Low End Sedans (under $16k)

tazereli

I opened this discussion to compare lower end cars from all the major ountries that sell cars here in States.

fangio2

What price range did you have in mind?

merc1

Well there is only true "low-end" Euro car, that being VW, as far as price is concerned.

M

fangio2

but I guess you are right.I wonder why no other European car has been successful here.In Europe,Renault,Fiat,Peugeot etc are plentiful in this segment of the market.
The VW really isn't inexpensive,like the Accents,Lanos,Rios,EsteemsFocus and GM j-body cars.It seems the European manufacturers have abandoned us -in this market here.
At the low end it would seem the Koreans have the most to offer.They certainly have a lock under $10,000.

tazereli

I meant to include that the cars should be under $20K. For the sake of argument however I wanted to include VW's offerings here. Perhaps a better title would have been "who makes the best compact cars" or something like that. I want to take price out of the equasion because people should debate the cars not the price. This is a completly open forum so any compact car sold here as of today (5.23.01) may be included. I hope this clears up any confusion

mmcbride1

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the low profit margins on these cars that keeps most Euro. competition out. You figure they have to build them (using the high labor rates in Europe), and then ship them here. Most people buying cars in this segment are very price conscious. That extra $1-2000 could be a deal-breaker on a car that the mfg. doesn't make much on to begin with.

fangio2

I think its hard to remove price as a factor.A lot of people select from this market because of price.
In my case $20,000 was the limit,I was going to spend.I had started with the idea of a Gllant with the 6 cyl engine.A good friend had a 95 Diamante and I really liked that car.I also looked at Honda LX and EX models 4s and 6s.The Toyota Altima and Camry were also considerations.
All the cars were pretty good.The HONDA LX 4cyl was the least interesting to me.I was hoping to get leather and the Accord with this option was too expensive.iI found the styling ok,but not too exciting.
The Camry 4cyl seemed more responsive;everything else about equal to the Accord.I was just not comfortable in the car,don't know why.The Gallant was a disappointment.I guess,I expected a small Diamante.Overall quality seemed lower the the Accord or Camry.The Gallant 4cyl was the smoothest of the 4s,though.
The cost of these cars with 6 cyl motors and the features I wanted was over $20,000.I did't consider VW because of cost and reports from people who owned then.Nothing real bad just more then I wanted to be bothered with.
I was on my way to the KIA dealer.I had read a review on the Optima-loaded with a 6 for around $20,000.I had never ever considered a Korean car before.A friend had owned 2 in the late 80's and early 90's.Seemed like he was getting new engines every month(Hyundai).But ,the 100,000 mile warranty helped me overcome my reservations.
On the way we passed a DAEWOO dealer.I confused it with DAHATSUI-a friend had had a Charade and really liked it -so I stopped.The KIA dealer was about a half mile up the road.
To make a long story longer ,I bought a DAEWOO.The car had every option I wanted and more.The car has a 4cyl motor,but is quick in the city and great on the highway.In fact, the only thingI would change is the tires.It has KUMHO tires,a Korean brand-h rated.I've always liked Goodyear Tiger Paws-smooth ride.For under $15,000 it is unbeatable.
Given the state of DAEWOOS finances its somewhat of a gamble.BUT,the engine is a Holden motor(GM) and the transmission is a Toyota design,so maintenance should be no big deal.

merc1

Yeah they (Europeans) have given up on the lower end of the market here. Even VW has luxury car plans/aspirations now, of which I don't really think will work, nor do I fully understand with Audi being their luxury brand.

M

majorthomecho

What is this world coming to when less than $20,000 is considered the low end. $20,000 is a pretty expensive low end car.

In my mind, a low end car would sell for $13,000 or under.

America, Europe, and Japan (except for Toyota's Echo and some Suzuki offerings) have virtually conceded this market segment to the Koreans.

merc1

The Japanese just don't make the money in the "lower" category anymore, or at least not as much as they would like to make. If the Toyota Echo doesn't do it this time Toyota will most likely give it up too and stick with the larger more profitable Corolla as their "entry-level" car. Nissan and Honda have left this segment and the Koreans are eating it up at moment. It's hard to build a car for 13K nowadays.

