Low End Sedans (under $16k)

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Comments

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    No you really saw a Daewoo. If you want more than any car enthusiast could ever want to read about a foreign car maker that's bankrupt and needs to be bailed out come over to the Daewoo bankruptcy site here at Edmunds.com. Be prepared to read, though. I've never seen such hot air spewed about online before. Facts and figures and hearsay and whodunits and who didn't finance whom and the law says this and no, the law says that and blah-blah-blah. Seems that GM could buy Daewoo Motors of S.Korea. I won't go any further. Click over there and dig what you see. Personally I hope Daewoo stays in the game. Seeing them go would be kind of like seeing one of your favorite slurpee flavors get replaced with a boring tasteless brand that just kind of butts their way in (that would be GM). I like the looks of SOME of Daewoo's models-namely Lanos and Leganza. Those look pretty interesting to me. Whether I'd take a buyer's stance with Daewoo is another story. Not when Kia and Hyundai are struttin' as they are!!!!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • dweezildweezil Member Posts: 271
    Trade before it starts to "cost" you money?
    With all due respect;you will never "save" money by replacing rather than repairing your current vehicle.Depreciation, taxes, licensing, higher insurance costs etc.I'm not flaming, but there is no art to throwing money away. This is part of the myth about cars that dealers LOVE to promote.It's one thing if a car is totally clapped out and unreliable.But if it's only being replaced because it's 3 or 4 years old people are only doing a sales job on themselves.Cars are far more long lasting today and I'll bet there ARE people out there waiting for your "lemons", because you've gotten them nicely broken in for the next owner!! :-)
    Now if you do it because you LIKE having a new car every three or four years and all the junk that goes along with that fine. But you aren't saving any money that way and you never will. It's false economy.And yes I remember the days when 2 or 3 Pintos for the "low end " price of one Civic, Elantra or Sentra!!! Yet as a relative price, it's right in line adjusted for inflation.
    Please; didn't mean to offend and this isn't a flame, but I think I've expressed it before, I'm CHEAP so saving money is a lifestyle choice as well as a philosophy.And after a few years even I can get sick of the same vehicle and I've used the same arguments to convince myself to get a new one.[though I've had my 63 Valiant for 20 years. It's not a car at this point... it's FAMILY!]
    It's sort of like that line in "Christine" That the old geezer who owns the Plymouth says [that's always edited out on TV]:"There's nothin' better than the smell of a new car...'ceptin' maybe....*****!"
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I thought that the 4-door Lanos had been dropped from the line-up as of the 2001 model year. If I am correct, I have no idea what you were seeing, CJ.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I totally disagree with your last post on low end cars. The definition of a low end car cannot be based on what you paid for your vehicle.

    If we go by a dollar figure, it needs to be the MSRP of a base vehicle, but I also think you need to look at where a vehicle is in terms of a manufacturers line up.

    The Hyundai Sonata has a base price of $14,999 so if you went solely by price, this would mean the Sonata was a low end car, but until the XG300 came along, this was Hyundai's top offering thus it is not a low end car on that basis.

    The same thing could be said of the Toyota Corolla. It has a base model with an MSRP of below $15,000, but I don't think that too many people consider it a low end car.

    However, and I am not trying to put down your car, but I think that the Sephia is a low end car although it is not Kia's entry level offering. I guess I feel that way because the base MSRP is so far below $15,000.

    Understand that I don't think that a car being low end automatically makes it bad. In fact, I think there are some very nice low end cars. I happen to be driving one. : )
  • cjaccettacjaccetta Member Posts: 236
    major -- I swear it was an emerald green four-door Daewoo. Now, it may not have been a Lanos -- perhaps it was a Nubira -- I couldn't get a close enough look at the badges because I was in Jersey rush-hour traffic and I didn't want to provoke anyone's road rage (or gunfire) by following too closely. It looked smaller than the Nubiras I have been in previously. And it definitely wasn't a Leganza. Anyway, it was a real looker. Credit Daewoo with some neat styling efforts.

