Audi A6

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .I suspect that fans of Audi will not be influenced by the reliability scores of other brands.

We all, I presume, want our cars to be more reliable.

I hope it is possible for Audi to improve reliability and not lose drivabiliy.

However, if they become as reliable as a Lexus apparently is, and simultaneously lose their "fun to drive factor" -- I would think there would be a lot of people voting with their dollars and going elsewhere to spend their $30 to $90K.

I've been wrong before, and will be again.

The magic -- heretofore -- has been that Audis were engaging driving machines.

I suspect that if Audi has a tough time over the next few years that it will have more to do with other car companies catching up with Audi in terms of content, features, drivability, AWD, etc. -- I suspect most folks don't buy Audis because of a reliability ranking -- for, as you accurately point out, they have not set the world on fire in this regard -- ever.

Indeed, the entire European car community is coming under intense criticism for their quality -- yet March 2004, was Audis most successful ever sales period, with 82,000 cars sold -- 2,000 more than their previous record.

This, considering that the A6 line is fundamentally the same thing that was showcased in 1997.

Imagine, the potential, is the way I would say it.

Reliability for many folks on a scale of 1 to 10 is in the bottom 5 (at this price range anyway).

However, the Europeans should not overlook the steady success and improvements made by the Asian and Japanese mfgs. I cannot and will not make any statements against Lexus (for example). I would be happy to have one -- if it were free.

This is, obviously, not rational -- not logical and not supported by the FOR (frequency of repair) stats often cited here about [Audi and other} European cars. I can only suggest that it is "the joy of driving" that gets me every time -- to each his / her own.

Great press -- ephemeral as it most certainly is for Audi -- will change only a very few opinions.

It is kinda like politics in the sense that all the negative stuff one side says about the other, rarely changes the true believer's minds.

Color me impressed by Audi -- also, full disclosure -- color me worried that Audi will soon be (in my mind) more or less an also ran as the number of Premium cars switching to higher performance engines and AWD keeps on growing like topsy.

dpedersen1 · May 2004

Note to the Lexus and other guys ... please close your ears.

I have heard that there is a worldwide conspiracy to make the world 'think' that these cars stink, so that those of us that are 'brave' can buy them and just enjoy the he*l out of them all the while snickering while our friends in the 'reliably boring' lexus and acura and others believe they have a reliable car.

Everyone, you can open your ears again.

ps --- I have a 2002 Audi A6 2.7T - fast, fun, and into the shop for that horribly free 10K checkup.

D

lexusguy · May 2004

I understand that Lexus cars arent for you. However, Lexus is changing their tune. Have you driven an IS300? I'm surprised you brought up Acura though. This isnt 1995. The '04 Acura TL will absolutely wax any VW or Audi product on a track. Have you driven one? Its FAST, fun, AND reliable. The '05 RL, especially the rumored 4.0L Hybrid version, looks like it aims to take that one step further. You didnt mention Infiniti either. Their relability is almost as good as Lexus and Acura, and yet, the 280hp G35 Coupe is a blast to drive. Ditto for the FX45, which will absolutely destroy a Toureg. And the ML55 AMG. And the X5. You'd need a Cayenne Turbo to beat it. The '05 RL and M45 should make the folks at Audi very worried.

Let me know if your still enjoying the hell out of your A6 when it hits 75K, and how free that maintanence still is.

Kirstie_H · May 2004

Let's be careful not to turn this into the Audi/VW vs. Lexus thread.

merc1 · May 2004

The Touareg isn't exactly playing the same game as the FX45 either. Similarly the Touareg will kill the FX45 where interior quality and ride comfort is concerned. It is also slightly more useful in the "utility" part of the SUV theme.

M

lexusguy · May 2004

Granted. The point I was trying to make is that the Japanese can match the Germans on peformance if they want to, however, based on Asian sales growth and European sales decline, they seem to understand that most of the NA market is less concerned about that.

merc1 · May 2004

True to a degree, but sales declines are happening for different reasons depending the Euro brand in question. VW's problem is old product mainly...and then of course I'm sure all the negative reliability press hasn't help either.

M

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .I personally don't mind the comparison talk on this thread -- specifically since our fellow contributor lexusguy continues to take the high-road and is attempting to appeal to our left-brain side.

As an admitted left-brain person, I also believe that most of us, regardless of our brain orientation, buy "at the moment in time of the purchase" based on a right brain "push."

Having said this, I read somewhere -- as if that makes it so -- that 75% of the buying decisions (for a car) are made prior to actually making the transaction. Perhaps another way to say that is that one is 75% certain of the purchase prior to actually doing the deal.

I suspect, therefore, that the fact that I actually did test drive an IS300 and found it simply "OK" will, as noted in a prior post, not shock anyone and will also not change anyone's mind. I would, however, take an IS300 if it were given to me -- to further clarify my position on this particular car -- I would not really be terribly interested in keeping the car, however.

I am an all-wheel-drive bigot. There, I said it.