M

iluvmysephia1

also. Since they're enjoying success at this level and in the US the cars are selling I wouldn't expect a large MSRP jump. Can they turn a profit selling a car for $8,000-$12,000? With the won's value compared to their worker's wages and the fact that Kia is part of Hyundai I would say they can. To build factories in the U.S. with this level of sales I would think is a bit of a leap. I don't know though, Hyundai is not afraid to borrow money. At all.

bluffhouse

The Japanese can't build good cars for cheap anymore. That's why they charge so much for cheap cars. Most of their profits went into real estate, not their factories. With GM buying Daewoo, you will only watch the Japanese cars disappear into the sunset, or be partially bought out by GM (the small part worth buying). For now GM has it's focus on Daewoo because of it's state of the art factories, all new. Daewoo currently owns the most productive plants in the world. They are setting next to the largest steel producer, have all the electronic expertise, top notch engineers and inexpensive highly skilled labor.

merc1

Well they aren't able to do it as cost-effectively as they could before. The new Honda Civic is a good example, it's a nice car, but for the first time in the last 3-4 redesigns it now screams cheap. Yes the Koreans will gladly take this segment over and then over time they too will move upmarket as a whole. The XG300 is only the first baby step.

M

bluffhouse

They will be in a good position to give the popular Japanese midsizes a run for the money. Not only does the new Leganza surpass both Accord and Camry but will be a good alternative to the Maxima and the Avalon. Look at the SUV sector, the new Hyunda already outperforms everybody on the crash test. Everybody else may want to start thinking about a fresh design.

majorthomecho

How does the new Leganza surpass the Accord and Camry? And who said it?

majorthomecho

From what I understand in reading the Daewoo bankruptcy discussion here on Edmunds, it is not definite that GM will keep Daewoo open here in the United States.

From what I understand, they want access to Asian markets and this is why they are contemplating the purchase.

Given that the Prizm is going bye bye as is the Metro, perhaps GM will buy Daewoo and sell the current Daewoo lineup as Chevrolet badged vehicles.

majorthomecho

It is my understanding that a dealer sees about $300 profit (best case) when selling an Echo. Does anyone know how much profit Toyota sees from the sale of this model?

jstandefer

I highly doubt the Koreans will push the Japanese off "into the sunset". And I don't believe GM has much interest in marketing Daewoo here in the U.S. GM is trying to expand its global market and streamline its domestic product. Geo was an expensive and poor attempt for GM to "battle the imports". Their next attempt was much better, Saturn, but it too appears to be falling rapidly downhill and probably will see the axe, just like Oldsmobile.

The Koreans, particularly Hyundai, have made huge strides over the years to improve their reliability and quality. For the most part, they have succeeded. However, their vehicles still lack the sophistication and refinement of the Japanese vehicles. In a very recent Motor Trend comparison of the Hyundai XG300 against the Dodge Stratus and Honda Accord, it was mentioned that the XG300's road manners could use some tidying up. That goes for just about all of the Korean cars sold here today. It takes a lot of experience to refine a vehicle's driving dynamics. And that's where the expensive R&D starts driving up vehicle costs. Eventually, the Korean vehicles will near the Japanese in overall refinement, sophistication, and driveability, but they could very well lose their price advantage in the process.

Right now, I think the Japanese make the best "low-end" cars on the market. They may not be the cheapest, but they are the best in terms of overall quality, reliability, and refinement. Cars such as the Corolla, Civic, Protege, and Sentra display such qualities much better than the Neon, Cavalier, Sunfire, Lanos, Elantra, and Sephia. The exception would be the Focus, which ranks with the Japanese cars. The Golf is impressive but is pushing the financial limits of "low-end" and still has some reliability issues to work out (they're good, but still not up to par with the Japanese).

majorthomecho

Excuse me, but the Focus does not rank up there with the Japanese in my opinion. It had too many recalls for your statement to be true.

iluvmysephia1

the Kia process with the Cray super-computer will accomplish this refinement along with Kia's own track testing, wind tunnel testing process, crash testing, etc. The Kia and Hyundai process,price, warranty,value and might I add, looks, already top all Japanese models. It would be way cool to see Honda trail off to Australia or back to Japan or head over to Singapore. Malaysia! They're the dudes who had to have the tallest skyscrapers in the world! Thay wouldn't mind the boring looks and high prices of the Japanese cars, would they?

majorthomecho

It seems like when people use the word value in connection with cars, they mean just the price paid for the features you get. On that basis, yes the Kias and Hyundais are good values.

