Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Just catching up and chiming in:

    I agree that the LTD package does seem high at $2700. The split moonroof is nice, but that, plus leather and power seats. Hmmmm.

    I was gung-ho about a GT Ltd. Wagon, but this makes me think twice. I'll probably still end up getting the Ltd. but it makes one wonder if there are any other "options" that Subaru hasn't finalized yet in that package.

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually Ray/Rob, the base Legacy 2.5i does have 4 level heated seats. That's why I think it's a great value. The ones with power don't gain memory positions anyway.

    The LTD package seems overpriced, IMO. OK, the moonroof is worth $1200. That's really the only item I'd want from it.

    Climate control is of no value to me, look at how many Forester XT owners complain about that. You might even argue it's a disadvantage if it doesn't work any better than the F-XT's system.

    Leather seats? $900 for Katskins installed.

    So I see a $2100 value, maybe that will be the difference in invoice prices, we'll see.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Anyone else notice they didn't mention "plus freight" on the need-desire site?

    Oopsy!

    And they e-mailed notices to folks that registered, like me. So no mention of freight to all the people that were most interested.

    I say let the MSRP include freight, I hate it when they tack things on to the price neeways.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, there is a tiny link to a disclaimer that explains that. But $20,995 is plastered in the front of the e-mail and in places on that site.

    That's still misleading.

    Also, the PZEV and SULEV2 models cost $200 more, and remember you give up 5hp for those.

    They're n/a in MD, and I'd only get one if MD introduced HOV lane access for PZEVs like VA has, or some other credits to offset that cost.

    -juice
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    has anyone seen the pic of 3.0 sedan ?
    how does subaru expect us to buy this ?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    VW Passat 1.8T, 4Motion, stick, leather/cold, and VSC:

    MSRP: $29,110
    Invoice: $26,754
    TMV: $25,682 then zip off $2,000 in incentives here in Boston.

    Not such a bad deal considering long term depreciation/ownership costs and similar hp numbers.

    "You get a huge 2 piece moonroof also. Probably a different stereo too (6 CD changer?)." I better get a roof for the upcharge but I'm still not sold on the 2 piece job.

    "Actually Ray/Rob, the base Legacy 2.5i does have 4 level heated seats." The Base has heated seats? So for my $3650 all I get different is power driver seat?

    "Also, the PZEV and SULEV2 models cost $200 more, and remember you give up 5hp for those." So tack on that for us in the Northeast as well as Subaru New England's potential required port installed stuff.

    I was hoping to consider the GT Wagon as well but it's pushed out beyond my comfort range at MSRP.

    Maybe I need to relax and wait until it actually is on the ground to see what the real world is doing.
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    Maybe I'm just dementing but its no clear to me from the site that the Bean and VDC are wagons.There was a VDC sedan once.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, they specifically say Sedan on that one model, and don't mention a price increase for wagon models of the Bean and VDC. I seriously doubt they're dropping the better selling wagons of those models.

    Then again, that might be another mistake on the site.

    Rob: I'd buy a base Legacy 2.5i sedan for $21k and spend a grand on aftermarket leather, to beat that Passat's price. You'd only give up VSC, and you'd be well under the $23.6k or so for that Passat.

    Or just get a 2.5i Limited for about the same money.

    Plus...that Passat is a lame-duck, we've already seen preview pics of the new one.

    -juice
  • rayccraycc Member Posts: 30
    Juice,

       Where did you get that info? Because on the need-desire.com it said only the Limited has it. But I do hope that you right.

    Ray
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Freight will vary from location to location, so I understand why it's not on this site.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I thought every Legacy and Outback had heated seats now. Is that wrong?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    For me the non-negotiables are leather and moonroof. I'm not willing to have a big hole put in my roof so the 2.5i wagon (not sedan) isn't an option. IMHO the differentiation based on need-desire between the i and the Ltd isn't worth $3600 unless the full spec sheet is hiding something.

    AWD is a nice to have not a must have for me - I can drop the 4motion on the Passat and save the cost. I wouldn't care as I use snows in the winter. As for the Passat being a lame duck - that's true but all indications point to the new Passat wagon not hitting the US until Spring 2006. I'm not sure I'm going to wait that long. For the kind of coin that Subaru is asking, the V50 under the OSD program might be a better value with the included maintenance.

    I'm just disappointed that the jump for the 2.5 LTD is so huge!! Unless there is some suprise in the specs that I don't see, the value isn't there for me.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    IIRC, freight is usually a fixed charge no matter where the vehicle is going.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the LTD package is overpriced also.

    Keep in mind there may be more wheel-and-deal on models with higher margins.

