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Nonetheless the 400h accelarates better and gets better mpg too.
Depending on how much one drives and future gas prices (headed higher, imho) it can be a long payback. But I think the better way to look at is that you are getting performance improvements which pay for themselves (eventually) via better mpg. Contrast that with getting a bigger engine in a traditional vehicle...you pay more up front and also use more gas over time rather than less.
M
Yep, but the more and more I look at the car its look is way too dependent on colors and wheel size, unlike the E-Class or A6. Its quickly falling from my list of good looking cars, as is this new Infiniti M. I like the more conservative, classic look of the E-Class or the A6, which isn't so conservative up front, but the rest is pure Audi, imo.
"BTW Merc how about contributing to that Sports Car thread once in a while now that you started it. What, does your screen name preclude this for some reason?"
Oops I forgot all about that topic. I'll have to check in on it.
M
I doubt it because unless you want the previous SLK you really can't purchase a complete Mercedes product badged as a Chrysler. I don't think the general public even knows what is underneath the 300 or Pacifica for that matter. As long as they use Mercedes parts and not a whole Mercedes I'm fine with this merger. They day they engineer a platform together Mercedes will suffer in the image department, imo. I think that once Mercedes gets right say in another year or so DCX will be a powerhouse. GM and Ford had better beware because Toyota might not be their only worry in the future. Chrylser is a scrappy company just like Nissan, in short when their backs are to the wall they come out swinging. The 300C has left the U.S. auto execs scratching their heads big time.
M
Formula One safety car (SLK55 AMG) and a couple SLRs. Listen at that sound!
M
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050414.004
"The Mercedes-Benz E-Class offers the best occupant safety of all passengers cars registered in the USA. That was the conclusion reached by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) after extensive accident analysis.
Between 2000 and 2003, the independent IIHS looked at how many drivers were killed in road accidents. The Mercedes-Benz E-Class obtained the best results of all the models examined: the E-Class accounts for ten fatal accidents a year for every million vehicles registered. The comparable average figure for all passenger cars is almost nine times higher than the E-Class; the figure for certain models is even over 300, according to the IIHS.
The results from the Mercedes-Benz S-Class are equally impressive. With a score of 25, the S-Class is the safest car in the “Luxury Class, very large” category.
These findings are again impressive testimony to the effectiveness of the practical Mercedes-Benz safety concept. The concept is based on analysing real-world accidents and defines vehicle safety as a whole, ranging from accident prevention by means of electronic assistance systems through occupant protection that adapts to the severity of the impact, to allowing passengers to be rescued as quickly as possible after an accident."
This paints a far different picture than the one you tried to a few pages ago, and this result is based on actual research not a Google search. To think this research was done, and the result achieved during the years in which Mercedes' reliablity was at its worst, yet they managed to accomplish this. Note, they mention both the E and S-Class as being the best in their respective categories. Seems to me that theory about Mercedes' reliability being a deadly problem goes right out the window. Here is your proof about Mercedes' safety in the real world.
M
Why do you still beat this to death? Aren't we done with this long time ago?
M
M
2 points:
1. The full study, if you look at it http://www.iihs.org/srpdfs/sr4003.pdf only included one Lexus vehicle, the RX, which by the way ranked as safer than the S-Class, though not as safe as the E. (Not bad for a vehicle with a higher center of gravity than either the S or E.) So the study you tout hardly proves that MB is safer than Lexus, or that the S is safer than the LS.
2. Since you accept IIHS data now, why don't you take a look at this:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_lux.htm . That data...from the same source you just touted...shows that the LS has lower injury rates than the S. In fact it shows that the LS is the safest luxury sedan, period (though if you include station wagons it gets beat by Audi).
So, which is safer in the real world, again?
The part of the survey I showed deals with deaths not injuries. More injuries in this case didn't translate into deaths.
For any Mercedes to be ranked highly anywhere on this survey blows your theory about Mercedes' reliability having an adverse affect on their safety out of the window. According to you MB's reliablity problems cancel out any advantage they may have in safety engineering because the engineering isn't reliable and doesn't work. That is simply bogus and isn't supported by anything. This proves that. Remember in one hand is CR who ranked the E-Class as the most unreliable this and that in America yet still manages to be safe according to IIHS. Safer than most other cars on the road.
Also I do see where the CLK is safer than the ES, the C-Class 4-door is safer than the IS, and the E is safer than the GS. Do you not see this?
"So, which is safer in the real world, again?"
Mercedes is, beating Lexus in the majority of models in the survey!
BTW, I never had anything against their data, never disputed it.
M
Mercedes is.