    CJA
  • dweezildweezil Member Posts: 271
    While it is nice theory that Hyundais/Kias are "unsalable" used or that they'll sit forever waiting for a buyer, I doubt that that is true in the real world.
    That extra 1000.00 dollars people keep throwing around is even more important when shopping for low end transportation than it is when buying new.
    A buyer wants the newest car with the lowest mileage with the smallest price.NOT where you'll find many Corollas or Civics making the Korean cars look even better. What's inexpensive new will be inexpensive on the used car lots.This is no crime. Would LOVE to get an XG300 for 50% off in two or three years.Jack pot for the used car buyer, great bargain new.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    unless I saw 2000 Lanos advertised in the 4-door sedan. Pretty sure last Sunday's classified auto ad had a 4-door 2001 Lanos advertised for around $10,299 after a $1500 rebate(or something close to that). I like the Lano's and Leganza's looks but I'm not anywhere near close to trade-in time on my '99 Sephia. Those prices are pretty low, though, for sure. The Daewoo line does cause me to stare out on the road if for no other reason that they're relatively new. Kinda cool looking, yes, but not able to touch the Sephia, IMHO.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I wish I could find my source for thinking that the 4-door Lanos had gone bye bye, but I have so many car magazines that finding something quickly is impossible. If (when?) I find it, I will post what magazine it was.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I have a neighbor who must find the Suzuki Esteem appealing. She has a wagon and a four door.
  • cjaccettacjaccetta Member Posts: 236
    I looked at the Esteem wagon. I think it's a sharp little car but it's hard to find 'em and dealers don't really try to offer the best prices. Plus, the price-to-feature content ratio could be better. Esteems seem costly for a "low-end" car.

    Suzuki makes really durable small engines, though. And every Suzuki vehicle I've ever been in looked like it was bolted togtether very tightly.
  • dweezildweezil Member Posts: 271
    and the 4door is a scream to look at. Friend of mine had a Metro and took it to 175,000 miles before it ever needed a clutch AND used it to haul all sorts of gardening supplies.
    Interesting note re:Mazda. I've seen two dealers in recent times disappear. The latest one switched over to HYUNDAI.Finally saw the new Protege and with all due respect it's pretty unremarkable in the looks department. I'm thinking however, that with the 5 door and MP3, they'll finally become more visible. The reviews for it have been good, but as with the Elantra power windows are standard even on the least expensive model!?!!
    This goes back to what I was saying about there being no attempt to hold the line on costs. And for MY purposes it only means the potential for something expensive to go wrong down the road. Electrical problems are STILL the major problem for ALL makes and they don't improve with age.
    Given that Consumer Reports "Best Buys" for 2001 according to their current Auto Buyers Guide least expensive car lists at 18,000 [Honda Civic]and goes all the way up from THERE, I wonder if it isn't simply a social phenomenon, a sign of the times,that will open the entry level market to the Koreans, perhaps the Malaysians [Proton] or other makes from places you'd never THINK would attemptselling in the American market.
    As to the Astre being the replacement for the Cavalier: I hope NOT.With the exception of the 4door, they look like the Daewoo built Pontiac LeMans of the late 80s. VERY dated, no matter HOW good the mechanicals are and very unappealing. Even keeping the current body and replacing with the Opel mechanicals would be a better idea.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    It is not Consumer Reports that has "Best Buys." It is Consumer Digest.
  • dweezildweezil Member Posts: 271
    Its their annual edition: "Top Picks 2001".I've got it right in front of me."Pick" or "buy" the point is still the same: their rarified staff choices say a lot about what they REALLY think.They're not as austere and cost concious for themselves as they'd like the public to think.
    For a bunch that see the automobile as just an appliance, they wouldn't put THEMSELVES in an inexpensive vehicle.It's okay for you and me, though.If I'm going to spend 20,000 for a car,it's NOT going to be a Honda Civic EX.I find the elitism pretty nasty, much the same way as in the political realm.WE can have a private retirement plan paid for by the public; but Social Security is just fine for the great unwashed out in "flyover country".
  • mpgmanmpgman Member Posts: 723
    If you are talking about Consumer Reports, there is a world of difference between a top pick and a best buy. I don't think there has been a "best buy" car since a Mercedes model was so designated about 30 years ago. You will find "best buys" in household appliances and other things like that in CR, but not for cars. Consumer's Digest, on the other hand, does have "best buy" cars.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    My point is that Best Buy is a trademarked term (I believe) exclusive to Consumer Digest.

    I disagree that Consumer Union and Consumer Reports wants everyone to think that they are "austere and cost conscious," so I don't fault them for picking the Honda Civic and not some Korean make. I think this austere notion is something that has gotten repeated so much by others that it has become a "fact" with no basis in reality.

    And check out the criteria for choosing the cars they did. The cars had to have excelled at CU's formal testing and had an average [or better] record of reliability.