    AWD ain't a must-have for me but FWD is a must-not-have. LOL

    V50 might be smaller, almost WRX sized. Forester XT would be a better value if you wanted something really compact.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's not included in the MSRP, however. It's always a separate line item.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Still, I hate bait-and-switch.

    They plaster a huge, bold:

    $20,995

    on the front page. You're in NY so you get a SULEV2 model with freight, you're talking about a price that is $775 higher than that as a starting point.

    That's not insignificant...

    -juice
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    I don't think the base Legacy 2.5i gets heated seats. The need-desire site says the Limited version gets the power heated leather seats and dual zone climate control. I read over at nabisco that it also gets the 6 disc changer and the power moonroof.

    -Ian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Saw a Subaru 6CD on E-bay for $75, though it was still being bid on.

    I still don't see $3 grand worth.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK it's a bet. I say even the base Leg has heated seats.

    Winner gets free membership in Dave & Bob's Subaru Encyclopedia club. ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think most of us agree the Baja should be built off the larger 7-passenger crossover platform. There's a problem however, from an image standpoint if SOA does this. The crossover is to be Subaru's flagship, and to then build a pickup truck as a spin off, could be counter-productive to the crossover's "premium image" marketing efforts.

    Another possibility is to build it off the next-generation Forester platform, which is due around MY07. The image issue goes away, and it would probably be cheaper to build too. As to the utility issue... That would remain an unanswered question.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Too small a platform, Bob. The wheelbase isn't even 100".

    Ok, you said next gen, but it needs to get bigger, not smaller.

    Go with a stretch Legacy platform. Just 2" more wheelbase, 4" more box length, half on each side of the axle.

    Then add some nifty features like a slide-out ramp and a rack to hold plywood (saw one today on a pickup) and price it carefully.

    It'll be very, very interesting to see if the Honda SUT sells.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it might have a better chance of appealing to the youth market, which is ignoring it now. As the SOA prez said, most people who are buying it are over 40, and it's not connecting with young buyers. Maybe it needs to be more Wrangler/Scrambler-like?

    Bob
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I was mighty impressed with the interior packaging and passenger room of the S40. I swear there's more room in it than the S60. Dimensionally the V50 is bigger than the Impreza wagon but cargo capacity is less than 1/2. I guessing misprint or differing measuring techniques.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
    need-desire is pretty but just give me the facts. i love spreadsheet type details like the ones sometimes found in the back of brochures. so SoA forget the need-desire pretty crap, just give us the facts.

    bet that pretty pyscho questionaire didnt ask that
  • breldbreld Member Posts: 6,938
    I'm surprised so many seem turned off by the pricing - comparing the street prices of the current Legacies and Outbacks with a 5-year old design to the MSRP of the new models isn't really fair.

    Comparing the 2.5i to the current L35th Legacies, the MSRPs are very close - $175 more for the new sedan, less than that for the wagon.

    Comparing 2.5i LTDs to the current GTs (fair comparison, isn't it?) - $775 less for the new sedan, $474 less for the wagon.

    Hard to compare the turbos, though $4-5,000 does seem like quite a premium.

    Outbacks are very comparable in MSRP as well, except for the LL Bean, which increased $1,775. That does seem like a lot for a model that was selling at nowhere near it's MSRP.

    With that said, if you're looking to buy right now, there is obviously a significant out-of-pocket difference between buying a "left-over" 2004 compared to being one of the first to buy a 2005. But, as we all know, Subarus will not sell for MSRP for long. I would think $1-2,000 off will be obtainable within 3-6 months.

    It's just nice to have a choice of engines on the Legacy again!

    2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2025 MB GLE450e - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Chevy Borrego, remember that?

    GM never built it. I thought it was kinda cool.

    Baja is more practical but might have been too close to a real pickup, and then it could not match the utility of those.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Rob, did you sit in the rear? I'm only 5'9" and my head hit the ceiling in the rear, due to that sloped rear roof.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Something like the Borrego. Oops! Isn't that what the B9 SC is like?

    Bob
  • goneskiiangoneskiian Member Posts: 381
    OK, Juice. I'll take that bet.

    BTW, what are the member benefits to Dave & Bob's Subaru Encyclopedia Club? Do I get a free set of these Encyclopedia's? LOL! ;-)

    -Ian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    rob: are you sure we sat in the same car? S40 had no rear leg room and my head rubbed against the head liner big time. Even Bob was crowded in the back seat and he's not tall.

    V50 does look roomier, but check carefully. I think it's more Forester sized.

    The L35th has two moonroofs, so I guess you give those up for SAC and heated seats now.

