite the disaster of the R, but not all that far behind, sir.
TagMan
The R-Class is the most shocking. It's based on the ultra-stiff M/GL chassis. And this is why all three pass easily in the Tuscaloosa, Alabama assembly line right in line with each other.
:sick:
True it isn't much of a risk due to the shared platform, but that platform is shared with the GL and M, NOT the Pacifica. The Pacifica is built on a entirely different platform.
M
You've got to learn to look at the big picture, the car sold over 50K in its first full year worldwide, that is why Porsche, BMW, Audi, Aston-Martin and even VW are rushing to do something similar. For a car as compromised in the name of style to sell that well for prices above the E-Class equals a big hit. Of course sales are going to cool down once everyone who has to have one gets one, just like the Lexus' equally drooping GS.
M
In Depth Article
I like it myself, particularly the interior. BMW has gone back to a gear shift lever, but a very trick one of course.
M
Well it seems they haven't given up on the original yet. I'm reading that for 2007 the price has been cut by 5K on both the R350 and R500 and the option packages have been shuffled around like on all other 2007 MB models. We'll have to see if this helps sales. The R320 CDI should help out a little also.
M
The NAD must think the public as gullible and foolish . How can anyone take this humorous ad seriously?
link title
M
I saw a picture of what the new 2009 BMW 5 series may look like in the September Automobile Magazine. The styling of this car appears very conservative. Maybe Chris Bangle is under some kind of restraining order and is not allowed to enter any BMW design studios/premises?
Designman,
it appears BMW is reading your posts.
The new one looks pretty much like the old one from the side.
Not a very exciting re-do, IMO.
The pains MB takes just to make the audible experience of driving a joy goes beyond what any other car company would do. Over-engineered MBs may be derided here but there are definite advantages in this type of over-engineering.
The first-class comfort offered by the new Mercedes-Benz CL-Class is also an audible experience. Thanks to meticulous development work and the most modern testing procedures, the coupé is by far the quietest car in its class.
In addition to the noise configuration and sound insulation of the engine, exhaust system and chassis of the new CL-Class, it is the car’s good aero-acoustics in particular that make it a very quiet driving experience for drivers and passengers. As early as the conceptual phase, Mercedes engineers took pains to ensure that the bodyshell was optimally streamlined so that wind noise was reduced.
It was with this in mind that they designed the airflow-efficient A-pillars, developed a more rigid bodyshell with reinforced outer surfaces and achieved a new sealing concept for the doors, which is acoustically even more efficient than in the preceding model. This exemplary noise insulation is also helped by the side windows, which have a thickness of six millimetres in the new CL-Class coupé.
link title
I like the interior as well. It reminds me a bit of the new 3 series, but without those cupholders that mess up the flow of the dash. Definitely better than the ML.
Its all about BMW this, and MB that... Like I said, its cool with all these Euro talk cos Lexus is primed and ready to pounce. I'm taking some time sitting on the sidelines myself. I'll be back in full force after launch of the LS460. Then we'll see whose got the mojo to scoot through this class unscathed. I predict soon, all the Bimmer/MB fans are going to start talking/hyper ventillating about this new LS. Its gonna rock....
Any of you catch the MT short blurb on the LS460 and the 600hL ? Simply put, for the 600hL, MT stated that: "Lexus is about to change the automotive world. Again."
See what I mean about the LS series rocking...
I'll be seeing you all later.... My wedding anniversary beckons... Going away the rest of the week/weekend.
ps: Tag: How's that Elise treating you so far ? You are a lucky chap/bloke/mate/guy... just plunking down that kinda cash on an Elise. What do you do for a living again ?