Low End Sedans (under $16k)



  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    Mr. major, you can rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on about your love for Toyota's and you know what it teaches me? You're either unemployed or underemployed or for some reason you've got a lot of free time. I don't hate Honda or Nissan or Toyota I just feel that they're overpriced, boring automobiles. Kia's and Hyundai's are good looking, well-designed cars with great warranty's and low prices. Again, I drive one and it's a very painless experience. No need to try a Japanese car. I'm constantly having to see them on the clogged up roads. Honda Sticker boys with whiny-butted annoying sounding engines that really don't inspire confidence by their sound. Sound like angry hornets. Boring looks. New Civic is looking worse than old. The only Toyota worth looking at is the new Celica. It's overpriced and, yes, it's stuck with the Toyota label. High prices, bland looks=winning formula for Americans lacking in luster. Good for profit margin though. Keep throwing the mindless information from American car magazines who've made their minds up BEFORE driving a Hyundai or Kia. You're entertaining, Mr.major.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    I recall an extremely recent "American car magazine" that just rated the Hyundai XG300 over the Honda Accord and Dodge Stratus. It was a value comparison, with most editors picking the Accord as the car they would actually own, but the Hyundai gave the most bang-for-the-buck in creature comforts, but placed dead last in acceleration, handling, and braking.

    And it's funny how I've read some very good reviews of the Hyundai Tiburon, with the editors calling it entertaining and a good value. But, since this is all "mindless information", I guess we should just discard all of this praise for Hyundai.

    But, once compared to other vehicles in it's class, the Koreans have their work cut out for them. Car and Driver did an excellent comparison of 13 small sedans. These "American car magazines" have a distinct habit of hating "American" cars, but they still scored higher than the Koreans...

    Here's sections of the article:

    "Thirteenth Place: Kia Sephia LS"

    "Kia is a relatively new player in the U.S. market, although not quite the tenderfoot it might seem; Ford Festivas and Aspires of the '80s and '90s came from Korea's Kia. But the Ford deal has ended, and now Kia is following the path of so many hopeful importers who came to this country with no reputation and little experience, intent on grabbing a piece of our 17-million annual car market."

    "The Sephia's last-place rating in this test, by a clear margin, suggests that Kia still has plenty of upgrading to do. That's if you're gauging this car as we do, holding it up to the levels of sophistication achieved by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mazda. The Sephia makes enough thrumming noises and quivering branggs as it shuttles down the highway, makes enough big deals out of small bumps, and loses enough parts as it passes (the rubber windshield molding blew off in the top-speed test) to constantly remind us that it's still a work in progress."

    "On the other hand, for the rock-bottom price of $13,324 as tested, lowest of the group, you get a brand-new car with a list of features that's about average for this group, including power locks, windows, and mirrors; cruise control; a CD player; and more. On the inside, Kia has made more effort toward color coordination and pleasing materials than many of the others here, including Saturn, the spendiest car of the bunch.
    The Sephia's performance is mostly on the low side of average, although top-gear acceleration is midpack. Top speed, at 119 mph, tied the gutsy Hyundai while outrunning all the others."

    "In the rear, footroom is generous under the front buckets, but the seat itself leans back like a La-Z-Boy, drawing complaints from all. Space back there is about average for the group, comfort is below average."

    "Value shoppers will be reassured by the three-year/36,000-mile vehicle warranty and five-year/60,000-mile powertrain warranty."

    "Highs: Best price in town, smart color coordination inside, did we mention "low price"?
    Lows: Enough vibrations to start your own garage band, weak braking, yesterday's styling.
    The Verdict: In price and behavior, sorta like a brand-new used car."

    First place went to (surprise!) a Japanese car.

    "First Place: Mazda Protege ES"

    "This Mazda tops the charts for driving fun. Its chassis muscles are athletic, its engine is sweet and strong, its controls are precise and direct, and the look is classy inside and out. This is a car that does everything well. And it has spirit. BMW verve for less than half the price. What's not to like?"

