Subaru Crew - Future Models II

sweet_subie

VDC is ridiculous

rsholland

Yeah, you could sit in them. As to the difference between the GT and XT? Not much. The GT was a manual and a sedan, while the XT was a 5EAT and a wagon.

Bob

ateixeira

VDC price is a bad sign for the 7 seater. If $33,400 is the starting price that vehicle, I'm not sure I can afford it.

The Legacy 2.5i can be added to my short list now that I know the price. With side curtains, 4 temp heated cloth seats, and big fuel efficiency and range, I find it very appealing.

-juice

kens

Interesting. Well, those aren't the official prices quite yet so I'm still not jumping any conclusions.

What was MSRP for the outgoing VDC? At $33K, one has quite a few other options to consider.

The GT and XT are pratically identical. Aside from the ground clearance and visual cues, they're almost the same vehicle. The differences I've noted are:
- GT gets vented rear disc brakes also
- GT has alumnium suspension arms
- GT gets chrome tipped exhaust
- GT has taller gearing but cancelled out by lower profile tires

Otherwise, they get the same engine, same display, same tranny options, etc. I personally wished Subaru did a little more to distinguish between the two.

Ken

ateixeira

Outback XT gets more color selection and probably sits about half a foot higher off the ground. ;-)

-juice

pon1

hope/assume these are correct MSRP prices - still waiting for news for canada - but this is encouraging

back to speculation, but how much over the legacy GT price do we figure for an outback XT?

atlgaxt

This is all still speculative, as we have no way of determining if those prices from Nabisco are for real, but the VDC Outback is loaded with no options, then that $33k price does not seem unreasonable to me. However, if you have to pay above $33k to get additional goodies, Subaru might be getting a little pricey.

Also, if a VDC Outback topped out at $33k and came absolutely loaded, that would be consistent with a 7 seater at a mid trim level being in the low $30s, with the top of the line being in the mid / upper $30s, which I also think would be competitive.

ateixeira

Well, if those VDC prices are correct, that puts a cap on the price, at least.

-juice

rsholland

that there weren't any real advances in their AWD with the new Legacy/Outback models. Yes, VDT is more widely used, but other than that, it's pretty much business as usual.

The recent announcement of the Acura SH-AWD hammers home that point. Granted, the only people who have tested it are Honda engineers; but if it's half as good as predicted, it will have caught Subaru with its pants down. Subaru should have been the company to announce this new system, not Acura.

Bob

ateixeira

Prelude SH had a front diffy that seemed to work in a similar way, but that didn't help that model sell much. It was overpriced.

Let's see how the press like the RL, I'd be curious to try one out myself.

-juice

kens

George: Good point. The VDC really has no more options to add -- it's got every option of all the other trims plus VDC.

Bob: I agree. I was hoping that Subaru would not only trickle down VTD, but VDC to some of it's other models with the 05 Legacy/OB.

Ken

bbthomas

Seems like memory would be an easy feature to add to the power drivers seat. There is no advantage over manual adjustment without it that I can see.

I'm not sure what they did to up the towing. Just going by the 2005 L.L. Bean Specs on http://www.media.subaru.com under Forester and noticed that along with the gearing & MPG change.

subewannabe

if you compare what you get to a V6 w/Tiptronic Passat GLX or an Audi A6 quattro, you get a lot more performance for the $$, just not the German gestalt. In hindsight, I sure wish I had gotten a VDC sedan instead of an A6..the Audi is one expensive piece of machinery to maintain.

Mark

johnclineii

Question was asked above by another but not answered. What y'all figure the price difference between a Legacy Wagon GT and an Outback Wagon XT will be?

rsholland

Yesterday it was reported in AN that SOA is considering pulling the plug on the Baja. I'm sure many are not surprised at this announcement. I've long been a supporter of the Baja in "theory," but very much against it in it's "execution." If this does come to pass, I hope SOA will replace it with another pickup that is better sorted out, and one that is much better in terms of being "marketable."

Boy, if there was ever a case of poor and/or inaccurate market research, the Baja is it. The ST-X concept vehicle, while ugly as all get out, showed a lot of promise. However going from concept to production, it got castrated, and as a result never had a fair chance to survive in the market.

Bob

ateixeira

Mark: that Passat gets a lot less power for more money, too. Remember the H6 will now get 250hp.

And now the interior materials are a match for VW's best, the fabric on the A-pillar and headliner match the stuff on the VW Phaeton, for instance.

Bob: even after a price drop and adding a turbo, Baja isn't selling. I doubt they'll do another one. Think about it - a full size sedan would sell better at a higher profit margin.

They'll just invest the R&D funds elsewhere.

-juice

rsholland

because none are available. When was the last time you saw a Baja turbo on a lot? SOA is just not making them, yet they are still advertising them???

Around here the Baja turbo = vaporware.

Bob

rsholland

If SOA drops the Baja, 10 years from now it will become a sought after collectors item, much like the SVX is now. Talk about irony...