    I challenge you to find any Korean model in that issue that meets both criteria. I have this guide and I don't see any that do.
  • mpgmanmpgman Member Posts: 723
    I like CR because they don't accept advertising, and also because they don't feel compelled to tout a "Car of the Year." What bothers me about CR is that they seem to take forever to test new models, and when they do, they might test only the manual or the automatic, but not both. (See Echo). Then, after highly recommending a car as the top in the class (see Focus), the next year they no longer recommend it due to reliability issues (see also Jetta). Tough to follow the bouncing ball when you are making such a commitment from your wallet.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Autonews reports that a modified version of the Astra will be the new Cavalier. But this will not be the Astra currently in use. Rather, it will be the Astra set to debut next year as a 2003 model. As Ford did with the Focus, GM now plans to keep its smaller, less expensive cars as close as possible world wide to decrease engineering and build expenses and hold the line on consumer costs. Bottom line to consumers is this very competitive segment will remain competitive, preventing significant cost increases.
  • cjaccettacjaccetta Member Posts: 236
    Reading the CU/CR auto tests is like reading a school textbook. Undoubtedly, those two sources offer a valuable information to the potential car buyer...but man, are they passionless.

    Are the testers that review the new cars the same folks who test microwave ovens, blue jeans and DVD players? That could explain the dullness of the reviews.

    Just my two cents.

    CJA
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    Mazda has closed a large percentage of their dealerships in the past two years. Two dealerships in the San Diego area have closed their doors in the past three years. Mazda began announcing they will close several dealerships unless they brought up their customer satisfaction ratings. Apparently, they thought Mazda was joking until Mazda yanked the franchise. Now, Mazda is on a major revamp of their dealerships.

    Hmmm... I still know quite a few people who refuse to buy a car with power windows. Something about driving into a lake and being trapped underwater... Mazda does still offer the basic DX model of the Protege with no power door locks and no power windows. They are hard to find, although I do see dealerships advertising them for less than $10k from time to time.
  • mpgmanmpgman Member Posts: 723
    Ditto for the Accord DX and DX/VP, Saturn base models, Golf and Jetta GL, and Civic DX and HX, and maybe a few others. Personally, I'd could live without them too...if power door locks break you can still open the doors, but if the window breaks...... That said, how often do they break anyway?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I would be one who does not like power windows and hope that they do not become standard with all cars.

    Part of my dislike may be due to the fact that I have to drive over a river almost every day. I worry somewhat about getting out of my car if I crashed into the river. If I had power windows, it would make it that much harder. Of course, if I crashed into the river, the impact would probably kill me as the river is probably a hundred feet down from the bridge.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    CU and CR are not too separate references. CU stands for Consumer Union and it is the organization behind CR (Consumer Reports). Consumer Digest, on the other hand, is a separate organization.

    You are correct that car reviews in CR and CD are not the most passionate pieces.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    As they can be overwhelmed by one gimmick and not pay attention to every feature available.
    Specifically: Instead of adjusting the cooling vents on the Impala sedan, they complain about the airconditioning makes their hands too cold. They rate the rather small, overpriced Jetta above the Impala that has far more room for a family sedan.
    The "Magic Seat" of the Honda Odyssey so overwhelms them they do not notice the lack of padding on the front door arm rests. Neither do the notice the great comfort DC minivans have with separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. They rate the Odyssey the top minivan even though the reliability of the 1999 Odyssey is in the toilet...whereas Sienna has great reliability.
    If the vehicle has HONDA on it, they automatically give it top rating with no regard to price. They quote their calculated "Invoice Price" and MSRP but do NOT seem to know how to purchase most vehicles using discounts, incentives, etc for the real price comparison.
    They state that it is difficult to find an ECHO with antilock brakes. USAA stopped giving discounts on automobile insurance due to the questionable worth of ABS (BTW we have had ABS on our vehicles since 1991 and we like ABS).
  • mpgmanmpgman Member Posts: 723
    If you can find an Echo with antilock brakes (and side air bags for that matter) please let us know. I know a few people interested in the Echo who are shying away from it precisely because ABS and side air bags, while technically listed as an available option, cannot be found on any car despite multi-state searches.

    CU rates reliability of cars based on what owner surveys tell them. All subscribers get an annual survey covering hundreds of products. I know you are a big Toyota fan. I believe they rate Camry over Accord. Civic is probably rated higher than Corolla because the Civic is new and the Corolla is dated. When the 03 Corolla is released, we will see.