However, value (to me) also means quality of workmanship, how dependable the car is, and the resale value.

On the basis of initial quality alone, I don't think that the Kias are good values. According to the latest J.D. Powers survey of initial quality, the Sephia had 250 problems per 100 cars. The Rio had 255 problems per 100 cars. I believe the Sportage and the Spectra were right around there, but I did not write those numbers down.

Consumer Guide (please note this is different from Consumer Reports) has a category called value. 10 is the highest and 1 is the lowest. They gave the Rio a 1, the Sephia/Spectra a 2, and the Sportage a 1 for the manual version and a 2 for the auto version.

Finally, Money magazine had an article about cars a few months back. One fact that they listed was the resale value of cars after five years. The Rio will be worth 23%. The Sephia will be worth 22%. The Spectra will be worth 20%. The Sportage will be worth 31 or 32% depending on the trim level.

Kias have improved, don't get me wrong. But topping the Japanese, I don't think so.

pat

Hi friends,

Catherine Heins is looking for people to interview who have switched from American to Japanese cars in the past few years-- especially folks who wouldn't have given a Toyota or Honda the time of day in the 1970s.

She's a business reporter at the Yomiuri Shimbun, which is the biggest daily paper in Japan with a circulation of 14 million. They are writing a feature story about Japanese automakers' continuing success in expanding production in the U.S. and snatching market share from the Big Three even on their former home turf of light trucks.

If you fit this description and are willing to be interviewed, please call her directly at 212-582-5827 or e-mail her at catheins@yahoo.com. As always, you can contact me at jfallon@edmunds.com if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

iluvmysephia1

The Toyota Echo looks a lot like it never got over the lasagne and wilty salad served at the value buffet on that busy Sunday afternoon 4 months ago and had to resort to uncomfortable measures to breathe again. All of that drivel you posted about Kia from Consumer Guide (like we're going to start drooling in instant appreciation) adds up to hill of dried livestock chips when it's all said and done and expired. Those car magazines are slanted, paid off, uninspiring, uneducational and stuck in a huge Japanese rut that needs to exposed for the lie that it is. I see Mr.major's going to leave his trail of anti-Hyundai/Kia literature at every Edmunds.com site that Kia is slandered at. Okee-chokee! Kia and Hyundai are here selling cars with great warranty's, low prices and great looks. Japanese models are overpriced and uninspiring. The Echo can't hold a shakey candle to Kia's Rio in looks. Mechanically the Rio's there and the warranty, price and better looks make it an easy decision.

bluffhouse

J.D. Powers does not mention reliability in thier report. All they report are defects. Defects range from very small like a warpped trim piece to quite severe like a transmission. Either way, most the cars built today are quite reliable. With the Korean cars, Hyunda/KIA is the current leaders in safety with Daewoo not having released it's new Leganza. As for performance, the the four cylinder category, the Leganza has the highest top speed, highest skidpad and compareable braking to Both the Accord and Camry. The Camry has safety weaknesses in side impact structural integrity. Other ares untested and unconfirmed are roll over and rear end crashworthiness. Outside of that, the Koreans are all ready also buiding more attractive vehicles than the Japanese. In al respect, the Japanese are no longer a benchmark for the Koreans, but the Koreans are the benchmark for the Japanese.

majorthomecho

It is funny that 9 times out of 10, people have to fall back on attacking my car's looks.

Okay, I take it that you (Iluv) don't trust car magazines. What about actual owners?

AutoPacific does surveys of actual owners annually and how satisfied they are with their cars. 1,000 points is the most you can score. Kia Sephia owners gave their cars a score of 576. The Sephia is in the compact car class and only the Dodge Neon had a lower satisfaction score out of the 28 vehicles listed.

Also, what do you say about the fact that J.D. Powers results come from actual owners? You make the claim that Korean cars are just as good as Japanese cars. The number of defects per maker overall shows that is not the case.

Bluff, I mentioned J.D. Powers in reference to build quality, but I think it would be reasonable to think that low initial quality of things you can see or know will probably translate to long term reliability problems.

Bluff, some time back you made a statement and I asked for a source. The statement was that the new Leganza surpasses the Accord and Camry. Again, I ask how does it surpass the other two and what is your source? More recently you claimed that the Leganza has the highest top speed of the three, highest skidpad, and comparable braking. What is your source for this information. I have checked the listings for performance tests in Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and Consumer Reports. I have also checked the Daewoo website. I cannot find any substantiation for your claim. If this were true, you would think that Daewoo would tout it on their website.