I understand about all the fine AWD brands that are rushing to be where Audi has been for over 20 years now. I also agree that Audi has done such a poor job marketing AWD to the broader potential customer base, that most people think of Subaru and probably even Jaguar before they think of Audi. Even those cute angels flying next to the wheels of the BMW X5 would probably evoke more of a "recognition" response favorable to BMW's AWD prowess. Heck, I even remember the wet tongue on a frozen pole [sic] campaign that BMW put forth to adverstise their 3"x" series cars.

Coming soon, of course the BMW 5 AWD and as noted by lexusguy, I think, more AWD Lexus offerings as well as the afforementioned Acura RL for 2005. While this is not a comparo thread, if you'll follow this train of thought for a moment, it will, ultimately come full circle back to Audi's 2005 A6.

The Speed Channel was just "a-gushing" over the new Chrysler 300C this weekend as they presented their 30 minute drool drive of this new car (they did the same thing, FWIW, with the Audi RS 6 and S4 -- this is not a criticism of the Speed channel by any means). The car was literally meant to "apparently" suggest to the driver and on-lookers that this new beast could be comfortable [being compared] with the Audi A8 and the BMW 7. It was also said that the car would seem to have the "presence" to be assumed a $45,000+ vehicle (which, according to the 2005 pre-order guides, is about where the new A6 for 2005 will be, pre-discount).

Now, hold on just a minute? Is this statement meant to praise the Chrysler or dis the Audi and the BMW? I hope it is the former -- but the point is: this got my attention and does make me at least want to test drive one of these cars (in AWD flavor of course -- fourth quarter 2004).

Now comes the new STS Cadillac with a Northstar V8 and AWD and Magnaride, bla bla bla. Then the Volvo S60 Type R -- and the list goes on. The target seems to be either the price point of the Audi or at least an attempt to imitate (just look at the press releases) "German" mid to large Premium Sports sedans. The Chrylser is said, inaccruately by DC salespeople, to be a Mercedes E class. The truth of the matter is that the suspension and 5spd auto and ESP are the first beneficiaries of the marriage between MB and Chryco -- one may argue that the 300C has improved upon the E-class mechanicals. One may, I won't -- for the time being at least.

OK, so the point of all this is the car companies of the world smell opportunity in imitating the RWD prowess of BMW and Mercedes (hardly ever -- thus far -- do the companies messages claim to emulate anything from the Pacific side) and the AWD prowess (and fit and finsh) of Audis.

As a fan, a long term fan, of Audi, I have expressed my concern that Audi (in the US at least) could be facing some difficulties when "all the premium brands" can claim "me too" when it comes to AWD. That, like it or not, was THE differentiating feature of Audi.

The only way to compete in this battle is to keep everything that was "Audiness" (that is good) and acquire everything that is (BMW and/or Mercedes) that it good. I suspect, although I cannot find it written anywhere, that acquiring the legendary reliability of some Premium Japanese brands would also be at least a goal.

As I noted before, I seriously doubt that Audi would find itself with a flood of Lexus converts even if it "magically" was perceived to be in the same class -- with respect to reliability. According to Audi and Audi dealers reliability generally does not even enter into the purhcase decision. The reason is simple: 100% of all issues with Audis are covered for 4 years or 50,000 miles. A siginificant majority of Audis are leased for 39 or fewer months. Other than gasoline, plates and perhaps tires (especially if your new Audi came with UHP summer tires) -- this is virtually a cost-free transaction beyond gasoline, insurance and the monthly lease payment. The potential ability for the car to be virtually trouble free for 150,000 just doesn't enter into the decision since most folks who get one of these cars (Premium near-lux or lux class) don't keep them that long.

What will make the decision, once again, is "the driving experience" and probably several right brained influencers.

Now, there are two "expert" sources that are claiming the new 2005 A6 really is a "contender" -- the current Car and Driver and a glowing test report with the headline "Move Over BMW and Mercedes!" in the May issue of Car Magazine. This latter test report, is by Georg Kacher, who, over the years, I have come to regard as one of Audi's most critical Automotive journalists. Several of his articles and mentions of the RS 6 even, have often concluded with the sentiment "nice try" or "close but no cigar." Often, when he writes comparison reports, Audis come in second or third. Rarely have they come in first place.

This time, Kacher, exclaims that the new A6 "drives well enough to barge in to 5-series and E-class terriory." Strong praise from a journalist who, as mentioned, has made a career (IMO) out of picking every one of Audis nits.

Once again, none of this will, probably, influence those who favor the Japanese Premium offerings from -- well you know, Lexus, Infinity, Acura -- and I assume this new Audi will be only ever so slightly improved in the reliability dept (one can only hope).

But it probably won't matter -- the Audi A6 (current flavor) is "the safest" of the top 25 safe cars and is a bargain to boot. The fact that the current S-Line A6 2.7T is an able bodied performer against the 5 series both when price is not considered and when it is, tells an important story since the current A6 is from 1997 and the new BMW, well, is NEW.

markcincinnati · May 2004

Finally, statistics and liars, we all know about them -- so here is a statistic (and I am NOT accusing anyone of being the latter, BTW): March 2004 was Audi's best sales month ever -- they sold 82,000 cars (2,000 more than at any other time). And, this with an arguably old product line (excluding the A8, of course).