    Not sure about the reference to USAA. They insure a relatively low risk group of people and as such, may not have sufficient data to back the ABS issue. One of the reasons I just bought an Elantra GT hatch was that I could get ABS, traction control, 4 wheel discs, fog lights, and side air bags in a 4 cylinder for $16k. Safety shouldn't be relegated to the EX models....hope Honda is listening!
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    The entire insurance industry is looking into the abolishment of ABS discounts. ABS is an active safety feature, not a passive one. An active safety feature is one that helps you avoid a collision, where a passive safety feature helps you once in a collision (such as air bags). ABS allows you to steer the vehicle under panic braking situations. Hopefully, it can help you steer around an object and avoid a collision. However, the vast majority of drivers do not steer in a panic stop. ABS INCREASES your stopping distance, and since most people don't steer in a panic stop, ABS can actually increase your chances of being involved in a collision.

    I, for one, do not like ABS, traction control, stability control, or any other device that can override the driver's inputs. Traction control, although helpful in poor traction situations, can be a major disadvantage in a panic situation. Let's say you are making a right turn from a small side street onto a major street. There are vehicles parked along the major street and you cannot see oncoming traffic very well. You think it is clear and pull out onto the major street only to see a vehicle coming at you at 45mph. You floor the throttle to get out of the way, but the traction control kicks in and reduces engine power and applies the brakes to the drive wheels to stop wheel spin... hmmm, not a favorable situation.

    In my opinion, no device should ever be allowed to override the driver of a vehicle. The art of good driving has been lost to techno gadgetry that attempts to do it for you. What happens if the system fails? Remember 4-Wheel Steering from the late 80's? Great system until it failed and locked the rear wheels in a way that you could no longer drive straight. Now that computers are being allowed to control the throttle (drive-by-wire common in many high-end cars now, traction control, stability control) and brakes (ABS, traction control, stability control), what happens should these systems fail or malfunction? Should the vehicle's electronics have control over the vehicle? Should the driver have control over the vehicle? I think it should be the latter.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Unfortunately, ABS and side air bags on the Echo are truly a factory installed option. As in, you have to order a car from the factory to get those options. Except for the cars given to car magazines, I have not heard of anybody having ABS or side impact air bags.

    I have not missed not having ABS on my Echo and I have done a simulated panic stop from about 45 to 0 and felt the car handled well. It was on a city street with the speed limit of 45mph and I was the only car on the road.

    I don't know if I miss side air bags as I have not been in any accidents yet. Knock on wood.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    ...to see that my brother's 2000 Hyundai Sonata has side impact air bags, (contained in the seats). I thought this was something found only on more expensive luxury cars. Hyundai offers value AND safety.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Yes, side air bags are standard on the Sonata, the Elantra, and the XG300. However, side air bags are not even an option on the Accent, Santa Fe or Tiburon.

    ABS is the same way. Standard on one model and not even offered as an option on others.
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    u don't even need abs when it comes to hyundai, they stop with the competition without it when the competition is equiped with it.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    That a vehicle equipped with ABS will have a LONGER stopping distance than the same vehicle without ABS.

    Side airbags are quite common nowadays. Just thinking of the Mazda line-up, the Millenia, 626, Protege, Protege5, Tribute, and MPV either come with or offer side airbags, all seat mounted. Only the B-Series truck and Miata do not offer them. I suspect every manufacturer will offer or provide side airbags or side curtain airbags on all of their vehicle within in the next 5 years.
  • dweezildweezil Member Posts: 271
    With all due respect, you are arguing semantics.Their least expensive "pick" was 18,000 dollars. What they say and what they'd choose for THEMSELVES are two different things, it appears.
    Their editorial stance has been and continues to be getting the best value and avoiding rip offs.18,000 for a Civic at the "low end" is mind boggling.I don't call that a good value.For that kind of money I'd be looking at used Maximas,Infiniti J30s and dozens of other choices.That completely eliminates people in the Elantra, Protege, Focus, Echo, Cavalier and Sentra market.Just doesn't seem consistent with their dry and soulless evaluations of cars.
    And I know what you mean about power windows. If you plan on keeping a car for a LONG time, they only mean potential trouble. I don't even like the application of fixed rear windows on 2 doors.At least let a customer CHOOSE, without having to be forced into having them.They're just a gimmick in my opinion, fun to play with for a minute ot two, a pain in actual living with them.
    Logic1;thanks for the update. Can't imagine the current one being salable in the US. We'll see, I hope it's priced competitively.The one available now looks like rock bottom.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    ...low end cars even offer crank-operated windows anymore. Even my girlfriend's old 1991 Tracer had power windows. I remember a time when power windows were standard only on the most expensive cars.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Yes, but were the power windows standard on the Tracer or were they an option?