I just don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion using the available data. Let's say its just fine for you to throw out the injury data and focus on the death data. The death data doesn't prove anything, because it included only the E, RX, and S...and the RX ranked in the middle of the three. The only conclusion one might draw is that when it comes to death rates, Lexus is about as safe as MB. But even that conclusion is a stretch because so many Lexus and MB models aren't referenced in the death rate study (LS, GS, C, ML, etc., etc.)
As for the injury data, if you average all the IIHS MB injury data you get an injury rate of 75.6. If you average all the Lexus injury data you get 75.5.
So in summary the death rate data is inconclusive as regards MB vs Lexus, and the injury data seems to show about equal real-world safety.
I stand by my point of several weeks ago, that lack of certain safety devices in Lexus vehicles may be offset by the impact of MB’s reliability issues on safety. I never claimed that the reliability factor definitely outweighed the safety equipment factor (and if you think I did I'd like to see the quote), only that we didn’t have enough data and that the two factors might cancel each other out. Now, examination of the IIHS data seems to support the notion that overall real-world safety is about equal between the 2 brands.
The article says best results of automobiles tested......Was the Lexus tested and were does it say that?....
Since this board is about the LS and the S...and not the E or station wagons or suvs.....It seems the LS is the safest or the High End Luxury Marques.
Please move on.
Oh BTW, the 4.6L 2007 LS460 is now pegged at 350bhp, while the LS500 (lwb) is rumored at 400bhp.
Vwguild makes an interesting point here. I don't see the point of Lexus building such a car with gas prices being what they are..Of course anyone shelling out $65K+ for an LS isn't going to be bothered, but it hardly seems like a move Lexus would normally make. It would be better to use the hybrid drivetrain to achieve a "Sporty" HP rating.. I don't see the point of these HP wars. My 92 LS has 250 HP and is fast enough for me.
I had the opportunity to drive a Volvo S60 R AWD the other day. I know this isn't a "high end" marque, but I think I am starting to understand the BMW/MB side of things here. It was a very spirited driving experience and the car rode like it was on rails. Very impressive. It was a different experience alltogether from my LS430. After driving that car, I feel even more strongly our attempts at arguing which car is better is pointless. It's clear to me each manufacturer caters to a different personality set. It all depends on your buying criteria really.
I finally got a chance to drive my new LS430 since my wife wanted the snow tires taken off. (As some of you know, my wife stole my car while I was in the UK on business) The ride with the 18" tires isn't bad. I noted it was noiser than the 17"s on my old car. But it does seem to have crisper handling. Of course I probably won't drive it fast enough to really appreciate the benefits of the wider wheels. I was tempted to get the Smart Key system switched out so I could have my car all to myself. I've been driving my old 92 LS which has been a real treat. I'm wondering what it will take to get my car back.
Merc,
No real surprise on the safety results. MB's are built like tank, pure and simple. The S Class had a real solid feel to it when I saw it in person. I don't think safety has been compromised by their recent quality issues. MB's problems seem to be primarily Electronics related, and not construction. I was surprised the E did as well as the S-Class. I've been thinking alot about the E320 CDI with the fuel prices what they are. Will they offer that with 4Matic? I always wondered why we don't see more Diesel variants of high end cars here. I saw enough of them in London.
Ahh..very interesting. Just think that was just a "Volvo", wait until you try AMG Mercedes-Benz or a Motorsport BMW. A whole different world from anything from Japan.
"I've been thinking alot about the E320 CDI with the fuel prices what they are. Will they offer that with 4Matic? I always wondered why we don't see more Diesel variants of high end cars here. I saw enough of them in London."
Well diesel has a dirty name here to the uninformed. They're still stuck on what went on in the 1980s so diesels are a tough sell to people who aren't current on modern diesel's many advances. Secondly the U.S. diesel fuel supply is too "dirty" with sulfur for the current diesels to really be effective. This is scheduled to change around Aug-Sept 2006 when clean diesel is supposed to be the law. This is also why the current E320 CDI still uses the old I6 instead of Mercedes' new V6 diesel. BMW has recently announced that they will import diesels here for 2007 and Mercedes has also stated that the new M-Class will be available with a diesel for the 2007 model year. BMW in particular has a killer diesel in the form of the 535d....I6/272hp, lots of torque and nearly 545i gasoline V8 performance while getting way better mileage than the much weaker gasoline I6 530i. Mercedes can't offer the current E320 CDI in 4Matic because the I6 engine and 4Matic hardware won't fit, but for 2007 the new V6 diesel engine Mercedes just unveiled (224hp/376lb-ft) will be in the 2007 E320CDI with 4Matic being available because the V6 is much more compact. Mercedes also has a new 4.0L V8 (314hp) diesel which I'm sure will come here with the next S-Class and maybe even in the E, M, and R Classes as well. I forgot but I think I've seen where the R-Class will get a diesel also for 2007. The diesel combinations are endless once the fuel supply is cleaned up and these motors can pass Caili (and the like) emision standards.