Lexusguy is probably right now figuring out how to get into a new for 2005 A6 -- NOT!

lexusguy · May 2004

Hahaha. Very good points overall. When friends ask me for recommendations, the first question out of my mouth is always "how long do you want to have it around?". For people that dont hang on to their cars more than 48 months, I often recommend M-B first, as with the industries strongest residual, combined with free scheduled maintanence, leasing a new Benz could almost be considered economical. Scheduled maintanence on Lexus cars is NOT free. Only the first visit. However, since I keep my cars to 150K or more, they make good sense to me.

Believe it or not, I actually plan to take out an '05 A6 for a spin as soon as I get a chance. While I havent bought a German brand since '90, being such a car nut, I have to see what their new cars can do, hence I've already driven a 545i, (which I really didnt like) and an '04 E55 several times (which I love). A sedan that can run with a Z06 is my kind of car. By the way mark, what do you think of the interior of the new A6? I have to admit from the pictures I've seen, I found it to be a BMW style cold, teutonic look. Actually to my eyes, it looks blatantly ripped from the new 5. I always thought the interior of the previous cars was one of the best in any German car, though the new A8 is better. What happened with the new A6?

markcincinnati · May 2004

I have not seen one up close and personal -- the first pics made me feel as you have said.

However, both Car and Drive and Car Magazine virtually are drooling over the new A6. C & D, BTW, did think the new 5 series BMW had a less than compelling interior, FWIW.

I have driven several of the BMW's -- not the new 545i. I was very impressed with the 740i Performance Package equipped version and, frankly was pretty impressed with the 330xi (although I wish it had a stick) -- see my comments re test drives over on the A4 board here on Edmunds. We are currently thinking the A4 1.8T quattro 6spd manual with the Ultra Sport package is the one to beat -- especially for the money. It would, based on OUR biases, blow the IS300 away -- but perhaps not in 0-100kph times. But, here in Cincinnapolis, we have "weather" -- not usually heavy winters, understand, as we are just about as far south as possible (for OHIO) -- but we have lots of slushy, icky, icy, hard packed snow and lots of rain in April and May.

The quattros we have been enjoying for almost twenty years now, totally change the equation for us.

A rear wheel drive IS300 or BMW 330 would be helpless about 5 months of the year here. So, despite some impressive numbers, the IS300 and RWD 330 are strickly low performance. For, if you can't go, your performance is low (you can quote me, it is so poetic, don't you think?)

Anyway, the quattro system and Audis in particular aren't perfect, I will not debate that they are -- they aren't. But, based on our criteria and our 4 trips to the Holy Land (Ingolstadt) for the Audi Driving School experiences, we are "hard core" quattro/AWD bigots.

Audis intent within the next cycle to change from 50 50 torque split to 40 60 (rear bias) just makes the entire Audi experience all the more sweet. The FSI engine, too, looks like a winner -- and, my only issue is no stick in the new A6's--but, I wouldn't have that choice anywhere else (that I know of) except BMW and when I configure a BMW and a "like" A6, I, like my wife, keep coming back to the question: "where is the $10,000 upcharge for the BMW hidden?"

Indeed, you can configure a 530i and an Audi A6 4.2 sport for about the same money -- as nice as the 530 is, it will be RWD and as nice as the 3.0 enigine is, well the 4.2 in the Audi is sooooo sweeeeet sounding.

Now, I know not the $ differential in the upcoming 530xi and the A6 3.2 quattro with 6spd tip (the BMW presumably by special order will have the availability of a 6spd manual) -- but if history repeats itself, the BMW will again, comparably equipped be about $10,000 more or will be able to be $$$ compared more appropriately with the A6 4.2 Q for 2005. I know this will raise the ire of the BMW lovers, but, for the money (with the criteria WE desire) BMW simply stands for Beauty, Money and Wealth. At age 50, I am looking to compromise a little bit and keep some of that wealth in MY pocket, not BMW's.

So, odd as this may seem, the Audi is a value proposition and, as far as I am concerned, especially with the test reports of the new A6 being so well, gushingly positive, vis a vis BMW, not much,if any, of a performance trade off either.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I may totally change my mind and go with a Chrysler 300C AWD after I drive both of them. But, ya know what? I gotta at least try the new Cadillac V8 STS AWD too -- as long as we're in this $40K to 50K range.

Drive it like you live!

lexusguy · May 2004

I liked driving older BMW's as well. The old 540i is a very nice car. The new one isn't. The absolutely ruined the steering feel. Its somewhat like what happened with the '01 330, when BMW increased the power steering boost to make it "easier", and all the enthusiasts cried foul, except 100x worse. Its not just overboosted. There's like no feel at all. It behaves at the limit like my XKR, just with less body roll. There's absolutely no indication of where the limit actually is, just all of a sudden, the rear end breaks loose and starts sliding. As C&D said about the new 6 (which uses the same new steering system) the "ultimate driving simulator".

bjbird2 · May 2004

Since you mentioned the Chrysler 300C, in the June 04' Automobile Magazine, Jamie Kitman says "It is, I'm thinking, the best American road car there's ever been, a Hemi powered highway star that starts at a wildly competitive $32,995. It's a wake-up call to luxury brands the world over..."

