Low End Sedans (under $16k)

lngtonge18 · April 2004

The Accent is a very solid reliable little car. Part of the reason is its simplistic design. I bought a 2000 Accent new (a first year design) and only encountered 3 problems and no recalls. 2 of the problems were fixed under warranty but the 3rd (an intermittent rare failure of the horn) seems to be an electrical mystery. My water pump bearing was making noise so the pump was replaced at 15k. Hyundai was smart in keeping the pump an external component driven by an accessory belt so the engine didn't have to be ripped apart and the timing belt wasn't touched. The throwout release bearing was making noise when the clutch pedal was up almost since new. It just got progressively louder. I was honestly being real anal about the noise since it was my first new car. Most people could barely hear it. At 21k, the dealer admitted to hearing the noise and replaced not only the bearing but also the pressure plate and clutch disc free of charge! I considered this good service since no clutch is covered under warranty past 12k. I sold the car after 2.5 years and 25k miles. It served me extremely well and never left me stranded. It also never drank a drop of oil or leaked anything, and build quality was quite solid (only 2 squeaks cropped up and they weren't loud). The only things that annoyed me about the car was the notchy shifter and the slow accleration with the AC on (this should be better now that the 1.5 has been dropped for a much better 1.6).

I sold it to a good friend so I have been able to keep tabs on its progress. After leaving me, its actually been even better. The battery failed at 35k (this car was mainly driven in the city so more short trips were involved). The front brake pads were replaced at 40k. Other then that, nothing has needed repair. I recently drove the car and it felt just as solid as the day I bought it. I actually still enjoy driving it even though I have moved up to a 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GT V6. The Accent is just so fun to fling around due to its light weight and good handling and steering. It has a spunky personality that brings a smile to my face. I highly recommend this car to anyone who needs good basic reliable transportation.

By the way, my Tiburon has been flawless so far. 11k and not one single trip to the dealer for anything. I have 1 minor recall that needs to be performed, but otherwise, it's been a great car. Hyundai has impressed me with their good build quality, especially on first year models (the 03 Tib is a first year model too).

grapevinetx · April 2004

One of the problems with the Ion is the arrangement of the instrument cluster. All gauges, including speedo, are located in the center of the dash, instead of in front of the driver. Just to see how fast you're going you have to take your eyes off the road, which is unsafe. Lot's of folks don't accept this compromise, especially when there are better choices around at similar or lower prices.

The Accent is a pretty good car at a great price. I've driven several as rentals and always came away favorably impressed. The interior features and finish are a pleasant surprise in this class of autos.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2004

Nissan Micra. I have read a few reports on it coming to the UK and them being excited about it. Also, American Nissan dealers would LOVE to have it on their lots now. They're kinda light in the small car compartment, the Z-car isn't in this class and the Sentra is, umm, somewhat lacking if all the feedback I hear is correct. The Sentra would qualify as a Low-End vehicle for under $15,000, wouldn't it? How come no one ever reports on one of them in here? Anyhoo, the Micra is evidently on it's way over to America eventually. It does have an appealing look to it. We'll have to post a link to a photo of one if somebody needs to see it for the first time out there.

majorthomecho · April 2004

Iluv, I believe the Micra is a Mazda product and not Nissan.

lawman1967 · April 2004

The Nissan equivalent is actually the March, and yes, its terrific.

majorthomecho · April 2004

Grape, your post reminds me of a parrot just repeating what it heard and not saying something original.

Have you sat in the Ion or any other car that has a center mounted speedo/instrument cluster?

I have sat in the Ion and I own an Echo which has a center mounted speedo/instrument cluster. I came from a car which had a traditionally situated speedo/instrument cluster and it took me very little time to get used to the center mounted arrangement. I have never felt it to be dangerous and the speedo is in my normal viewing range.

Also, with a center mounted speedo/instrument cluster, a person does not have to adjust the steering wheel so that the instruments are not obstructed.

muffin_man · April 2004

Actually, I meant the Nissan March, when I said Mazda Micra. But heck, bring them both. Let the little cars take over the road.