Again, I think the Koreans are doing a lot better, but they are not as good as the Japanese. And when they get as good as the Japanese are today, well, the Japanese will have moved on higher up the road of quality.

majorthomecho

I thought you might be talking about the Magnus when you were talking about the Leganza so I went and read every post in that discussion. Yes, every 178 of them.

I found it really funny how insulting you were to supporters of Honda and Toyota cars.

I also found it funny that you made the same claims about the Leganza being better that you made here. Someone asked you for your source and strangely, you were silent. Will you remain silent or give me some proof to back up your statement?

Yes, the Leganza does get a better side impact rating for the front occupant than the Camry in the NHTSA tests. What you fail to mention is that the rating for the rear occupant is the same and the Camry does much better in the frontal collision test.

Also, you fail to mention the fact that the Leganza got the lowest rating from the Insurance Institute For Highway Safety. It got a poor overall. The Camry got the highest rating from the Institute. It got a good overall.

Nice try at trying to make people think the Leganza was as safe or safer than the Camry.

badtoy

Let's take the bit about GM buying out the Japanese makes. I believe it went something like....

"The Japanese can't build good cars for cheap anymore. That's why they charge so much for cheap cars. Most of their profits went into real estate, not their factories. With GM buying Daewoo, you will only watch the Japanese cars disappear into the sunset, or be partially bought out by GM (the small part worth buying)."

Sorry, Mr. (or Ms) iluvmysephia....if anyone does the buying , Toyota will buy GM, not the othe way round. They're the only ones who have the cash to do so. And Toyota and Honda both continually improve their production systems -- it's called "kaizen." And Nissan is already beginning to be a force to be reckoned with again, now that Carlos Ghosn squared them away.

It continues, "For now GM has it's focus on Daewoo because of it's state of the art factories, all new. Daewoo currently owns the most productive plants in the world. They are setting next to the largest steel producer, have all the electronic expertise, top notch engineers and inexpensive highly skilled labor."

So why couldn't they turn a profit on their own? I have a friend who works at Daewoo headquarters here in Torrance, and his opinion of the way they do business would make you squirm.

Which isn't to say that I don't think they make some kinda nice cars -- I believe they do, as do Hyundai and Kia. But as has been said before, they only charge the prices they do and offer the warranties they do because that's the only way they can get people to buy them. For now, at least.

I hope for their and our sakes that their quality will continue to improve, because that gives us all more choices and forces the other automakers to do better themselves. But the Toyota Production System is still the envy of the manufacturing world, and has yet to be duplicated with the success of the original. Ford is preparing to go to that system in order to save its own hide. I don't believe they've benchmarked Daewoo.

Dream on, little Sephia, dream on....

fangio2

and posting you do when do you get a chance to drive your Echo?You make some intersting observations,but tend to overkill.Just enjoy your car--lighten up.

majorthomecho

Thanks for the concern Fangio, but I find plenty of time to drive my car. But you know, the same could be said about a lot of other people. : )

iluvmysephia1

What a joke! If Toyota is the envy of all of the production world why couldn't they make an attractive 4-door sedan? Kia's Sephia blows all Japanese models outta 'da water. No competition at all. No, badtoy, you're wrong. I could have sprung for a dull looking Civic or Corolla but they look so dull and ininspiring I couldn't even bear looking at them. I wasn't worried about quality because I know that all makers have quality control problems because people aren't perfect. A perfect car can't be made. I bought my Sephia before the Long-Haul warranty came out so I got a lesser warranty but it's not a selling factor anyway. Now after 2 years of driving my Kia I see through personal experience that quality is not and was never something to make me shake silly in my cowboy boots. You "all Japanese or nothing types" crack me up! People are that wimpy with their cash and listen to their biased relatives and friends that easily that straying away from Japanese models is like spitting on your traffic cop when he's handing you your speeding ticket? Kia and Hyundai have arrived and are smart enough to realize that the Japanese models don't have a grip on ALL Americans. It's nice to have a car manufacturer making quality cars at great prices with a great warranty. Bring on Sephia II boys!

majorthomecho

Iluv, I am sure glad that you don't worry about quality and I am sure that Kia is glad too.