M
MB might have to figure out how to survive on its own without Chrysler keeping it afloat financially. Deutschbank won't like this because they know that they'll have to bail MB out.
Ah, wishful thinking.
Merc, thanks for your information on the diesels. I think the E320 CDI deserves more attention. I'm really interested in a 4Matic/Diesel combo. It would be great in the New England weather and easy on the fuel. My neighbor has a VW Passat Wagon diesel that gets nearly 50 MPG. My LS430 gets about 18 MPG around town. I think MB would do well by bringing a S Class diesel to the US. A lot of my friends swear by diesel. It's a shame the press hasn't given them more attention. Hybrids may be new, but I wonder what issues will crop up with them in the long term. At least Diesel has been tried and tested.
The Volvo was an interesting experience. I've never been in a M series BMW or an AMG MB. Sounds like a lot of fun. It would be nice for a toy car. Up here in MA, I don't think you could use one of those as a daily driver. Then again, I doubt those cars are meant for the daily commute. I'm beginning to see the point, that a car purchase doesn't always have to "make sense". (In terms of JDP, CR, etc)
SV
The E320CDI exceeded it sales goal last year by a 1000 units, not sure what its doing this year. I do see them every now and then on the road, but its the old I6 engine block so its just a placeholder until the 2007 model year. Then you'll see the latest tech from all three German luxury makers and VW. Mercedes in particular has a diesel available or proposed in every bodystyle of every model they make, even the SL, SLK and CLK. Ditto for BMW. Here is a nice writeup on all of Mercedes' diesel happenings:
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050303.010/mercedes/1.html
Of particular note are the SLK320 CDI and SL400 CDI. They outperform the "petrol" (love that word) versions in every way.
M
"I'm beginning to see the point, that a car purchase doesn't always have to "make sense". (In terms of JDP, CR, etc)"
Great day in the morning....as I live and breathe! The most startling thing I've read on this board in years!
The Volvo S60R is a neat car for sure. The AMG and M cars are the pinnacle of this type, have been for years. One is the ultimate for on road work and the other superior at the track, but both with luxury of their respective brands. Every other luxury car maker in the world now wants a tuning arm or has plans to start one because of them. Mercedes, unlike BMW is determined to have an AMG version of everything they sell compared to just C and E-Class vehicles during previous years. Can you image what this new 500hp V10 M5 must drive like? Just watching it on Auto, Motor und Sport TV is shocking enough. The MB dealer here has 2 SL65 AMGs ready to go. These are 604hp cars! I've driven the current SL500 twice now and didn't want for more power so I can only imagine what doubling the SL500's hp must feel like. You should try and AMG model out, we'll start you out with an E55 or S55...lol. You like Jaguars right? Check out the XJR, it's a British express.
M
The Volvo S60R is a neat car for sure. The AMG and M cars are the pinnacle of this type, have been for years.
----------------
In my humble opinion, there is no pinnacle. Both BMW and Mercedes are undubitably the pioneers of this concept, but eventually what matters most is what matters to the buyer most. After considering many cars, I decided to go with a Volvo S60R for the following reasons: its is an AWD unlike the M's or AMG's (as far as I know), the seats are superbly comfortable and contoured to the back (unlike the torture-rack Porsche seats I currently experience...without mentioning their many other design and profit-making fallacies) and finally, the price is substantially lower than that of either the BMW's or the Mercedes. For many of those who seek to be identified by the brand they wear, go with M or AMG. BMW designs stink and Mercedes quality is like Hyudai of the past. I wouldn't be surprised if Hyundai fares better in quality now. The S60R, in contrast, is a technological marvel, and has better safety ratings (with four doors, awd, manual tranny, and a user specified suspension setting). I never thought much of Volvos in the past, but they earned my respect with the S60R. Final thought for the day...why would anyone want to drive to performance car that does not have a manual transmission? Is it: a) a matter of convenience or really b) can't drive a manual transmission and have to go through life making flimsy excuses?
Ha, ha....
When it comes to offering the widest choice of models and performance options Mercedes' AMG and BMW's Motorsport are head and shoulders above everyone else, with only Jaguar and Audi coming close. Volvo's one hard core model doesn't change this.
