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E class MSRP starts at $50k, and that's a fake number anyway. Leases on E350 starts at $399/mo. That's almost the same as ES350, an entry-level luxury car.
HELM means "High End" . . ."End", not "somewhat higher than entry-level." The very existence of S class makes E class ineligible for HELM. Sames goes for 5 series, IMHO. Exx-AMG and M5 may be close to High-End in a way that is not about luxury.
Besides, HELM also means full-size cars, that means 200" length or thereabouts. At 190" or thereabouts, both E and 5 are middlings.
E350 = 51,325
EBlueTec = 52,325
E550 = 59,775
E63 = 85,375
The idea that E-Class prices are on a par with the Lexus ES is a lie.
ES prices start at only $33,170. This is the real truth.
However, The LS430 as recent as model year 2006 had a price of only 56,325, LESS than the E550! This is the truth.
The idea that the E-Class and 5-Series are priced the same is a lie.
The 5-Series are generally in the mid $40's range. This is the truth.
The E-class is 191 inches in length and the LS430 is 197.4 inches in length, both slightly under 200 inches. This is the Truth.
If the LS430 qualified to be a HELM at $56,325 (it was less in earlier model years), under 200 inches in length, then the E-Class has earned the same right to be treated the same, at a similar price and size, with even pricier models and more horsepower. This is the truth.
brightness has compared the E-Class to the Lexus ES, when in fact the E-Class is closer to the LS430, as the specifications and prices absolutely and clearly prove. This is the truth.
So far, everyone has posted in favor of the E-Class being included . . . except brightness. Coincidence? Of course not. And read his post comparing the E-Class with the $33K Lexus ES. I think we all know what's going on here. It's so obvious, but this time we're not going to get sucked into a downward spiral by ridiculous posts. I'm sticking to the high road, my friends.
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me to see Dewey make a special post just to vote for the E-Class.
Case closed. No more lies.
TagMan
This event will truly be revolutionary, making the hybrids merely pretenders, IMO.
Really looking forward to this one!
blkhemi, houdini, and I are also interested in the E BlueTec. So, with your support, we can legitimately discuss it from now on. Are you in?
TagMan
Can't wait for that baby to get here and the other big leaguers' inevitable response to it.
I believe our Canadian sabbatical man is interested too.
If anything can bring him back soon, it's Bluetec.
so if we have to use the word "lie," either Edmunds is lying or Tagman is.
In the world of vendor financing, MSRP is meaningless. The true acquisition cost of E350 comes down to $399/mo, which is remarkably close to that of the ES350. This is the truth. I never said the MSRP's of the two are comaprable, so any mis-characterization of what I said is . . . you guessed it, a lie. BTW, if MSRP is the criteria, Cadillac still boasts the highest sales of cars with MSRP over $40k (or is that $45k) among all brands . . . of course we know MSRP is not the real picture . . . in other words . . . you guessed it, lies.
The E-class is 191 inches in length and the LS430 is 197.4 inches in length, both slightly under 200 inches. This is the Truth
Perhaps to the completely un-initiated. 200" and thereabouts is the domain of full-size cars. 190" and thereabouts is the domain of midsize cars. Incidentally the ES is 191.1" . . . so tell us again is the E closer to ES or to LS, at least as far as vehicle length is concerned? The current LS460 is 200"
So far, everyone has posted in favor of the E-Class being included . . . except brightness. Coincidence?
Does every disgreement have to have a conspiracy theory behind it? Does every argument have to turn into personal attacks?
BTW, if $50k and thereabouts is the line for HELM, then quite a few models from other mfrs would also qualify:
Acura RL,
Audi A6
Caddy DTS
Caddy STS
Caddy CTS-V
Inifiniti Q
Inifniti M45
Lexus GS430
Lexus GS450H
Lincoln Town Car
Obviously, it would make a hash of this board despite I'm sure every model probably has its advocates. The real acquisition cost of some of these cars are no where near what their MSRP would suggest.
If anything can bring him back soon, it's Bluetec.
Absolutely!
Thanks powders.
TagMan
MBUSA
E350 = 51,325
EBlueTec = 52,325
E550 = 59,775
E63 = 85,375
TagMan
Should be enough people fearful of the "new" technology to make my wish come true!
To top that off, there WILL be pricey options-a-plenty that will further add to the price, again nothing like the cheap car some might suggest.