The same issue has VW in the news section stating that "VW's glory days are over; as sales stagnate and profits tumble, the companies future product plans become all the more crucial." They show the new Concept C showcar, which is supposed to be close to the next generation Passat.
I have a Passat, and I like the car very much, It's one of the most enjoyable cars to drive that I've owned. I just don't like having to spend so much time in the shop, even though the work is all under warrantee. I'm convinced that VW/Audi would dominate the market if their quality was as good as their product designs.

I'm surprised the G35 AWD sedan hasn't been included in this discussion, since it's every bit a competitor in this class. The only shortcoming is the interior, which is a common complaint with all Nissan automobiles.

lexusguy · May 2004

Thats kept me out of a G35. Supposedly its getting a rework for the '05 model year, but Nissan has been mum about it.

927 · May 2004

I would like to talk to other 2001-03 Audi A-6 or S-6 owners in California who have had repeated brake problems.

pat · May 2004

Instead of posting phone numbers, why not just make your email address public in your profile and ask to exchange emails.

That way only a legitimately logged in member can obtain a way to contact you. Publicly posting phone numbers - or email addresses - is an open invitation to be flooded with annoying messages.

Hope this helps - email me with any questions.

markcincinnati · May 2004

My e-dress is already posted.

Having had many Audis, in particular a 2000 and a 2001 A6 4.2, which together required 9 new sets of rotors (not each, together, mind you) in combined milage of under 60,000 miles, I am happy to provide whatever assistance I can about these brakes, which, when speaking of rotors, were "born warped" -- only the last set replaced on my 2001 did not have the shudder and vibration issue.

ctorrey · May 2004

Similar to markcincinnati, my '01 A6 4.2 with 19k miles is on its 3rd set of front rotors - and they need to be replaced! It's well documented that rotors are a problem with the A6 line. If the car is under warranty, bring it in and get new ones for free. If not, buy a set of quality aftermarket rotors.

Sorry, I can't offer much help other than a sympathetic ear.

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .my local Audi dealer went so far as to buy one set of cross drilled rotors for me 2001 A6. However, the rotors were OEM rotors that had been cross drilled and of course they lasted about 15 minutes.

The final -- the 9th set of 4 rotors and all new pads, and a four wheel alignment and perhaps a prayer ritual, for all I know, seemed to have cured the issue -- however, I ordered a new, 2003 allroad and only kept the 2001 A6 4.2 for about 5 months beyond the final final set of brakes.

My 2003 allroad has just hit 30,000 miles and I had the brakes inspected while the Audi dealer was replacing my tires -- Front remaining pad life 60%, rear 50%. The brakes on this 2003 allroad are hardly "super strong" but they have been essentially without any issues.

Who knows what the 2000 and 2001 (perhaps the 2002, for all I know) rotor issues were -- but I'll bet Audi AG stopped using that supplier or made them cough up thousands of free rotors -- man what a pain.

Now, having said all of this, I will state and re state and re re state, as I have done all over here for about two years:

My recent Audis (excluding my 2003) have had two annoying problems -- don't get me wrong, I did not appreciate these "features" whatsoever. But, except for the fact that these defects were on cars costing north of $50,000, I term them annoying.

I do not forgive these problems, but I do not think they rose to a level of issue that would sour me on the Brand.

Problem #1 - Brake Rotors, pull into the dealership about every time I got a fill up of gas and say, "while you're at it, just replace the rotors." I think I changed brakes more often than oil.

Problem #2 - Tiptronic transmission lag. This, had not there been a stick shif option available in the allroad, MIGHT have been sufficient motivation to NOT buy an Audi. Indeed, if you have an Audi with an automatic transmission, I would like to tell you that other folks have actually gone so far as to sign a petition more or less "hinting" at a class action lawsuit against Audi of America for this disappointing transmission.

It frankly amazes me that Audi sells any cars with this funky transmission "feature."

bellaisalabdog · May 2004

Re; Audi 2005 bodystyle...Sooooo...disappointed..the front grill is awful looking. What happen?...

markcincinnati · May 2004

I luv it, I'll have yours! (Monty Python, Spam, Spam, Spam)

Seriously, eye of the beholder. I think the new BMW's look like Pontiacs -- I don't care for them at all. The Audis, to me, keep looking better and better all the time.

You can't always get what you want.

lexusguy · May 2004

Persionally Im not a fan of the giant A6\A8 6.0 grill. It does look better than the 5\7 series though.

demars581 · May 2004

My dad is interested in the current A6 3.0 quattro. What do most owners of this car average with MPG? regular or premium? Is the car okay to use with regular?

Thanks

markcincinnati · May 2004

Premium is required.

Average fuel economy is probably -- at best -- in the low 20's. If you used regular, the engine management system would attempt to compensate and your milage would drop as you and the computer attempted to make up for the loss of power provided by consuming more gas.

The new 05 A6 with an FSI 3.2L engine (Fuel Stratified Injection) is rumoured to require regular -- it may provide no benefits when fueled with premium. I'm trying to see if there is any benefit to using high octane juice in the FSI.