M
Choice of models sure but neither have (as many ways to spend your money or) as many performance options as Porsche.
What do you consider peformance options? More models? Different suspensions?
M
After my test drive of the new GS300 back in early March, I am amazed that I have yet to see a single one on the roads of status-conscious San Diego. OTOH, I have seen plenty of the new CLS500 and new 645i, even a trickle of the M45 on the roads, but no new GS. Strange....
Yea, the new GS is a beautiful car. And so is the new IS. Lexus is certainly doing something right in the styling dept. Cannot wait for the new LS.
And talking of the new LS, a Japanese colleague of mine visiting the office here in the US confirmed that Lexus will release the LS460 in MY2007 and an LS600h in MY2008. That is as good as gold, and you can take that to the bank..... I am just giddy. A LWB LS600h with a V12-like performance and a V6 fuel efficiency, that should be outstanding. What will MB/BMW have to compete ? I guess the S600/760iL maybe ???
I'm more interested honestly in the hybrid version of the LS460 gas engine. That supposedly comes out just after the LS460 at an 8-10K premium price but as a loaded car with simply a SWB or LWB option. You realize of course that they will also - inevitably - make a limited SC version of that 600H engine. But it is the 460 hybrid that will be key as it will power the big SUV's as well. Make sure you have some ample breathing room between purchase and the debut of this next LS in gas and hybrid forms. There is going to be a lot of demand and this is is going to be a lot worse than it was in 2001. I hope late March 2007 - my time frame - is sufficient.
If there is going to be a lower-priced LS hybrid, it might be based on a V6, as in the GS450h.
I'm still thinking about that GS in cypress I saw yesterday. I saw one in black today and it looked real good but the cypress with sport extras was a knockout. The GS seems to look its best in the medium color tones. I'd love to see one in flint mica.
Sortie anticipée par "Best Car" pour l'été 2006. La voiture est parait-il développée avec le souci d'un impact minimal sur l'environnement. C'est cela, oui. Enfin, Lexus, la filiale de Toyota, à peine entrée dans le club très fermé des constructeurs de prestige, entend asseoir sa position en mettant une claque aux membres historiques: une IS500 équipée d'un V8 de 5l et 400 cv avec pour cible la M3 et la C55 AMG.
source: http://www.leblogauto.com/toyota/
For the LS, Lexus has indicated they'll put a hybrid motor based on a V8 engine. That would mean that the LS600h is based on the 4.6L V8 in the base 2007 LS460. But seeing that the entry-level IS may get a 5L V8 engine, Lexus may also bring out an LS500 "GT"/AWD. BTW, the GS will also get the 4.6L but not the 600h. Whatever would happen to the 4.3L motor in the current GS430/LS430 ???
By my estimate I see
LS460 (base)
LS500 "GT" (LWB/SWB) ???
LS600h (LWB only)
Is this what you hear or different ?
LS460 - base car - 350HP and possibly optioned as a LWB car as well. But this car will mainly be the equivalent of todays custom lux $64K car priced around $66K. Whether or not they allow a dressed down premium only version of this with just the sunroof and memory features (or whatever is in todays $58K car) is up in the air.
LS600H ( I like LS460H better as a name because I think of it as the hybrid option) - This will be pretty loaded car and range from the $72K range in SWB to as high as low 80's in a LWB ultra model.
LSGT - This is your super V12 equivalent car that should arrive in 2008 as a LWB only car with everything standard including some things simply not available in the other model variants.
The GS will come iin hybrid in both the GS3 and GS4 but the latter will wait until the LS gets the hybrid.
If I were Lexus I'd bring the hybrid to the current LS in 2006 to keep the sales hot. Otherwise they will fall as many will defer buying to the 2007 car and then you also get some fight against, as well as steel some thunder from the new S-class - which will have a 6 month leadtime. But I also think MB reliability has tempered the enthusiasm the S would have normally had and I also think that new S will not be as good looking as the current car. As well I think MB is making a big mistake going back to the mammoth size of the old S-class car and putting in that i-drive equivalent technology. That is going to be a car that turns off the better half of many families - in my opinion.
It's as if it was a 7/8 scale model! When people look for a 4-door, they at least want to get their friends/business associates in the back seat. Another issue might be the utility and accessibility of the trunk design for those who play golf, etc.
That said, I was totally impressed with the build quality and cabin layout/materials. Kinda put-off by the touch screen... no lover of my favorite marque's iDrive either. Will say that the new GS430 was totally appealing save for the interior dimensions - kinda leaves us larger "athletic" guys out of the picture. LS would be the only car from Lexus I'd be comfortable in.
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