    "The quality of this car starts with body structure, as solid as the vault at Wells Fargo. No rattles and buzzes. No quivers and thrums. And there's room for very tall drivers. The seat knows exactly how the orthopedist told you to sit. It's easy to find a good driving position in this car. There's a wonderful leanness all about you, with imaginative shapes to please the eye, but no fat, no froufrou. Just pure car flavor delivered without distraction."

    "This is a disciplined machine with quick, sure suspension responses starting right down where the low-profile 195/55VR-15 Bridgestones meet the pavement. So you can hurry without worry. Path control is excellent, whether you're bending through the twisties or cruising the interstate. Acceleration numbers trail the Dodge Neon's by a nose, until the Protege, with its songful 1840cc, pulls ahead to finish the quarter in 16.8 seconds at 82 mph. A glimpse of the handling prowess appears in the results of the emergency-lane-change test, where the Mazda outruns all but the big-tired Hyundai, which squeaks through 0.1 mph faster."

    "Although most of the fun happens in the driver's seat, this four-door also takes exceptionally good care of its passengers. For both two and three occupants in the rear seat, the Mazda ranked just behind the Focus. Both of these sedans have high, firm rear benches with good thigh support and excellent footroom under the front buckets."

    "There aren't many sedans at any price that can match the dynamic balance of this Mazda, that possess the quick, confident moves and the carved-from-billet integrity of structure. At a sticker of $15,570, this Protege ES seems an easy choice."

    "Highs: Classy looks inside and out, quality feel, sports-sedan power and handling.
    Lows: Compared with the others, no complaints.
    The Verdict: A small car that makes us feel rich."

    You can read the full article at http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2000/Jun/200006_comparisontest_littl.xml?&page=1
  • bluffhousebluffhouse Member Posts: 33
    Owns a '96 Camry 4. Better read up on the bad seals. They smoke like old faithful when they start. Not good for a company of such great praise. Even the late eighties Toyotas had some real problems. Many of which I laugh about because the same Toyota BS existed back then as now. I laugh everytime I see an old Toyota pass with one dim headlight, a problem I outgrew.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 368
    but you guys said it all...."Wishful thinkin don't make it so."


    (Speakin of time....iluvmysephia seems to have a lot of time on his hands too. Maybe that's why he can only afford a -- what is it? -- oh yeah -- a Kia??) =O)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    If Toyota or even masterful Mazda are the benchmark car producers for the rest of the world to bow down to we're in real trouble. When is Mazda going to actually STYLE A SUBCOMPACT OR COMPACT CAR? They're very bland looking. And notice that price $15,000 and plenty of change. Oh, they deserve it right? They've been at this a long time and those chubby older guys in the offices are getting closer to retirement, so let's just jack it to those silly Americans! Well, I don't bite that easily. Boring, mundane looking Japanese vehicles. Toyota's Celica has promise, but, yes, they've overpriced it. It doesn't hold the same grace as Sephia anyway. Toyota's WiLL concept car looked kinda cool. Watch what happens now. If it goes to production they'll "have" to charge $21,000 before options "because it's a Thai-o-ta" and "we've been at this a long time!" We're getting chubby and complacent on you dumb Americans and you keep giving us your cash! We love you Americans! I'm not biting! It's Kia or Hyundai from here on out baby!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    i agree with sephia guy. celicas are WAY too overpriced. the gt gets outrunned by the tiburon and elantra (i've done it with ease) and costs less. so wat are you paying that extra money for in a "sports car"? hyundai and kia sell their cars not for poor people or people without lots of money, they sell it to smart people who know the value of a car and who wont spend an extra 5-10K on the badge of the car. my friend owns a civic ex, those things are pieces of crap and he admits it. slow and expensive. same with celica gt (i'm not talking about the celica gts because WOW) he says he paid too much for the gt. sephia is a great car right now and will be 10x better when the sehpia II comes out and that goes for all hyundais and kias they redesign like crazy and always improve on power and goodies. i'm not saying that the other cars like honda and toyotas are junk, i just think they aren't worth it since they cost too much for wat they give you.
    anybody who owns a hyundai/kia knows the secret the non-owners don't know. we get ALOT more than we pay for. with the other makers you get what you pay for sometimes.
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    oh yea i don't care what people say about the echo, they aren't pretty but sure are quick for the hp/torque you got in that car. i'm gonna have to say VERY nicely done.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Did the Celicas that you say you have outraced know you were racing them? That might be another explanation. Or it could be that the person driving the Celica did not know what they were doing.