280hp · April 2004

ive actually test driven one. its one of those cars with an engine so quiet at idle that you have to check the rev counter to make sure the engine is running.

interior was very ordinary, as was the ride and handling.

i thought the car had a bit better than average straight line accleration though, for a low end car.

price was > 15k.

backy · April 2004

I've driven several vehicles with center-mounted speedos: ECHO, ION, and Quest among them. Personally I don't like that location, maybe because it seems unnatural after 30+ years of driving, maybe because I don't have sight in my right eye. I think I could get used to it if I had to, but so far I haven't found a car that I just had to have that has a center-mounted speedo. I am not convinced that arrangement is "better" than the traditional arrangement, except of course to lower costs for the automaker.

lawman1967 · April 2004

I left my Protege overnight to have some squeeks and rattles removed (fingers crossed so tightly they hurt), and my rental is a brand-new 2004 Sentra 1.8S.

The Sentra is about as roomy as the Protege, has more expensive-looking plastics on the dash, but in a weird-looking design that I don't care for. The seats are nice and firm, but the fabric feels cheap, though durable. My favorite interior feature is an AUX input for the stereo, allowing the very easy connection of an MP3 player.

The back seat has less leg room than the Protege, but is about the same in every other dimension.

What I like about the Sentra is the ride. It is much quieter than the Protege. Sure, I didn't buy the Protege for luxury and I enjoy the exhaust note, but the Sentra has almost no wind noise, which I can't say about the Pro.

While the ride is smoother, it lacks the Protege's precision. The car was designed to feel like a larger car, and it does every time it leans, oozes and floats around a corner. Competent, but not entertaining is how I would describe the handling.

Finally it feels slow compared to the Protege, though it is probably just as quick only the feeling is muted by the quiet interior.

In the end, the Sentra is a rather nice economy car, and at least EPA gets MUCH better fuel economy from it than they do from the Protege, but I can't wait for my car to be home.

greg1 · April 2004

I'm a cheapskate and a commuter looking for a sedan or hatchback. I need to spend 12k or less. I care about price, reliability and gas mileage and little else. Looks are not important. I do need a car with decent headroom, although I test drove an Accent and didn't find it uncomfortable. I've been discouraged by the used cars I have seen in this area. The used Hondas and Toyotas simply cost too much, in my opinion, when you consider the mileage on them and their Original purchase price. So I think it comes down to the Accent, the Echo or, maybe, the new Chevy compact (I can't remember the name). I like the Echo for its gas mileage and because it is a Toyota, but Edmunds seems to prefer the Accent. Any thoughts here? If I go with the Echo, should I worry that it is being discontinued in terms of finding parts and people who know how to work on them? Is the Chevy worth serious consideration? And finally, since I live in Syracuse, any thoughts on which of these cars would handle better in the snow? Any help would be very much apprieciated Thanks, Greg

grandtotal · April 2004

If you truly are a cheapskate then you should go with a Honda or Toyota. Yes, I know the others are cheaper to buy but you should consider the total cost of ownership or TCO. Take a look at this as a starting point.

backy · April 2004

You sound like a good bet for a base ECHO 2-door to me, if you can find one. It's one of the most reliable and high-mpg small cars and has good headroom. The Aveo is a nice little car but its reliability is unproven and its fuel economy is worse than the ECHOs. You can save a couple of grand up front on one compared to an ECHO, but depreciation is likely to be high. The ECHO is a simple car, and the powertrain is used in the Scions, so parts and service shouldn't be a problem. If you are worried about snow, you might want to move up to a car like the Elantra that has ABS and traction control. It handles very well in the snow and is a lot more car than an ECHO, Aveo, or Accent. A 5-speed Elantra with ABS/traction would come in under $12k after rebate and before tax. But fuel economy is 5 mpg worse than the ECHO's.

kneisl1 · April 2004

1) Toyota reliability
2) Outstanding mileage (mine gets 40 mpg around town)
3) The easiest car made to get into and out of (NOT low to the ground)
4) Outstanding interior room and headroom.
5) The best engine in its class for mileage AND peformance
FORGET about what Edmunds says about the ECHO...they COMPLETELY missed the boat about the ECHO.
READ the comments by ECHO owners in that section, though. Almost NO unhappy customers.
While it seems possible for an ECHO cancelation, the new Scions use the same engine which is bodes well for future part availibility. If they were going to axe it though I imagine that already would have happened.
Being from Cobleskill Im a little disappointed with my ECHOs handling in snow. It DOES have the el cheapo Potenza tires however. I imagine a good set of tires would help a lot in that department.
Buy the ECHO you wont be sorry.

majorthomecho · April 2004

I would not let what Edmunds says about the Echo dissuade you from buying one. For some reason they are biased against the Echo and this has clouded their judgment.