The 3.0 engine needs premium to make adequate power.

nyca · May 2004

The current Autoweek has a review. Another one here:

http://www.audiworld.com/features/tests/2005a6.html

Yes, the grill is large, but from the photos I've seen, if you select a color that does not have a sharp contrast with the grill outline - it tends to make it look smaller as it blends in. The silvers and grey colors will work best.

I worry most about the MMI, I still don't know if I want to use a mouse to operate the radio and the HVAC.

The new A6 and new M45 are both looking good.

lexusguy · May 2004

That still looks like a honkin schnoz to me, silver or not. From what I understand, MMI is supposed to be a lot better than iDrive... but I still dont understand why Germany absolutely refuses to try touch screens.

davking · May 2004

They probably can't stand the idea of all those fingerprints all over the screen.

nyca · May 2004

Big grills are "in", look at the new Chrysler 300.

steher · May 2004

Come on, your attitude towards Audi of making it bad becomes boring...
I could tell you neverending stories of Lexus' meaning on the european market:It's just around zero...
But that doesn't mean, that it is a bad car; it just has the problem of being a outsider on the continent of the big Luxury-car-makers. You won't see many Lexus or Cadillacs here in Germany, but that wouldn't be any reason for me to make it bad, though lexus' styling reminds me of the word 'boring'...

Kirstie_H · May 2004

Let's try to stick to discussing the A6 here - thanks!

markcincinnati · May 2004

. . .well kirstie, I understand wanting to keep the 2005 A6 discussion as pure as possible -- but there does seem to be some "natural" inclination to discuss any car at points in time in comparison to other cars. I know that there are several folks that participate here all over Edmunds, as do I, who will not or cannot find any merit in any car other than their brand. To a certain extent, I have been one of them -- although I would hardly say one should go on the Audi board, especially as a non-Audi owner, and feel that's the place to bash it.

As I have, for almost the first time in my life, starting shopping for cars OTHER THAN Audis -- I have been getting quite an education. The look of the new Audi, like almost everything relating to styling is highly subjective. While "you" dear reader may differ, I suspect it is acceptable to share your like or dislike of the styling of the product -- most notably if this is a product you would actually consider buying. Bashing the XYZ's look when it is never going to be a car you would seriously consider buying, is, frankly, a waste of good cyber - ink. I prefer debating with people who have questions and or knowlege about a product [that they actually have or may acquire].

I really do want to know what potential buyers (or if there are any actual owners, somewhere) of the 2005 A6 are thinking. And, I want to discuss what other cars they are seriously considering.

In our recent test drives, we don't really even bother testing a car that we would only take if it were, for all intents and purposes, free.

I cannot personally discuss the merits of long term Lexus, Chrysler or Subaru ownership -- but I have taken several Lexus cars for either test drives or rented one while on a trip outside of my city. I can also relate some of the "journalistic" writings about some of the cars that are often mentioned in the same breath.

Personally, I care not what CR says about a car -- reliability is certainly important, but thus far, in perspective it is not a big deal to know that the arbitrary capillary of the SXX 9000 will go 125,000 miles between cleanings -- I've never had a car past 50,000 miles.

However, perhaps this time, reliability will be a bigger issue -- or perhaps with new technology cycles coming ever and ever faster, it will become even of lower priority.

My friend bought a new Acura, never, and I mean never, changed the oil -- he just added to it and changed the filter once or twice -- then when it got to 50,000 miles he had the oil changed twice at one of those quickie oil change places within a day or two of each other (so the engine oil was no longer pitch black), had it detailed and the interior leather buffed and traded it in on a new BMW, which he "repeated the maintenance regimine" on. He felt that cars are like Bic Pens -- use them, use them up -- get a new one. Frankly, his cars looked nice and although I knew better -- at 50,000 miles they seemed to run as if only slightly used.

The point about these boards is that they are the manifesto for a contemporary commerce model.

I want feedback, since we're on the 2005 A6 board, about the power of the 3.2L 255HP engine and 6speed tiptronic transmission: how is it? will I miss my 2.7T 6spd manual in terms of acceleration, ease of use, milage and other drivability issues and concerns? Will options be so packaged that I will be forced to get 3 "packaged" options when all I want is the Sat Nav and sunroof?

And, the pricing -- I've read $40K to start, I've read $45K -- is there any pricing information available yet? Any real people's driving impressions -- GK from Motor Trend is a journalist, and sure I want to read what he says, but I'd rather know what the people here on Edmunds.com think.

Anyway, I do agree, let's keep the bashing to a minimum -- and that's not to say we shouldn't discuss our problems with our specific 2005 Audi A6's -- it is, however, a bit too early to go down that discussion topic, don't you think?

And, having neither driven (nor seen in person) either the Acura RL or the Audi A6, but having read a ton about both of them -- I am certainly keenly interested in testing both and reporting back to y'all my impressions.

I'll try to keep the Audi bashing and Acura praising on this town hall group discussion to a minimum and vice versa on the Acura board.

I suspect that is what Hermann was asking.

Now, since I have discoverd that Hermann actually lives in "the Holy Land" Ingolstadt, I am anxious to read any driving impressions he may have of the 05 A6.