    There is a difference between a low end car having something as standard and having something available as an option.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Stand, you have made the claim that ABS causes stopping distance to increase. Would you please provide some proof on that? By proof I mean the writing of some authoritative source and not some "real world" experience you claim to have witnessed.

    It will take me a while as I have so many magazines, but I will work on providing an authoritative source that says ABS does not increase stopping distance.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    I have not been able to come up with definitive proof that ABS increases stopping distances. However, I have not been able to come up with definitive proof that ABS decreases stopping distances either. Those are for dry pavement. In different situations, there are major differences... On wet or slippery pavement, ABS does decrease your stopping distance. However, off-pavement and in "loose" situations, ABS may totally prevent your vehicle from stopping at all. This is from the NHTSA's ABS Q&A: "Q: Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without? A: ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly."

    Off-roaders and track racers call ABS a "death machine" since the inability to lock the wheels can cause seriously deadly situations (if you are on a downhill with loose gravel or rock, locking the wheels is the ONLY way to stop...). In testing, however, the NHTSA and IIHS have shown that ABS provides outstanding benefits. However, in their studies of real-world collisions, they have found vehicles with ABS to be involved in as many, if not more, collisions than vehicles not equipped with ABS.


    One study actually found that the percentage of fatal injuries were actually higher in vehicles equipped with ABS. They are puzzled as to the results. Some believe that ABS gives a false sense of security to drivers and they take greater risks, particularly in a major decrease of their following distances. Others believe that most drivers back-off the brake pedal once they feel the pulsating and hear the hissing and clicking of the ABS system. Some drivers may be pumping the brakes or not pressing them hard enough. And yet some drivers may be yanking the steering wheel in another direction and getting involved in a far great collision than the one they were avoiding.


    Personally, I don't care whether or not my vehicle is equipped with ABS. I have found ABS systems to be quite troublesome and I always feel they activate far too early or while going into a hard turn (ABS activation in hard cornering situations can be very deadly! Hence, ABS is not allowed on most racing circuits!). I believe we should focus more on training people to drive more effectively. Drivers must be trained on how to control the vehicle, rather than the vehicle controlling the driver...


    Insurance Institute for Highway Safety ABS links:

    http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/antilock.htm

    AAA article on ABS:
    http://www.aaacarolinas.com/Go/magazine/00NovDec_Steering_Clearof_Danger.htm

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    So your proof is anedoctal and relegated to off roading and racing. Not exactly two places that most Americans (or most drivers) find themselves.

    I am still looking for an online source that says ABS reduces stopping distances. I know I can find an offline source, but trying to find a online link to go along with it.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    No, my proof is not anedoctal. If you read my previous post, I said "I have not been able to come up with definitive proof that ABS increases stopping distances." I then go on to recite the various situations in which ABS can decrease stopping distances and in which ABS can increase or totally negate stopping distances. Let me recap:

    Situations where ABS REDUCE stopping distance:
    1) Wet roads (devoid of loose material*)
    2) Light snow

    Situations where ABS INCREASE stopping distances:
    1) Road covered with loose material*
    2) Heavy snow

    Situations where ABS MAY OR MAY NOT affect stopping distance:
    1) Dry roads (devoid of loose material*)
    2) Icy roads

    *Loose material can be anything from gravel to bark to hail.

    I think it is clear from the NHTSA ABS Q&A:

    "Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?"

    "ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly."
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    to me it seems to be an option that engineers come up with to make owners feel more secure with purchasing that make and model. Is it really meeded? Questionable especially if you can't stop any quicker. Seems to me folks need to stop tailgating so much and just drive smarter. ABS will probably never be on a car I own and will never be something to dicker over at buying time.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 368
    is that the majority of cars still do not have it -- and unless you slam the pedal to the floor and leave it there, ABS will not work properly.

    On the other hand, if you're used to driving a car with ABS and drive another car without it, you may very well rely on habit in an emergency situation, slamming on the brakes and going into an uncontrolled skid.

    Beyond that, the system is still expensive. I've been in a lot of dicey situations in the 38 years I've been driving, and a decent handling car with good brakes still gets my vote.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    I am still bewildered by the government's mandate that all trucks and SUV's be equipped, at a minimum, with rear-wheel ABS. They only benefit the truck when the bed is loaded with a significant amount of weight. Under normal driving circumstances, rear-wheel ABS may cause the vehicle to lose control. I had a 1996 Ford Ranger with rear-wheel ABS. In every panic stop, the truck would fishtail and occasionally slide out to one direction.