I have an Echo and I really love it. My roommate has an Echo and she loves hers too. But why not post a message in the Echo board and since you are thinking about the Accent, post a message in that board.

I get great gas mileage in my manual Echo, but I have to admit that my roommate does not get as good of gas mileage in her automatic Echo, but her constant habit of driving 80+ mph on the highway might have something to do with it.

280hp · April 2004

Can i suggest that the following cars be added :

Saturn ION
Hyundai Accent

in place of :

Hyundai Elantra
Nissan Sentra

kneisl1 · April 2004

Yes by all means add the ion and also the focus. You can get five year free financing on these cars which has to count for something. i know the focus has a terrible recall record, but my bosses 2000 focus after going through a year of aggravation has settled down into a reliable car. Another guy at work puts 80 miles a day commuting in his and he likes it. They drove very nicely.

pat · April 2004

The Focus is already there - look at "What is this discussion about?" at the top of the page. As some of you remember, I can only list up to 6 vehicles there, even though we can certainly talk about more.

The categories control which Make/Model searches will list this as one of the relevant discussions. So it affects one of the ways that people can get here.

I have no problem replacing the Elantra and the Sentra with the Accent and the ION.

What do others think?

When I first added those categories, I was trying to go by the title when it was Japanese vs. European vs. American vs. Korean (or whatever it was!) that led to the decision to change the title, but I never did anything different with the categories.

We should try to stick to the vehicles we actually talk about and want to talk about.

kneisl1 · April 2004

Oh i was just meaning to suggest other options to Greg who asked about the echo vs hyundai.

backy · April 2004

The Elantra is Hyundai's sales leader and has more public interest than the Accent, thus I think it should not be replaced in favor of the Accent.

Sentra vs. ION is a tossup to me, but since GM is already represented by the Aveo, I think it's more fair to include the Sentra than the ION. Perhaps we could replace the Aveo with the ION.

It's really a shame we can have only 5 cars plus "sedan". What happens if we take out "sedan"? Since it's a Sedans board, can't people locate it that way? We are missing some significant low end cars, particularly the sales leader for this class, the Civic, and the Corolla, which far outsells the ECHO. Not to mention Edmunds' top choice in this class, the Mazda3. If I had to pick five, they would be:

Civic
Corolla
Elantra
Focus
ION

pat · April 2004

Count again - there ARE 6 vehicles listed. ;-)

I included the ECHO because it represented a significant part of the conversation, at least it used to. But we can certainly drop it if folks agree.

backy · April 2004

Then the sixth should be the Sentra or Spectra IMO.

alpha01 · April 2004

I say close the board. There seems to be little information exchange going on here, but a lot of disagreement as to which vehicles should be included. Pat, Im surprised that you've tolerated this as politely as you have. It seems though, that most of the more productive threads in the Comparisons board are between 2, 3, or 4 vehicles, with the notable expection of Malibu vs. others.

In any case, this thread is hard to read, and unclear in its intent.

~alpha

backy · April 2004

Three years and almost 2500 posts, and you say close it down because we're discussing how best to advertise the board to Town Hall members? How many comparison boards for low-end cars have gone this long, with so many posts? It's the only board on Town Hall that allows free exchange of info on all the low-end cars, which appeals to me as a fan of that class of car.

If you don't want to contribute to it, that's certainly your perogative.

alpha01 · April 2004

The board has run its course. It really should be kept around just for historical value?

I have no problem with people disagree-ing and if it stays, great. Its just become a bit unproductive, and repetitive. I'll stay out if you want me to, backy.

~alpha

backy · April 2004

If your only reason for posting here is to suggest we kill the board, then I'd prefer you stay away. :-P

pat · April 2004

Well...