Bob

atlgaxt

dropped the ball by not copying the Avalanche with the midgate. It looks like Honda is following in Subaru's footsteps with the SUT, which according to everything I have seen so far does not look like it will have a midgate either. Perhaps with its larger overall size, the Honda SUT will be able to provide adequate utility without a midgate.

oregonboy

I would have bought a Baja rather than my Tacoma if it had been a "king-cab" (with a larger bed) rather than a "quad-cab"... especially if it was available with the turbo and styled more conservatively. More function/utility, less "image".

james

rsholland

Exactly: More function. Less image.

Bob

bat1161

I've always liked the way the Baja looks, so it is disappointing to hear they may stop production. Hopefully, as was suggested here, it will only be until they redisgn it to be more pratical. They need the wider pass through, or better yet, the full mid gate; and they should extend it enough to carry a full sheet of plywood. It has the look, it just needs the full functionality.

Mark

paisan

No thanks. I'll take the VTD w/TRUE LSDs rather than the VDC pseudo LSD system anyday.

As for the hondah thing. Until it's a)included in every itteration of a model b)in-expensive enough option, don't expect honda to cut into the sales of subies. How many of the optional AWD siennas do you see out there? All-trac Celicas and Civics? If given the option, or given the option with it costing more $, folks will not get the AWD and this will cause them to be rarely sold. Just my opinion.

-mike

sweet_subie

just stopped by a honda dealer. maybe we all have forgottern the car pricing.

an accord coupe with honda performace parts with NAV is 34.5k ????????????
unbelievable !

for 7k less, legacy GT is a bargain indeed !

robr2

You are comparing bone stock to an accessorized vehicle.

Don't forget - the performance parts are all dealer priced and installed so they are pretty much way marked up. If Subaru offered the same type of accessories, dealers would slap them on the vehicle and mark them up the same way.

jimmyp1atwork

but you can buy that exact car for $25-26k in Houston without haggling.

Jim

edit: you beat me robr!

ateixeira

Honda's FP parts are priced in the stratosphere, but at least Honda covers them under warranty. SPT doesn't.

I saw a Civic FP for $23 grand.

Baja collectible? To a small extent, maybe. I don't think residual values will be good, though.

-juice

paisan

Pat may have been talking about CAN$, not US$.

An equivilently price Accord will sell for significantly more than a Subie and they won't come off the asking price cause they just keep selling em. You can bargain hunt on the subies more.

-mike

ateixeira

Actually Accord sales are down, the new model looks like it sat in the sun and melted. Camry is eating the Accord's lunch.

-juice

hondafriek

Sweet Subie who posted that Accord Pricing not me.

  Cheers Pat.

hondafriek

don't like the appearance of of the new Accord, the Camry I like even less.

  Anybody interested in making a donation so we provide new hamsters for Edmunds:-)

 Boy the site is slow the past few days.

  Cheers Pat.

rsholland

really slow, for sure.

Bob

paisan

Could be your networks are slow reaching where the Edmunds server is?

-mike

blane

Got my 2004 Accord V6 Coupe with voice controlled DVD navigation, voice controlled audio system, heated leather, XM, traction control, electronic brake distribution, dual zone HVAC, side curtain airbags, split fold-down rear seat, etc for $25,300. Who needs the ground effects that you've mentioned for an extra $9.5K?

My wife drives our 2002 Legacy GT Limited, a fine car, but nowhere as refined and satisfying as the Honda. The only things missing from the Accord are AWD and a couple of doors.

paisan

That's an outstanding price on it. I'm sure there is more behind the price than we are seeing here... Also Honda will charge $2K for AWD, maybe more.

-mike

c_hunter

We test drove an Accord a few weeks ago and it was a very nice car. I thought the 4 cylinder EX was a bargain considering what you get for the $20K street price around here.

If the new Legacy can compete pricewise *and* offer AWD, it would be really sweet deal.

Craig

paisan

They've been there Hunter. Almost went broke back in the 90s due to the fact that they tried to beat the big-boys in their own game. They couldn't do it and almost lost the farm due to it.

-mike

c_hunter

I know Subaru got their butt handed back on a platter when they tried to go mainstream, but that was more because they tried to compete in many different areas with vehicles that weren't all that compelling. They're back to focusing on a few key product lines with good vehicles.

The Legacy is already competitive on price with the Accord, plus you get AWD. I think the new model will add a dose of style and class, and options that are more inline with newer vehicles like the Accord. The Legacy can be cross-shopped with the big boys, but it will still have unique features to keep it from going head-to-head.

Craig

blane

Nothing "more behind the price" Mike. Just going in with the facts and making the right offer that was accepted (Mahwah).

ateixeira

We paid $17.8k for our Legacy L. A new 35AE runs about the same price as an Accord EX-4, so you do get AWD for the same price, basically.

But honestly I don't think they compete directly. Subaru is a niche player out on the snow belt fringe. With the turbos they're moving towards performance.

Is that Accord coupe a MT? Too bad the sedan only come in automatic.

-juice

bkaiser1

Having owned several Hondas in addition to the 2 Subies, I have to say that finding a deal on a Honda isn't that much more difficult than dealing on a Subie. We recently bought an 04 Accord EX-L for invoice (just under $21k if I recall) with little haggling. In fact, the Honda dealer was far easier to deal with than any of the Subaru dealers we encountered when buying the 04 WRX last year. I think people tend to overstate Honda's position in the market -- yes they sell a ton of cars, but that does not mean they gouge people on them.