BTW, a visit to the Audi factory and the grounds including the Audi museum, might even make our friend lexusguy appreciate (or at least dislike less) Audi. My wife and I have been through the plant, some six times (5 of them with an English speaking guide) -- the place is very impressive. . .as are the cars.

Hermann -- regail us, if you will, with your driving impressions of the new A6!

Kirstie_H · May 2004

Don't worry - It was just a gentle reminder lest we veer way off course! Some comparison is natural, but we should try to keep the comparison related to the Audi A6 rather than, say, BMW v Cadillac. Thanks!

steher, you might want to remove your post with your e-mail address. Spammers mine these boards for e-mail addresses, and your mailbox will overflow. That's why it's not a great idea to post your address on any publicly-accessible forum. Just hit the delete button next to your message after you've made contact.

markcincinnati · May 2004

We have had three TT's -- one 180HP quattro, manual transmission, two 225HP quattros, also manual transmission.

No issues, period, other than the 2001 came with tires that were so bad, that at 11,000 miles Audi "donated" $800 toward a set of new ones.

The TT's have been my wife's cars and her favorites ever -- she drove a VW R32 and loved the engine and transmission combination, but thought the car, overall, was not as refined -- but it was almost $12,000 less than her Audi.

My 2003 2.7T allroad 6spd manual with all USA options except Tiptronic, has 30,000+ miles on it and it too has been mostly flawless, tire wear, again being the main challenge. The first set of tires (Michelin Pilot Sport A/S size 245 x 50 x 17") lasted 19,000 miles, the second set about 9,000 miles (245 x 45 x 18" Falken Azenis ST115's) but that was due to damage, not wear. I cureently have a new set of 245 x 45 x 18" Cooper Zeon 2XS tires on it -- and it is as good as new. Other than oil and filter changes every 7,500 miles with synthetic oil 0W-40 (Mobil1), I have had NO problems with this car at all beyond the defective On*star unit -- and it was defective the first day of ownership and a few days later was replaced with very minor issues as far as I was concerned.

The ONLY complaint about the allroad is the lack of the full sat navigation system that is avail in Europe and my sensation that the brakes are just adequate -- not that I have had any problems with them. They just don't seem very robust, to match the rest of the car.

If they were going to carry the allroad forward, which they are not, beyond May 2005, I could easily see myself in another one -- it is THAT good!

boomsama · May 2004

I read a lot of edmunds material about the Allroad, and it seemed like it was just what i wanted. Unfortunately, when i took it for a test drive, the ride was a bit too harsh for my liking. If it was better, I may well have bought one.

markcincinnati · May 2004

To each his/her own department: my only other "complaint" if I were to characterize it as a complaint, is that I find the allroad too plush, too sofa-like, too comfy. Indeed, I added the sport rear anti-swaybar and rubber bushing to stiffen the response by some 20% and had the air suspension lowered by 12mm which further compresses the springs to stiffen the ride, all in an effort to get MORE sport and LESS lux out of the allroad.

You say tomato. . .

Harsh? Naaahhhh!

preekies · May 2004

I cannot sem to get more than 25000 from set of tires for my 2002 a6 2.7t .factory set was dunlop9090 and now I have dunlop sp5000 which after 17000 only have about 8000 left .also they are not wearing like the 9090 and are getting noisy.Any suggestions .

Anyone out ther done more than 100000 on there 2.7t .Lets see who has the highest mileage.

cdnpinhead · May 2004

You're asking a question (the second one), the answer to which I've been interested in for some time.

As to your first question, many people who drive cars in this class swear by Michelin Pilot All Seasons. They're expensive, but grippy, quiet and long-lasting. Mine are great.

If you get any response at all to your question regarding 100K+ mileage experience on this board, I'll be stunned. This group mostly leases and takes pride in dumping vehicles at far less than half the mileage you're asking about.

Along with you, I'll be awaiting an answer (or two, if we're lucky).

preekies · May 2004

I have 42000 on my 2002 2.7t .Very reliable and never had a problem.

Some 2000 2.7t 4 years old .20000 a year plus could be coming up to 100000 miles .

Is there anyone out there .Iam interested in turbo life and long term reliability issues .

boomsama · May 2004

heh, well i could feel every single bump in the road. Wasn't very comfortable.

markcincinnati · May 2004

My wife and I started our Audi adventures in 1977 and have had between us 27 of them. If you got 25,000 miles out of a set of tires, you win a prize. With the exception of my 1978 Audi 5000, all of my Audis have had whatever was at the time the Ultra High Performance or Max Performance summer only tires.

My Michelin Pilot Sport A/S's made it 19,000 before the road noise became overwhelming on multi hundred mile across Ohio trips.

My wifes 2001 TT, the tires were GONE at 11,000 miles. My 2001 A6 4.2 SPORT the first set of Pirellis were useless after less than 9,000 miles.

Sometimes the tread was "OK" visually, but generally rain traction and noise levels crept in pretty much around the sub-20,000 mile marker.

We have even taken to buying aftermarket UHP All Season tires -- and they have relatively short shelf life, so to speak, compared with the tire milage I remember when I was growing up (north of 30,000 miles was EXPECTED).