As long as folks are interested in the discussion, there's no reason to close it. If/when folks stop posting, it will archive itself. :-)

Yes, we've been through some evolutions in determining what our parameters are as some members have gone and others have joined, shifting the interest. I do agree that the discussions of fewer vehicles tend to stay more focused, but we can have more broadly-based discussions as long as folks are interested in carrying on the conversation.

And with that said, I should note that this particular conversation isn't appropriate here. Anyone who has comments about topic management should email me.

Thanks.

lawman1967 · April 2004

is probably not worth adding just because the car is so unpopular. The Aveo is likely to sell in far greater numbers.

As for the others, I agree on the Elantra and Sentra staying where they are.

backy · April 2004

Aveo sales YTD through March were 7883. ION sells at a rate of over 100,000 per year in the U.S. In comparison, Mazda sold 16,689 3's YTD in the U.S. through March--considerably under the rate of the "unpopular" ION. Aveo shipments and sales may ramp up above current limits, but they'd have to come up quite a bit to catch the ION's.

280hp · April 2004

Of the cars under discussion which one has the most recalls ?

im guessing it would be the Kia Rio or Hyundai Accent. But it could be the Focus, Aveo or Ion.

My feeling is that the Echo will probably have had the least if any, because its japanese.

would i b right in that ? has any1 got hard figures ?

backy · April 2004

By a landslide. There were 9 unique recalls in its first year (13 total actions but some are really the same problem), and 7 that affected 2001 models. But a good record after that. By contrast, Accent had 2 unique actions its first year, and one of those was for the 2001 models also. Rio had only one recall that I found, for 2001 models. Aveo is really too new to have had many recalls yet. If you want to see details on recalls for any model, you can get them at www.nhtsa.dot.gov.

lngtonge18 · April 2004

The Accent hasn't had a recall in 3 years and the 2 that were issued were relatively minor and only affected a small number of cars. Compared to the Focus, the Accent was designed right from the start.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2004

that jacked Focus buyers around like Ford did. I thought I was interested in that car for a few months. After a short while the look faded into the sunset and my respect for it(and Ford)faded as well as that pup went back for one recall after another. Pitiful job by Ford Motor Company on the Focus. Why anybody would buy one absolutely floors me. Glad I never bought one!

280hp · April 2004

i had a quick look @ the jd powers 2003 figures and it seems these r the rankings by nameplate :

Toyota 6th
Saturn 17th
Cheverolet 18th
Ford 23rd
Hyundai 31st
Kia 37th

But that doesnt help, since its the aggregate for the nameplates. Anyway to get the numbers on individual models ?

This is useful @ the low end since some of the cars r rebadged and share platforms. eg ford focus, chevy aveo etc, and thier dependability probably varies quite a bit from what thier anmeplate would suggest...

280hp · April 2004

yup, i get very upset also if a car maker sells lemons.

and actually im quite upset with not only ford (although never owned 1), but also gm.

but it seems that their quality is improving. and if the report are to be believed, they're now not only better than the koreans, but also the germans, not that the germans sell any low end cars...

backy · April 2004

In the 2003 IQS awards, Prius was #1 in the Compact Car class, followed by Corolla and then (tie) Lancer and ECHO.

Here's how CR ranked the top makes for 2003 models in number of problems per 100 vehicles:

Lexus 9
Infiniti 10
Honda 10
Toyota 11
Acura 13
Mazda 13
Buick 13
Saturn 14
Hyundai 14
Nissan 14
Pontiac 15
Dodge 16
Saab 16
Kia 16
Jeep 16
Average model 17

All others were at or below average. Ford was average, Chevrolet at 19 for other low-end car makers.

280hp · April 2004

yup. getting nameplate data doesnt seem that difficult.

but i was wondering, do you have any model specific data ? or know where to get it ?

backy · April 2004

CR's Annual Auto Issue (April) has model-specific reliability data going back eight years (if the models have been around that long).

kneisl1 · April 2004

<Im quite upset with Ford...>
Before reaching for the alka seltzler think of this. The Ford Escort was the outstanding American made low end car. The reliability was right up there with the Japanese cars. As for the Focus, although it had early recall problems, it was very highly rated as a vehicle by CR...the highest in its class in fact. I know of two Focus's that are giving great service after some initial bugs. Plus you can get one for NO INTEREST for five years and itll be less than $15k. If I had to buy a new car today the Focus would probably be it because of that.

backy · April 2004

The reliability was right up there with the Japanese cars.