I have said it before, but the Sephia had 255 problems per 100 vehicles in the latest J.D. Powers survey. Who knows how many problems there were with the 1999 Sephia. I also know there were three recalls involving the 1999 Sephia. Finally, there were many reports of brake problems.

Yeah, Kia and its quality sure has the rest of the automotive world worried.

Personally, you crack me up. You cannot beat people on a little something called facts when it comes to measures of quality, reliability, overall safety and resale values so you resort to name calling.

But if it makes you feel better about your purchase, be my guest.

iluvmysephia1

Yeah, right. Like I'm supposed to bow down to somebody who overly praises a Toyota Echo. Major, I'm not going to memorize a bunch of stats from the automotive "experts" or copy them down from articles from all over the place to try to prove my point. No need. I've found a car manufacturer that makes a great looking, quality car at a low price. Oh, that's right. You're busy finding trash on Hyundai-ooops I suppose it's just Kia that you hate. Sorry to bother you. If that Echo ever gets that lasagne uncorked please have the decency to not dump it on public land. There's enough Honda and Toyota quality all over the place as it is. I'll let you borrow my sledgehammer for free, though. No charge-that's just the kind of guy I am.

badtoy

the only thing you find to criticize about Toyotas and Hondas is the styling -- which is an entirely personal matter anyway. There's more to a car than the sheetmetal, guys -- and I'm perfectly willing to concede the point that the Echo is a homely little mutha. But if that's all you can say bad about it, I think the rest of us will stick to a proven quantity until time and experience prove us wrong.

In the meantime, enjoy your cars -- just try not to be so defensive and shrill about them, because it gives us the distinct impression that you're just trying to convince yourselves. You certainly haven't convinced us.

majorthomecho

Where have I said that I hate any car company? I do not hate Kia, Hyundai, or Daewoo.

The problem I have is that people are running around claiming that cars from these companies are so great and so much better than anything put out by the Japanese or anyone else.

The facts, which you conveniently pooh pooh, show otherwise.

Yes, the vehicles from these three makers cost less, but that does not mean they are a better overall value.

A word of advice. If you are using your insults trying to get a negative reaction from me, save your fingers. It is a waste of time.

majorthomecho

My 2001 Echo has not had one recall. Not one. Iluv, can you say the same about your 1999 Sephia?

iluvmysephia1

and not hide them. I'm just stating a point that nothing in my Kia experience or my treatment from my dealer or Kia themselves has caused me alarm. I'm not saying Kia's or Hyundai's are the best cars in the world. What I am saying is that they've produced a nice solidly-built car for a very affordable price. The warranty ain't bad, either. The looks can't be beat. No kidding. I like the Sephia's looks over ANY car on the road. That includes the whole snotty circus you can find out there. I like that. I like the looks of my Sephia with it's Yokohama's and Konig's. I saw another one at the store tonight that's the same color but with another brand of wheel on it. Looked great. Across the way sat a Hyundai Santa Fe. Looked fantastic. What I'm saying is that all you "it's got to be Japanese or it don't shine" types are real dim-witted about Hyundai's and Kia's. Just because some stupid magazine like Car and Dribbler prints a bunch of paid-off drivel putting down Kia you believe it? Think for yourselves. Oh well, I'll just sit back, enjoy my Sephia and continue to enjoy Hyundai and Kia's sales success as it climbs up. Continue to dig your bland looking overpriced Japanese vehicles. It's your choice.

majorthomecho

Would you care to give us proof as to what problems (that have been hidden) you are talking about? Are you talking about Mitsu? That is true that they hid problems, but my car is from Toyota. What problems do you say Toyota has hidden?

I am not saying that the Japanese cars are the best in the world. I am just saying that Japanese cars in general are better than Daewoo, Hyundai, or Kia.

You say, "they've produced a nice, solidly-built car for a very affordable price." You know what? That is the same way I feel about my Echo.

You also say, "the warranty ain't bad, either." I believe you said that you bought your vehicle before the 10 year/100,000 mile power train went into effect. If so, you must agree with me that Toyota does not have a bad warranty either. I feel very confident that I will need to use my warranty less than you will. I also feel confident that I will have less non-routine work done out of warranty than Kia owners with a longer warranty will have done within the warranty.