If you got 25,000 miles out of your tires, they were properly inflated and the car was kept in alignment -- write a letter to someone -- BRAGGING about your high milage.

The UHP and Max tires on these cars are great for handling -- farily poor on milage.

You've done well.

lexusguy · May 2004

That's the difference between Germany and Japan. A Toyota Highlander will soak up most road irregularities..but it will soak up a lot of "road feel" along with it.

kirby2010 · May 2004

I have just about 50K on my 2001 2.7T w/6-speed. A couple minor problems - nothing that could not be fixed by appointment. For example, I recently had a cracked nylon rail -- a guide in the front passenger window. The glass needed some help to roll up. I don't know what caused it (don't care). We had one of the worst winters ever here and it could have been the weather. I had it replaced during the scheduled service. I'm on my original Continental tires. I'll probably replace them in the fall. They'll certainly make it through the summer. I definitely drive the car the way it was designed to be driven - especially on the highway. Some of the daytime driving is limited to two-lane country roads at <40mph. I don't know if I'll keep it another three or four years. I'm considering a 2004 or even a 2005 A6. It's the perfect car for me. My wife has a 2004 Passat. I haven't anything happen that would discourage me from going back to Audi.

tom1996 · May 2004

The writeup by Edmunds says that the 2005 A6 will be 5 inches longer. That makes it 198 inches! Can that be true? It will make for a tight fit when I replace our 2001 A6 with a 2005 model.

bmwccc · June 2004

Mark, I have been reading a lot of your comments and it seems you have purchased more audis in your life than girls I have dated ( jk ).

Anyway, wanted to ask you or others a few questions about the upcoming models. I am purchasing something at the end of this year and have narrowed the search to BMW and Audi.

However, I have been reading on posts back 1-6 months of the problems people have been having with brakes / rotors / Tiptronic Transmission / Tires / and Turbo Lag.

I realize the 05' is losing the Turbo and offering a V6 or V8 but are they keeping the Tiptronic or will it be CVT?

What is the difference between CVT and Tiptronic?

If they are keeping Tiptronic, has the issue been fixed?

If they do not offer a manual transmission, in your opinion, what would be the best choices to make for the A6?

Thanks

Chris from California

bmwccc · June 2004

Sorry, forgot the biggest question to the above.

Besides the horspower difference, what would be the pros and cons of getting a 2004 A6 4.2 2004 now vs a 2005 A6 3.2 or 4.2 in Nov/Dec?

Thanks in advance for the comments!

Chris

markcincinnati · June 2004

The presence of turbo lag in an Audi A6 2.7T is, I'm certain, real. It is virtually undetectable.

Tip-lag or DBW (drive by wire) lag is very much noticable. Many cars with such systems (even if they are not called Tiptronic -- a brand name) have similar issues. Apparently software improvements and other [hardware] improvements have reduced the lag to a greater or lesser degree over the past couple of years.

The new US bound Audis will have 6speed Tiptronics which have not eliminated the problem but have even further reduced it. The lack of a turbo in the new 05 Audi A6 is not an issue one way or the other that will effect tip-lag, to the extent that it will, almost certainly, be further reduced from its current fairly low levels.

Tiptronics are "conventional" albeit very sophisticated automatic "stepped" transmissions. When you are driving them, smooth as they are, you will have a distinct sense of 1st gear, 2nd gear, 3rd gear, etc. With 6 forward speeds, one of the advantages -- even with the stepped transmission -- is that the engine can be always fairly close to its power sweet spot. I remember 2 speed auto transmissions which basically could stay in first gear to 55 MPH and then would upshift. Three speed transmissions carried the sweet spot forward substantially from a 2 speed -- ditto 4, 5 and now 6 speed autos.

The CVT -- constant velocity transmission -- does not "feel" stepped -- it is much more of a linear, curve from 0 to speed. The CVT has at least 6 targeted transmission speed equivalents, but unlike a tiptronic it does not have discreet gears -- it is kind of like a spinning top -- at the pointy end there is greater power than at the broad end. There are excellent write ups of the "MULTI-TRONIC" transmission all over the web.

Currently Audi does not offer any quattro with Multi-tronic. I have driven a current A6 FWD 3.0 Multi-tronic. It is smooth and somewhat disconcerting -- as it lacks shift points.

The new A6 with either engine should perform fairly well -- the technological tour de force is the FSI 3.2L engine. Fuel Stratified Injection (AKA direct injection).

More power and effeciency is the upshot of this technology which uses higher compression engines and forces fuel into the cylinders at much higher pressure. This technology has the capability of being "lean burn" and to a certain extent will be in the new Audi. The reason, or "A" reason it is not a fully realized lean burn engine has to do with the quality of our fuel here in the US -- it has too much sulphur in it to permit the FSI to reach its full potential.

My current -- no test drives to base this on -- serious looks at the north of $49K cars is, presently focused on the Audi A6 3.2 and the Acura RL 3.5 SH-AWD. In the price range, noted, I know of nothing that appears as if it will even come close -- although there is a fellow poster, "lexusguy" who seems to know quite a bit about the Lexi cars (plural of Lexus, perhaps?) for 2005 and I believe there will be an AWD $50K Lexus that might be a contender.