I wonder if that was due at least in part because the design was based on the Mazda Protege.

I think the Focus is a nice small car, with an uncomfortable driving position (for me) and a price that's more than some competing cars the only real drawbacks. But I think I'm poisoned on Ford because of my bad experience with reliability on my '95 Mistake (er, Mystique) and the early history on the Focus. Once burned, it's hard to go back again--I know Hyundai found out how past reliability problems are hard to overcome in the minds of buyers.

280hp · April 2004

which is why its really important that they keep prices low, and also, start delivering dependable cars, that dont fall apart after 3 to 5 years of abuse.

if they do, then in a decade of so, we'll all be impressed by the number of old hyundais on our roads, and they can then sell on reputation, like the japanese now, and the germans 20 years ago.

of course if they dont they'll b another daewoo or kia, run out of money 2 pay thier suppliers and technical partners, and eventually b taken over by them.

say, didnt hyundai semiconducter/hynix fold up recently ? and r the 2 hyundais related ?

backy · April 2004

I don't know--but I know it has nothing to do with low-end cars. ;-)

lngtonge18 · April 2004

Hyundai is a huge conglomerate company with many different branches. Hyundai Motors is tied to the conglomerate but they are a separate entity. Ever heard of Hyundai in the shipping business? They have one of the largest shipbuilding facilities in the world. Hyundai is very similar to Subaru in that Subaru is simply a small portion of a large conglomerate called Fuji Industries.

280hp · April 2004

well, i guess my concern is spare parts and warranty.

that is if the conglomorate/chaebol had 2 divest 1 division/subsidiary, will they do so with others ?

i think daewoo is also a ship bulider. but since the divestment of thier motor division, what happened 2 those who bought daewoo ? i assume chevy stand by their warranties and stocks their spare parts.

also, if im not mistaken, samsung also wanted 2 get into the car business. but their venture may have folded b4 it even started and their technical partner nissan, had 2 buy them out, after they failed 2 pay bills, like kia and daewoo.

of course, nissan literally had 2 sell their hq and b saved by the french, after that.

but iinm, samsung still have a truck division.

backy · April 2004

Oh good, some more "It's a Korean car company, it must be going under!" stuff. It's been a long time since I saw posts like these in Town Hall. But this is not "News & Views", it's about the cars. May I suggest if you want to talk about the future of Hyundai as a car company, you start up a board for that purpose? ("Hyundai: is it long for this world?" or something like that.) Meanwhile, Hyundai the car company is doing quite well, thank you. Its cars are improving in quality and reliability each year. Its sales are climbing. (GM just cut auto production; hmm, maybe they are going under!) Their U.S. factory is opening soon. IMO opinion these do not look like signs of a company that is going under.

So, which of the low-end Hyundais do you like better, the Accent or Elantra?

dispencer1 · April 2004

I've rented both of them. The Accent is perfectly adequate as a daily commuter. It is comfortable, fairly basic, has adequate headroom and legroom and gets good gas mileage. Seats are OK. It handles OK and the engine doesn't feel underpowered. The Elantra feels much different -like a fairly quiet, comfortable semi-luxury car. Lots more sound insulation and a nicer interior. Still comfortable with good head and legroom and nicer interior. Hyundai is getting better and better all the time. If there was a Hyundai dealer here (which there may be because the town is growing) I'd get it in a heartbeat over anything that GM builds for the same price. The warranty is great and the cars are far better than the Aveo/Cavalier lot being sold by GM.