    Not saying you have not outraced a Celica in an Elantra, but there may be another explanation besides the car.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Two of the main reasons that I bought a Toyota over a Hyundai, Kia, or Daewoo were little things called initial quality and long term reliability.

    I did look at the Korean makes and models, but I liked what I saw in the Toyota better.

    The initial quality is not as good in a Korean make as it is in the Toyota, but don't take my word for it. Look at the J.D. Powers initial quality survey. This is a survey of ACTUAL OWNERS.

    Daewoo does not have a long enough track record in this country to really talk about whether or not they are reliable in the long haul, but that lack of a track record counted against them.

    Kia has a somewhat longer track record and it did not inspire confidence in me. I especially did not like all the brake problems I saw reported in the 1999 Kia Sephias.

    Hyundai has the longest track record here and it scared me the most. I remember all the early models. I also talked to actual owners of more recent Hyundai models and while Hyundai has improved from those early days, they have not improved enough to suit me.

    Hope that you continue to enjoy your vehicle.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    You have made claims about cars in the past and I have asked for proof and another person asked for proof before me. Strangely you shut up whenever this happens.

    Are you going to provide documentation or is it all a bluff?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    You are not doing your cause any good with all your insults and wisecracks. You do know that, don't you? An occasional wisecrack is okay, but not constantly.

    I find it wildly amusing that you have not responded to the fact that J.D. Powers and AutoPacific surveyed ACTUAL OWNERS. Surely an actual owner of a Daewoo, Hyundai, or Kia wouldn't be "brain washed" by the "vast Toyota conspiracy" after the purchase of their vehicles.

    If the Koreans are such leaders in styling; why do parts of the Hyundai XG300 look like a Jaguar; why does the Kia Sedona look like a cross between a Dodge Caravan and a Ford Windstar with a hood from a Mercedes; and why does the next generation Tiburon look like one of its parents was a Mitsubishi Eclipse?

    Do you think you can answer those questions; deal with the J.D. Powers and AutoPacific surveys being from actual car owners; and, answer me one final question without an insult or wisecrack?

    The final question is if you are honest enough with yourself to tell us why Hyundai and Kia went to the 10 year/100,000 mile power train warranty?
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    i said i've outraced celica GT not GT-S. the GT's aren't that great, jus a nice body and a GREAT enterior but for the price of that car their should be maybe a little more torque or something. and yes they know i was racing them. somehow everybody here in LI wants to beat on a hyundai but don't realize these aren't the excels back in the day and have an amazing engine for the price and alot of options. and with the new tiburon coming out with the v-6 powerplant and the sonata with the 3.0 v-6 plus the xg300 which will get a 3.5 soon enough i think hyundais will be near or above the competition in performance and i think are already above the competitors in the "bang for the buck" factor. and kias are very close to follow the trend ofcoarse. so what i'm saying is i don't hate other cars but am dissapointed in some of the prices that these cars have. and the resale value is funny on these cars. i would never buy a used car for 4K with over 100K on it. i think hyundai will be #1 or near there within 5-7 years.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    What do you mean that you think Hyundai will be #1 or near there in 5 - 7 years?

    In what category?
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    I just checked out the Sephia and I am totally bewildered!!! I personally thought the Protege ES was the bottom of the pack in fuel mileage, but that was offset by the Protege's performance. Wow! The Sephia with it's torqueless little engine and lower weight gets worse fuel mileage. But, I guess that lower price offsets it!