I love the BMW's (but not the looks of the new 5 or 7 series -- think Pontiac Bonneville) in almost every way but styling and price. I keep looking in the glove compartment of the BMW's for the extra $6,000 to $10,000 they seem to command over a comparably equipped Audi (and now probably Acural RL) -- in my humble opinion, that is, there is no BMW that is priced equivalent to its content and driving experience. The new A6, supposedly, has narrowed the driving experience even further.

Today, knowing what is coming in the new A6, I would -- personally -- have difficulty not waiting for a new model. But a 2004 high zoot A6 4.2 sport with all options will be priced comparably with a 530i and will have an even more aggressive lease program.

If you are shopping NOW, you may find the A6 4.2 deal too hard to pass up financially.

On the other hand, the new technology in the new 2005 looks like a major step forward -- but you can bet the deals will be no where near the same on the new 2005s regardless of when you opt to purchase.

Thus it always goes, the 2004 A6 4.2 is the last of the last generation -- it will be priced to move off the lot. The 2005 A6 will be the beginning and will command a higher premium for at least two years.

The A6 4.2 for 2004 fully loaded, therefore, may be almost a steal.

It will certainly price out less, per month, than a new 2005 A6 3.2L V6.

You have perhaps sufficient information to form some opinions.

Reliability of my 2003 allroad has been fantastic, but I am only at 31,000 miles. My 2000 and 2001 A6's need a tank of gas and new brake rotors with about equal frequency. This "flaw" has, apparently, been cured.

Also, the 2004 tiptronic in an A6 4.2 has several upgrades that, for all I know, may have virtually erased the tip lag problem.

The only 6sp tip I have driven was in an S4 and the thing was "on boil" right now -- i.e., no lag that I could tell.

Hope this helps.

bmwccc · June 2004

Mark, thanks for the info. I have no interest in the Lexus and am only interested in the Audi, BMW and also considered the 2005 Acura TL. I also cannot stand, I repeat, cannot stand the new BMW look. TRhe Acura is going to have 300hp AWD; i figure it is worth a look.

Well, I guess the question I need to figure out is if the 6spd Tiptronic in the 2005 A6 is worth a little more cash than the 5spd 2004 A6.

I also understand the suspension or handling on the 2005 model will also be increased by 34% over the 2004 model.

I know this is only your opinion, but am going to ask out of curiosity. If money was not a huge factor, would you wait for the 2005 and throw down for the A6 3.2 or 4.2 or get the 2004 A6 4.2? Before you answer, consider, body style changes, Tiptronic 5spd vs 6spd, $ difference, increased horsepower for the 2005 over the 2004, increased handling or suspension of the 2005.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Chris

rayainsw · June 2004

"My current -- no test drives to base this on -- serious looks at the north of $49K cars is, presently focused on the Audi A6 3.2 and the Acura RL 3.5 SH-AWD." - Mark

Given up on the new STS AWD?
- Ray
Curious . . .

markcincinnati · June 2004

Not entirely. But it is now in a poor third place. I got my "insider's" information kit from Cadillac and an e-mail. Equipped as I think I would want it, the STS will be just south of $60K -- seems like it has a case of the BMW syndrome. Who says high end cars cannot also be high value. I had a $72K Audi A8 -- first year, early adopter. I did get a good lease rate, but the car dropped almost 10% in MSRP over the following year or two after I got it, plus increased the content.

While I do not regret my A8 and have had several $50 - 53K cars, perhaps the recession, my age, my preferences for European travel have changed my priorities somewhat. And this is just ME.

But, I am looking for price to be on par with content (and yes yes yes I know that is somewhat like styling, in that what is high value content to you may not be to me). The Crest or the BluePropeller are not, IMHO, content -- they are image.

Been there done that -- BMW, for one, impresses me greatly (not crazy about the current styling, but nonetheless) -- but the price makes me almost always say "who are they kidding?"

Frankly, the Acura test drive (of a TL, not even the new RL) has altered my thinking somewhat -- somewhat -- in that I thought the $37K TL was way the heck better than the $44K 330i we also test drove. The torque steer of the TL was a negative, but the rear wheel drive of the 330i (here in Cincinnati) was even more of a turn off.

My BMW driving friends call their cars, their Summer cars -- opting to drive SUV's about 10 weeks of the year due to traction issues that all the electronic gizmos to date have not conquered.

My point pertaining to the Caddy is just that at $51+K it seemed like a contender -- plus $7K to $8K makes it seems overpriced.

And the honorable mention still goes to the as yet unavailable Chryco 300C AWD -- assuming it is @ $39,995 MSRP loaded. But, again, I've not driven one, and am going to wait for the AWD version to do so -- but there is still that Chryco dealer problemo that I just have difficulty swallowing.

rayainsw · June 2004

"the STS will be just south of $60K "

Mark 

I presume that you priced a V8 1SG AWD  what other / additional options placed the price that high?

And  does MSRP pricing exist / published for an 'equivalent' A6?

And what would the A6 equipment be?

Thanks,
- Ray
Still not seeing a Build Your . . . option for the STS on their web site.

Audi A6

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