Here you go again with the insults. You say,"all you "it's got to be Japanese or it don't shine types" are real dim-witted about Hyundai's [sic] and Kia's [sic]. Just because some stupid magazine like Car and Dribbler prints a bunch of paid-off drivel putting down Kia you believe it. Think for yourselves."

You might want to brush up on libel laws because you just libeled Car and Driver unless you can prove that they are paid off.

I don't really trust Car and Driver's opinions about cars, but I use them as a source for performance data along with some other sources.

I have two facts that prove Car and Driver is not paid off.

For what is worth, they have not been that complementary toward the Echo. Not that I agree with them. If they had been paid off, they would have heaped praise on the Echo.

The second fact is that they did a review of the Rio. If they had been paid off, as you allege, they would have savaged the car. They did point out the car's faults, but in the final analysis, the verdict was that the Rio was "a decent ride."

I guess in your mind, good review for a Korean car means independent source and bad review for a Korean car means paid off hack?

Yes, I think for myself. I take information from many different sources (including my own personal observations) before coming to a decision.

Finally, you say, "the looks can't be beat." Well, that is the way I feel about my Echo. Yes, there are some styling points I would change about it, but overall I think it is the best looking car on the road today. Definitely not bland.

One more thing. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I say that I hate the looks of any of the Korean offerings. You won't be able to do it. I stay away from things like style generally because they are subjective. My posts deal mainly with things like skid pad numbers, 0 to 60 times, initial quality surveys, and satisfaction surveys. I feel these are more objective. Yes, I do bring up issues of comfort and value, but I am trying to give a well rounded view. When I am posting in my comparison discussion about the Echo versus other cars and another car beats the Echo in some measure, I will let people know. It is just the kind of guy I am.

Care to try to answer the fact that Sephia owners reported 250 initial quality problems in the most recent J.D. Powers survey?

Care to try to answer the fact that Echo owners were more satisfied with their vehicle than Sephia owners were with their vehicle in the most recent Auto Pacific Vehicle Satisfaction Survey?

Care to try to answer that without using insults or bringing up style?

jstandefer

Since I guess the Kia Sephia is SO much better than any Japanese car... would you care to enlighten me on how it bests my Protege ES?

I'm sorry, but the Koreans are still attempting to catch up to the Japanese, not the other way around! It seems to me that in most comparison tests, the Korean cars fall way behind the Japanese vehicles. I'm not saying they're unreliable or have poor quality... I'm just saying that they still don't match the standards set by the Japanese and their refinement is still way off.

majorthomecho

I am sure that in the final analysis, Iluv will say that his Sephia is better than your Protege ES because your car is so bland and his is so stylish. ; )

majorthomecho

A few posts ago, I asked Iluv to explain about the fact that the Sephia was reported to have 250 initial quality issues. I need to make a correction. The Rio is the one with 250 initial quality issues. The Sephia actually has 255 issues. This according to the most recent J.D. Powers survey.

jstandefer

Amen!

That VW Passat is looking mighty nice! Drove one last year and came away absolutely impressed!! But you are right... That Passat I was looking at was only the GLS model (GLX being top) and it was already rapidly approaching $30k!!!

majorthomecho

When I post about vehicles, I don't feel that I am criticizing a person's choice of cars. I am merely responding to posts where someone makes a claim. I am merely posting facts in most cases. In other cases where I use vehicle satisfaction surveys, I am pointing out the opinions of actual owners.

To me criticizing someone's choice in cars is where you talk about how the car looks overall and that I leave to the other guy.

mpgman

I'd feel a lot better about magazines like C&D if just once they came out and said....Sorry...we are not impressed enough with anything....There in no Car of the Year this year. Of course, no one would buy the magazine then...and that is the point about magazines like C&D. Read them for fun, not for the absolute truths. Too much reliance on the advertising dollar and the like.

majorthomecho

A person also needs to understand that Car and Driver is more impressed with cost. A lot of times it seems like the high end cars get more respect from them.