Compared to the outgoing Legacy model, there was no comparison between the two for us. The Accord offered a much more refined package for similar $$ as the Legacy. I'd love to drive the new Legacies and Outbacks for comparison...it certainly appears as if they have made some fantastic improvements in the quality of the cars for 2005.

Brian

ateixeira

Dunno, we found the 2002 Accord unexciting. Plus in '02 it was about to get replaced that fall, so it would have been a lame duck. EX was around $19K IIRC. Plus at the time we could not get a 5 speed w/ABS with the equipment we wanted, though now you can.

But that overlooks the main disadvantage: no wagon!

We test drove a CR-V but it had some important misses (hatch opens to curb side, small wheels, front leg room limited). Plus the EX was $21k or so.

So we bought the Legacy L for $17.8k and just added our own moonroof. But we got ABS and AWD, which we wanted, and for less cash. And of course it's a wagon.

Keep in mind a wagon costs about $1000 more, and AWD costs about $2000 more. So to ask Subaru to price an AWD wagon for the same as a FWD sedan is giving the competitor a $3000 price break!

Your $24k Accord would turn into a $27k Accord, which is more in line with high-end Subies like the LL Bean. You can actually get a Bean for less.

-juice

ateixeira

Shamelessly copied from another thread:

sedan wagon
2.5i $20,995 $21,995 add $1000 for Sportshift Auto

2.5i LTD $24,445 $25,645

2.5GT $25,995 $26,995 add $1200 for Sportshift with VTD

2.5GTLTD$28,495 $29695

OUTBACKS:
2.5i $23,995

2.5XT $27,995

3.0 LLBEAN $32,195

ADD 575 destination on all models

If this is right, they priced Outbacks $2000-3000 higher than Legacys. That makes the Legacy models a better value IMO.

-juice

ateixeira

OK, here were my guesstimates, all include freight, from way back in February:

Outback 2.5i invoice: $22,500 (24,570 actual retail)
4 speed auto is an $800 option (1000 retail)

(my guess was spot-on)

Outback 2.5i Limited: $25,000 (not listed above)
same as current, specs seem to imply 6CD is dropped which offsets price increase

Outback 2.5 XT: $25,000 (28,570 retail)
5 speed auto for $1000, this tranny option costs more than the 4 speed

(slightly higher than expected, but I was right about Sportshift costing more)

Outback 2.5 XT Limited: $27,500 (not listed above)
5 speed for another $1000

Outback 3.0 R LL Bean: $28,800 (32,770 retail)
bigger increase for curtains and 5 speed auto and Sportshift

(OK I was waaaay off on that one)

Outback 3.0R VDC: $30,500 (not listed above)
smaller increase where competition is most intense

<end earlier predictions>

So I was close, but the H6 models look to be price higher to make room for the XT.

-juice

paisan

As Juice said, tack on $1K for Wagon and $2k for AWD and then you are not even in the same ballpark as a subie. If FWD works for you, or you use your car like an appliance, then Honda/Toyota is the way to go. Nothing about those cars excites me when driving, they are more or less the equivilent to kitchen appliances. You use the H/T every day, put gas and oil, and after 5 years get a new one. For some of my relatives that is perfect for them. As for a "drivers" car they are IMHO bland.

-mike

hondafriek

you quote.

(But that overlooks the main disadvantage: no wagon!)

  This was the reason that I bought the Legacy GT. Honda dropped the Accord wagon and lost me as a customer after having owned 5 Accords and 2 Civics.

 BTW I am still not sorry I bought the Subaru I love this car.Again there is talk here of the present Accord being more refined than the Legacy, don't know about that.

I admit that my last Accord wagon was a 93 EX which I dearly loved but in terms of refinement my 01 Legacy GT wagon is head and shoulders better.

Most especially better in terms of noise and harshness particularly road noise.

  Cheers Pat.

ateixeira

In fairness I wouldn't consider our Legacy L a driver's car either. A new Legacy 2.5GT, absolutely. But really that lines up more closely with the Acura TSX or Audi A4.

Honda sells a TSX wagon in Europe, it's just called Accord there. That model would match up well with the new Legacy wagon, just give it SH-AWD.

Of course that would push the TSX AWD wagon over $30k.

-juice

ateixeira

I only had a 2 minute sample drive at the Chevy Malibu event, ironically, but the Accord handles very soft and ran out of steering boost during the slalom.

I think if that's what you're looking for you'd be please, but it's just not my style. TSX would be closer.

-juice

paisan

The L is not that far from a Legacy GT. Its more the chassis than anything. Your L is way more tossable than an equivilent honda accord. It would feel way more at home on a road course or autox than an accord. At least IMHO. Heck a legacy L is just about a GT execpt for some minor cosmetic features.

-mike

kens

Mike's right. Wasn't there a family sedan comparo done on C&D a while back and the Legacy recevied very positive comments on handling despite it being the oldest model of the bunch?

But the gap between the L and GT is going to be significantly wider forward looking with that turbo!

Ken