I've been seriously thinking about that car as well, but in California, I have to wait one more year to even consider it.
But, lucky you, your timing might prove to be el-perfecto.
TagMan
Looking forward to the first diesel reviews here.
They've been mostly good across the pond.
I'm looking forward to the reviews as well. I'll bet a chunk of the ranch that the reviews will be fantastic.
TagMan
The reason I posted "if actually used", is because there is speculation at this time (not confirmed) that MB may have come up with a way to eliminate it altogether, as has Honda.
Honda has confirmed that they do not need it, due to a special catalytic system.
TagMan
As I see it, nothing to get "pissed" about.
The experienced 545 driver is using the throttle and brakes effectively on the good Tag, huh?
Thanks.
TagMan
Interesting tidbit from Honda, wonder when their product is going to be here. Here I thought the Euro's had a techno lead on diesel. It doesn't sound good if they have to license the less troublesome urea-free approach from Honda.
The good news for people who are actually interested in getting one of those buggers is that the subsidized leases will include some of the most popular option packages, with the same inflated residual per centage . . . so getting options won't cost much real money.
Incidentally, trying to expand the HELM portfolio in the other direction, with more carry capacity, like the R class tried, did not prove successful either. Apparently, HELM with decent sales volume at high price premium faces a rather conservative target audience: four doors, full-size sedan, and load up as much luxury as possible.
Of course, you are right. I was being sarcastic - certainly when LExus was conceived, there was nothing at Cadillac you would want to emulate, around 1985.... And Lincoln, well that old boxy Town Car was selling like crazy, but it was very old tech compared to what the Europeans had going.
Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?
M
And the HELM designation is just fine. No need to change it.
Today's E-Class has evolved far enough to more than qualify. Heck, we're talking an E-BlueTec, an E550 and an E63. For goodness sakes.
Especially considering the LS430 was here for so long with its borderline qualifications.
TagMan
Doesn't "Marque" mean a brand, label etc. etc.?
I remember the discussion as to whether or not Porsche qualified without the sedan.
Good point.
Either way, the inclusion of the E has lots of merit. Overall the line-up would inject a healthy dose of added content for this forum, especially considering the terrific nature of the evolved vehicle and its different variants. Read my posts and consider the points I have made. The Host has granted this open window here for this additional German marque, and others have expressed a similar approval of the E's inclusion. Let's not miss the moment.
How 'bout it Merc? We are close to a concensus here.
TagMan
Well you know I read everything here so I've read your case for the E, but honestly I don't see it as a High-End Luxury Sedan in the sense that we've used the designation for this board.
Now I used to raise this very same question along with others about the LS430, which wasn't priced like a S/7/A8 nor did it sell (outside of a lease) for what those cars sell for with the average one going for 60-67K, not the 70K+ where the Germans reside, but then you got the size argument and what Lexus said the competition was for the LS430. Funny thing is that even one of Toyota's execs basically said that the LS wasn't thought of as a high-end sedan by U.S. buyers, after the fact of course!
Anyway without getting into all that rigamarole about pricing and leasing (why did you waste your time with that?), the E and 5-Series would have to be included too if MSRP is going to be the meter, but I don't see them as high-end.
I hope this disagreement doesn't shock you...lol. :surprise:
M
Thats great. Unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that the A6, 5, and STS offer just as many choices (minus diesel, for now). You can't just bring in the E without bringing them as well. What makes Mercedes so special that they get to bring their full size and midsize car to the HELM board and no one else does?
And if you bring in those three, you have to bring in the RL, GS, and M as well, as it wouldn't be fair to exclude them just because they dont have UHP variants, because neither do the 7, Quattroporte, and LS.
All I will say now is that I was greatly impressed with and suprised by the GS 450h. I remember being puzzled when R&T did the comparo with the 550i and one writer chose the Lexus. Now I know why. My comments pretty much mirror what psychdoc said and all I will say right now is that I would definitely consider buying it. Of course, the drive was too short as syswei pointed out but there was enough there to get a good indication. Aside from the space problems and exterior styling my biggest criticism is the light Lexus steering which essentially has more power assist than the 5-series but I think I could tolerate that considering the confidence and it has for a 4100+ lb car. That hybrid drivetrain feels so smooth and powerful, a rocket out of the gate, responsive and steady in corners. On the other hand the LS 460L fell to it's knees (roll, nose dive) when pushed. Can't comment on the VDIM because all of my hard stuff was done while braking.