    So if I fell off The Fence today, a 2004 Bean is the best value out there. A 2.5i wagon auto would run $24.5k MSRP, about what an H6, leather, moonroofed Bean would cost in May.

    Of course new is new, and prices will drop. Once they get to $22k I'd be interested, and it would soon enough.

    Turbos? F-XT are much better priced, I think I'd get those.

    So Lucien, no regrets, bud, for you or for you parents.

    -juice
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Yes I did and was fine. Even if my head did hit it doesn't matter - I don't ride in the back!! Besides, I'm more concerned with the wagon.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Benefits? You lose your hair and get fat. Can't beat that!

    Bob
  • rayccraycc Member Posts: 30
    I very hope Juice is right on this one. Because if he is right, it mean that I could buy a car with everything I want for 20K.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    juice - IMHO the S40 was roomier than the S60. Perhaps because the front seat design is so different on the S40.

    Dimensionally the V50 wagon is about 9" shorter than the Legacy wagon (based on my conversion of AU specs) but pretty close on other exterior numbers. There weren't any interior dimensions on the AU site so I'll have to wait until need-desire publishes them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    S60 has that slanted rear window, which really eats into headroom. I didn't fit in that either. Of course I'd just get a V70 AWD if I were buying a Volvo.

    Yeah, what about EPA mileage?

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    22/28 for the Legacy 2.5i 5 speed.

    23/28 for the 2.5i automatic.

    17/24 for the Legacy XT 5 speed.

    18/25 for the Legacy XT auto.

    20/27 for the Outback H6 auto.

    -juice
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    "Yeah, what about EPA mileage?"

    Whaddaya itchin' for a fight??!!

    The S40i is 22/30 - the others aren't out yet.
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wanna know about the V50R AWD. ;-)

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the base engine uses regular, premium for the turbo and H6.

    -juice
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    Took the words right out of my mouth!!!!

    People seem to forget that our Subies are not feather weight!

    Another thing... The 300C's traction and stability control has gotten praise reviews and even questioned needing the AWD!

    Anyway, cars are not for everyone... that's why there's so many :p

    I like it!!!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    "I wanna know about the V50R AWD. ;-)"

    Properly driven, I'd guess about 12 mpg on the autox course!!
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    wow the posts in this thread stepped up a notch today, eh? ;-)

    all this talk about pricing of the Legacy/Outback - makes me smile a bit at the *bargain* I got on my F-XT. Sure, I know it's not the same size and doesn't have all the fancy stuff, but it's the least expensive of the 2.5H4 turbo models...

    -Brian
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    oh a LOT worse than that, Rob! a few years ago... :whoa: ok, in june 2001, I actually carefully measured my mileage and fuel consumption at a divisional autocross. big two day event, long course on an old runway.

    I got a little under 8 mpg in my '99 2.5RS. it did have headers, cobb cams, and a few other goodies but it wasn't fast.

    ~c
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    at http://www.media.subaru.com/

    Base GT includes All Weather Package, 6 CD changer, dual-zone automatic climate control, trip computer, etc.

    For $2500 on sedan, $2700 on wagon - GT Limited adds:

    8 way power driver's seat
    4 way power passenger seat w/ manual lumbar
    Moonroof
    Leather trim upholstery

    The additional cost for the GT LTD seems reasonable IMO, assuming you want all the extras.

    DaveM
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    Judging by the posted dollars, I believe that Subaru has way overpriced the 2005 Legacy line in comparison with Accords, Camrys, 6's, etc. Except for AWD and the availability of wagons, the other brands offer more refinement than the 2004 Legacy line. No matter how good they look on paper or on the auto show floors, only time will tell if there is true refinement with the 2005's.

    I love our 2004 Legacy GT Limited, but my new Accord V6 Coupe beats it hands-down in virtually every area (except for the non-availability of AWD). See my post #13835. It also runs great on regular, whereas the 2005 Subaru turbos and sixes need premium.

    The Outback thing is a moot point for me, as I have no interest in, nor need for, a wagon.

    Paisan, you've inferred that you consider the other brands' sedans and coupes to be plain vanila, but I'm not talking about highly modified Subarus, such as yours, here.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'm comparing them to my dad's '97 Legacy 2.2L AWD Automatic. It's 100K and bone stock, and I'd take it over the vanilla ones out there. My SVX is bone stock other than brakes and a loud exhaust (cause to replace the stock exhaust would have been $1500), my '94 Legacy only has springs and shocks in it currently.

    :)

    -mike
  • beanboybeanboy Member Posts: 442
    On the GT sedan. Wish the wagon followed the WRX pricing scheme of $500 cheaper. Still, with a 26K sticker, invoice should be in the high-end of my reasonable range. Looking forward to a test drive.

    -B
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