    Hmmm... let's see how the lower price stacks up:

    Base MSRP is lower on Sephia.
    Moonroof is... not available on Sephia.
    Side airbags are... not available on Sephia.
    EBFD is... not available on Sephia.
    Fog lights are... not available on Sephia.
    4-wheel disc brakes are... not available on Sephia.
    CD is... extra cost on Sephia.
    Power mirrors are... extra cost on Sephia.
    Intermittent wipers are... extra cost on Sephia.
    Alloy wheels are... extra cost on Sephia.
    Cruise control is... extra cost on Sephia.


    Poor Safety Rating by IIHS... standard on Sephia

    So, once you add in all of the extra cost options, the Sephia stills comes in lower in cost. Is it a good value? At first glance, sure. But, let's add in some of the items not available on the Sephia that is standard on a Japanese car, such as the Protege. Higher passive and active safety (dollar amount: ?). Higher levels of performance- better acceleration, better handling, better braking (dollar amount: ?). Higher levels of refinement (dollar amount: ?). Higher resale value (dollar amount: ?). It seems to me that the Kia may be a better value on the Maroney, but not a better value overall.
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    I seem to have created monster. Since were offering opinions on the looks of small cars here's mine:

    Toyota Echo-kinda cartoonish but growing on me. looks like it came out of an anime movie

    Kia Sephia-doesnt really stand out in a crowd like that quiet guy from high school. as interesting as a white wall.

    Mazda Protoge-this car i like. not too garishbut sporty looking with the alloys and spoiler.

    Honda civic-the angular body leaves a bit to be desired compared to my 98 civic. last gen civic looked the best IMO of all civics. Cant wait until new civic type r debuts.

    Hyundai Elantra- not a bad looking car. Im not sure of the bobtail trunk though. definately an improvement over the last elantra

    More to follow
    My .02
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    i think some of the hyundai cars like the elantra and/or the sonata will be #1 in their catagory in 5-7 years. and the sephia wasn't always a good car but now its improving and as i stated before the sephia II is going to be great. i think the echo is UGLY, but i really like how they transfered over the power from the engine to the wheels. the car is really zippy. but the rest i don't like. i think civics are overpriced, proteges are overpriced but really really cool. people need to stop looking at the name of the car and start looking at wat that car can do and wat really comes down to it wat it can do for the money you give?
  • supremesupreme Member Posts: 38
    Kia Sephia: Car & Driver calls it the best new used car. OK. I bought Kia Sephia because I could purchase a brand new car at used car prices. Namely April 2000 purchase of White 5spd 4dr sdn
    rear defogger, auto trunk latch, auto gas latch at $8600 incl tax & title. At 27000miles with two major long haul trips completed. On one leg of a past trip we recorded 42mpg with wife driving; recent 3600mi trip documented 38.2mpg leading the pack for half the trip. As a consumer
    I didnt want the trimmings because I didnt want to pay for them. I purchased Sephia because I wanted a new car at used car prices. From my perspective they have delivered value. The future remains to be seen. Perhaps you all get tired of my mantra, but facts are facts. And as for Sephia looks. It blends well with the current generation of aerodynamic duplicates. Personnally from the tail it resembles my old neighbors Baby Benz. From the head it resembles the Escort & Contour. From the side it looks like all the Asian cars. For me, its not what goodies you get to enhance your basic model; its what you keep in your pocket and still get the job done. Supreme
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    Hey, Mr.major-I don't read those car magazines. I learned after reading a couple reviews of the Sephia that they're either smoking some strong stuff during the drive or they just borrow the next dope's magazine and copy it like some of you Japanese car lovers probably did. They're not accurate and really, if you're going to bite it in a bad wreck you're toast if you're in a Lincoln Continental or a Kia Sephia or a Honda Civic, etc. A safety rating means very close to squat to me. JDPowers or AutoPacific? If Kia and Hyundai owners bad-mouth their Kia's and Hyundai's it's probably 'cause they're into abusing their cars no matter what the brand. I've carefully kept my Sephia serviced and it performs like a champ. liljonson seems to have a healthy, unbiased attitude about these handsome South Korean-built cars. Sephia II will be better than Sephia and the way Sephia has sold for Kia so far there'll be a lot of repeat customers. I'll probably be one or I'll hop up to Optima. Probably I'll trade in for a Sephia II. Kia and my dealer have done nothing to convince me to look at any other car maker. The aesthetically pleasing lines of the Sephia make it an easy and carefree decision. Oh, the warranty Mr.major wants me to touch on. Why would the Long-Haul warranty be a negative in any reasonable way? Key word:REASONABLE. Give me a REASONABLE OBJECTION KIA HATERS!!!!! Ther isn't a reasonable objection to it. It's Kia or Hyundai on their way up, up, up to the top with no signs of slowing down. Protege is boxy, bland and mildly short of ugly. Subaru's are UGLY!!!!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    some of the people that make those statements about hyundai/kia never owned one but have nothing better than do then to bring down the name of hyundai/kia. its sad
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,306
    Hyundai has come a long way from the dreadful Excels of 1985. I remember a time when the Hyundai was the next worst car to the late unlamented Yugo. Today, Hyundai has some of the most attractive cars at very reasonable prices. I remember the first time I saw a XG300 and couldn'r believe it was a Hyundai. The car is beautiful! It is infinitely more attractive than that dull Camry which is overpriced and hasn't much changed from 1992. Take a look at the 2002 Sonata prototype! Even the Elantra is a very attractive car. The competing Corolla looks like a rental car. The Honda Civic is nice, but is getting long in the tooth. The Honda Accord has also fallen into a somewhat stolid orthodoxy.