Did you have the 460L in sport mode? When I got into mine, it was set to 'normal'...there's a rocker switch on the console, near the shifter.
M
You drove the LS460L? Did I miss what you said about it?
M
No, as you know the drive is very short and I wanted to concentrate on steering, handling and basic power with the default tranny.
Can't say I noticed. What I noticed about the power delivery and sound is that I always heard the engine in a steady fashion which kind of surprised me given the big dependence on the electric motor when zooming. I was expecting more of an erratic on/off type of thing. As such, I am very impressed with the technology. I need to get this car in my hands at least for a good 1/2 hour test drive. Too bad it's just impossible at this point.
M
However, I would not consider the 550i to be anything more than a large sport sedan, surely not a HELM. It's not just the price, but also, the look and the feeling.
However, using my 545i iDrive controller makes me feel as close to HELS on earth as humanly possible.
I didn't have much to say (in this post) about driving the 460L, other than the steering felt a little light. I just found the drive to be too short to offer great insights, and besides, since I gave up on waiting to drive the S550, I had nothing to compare to.
Why??? Is 0.3 seconds quicker to 60 and 1 more mile per gallon worth $10K more than the GS350? The PCS with radar cruise, 18" wheels, NAV, ML stereo, and everything else the 450h has is all available on the 350. GS450h "perks" are 400lbs. of extra weight to lug around, and a 5 cu.ft smaller trunk. The GS doesn't have much to begin with (12.7). 7.5 cu.ft is what convertibles have. Actually, my XK has more space in the trunk. A Boxster has more total luggage space than that.
I just dont get it, the 450h makes no sense.
True.
The 5-Series, however, basically comes out of the gate with a base price of well under $50K. Additionally, the emphasis is not so strong on luxury, but on performance.
The E-Class, however, has the styling, luxury, driving dynamics, and as well, even the E350 is out of the gate above $51K, with the E-BlueTec, E550, and E63 well above with a comfortable margin even before options.
I understand that the vehicle is in some ways on the borderline here. I really do. But, just because it barely crosses the line in a few criteria, doesn't mean it hasn't done so, and in other criteria it blows across the line easily.
So far, Houdini, Blkhemi, Powders and myself TagMan have agreed that the E-Class has evolved far enough to be included here. Although Brightness hasn't posted much here on this forum until these recent days, he still has a voice to be heard, and he, Merc, and Lexusguy still have reservations about including the E-Class here.
At this point, we need Dewey, Syswei, Designman, and others, if interested, to review the posts and arguments, and then give us their points of view.
If they agree that the E-Class has finally crossed the threshhold to be included, then it would seem logical to do so. If they do not, I would then not see enough of a concensus here, IMO.
So, let's just wait and get some more insight into the idea from others. It's been interesting so far.
TagMan
(The dewey proxy snuck in on me. )
Or am I wrong, that the word "Marque" is being applied more granularly, i.e. to specific models within a marque?
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Not a big deal. I'd vote to include the E class. For a majority of folks (I'll postulate), any cars that MSRP (using MSRP just for consistency, not reality) at $50k+ represent "High End." Of course, I'm just a poor workin' man with no CPA or CFA to append to my name. But I can append MCSE, FLMI, AFSI, ACS and ARA (whatever the heck they stand for?!)!!! :shades:
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
4 results for: marque
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
marque1 /mɑrk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mahrk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. letter of marque.
2. Obsolete. seizure by way of reprisal or retaliation.
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[Origin: 1375–1425; late ME < MF < Pr marca seizure by warrant (orig. token) < Gmc; see mark1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
marque2 /mɑrk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mahrk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun a product model or type, as of a luxury or racing car.
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[Origin: 1905–10; < F: lit., mark, sign, n. deriv. of marquer to mark, prob. dial. deriv. of OF merc, merche boundary, boundary marker < ON merki (from same Gmc base as march2, mark1, marque1]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source marque (märk) Pronunciation Key
n.
A model or brand of a manufactured product, especially an automobile.
[French, from Old French. See marquetry.]
(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
WordNet - Cite This Source
marque
n : a name given to a product or service [syn: trade name, brand name, brand]
WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University