Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
With all due respect;you will never "save" money by replacing rather than repairing your current vehicle.Depreciation, taxes, licensing, higher insurance costs etc.I'm not flaming, but there is no art to throwing money away. This is part of the myth about cars that dealers LOVE to promote.It's one thing if a car is totally clapped out and unreliable.But if it's only being replaced because it's 3 or 4 years old people are only doing a sales job on themselves.Cars are far more long lasting today and I'll bet there ARE people out there waiting for your "lemons", because you've gotten them nicely broken in for the next owner!! :-)
Now if you do it because you LIKE having a new car every three or four years and all the junk that goes along with that fine. But you aren't saving any money that way and you never will. It's false economy.And yes I remember the days when 2 or 3 Pintos for the "low end " price of one Civic, Elantra or Sentra!!! Yet as a relative price, it's right in line adjusted for inflation.
Please; didn't mean to offend and this isn't a flame, but I think I've expressed it before, I'm CHEAP so saving money is a lifestyle choice as well as a philosophy.And after a few years even I can get sick of the same vehicle and I've used the same arguments to convince myself to get a new one.[though I've had my 63 Valiant for 20 years. It's not a car at this point... it's FAMILY!]
It's sort of like that line in "Christine" That the old geezer who owns the Plymouth says [that's always edited out on TV]:"There's nothin' better than the smell of a new car...'ceptin' maybe....*****!"
If we go by a dollar figure, it needs to be the MSRP of a base vehicle, but I also think you need to look at where a vehicle is in terms of a manufacturers line up.
The Hyundai Sonata has a base price of $14,999 so if you went solely by price, this would mean the Sonata was a low end car, but until the XG300 came along, this was Hyundai's top offering thus it is not a low end car on that basis.
The same thing could be said of the Toyota Corolla. It has a base model with an MSRP of below $15,000, but I don't think that too many people consider it a low end car.
However, and I am not trying to put down your car, but I think that the Sephia is a low end car although it is not Kia's entry level offering. I guess I feel that way because the base MSRP is so far below $15,000.
Understand that I don't think that a car being low end automatically makes it bad. In fact, I think there are some very nice low end cars. I happen to be driving one. : )
CJA
That extra 1000.00 dollars people keep throwing around is even more important when shopping for low end transportation than it is when buying new.
A buyer wants the newest car with the lowest mileage with the smallest price.NOT where you'll find many Corollas or Civics making the Korean cars look even better. What's inexpensive new will be inexpensive on the used car lots.This is no crime. Would LOVE to get an XG300 for 50% off in two or three years.Jack pot for the used car buyer, great bargain new.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Suzuki makes really durable small engines, though. And every Suzuki vehicle I've ever been in looked like it was bolted togtether very tightly.
Interesting note re:Mazda. I've seen two dealers in recent times disappear. The latest one switched over to HYUNDAI.Finally saw the new Protege and with all due respect it's pretty unremarkable in the looks department. I'm thinking however, that with the 5 door and MP3, they'll finally become more visible. The reviews for it have been good, but as with the Elantra power windows are standard even on the least expensive model!?!!
This goes back to what I was saying about there being no attempt to hold the line on costs. And for MY purposes it only means the potential for something expensive to go wrong down the road. Electrical problems are STILL the major problem for ALL makes and they don't improve with age.
Given that Consumer Reports "Best Buys" for 2001 according to their current Auto Buyers Guide least expensive car lists at 18,000 [Honda Civic]and goes all the way up from THERE, I wonder if it isn't simply a social phenomenon, a sign of the times,that will open the entry level market to the Koreans, perhaps the Malaysians [Proton] or other makes from places you'd never THINK would attemptselling in the American market.
As to the Astre being the replacement for the Cavalier: I hope NOT.With the exception of the 4door, they look like the Daewoo built Pontiac LeMans of the late 80s. VERY dated, no matter HOW good the mechanicals are and very unappealing. Even keeping the current body and replacing with the Opel mechanicals would be a better idea.
For a bunch that see the automobile as just an appliance, they wouldn't put THEMSELVES in an inexpensive vehicle.It's okay for you and me, though.If I'm going to spend 20,000 for a car,it's NOT going to be a Honda Civic EX.I find the elitism pretty nasty, much the same way as in the political realm.WE can have a private retirement plan paid for by the public; but Social Security is just fine for the great unwashed out in "flyover country".
I disagree that Consumer Union and Consumer Reports wants everyone to think that they are "austere and cost conscious," so I don't fault them for picking the Honda Civic and not some Korean make. I think this austere notion is something that has gotten repeated so much by others that it has become a "fact" with no basis in reality.
And check out the criteria for choosing the cars they did. The cars had to have excelled at CU's formal testing and had an average [or better] record of reliability.