As an enthusiast of low end cars, I think that is a shame.

bluffhouse

The little Echo probably cost almost what my Leganza cost. The Lexus RX300 cost almost twice the Santa Fe. Camry's reach past the price of the XG300. What happened to inexpensive transportion from Japan? I was personally screwed by Toyota on my Celica. I know their qualiy has improved, but their customer service lacks big time. Most likely, you will get excellent service from your toy. The problem occurs when you get the piece of bacon on the side that's all messed up. This happens to all cars. With Saturn they'll ofer you a new car, Daewoo will go BK helping you, Hyundai provides full coverage for 6/60 & pow/drive for 10/100. If you happen to be the one that got Celica they forgot to lube the tranny on, your screwed. If you crank trust bearing fails, they give you a short block and leave the damaged head suffering oil pressure loss to the timing chain tensioner. Your spun tranny bearing is called, "muffler noise". I hate to break it to you, but there is a lot of pissed off people at Toyota. My upgrade stereo that the cassette never worked was grand. Then my cracked brake drum sure ate the brakes up. Even my scratched windshield on Tercel never got changed, due to the wiper blade slipping on (at 3,000 mi).
So here's what you get with Toyota, excessive price, marginal styling, and poor service. With the Korean lineup, you getred carpet service, durable cars, fresh styling, great value.
To say the Japanese have some kind of quality edge is no longer real. The Korean factories are way newer, using state of the art robotics. You can complain about the limited selection. That's a real thing, but inferior quality, tha't what the Japanese makers want people to think.
All I saying is to go at things with an open mind. Most of us has had a number of years to see the Japanese stuff. The Korean thing is too new to continue to write of as poor quality. All the things that meet the eyes indicate the Korean as the new quality leader. If the cars look better, they probably are.

iluvmysephia1

hey, bluffhouse, thanks for the truth in reviewing I just read of yours above. You want to know how I can claim that what you and I are claiming is indeed true? Easy. The Korean cars LOOK WAY BETTER, cost way less, the service department wants you to be happy and all taken care of, your car won't cost you favorite things that you also like. Reading your post above is great testimony to car truth. There is WAY TOO MUCH CONTINUED HYPE FOR THE JAPANESE MODELS. I've driven Korean for 2 years and I only feel stronger towards the Korean cars as each week passes. A close look at their manufacturing processes at their website is very revealing. Everything is designed with the person in mind from the start. Sounds simple? I's rather have a car company try to please my driving needs than be so concerned about snapping up my hard-earned cash. If I start out paying less for a Korean car it stands to reason that I'm gonna get less in trade. Trade-in time is not a factor when I buy a car. My Sephia shows no signs of slowing down at 64,300 miles. Not at all. No need to trade in unless I want to. If I do it'll be on another Kia or a Hyundai. VW's? Sorry, they too feel like they have to stiff your pocketbook to justify their expense at making you one of their fancy-dancy "German-engineered cars". Not nearly enough going for it to look away from Kia or Hyundai. Apparently more and more Americans are pulling their heads out of their, uh, armpits and seeing the Kia or Hyundai solution to the nonsense that they see on sales lots in America.

majorthomecho

Thanks for the laughs, guys. You talk about quality, but you conviently ignore the J.D. Powers' survey and the AutoPacific survey which are the views of actual owners.

Bluff, you made some claims about the Leganza and I asked you to back them up. Someone else asked you to back them up sometime before that, but you never have.

Care to back it up now?

Again, thanks for the laughs.

majorthomecho

I am laughing so hard I can barely see straight.

I hope you don't misunderstand, but I want to quote some of what you said and respond. I think there may be a language barrier so that is why I say I hope you don't misunderstand. Also, I am correcting one or two misspellings. I am not doing this to poke fun at you or anything like that. It will just make it easier for someone to follow the "conversation."

You say, "to say the Japanese have some kind of quality edge is no longer real. [snip].... inferior quality, that's what the Japanese makers want people to think."

Try telling that to actual owners of Hyundai, Kia, and Daewoo cars who participated in the J.D. Powers surveys. Try telling that to actual owners who participated in the AutoPacific survey.

You say, "All I say is go at things with an open mind."

Why don't you think I did? It was about a year and a half to two years between the time I thought about a new car before I bought one. During that time, I read a lot, talked to a lot of people who owned various cars, looked at a number of cars, and test drove quite a few.

You say, "most of us have had a number of years to see the Japanese stuff."

Just what age do you think I am? To paraphrase a popular song, "I got my license in the day, but it wasn't yester-day." I have been around long enough to see the Japanese stuff. And the Korean stuff.

Finally, you say, "the Korean thing is too new to continue to write off as poor quality."

Excuse me? I believe in giving people and companies the benefit of the doubt, but your statement is ridiculous. I think the newness (and the past track record) is a reason not to trust them entirely. Note I did not say to never trust them.