280hp · April 2004

i still like the accent better. based on its simplicity and more austere style. its styling cues also seem more traditional, unlike cars like the echo or elantra, which takes some getting used 2.

also, im only willing to pay bottom dollar for korean, since ive never owned korean yet.

ps - daewoo and kia were both also improving, with increasing sales, when they went under. it may have something to do with their corporate structure, rather than their cars. the gm structure used 2 look very good, but is slowly beginning 2 unravel. u could b right, after absorbing so many brands and failing 2 consolidate, they may also b on the way out. but the effects r unthinkable. sort of like a dolar crash.

lngtonge18 · April 2004

One correction to your relevance post. The Korean company you meant to say was Syangyong (I believe that is the correct spelling), not Samsung. Samsung is an electronics giant and is a well known name for quality and value. Syangyong was the SUV company that was bought out by Renault/Nissan.

Kia was having problems, but since Hyundai bought a controlling interest, they have been doing much better. The fact Hyundai had the money to buy into Kia shows they are doing pretty well.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2004

The reason I ask is that I can't believe your town doesn't have a Hyundai dealer. Actually, come to think of it, the town I live in doesn't have one either! I have to go 105 miles SW to Springfield, MO or 100 miles NE to St.Louis, MO to find a Hyundai dealer. I'm in little 'ole college-town Rolla, MO. I may not be aware of ALL of the Missouri Hyundai dealers, though. I'm still getting used to this state after living in Washington state for my first 43 years(!!)
   A few comments on the above posts. I was surprised to see 15 posts since I last visited-but not that surprised because I think "low-end" is only going to grow in popularity for Americans. Give it time-I think low-end cars are going to become more and more of a necessity for American consumers as the war in Iraq looms to be a long-term affair. Sad but looking kind of true.
   I want to add that I don't totally disrespect Ford. I have owned a '66 Ford Fairlane that was a good car that I could work on. I owned a '65 Ford Mustang that I could work on and I loved. It was NOT perfect mechanically and I didn't like it completely because of that. Always something going wrong with it. I also owned a new '94 Ford Escort wagon that had one problem...an exhaust manifold blew on it. That was fixed under warranty at no cost to me except my time. I owned a 1986 Mercury Lynx station wagon that actually caught on fire! No kidding-the steering column enclosed a faulty wiring harness that sparked on key-turn...eventually the Lynx and Escort were recalled to fix this problem. Ford needed to fix mine BEFORE the recall hit, though! BTW, my insurance forced me to pay for the wiring harness as my policy stated that the insured MUST PAY for the part that caused the problem(in this case a fire). Kinda expensive but everything got put back together all right. I did not hate the Lynx although it also blew a headgasket on me. Not perfect mechanically, either. Lastly, for Fords that I 've owned, I traded the '94 Ford Escort wagon in on a 1997 Ford Escort sedan. As I recall, not a single mechanical problem with this little sedan. Purple in color and ran like a top. I traded it in on a 1999 Kia Sephia sedan and I've been digging Kia and Hyundai's ever since.
  The only other two cars I've owned were a 1973 Plymouth Gold Duster and a 1970 Chevy Suburban SUV. One of the first large SUV's and built like a tank! I've turned my attention to the South Korean imports totally since May of 1999.
   backy-your post #1605 above is very notable in that for Hyundai and Kia is points up their big improvements of late. Funny thing is, it hit me in about the late summer of 1999 cruising in the Sephia WHAT A FUN AND ENTERTAINING CAR THIS IS TO DRIVE! I loved it and I didn't trade it out of necessity for my '01 Kia Sportage 4x4, I traded it becasue I loved it and wanted to try a new and different Kia model. My wife and I decided to sit up higher in the Sportage mini-ute and I think it's gonna be little SUV's for the next few rigs for us. The Sportage has been a wonderful SUV.
     BTW, host, I don't think this one's in danger of being put on "READ ONLY" but I just wanna put my single vote in to keep this pup around. It's a regular stop for me and always interesting.

280hp · April 2004

no. i meant to say samsung. in hindsight its silly for a company with no motor experience to go into the business, but thats how ill adviced the koreans were.

iinm, Syangyong is owned by daimlerchrysler, or they will b when they stop paying their bills...

s 2 kia, hyundai, its a shame that kia had 2 b saved s it drains scarce financial resources from developing new platforms and improving production quality.

for example, daimlerchrysler seems 2 b worst off post merger...

but backy is right, we're not talking cars anymore. perhaps we can move the discussion 2 a more appropriate part of the forums...

Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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