I challenge you to find any Korean model in that issue that meets both criteria. I have this guide and I don't see any that do.
Are the testers that review the new cars the same folks who test microwave ovens, blue jeans and DVD players? That could explain the dullness of the reviews.
Just my two cents.
CJA
Hmmm... I still know quite a few people who refuse to buy a car with power windows. Something about driving into a lake and being trapped underwater... Mazda does still offer the basic DX model of the Protege with no power door locks and no power windows. They are hard to find, although I do see dealerships advertising them for less than $10k from time to time.
Part of my dislike may be due to the fact that I have to drive over a river almost every day. I worry somewhat about getting out of my car if I crashed into the river. If I had power windows, it would make it that much harder. Of course, if I crashed into the river, the impact would probably kill me as the river is probably a hundred feet down from the bridge.
You are correct that car reviews in CR and CD are not the most passionate pieces.
Specifically: Instead of adjusting the cooling vents on the Impala sedan, they complain about the airconditioning makes their hands too cold. They rate the rather small, overpriced Jetta above the Impala that has far more room for a family sedan.
The "Magic Seat" of the Honda Odyssey so overwhelms them they do not notice the lack of padding on the front door arm rests. Neither do the notice the great comfort DC minivans have with separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. They rate the Odyssey the top minivan even though the reliability of the 1999 Odyssey is in the toilet...whereas Sienna has great reliability.
If the vehicle has HONDA on it, they automatically give it top rating with no regard to price. They quote their calculated "Invoice Price" and MSRP but do NOT seem to know how to purchase most vehicles using discounts, incentives, etc for the real price comparison.
They state that it is difficult to find an ECHO with antilock brakes. USAA stopped giving discounts on automobile insurance due to the questionable worth of ABS (BTW we have had ABS on our vehicles since 1991 and we like ABS).
CU rates reliability of cars based on what owner surveys tell them. All subscribers get an annual survey covering hundreds of products. I know you are a big Toyota fan. I believe they rate Camry over Accord. Civic is probably rated higher than Corolla because the Civic is new and the Corolla is dated. When the 03 Corolla is released, we will see.
Not sure about the reference to USAA. They insure a relatively low risk group of people and as such, may not have sufficient data to back the ABS issue. One of the reasons I just bought an Elantra GT hatch was that I could get ABS, traction control, 4 wheel discs, fog lights, and side air bags in a 4 cylinder for $16k. Safety shouldn't be relegated to the EX models....hope Honda is listening!
I, for one, do not like ABS, traction control, stability control, or any other device that can override the driver's inputs. Traction control, although helpful in poor traction situations, can be a major disadvantage in a panic situation. Let's say you are making a right turn from a small side street onto a major street. There are vehicles parked along the major street and you cannot see oncoming traffic very well. You think it is clear and pull out onto the major street only to see a vehicle coming at you at 45mph. You floor the throttle to get out of the way, but the traction control kicks in and reduces engine power and applies the brakes to the drive wheels to stop wheel spin... hmmm, not a favorable situation.
In my opinion, no device should ever be allowed to override the driver of a vehicle. The art of good driving has been lost to techno gadgetry that attempts to do it for you. What happens if the system fails? Remember 4-Wheel Steering from the late 80's? Great system until it failed and locked the rear wheels in a way that you could no longer drive straight. Now that computers are being allowed to control the throttle (drive-by-wire common in many high-end cars now, traction control, stability control) and brakes (ABS, traction control, stability control), what happens should these systems fail or malfunction? Should the vehicle's electronics have control over the vehicle? Should the driver have control over the vehicle? I think it should be the latter.
I have not missed not having ABS on my Echo and I have done a simulated panic stop from about 45 to 0 and felt the car handled well. It was on a city street with the speed limit of 45mph and I was the only car on the road.
I don't know if I miss side air bags as I have not been in any accidents yet. Knock on wood.
ABS is the same way. Standard on one model and not even offered as an option on others.
Side airbags are quite common nowadays. Just thinking of the Mazda line-up, the Millenia, 626, Protege, Protege5, Tribute, and MPV either come with or offer side airbags, all seat mounted. Only the B-Series truck and Miata do not offer them. I suspect every manufacturer will offer or provide side airbags or side curtain airbags on all of their vehicle within in the next 5 years.
Their editorial stance has been and continues to be getting the best value and avoiding rip offs.18,000 for a Civic at the "low end" is mind boggling.I don't call that a good value.For that kind of money I'd be looking at used Maximas,Infiniti J30s and dozens of other choices.That completely eliminates people in the Elantra, Protege, Focus, Echo, Cavalier and Sentra market.Just doesn't seem consistent with their dry and soulless evaluations of cars.