    The problem is that the front wheels still lock-up while the rear wheels don't. This causes more drag on the front-end of the vehicle and the "loose" rear-end will continue to move about. Vehicles should either be equipped with 4-wheel ABS or no ABS at all. Fitting only half the vehicle with ABS is ludicrous and stupid and is a sign of major over-regulation by a government that doesn't know what it is governing...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Since this is no longer the "Low End Cars Forum" but the "ABS Forum", I'll throw in my two cents on the value of ABS. I've owned two cars with ABS, and many without. The two ABS cars were a '95 Mystique, with the ABS + traction control package, and my '99 Grand Caravan (with standard ABS). In the two years I leased the Mystique, the ABS and traction control were helpful maybe a half-dozen times, helping me stop or start in icy conditions. But I believe that I changed my driving habits because I knew my car had ABS, e.g. I used less caution when braking on slippery roads because I thought the ABS would save me. Fortunately, it did a couple of times. But if I had used my normal winter driving habits, which I have learned while driving in over 20 Minnesota winters, I would have done just as well. Now my Caravan is another story. Before I got the Grand Caravan I had a '91 Caravan (short wheelbase). That thing fishtailed just by looking at a patch of snow or ice. Not even my best winter driving skills could prevent the rear end from swinging out. I resolved that the next van I got would have ABS, and fortunately Chrysler later made ABS a standard feature on all but its base model minivans. My '99 Grand Caravan stops straight and true in all conditions, thanks in part to the ABS. I would never buy another minivan without it. On a small car with good brakes, however, like my '01 Elantra, I don't miss ABS. But it might help less experienced drivers who need to drive in slick conditions.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 368
    can be a mistake, I do feel that skid control is a good thing -- and that's what you needed in your Caravan. Skid control is seamless and transparent, requiring no input from the driver, so it is inherently safe -- unlilke ABS, which requires a different braking technique (the opposite, in fact) than standard.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Jstand, Perhaps you did not intend to mean it this way, but your original post implied that ABS does not help shorten stopping distances in any circumstances. Go back and reread your post as a third party would and you will see what I mean.

    Your later posts and your insurance institute link shows that ABS does shorten stopping distances in some cases.

    Personally, I would like ABS and side air bags to be offered as an easily obtainable option on all cars even the low end cars.

    My mother has a Yukon with ABS and not only did it seem to shorten the stopping distance, being able to steer was a big plus.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    :-)

    I find myself agreeing with backy that this discussion has turned into that. Since there is obviously a lot to say about this, how about if one of you hop over to the General Sedans folder and fire up a discussion there on the subject?

    That way we can let this conversation get back to its original focus.

    I'll be happy to post a link here if someone does create it.

    Thanks.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, gee Larry.

    What struck me was that ABS would make a great stand-alone discussion. I didn't say that the issues are not relevant to "small car sedans" at all, but I do think the conversation is relevant across the spectrum, don't you?

    Of course no one has been uncivil or unkind. Not sure where that comment came from.

    If we don't end up with a separate conversation on this fascinating issue, it's fine with me, it was just a thought, and I intended to be helpful by offering to link it here.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
  • mpgmanmpgman Member Posts: 723
    The August issue of Car and Driver has an excellent insert piece on ABS. I believe it is on page 65. Bottom line: No driver, no matter how expert, can compete with a chip that can control each wheel independently in microseconds. Assuming the chip and the system is in good working order, of course.
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    larry, no offense but that was a really ignorant statement at the end. "no korean car blah blah".
    korean cars are new to the industry so don't go badmouthing them. hyundai is better than standard. did you see the new report done by edmunds??? wat does it say???? exactly! kia will get their too and so will deawoo. honda, toyota, nissan etc. had this road to cross too and i think hyundai is doing it faster than them.

    buy reading your profile i see you own 2 proteges. they are nice cars. their actually turning out to be one of my favorites. but the mica color. wats that. and same trim, sooo cute. too much info buddy.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Please don't take this as a criticism. I am just wondering why you spell the word what as wat. It gets kind of grating and disruptive after a while.

    And why shouldn't we hold new cars to some sort of standard?
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    If we were to choose one low-end car to set as the "standard" for all other low-end cars to meet, which one would it be? Let's throw price out the window and just choose one of the low-end cars. I figure this car should offer the best combination of quality, reliability, performance, functionality, and safety.
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