They just need to earn the trust. It should not be blindly given to them.

majorthomecho

I want to explain further why I quoted from your post. It is a habit that I picked up from posting on AOL's message boards. Over there, it is considered polite to quote some from what you are responding so people who are lurking can follow along. I hope you understand.

I did this quoting with a letter someone sent me so that they could see what I was responding to and they went ballistic. I think there was a language barrier and they did not understand my motivation. I was not trying to make fun of them either.

I could have dealt with your misspellings in one of three ways. I could have used the editor's mark [sic] which basically means this is how something originally appeared, but I was worried you would not understand. I could have corrected the misspellings and not said anything. Or I could have corrected the misspellings and let you know what I had done. I thought the third way was the most honorable.

I am sorry that you did not have good luck with your Toyotas and the dealerships that worked on them. You want us to give Hyundai, Kia, and Daewoo a chance, but it seems that you want us to write off the Japanese simply because of your bad experience.

Well, having talked to a number of actual Toyota (and Japanese car) owners as well as reading a lot and talking to a number of actual Korean made car owners as well as reading a lot, this led me to the conclusion that there are more unhappy Korean car owners than Toyota and other Japanese car owners. Note that I said owners. I am not talking about auto publication editors or the perceptions of the general public, but owners of the vehicles.

Also, Toyota and most of the other Japanese makers have a track record for quality and reliability while Kia and Hyundai (at least) have track records for low quality and non reliability. According to the J.D. Powers surveys I have seen bandied about, Daewoo does better on initial quality. The big drawbacks with them are that they are financially weak, small dealer network, safety issues, and an uncertain future here in the United States.

And just because you had bad luck with the dealership does not mean I will. Granted, I have only been to my dealership for one oil change, but I felt very well treated. I brought in my Echo (the most inexpensive currently produced Toyota Passenger car) and got the same level of great attention as the guy who brought in his Avalon (the most expensive Toyota passenger car currently produced) for work.

I have had one complaint about "my" dealer and that was they were suggesting the oil changes be done at 3,500 miles, but having talked to many owners of many different makes, this seems to be standard. Even if your owner manual says 5,000 or 7,500 miles between oil changes, the dealer is going to suggest that 3,000 mile interval.

My apologies for the long post.

Happy motoring.

majorthomecho

For lack of something cheaper to do (driving my Echo would be better, but not cheaper since gas still costs money no matter how little I use), I have been doing a lot of reading.

It seems like you owned a lot of older Toyotas and it seems like it has been some time ago. I was just wondering what the model year of newest Toyota you owned was. Also, did you buy any of these Toyotas new or were they all used? If used, that might be your problem right there. No matter how good a car starts out if it is abused, it is bound to have problems later on.

Also, when was the last time you took a look at a Toyota and examined things like fit and finish?

In case you are wondering, I examined Daewoo, Hyundai, and Kia (among others) for fit and finish back in March of this year so it is not like my personal information is that old.

Can you say the same?

carleton1

We do not yet own a Toyota and never have. However, of all vehicles owned by all the people I know, the Toyota has the fewest problems...all types of Toyota. We were VERY impressed with the ECHO when we test drove one almost 2 years ago. It had good seating position, outstanding fuel economy, good performance, great ride and very roomy for a small car. It is far superior to the many small cars we have owned and purchased NEW: 1971 Chevy Vega, 1971 VW Super Beetle, 1972 Volvo 145S, 1975 VW Rabbit, and 1980 Chevy Citation.
However, now that we are 63 years old, we like a nicer quality seat covering, padded armrests on doors, fold down armrests for front seats, Cruise Control, padded and carpeted door panels and other niceties found on all Siennas. The Odyssey is nice but lacks padded arm rests on doors, Dual Zone Temp, Overhead console of our Grand Caravan. MPV is underpowered and felt much smaller than the Sienna. The Sienna is THE MOST comfortable vehicle for us and we would have purchased one in 1999 if we had looked more closely. I believed the drivel in car magazines that Sienna was nice but too small and too expensive. We did NOT even look at Sienna for that reason.
Friends have had major problems with Hondas, Nissans, Mazdas, Hyundais, all European brands,all American brands,etc...BUT not one has had any problems with a Toyota. Truly remarkable...and that is why I feel Toyota is THE most reliable brand.