And I know what you mean about power windows. If you plan on keeping a car for a LONG time, they only mean potential trouble. I don't even like the application of fixed rear windows on 2 doors.At least let a customer CHOOSE, without having to be forced into having them.They're just a gimmick in my opinion, fun to play with for a minute ot two, a pain in actual living with them.
Logic1;thanks for the update. Can't imagine the current one being salable in the US. We'll see, I hope it's priced competitively.The one available now looks like rock bottom.
There is a difference between a low end car having something as standard and having something available as an option.
It will take me a while as I have so many magazines, but I will work on providing an authoritative source that says ABS does not increase stopping distance.
Off-roaders and track racers call ABS a "death machine" since the inability to lock the wheels can cause seriously deadly situations (if you are on a downhill with loose gravel or rock, locking the wheels is the ONLY way to stop...). In testing, however, the NHTSA and IIHS have shown that ABS provides outstanding benefits. However, in their studies of real-world collisions, they have found vehicles with ABS to be involved in as many, if not more, collisions than vehicles not equipped with ABS.
One study actually found that the percentage of fatal injuries were actually higher in vehicles equipped with ABS. They are puzzled as to the results. Some believe that ABS gives a false sense of security to drivers and they take greater risks, particularly in a major decrease of their following distances. Others believe that most drivers back-off the brake pedal once they feel the pulsating and hear the hissing and clicking of the ABS system. Some drivers may be pumping the brakes or not pressing them hard enough. And yet some drivers may be yanking the steering wheel in another direction and getting involved in a far great collision than the one they were avoiding.
Personally, I don't care whether or not my vehicle is equipped with ABS. I have found ABS systems to be quite troublesome and I always feel they activate far too early or while going into a hard turn (ABS activation in hard cornering situations can be very deadly! Hence, ABS is not allowed on most racing circuits!). I believe we should focus more on training people to drive more effectively. Drivers must be trained on how to control the vehicle, rather than the vehicle controlling the driver...
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety ABS links:
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/antilock.htm
AAA article on ABS:
http://www.aaacarolinas.com/Go/magazine/00NovDec_Steering_Clearof_Danger.htm
I am still looking for an online source that says ABS reduces stopping distances. I know I can find an offline source, but trying to find a online link to go along with it.
Situations where ABS REDUCE stopping distance:
1) Wet roads (devoid of loose material*)
2) Light snow
Situations where ABS INCREASE stopping distances:
1) Road covered with loose material*
2) Heavy snow
Situations where ABS MAY OR MAY NOT affect stopping distance:
1) Dry roads (devoid of loose material*)
2) Icy roads
*Loose material can be anything from gravel to bark to hail.
I think it is clear from the NHTSA ABS Q&A:
"Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?"
"ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
On the other hand, if you're used to driving a car with ABS and drive another car without it, you may very well rely on habit in an emergency situation, slamming on the brakes and going into an uncontrolled skid.
Beyond that, the system is still expensive. I've been in a lot of dicey situations in the 38 years I've been driving, and a decent handling car with good brakes still gets my vote.
The problem is that the front wheels still lock-up while the rear wheels don't. This causes more drag on the front-end of the vehicle and the "loose" rear-end will continue to move about. Vehicles should either be equipped with 4-wheel ABS or no ABS at all. Fitting only half the vehicle with ABS is ludicrous and stupid and is a sign of major over-regulation by a government that doesn't know what it is governing...
Your later posts and your insurance institute link shows that ABS does shorten stopping distances in some cases.
Personally, I would like ABS and side air bags to be offered as an easily obtainable option on all cars even the low end cars.
My mother has a Yukon with ABS and not only did it seem to shorten the stopping distance, being able to steer was a big plus.
I find myself agreeing with backy that this discussion has turned into that. Since there is obviously a lot to say about this, how about if one of you hop over to the General Sedans folder and fire up a discussion there on the subject?
That way we can let this conversation get back to its original focus.
I'll be happy to post a link here if someone does create it.
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
What struck me was that ABS would make a great stand-alone discussion. I didn't say that the issues are not relevant to "small car sedans" at all, but I do think the conversation is relevant across the spectrum, don't you?
Of course no one has been uncivil or unkind. Not sure where that comment came from.
If we don't end up with a separate conversation on this fascinating issue, it's fine with me, it was just a thought, and I intended to be helpful by offering to link it here.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
korean cars are new to the industry so don't go badmouthing them. hyundai is better than standard. did you see the new report done by edmunds??? wat does it say???? exactly! kia will get their too and so will deawoo. honda, toyota, nissan etc. had this road to cross too and i think hyundai is doing it faster than them.
buy reading your profile i see you own 2 proteges. they are nice cars. their actually turning out to be one of my favorites. but the mica color. wats that. and same trim, sooo cute. too much info buddy.
And why shouldn't we hold new cars to some sort of standard?