    Maybe Hyundai hasn't matched the first tier Japanese makes for fit and finish, but it blows the second tier makes away. To me, the Mazda 626 is a Japanese Ford Tempo. The Mitsubishi Diamante is a once glorious car that has been emasculated by decontenting. Subarus are interesting but ugly.
    Suzuki and Isuzu aren't even contenders.

    If I can wholeheartedly recommend any low end car it is the Chevrolet Impala. For around $18K, one can get a large, well-appointed, high-performing, well-constructed car. I currnetly drive a Cadillac Deville and I wouldn't be ashamed of a base Impala. My girlfriend bought a 2001 on March 12 and she absolutlely loves her car. Everybody I've seen with a new Impala praises the car to no end. I highly recommend those shopping in the low end of the price spectrum to check out the Impala.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 368
    "When is Mazda going to actually STYLE A SUBCOMPACT OR COMPACT CAR? They're very bland looking." Take a loko at the new MP3. Sae one in bright blue this morning, thought it was a WRX at first, only better looking. Got closer and saw what it was -- it's a tidy piece. Needs a bit more power, but the styling blows away anything else in it price class.

    By the way, if you want to see what a Corolla can and should look like, email me at [email protected] and I'll send you some pix of my car. Think you might like it (even if it is a bit overpriced!).
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    i hate when i see people with hooked up corollas. me and my friends make fun of them at the import scene. but other than that those things don't seem to break! you can floor the crap out of them and they don't fall apart. i get jealous of them sometimes.
    imapala is an awsome car. i like the older model better (who didn't) but this one is great too and it is cheap. i thinks its a pretty cool car. and the WRX is FAST! that car is the perfect car for me. 4 doors and 14 second quarter mile. its a dream for that price. i can't wait till the WRX STI comes out, it will compete with the mitsu evolutions, both which do 0-60 under 5!
  • stebustebu Member Posts: 204
    The low end Japanese cars are mostly generic looking with a few extrodinary models always popping up. Love'em or hate'em it's hard to argue against the goodness of pocket rockets like the Subaru Impulse RS or WRX, the Nissan SE-R, or a Honda Civic SI. And there is always their well earned reputation for being bulletproof.

    The American low end, for some time has been just that... the low end. I like the new Ford Focus. It's looks, feel and handling are a step up from many of the Asian low end cars, any recall's notwithstanding.

    Volkswagon, on the Euro side, makes very attractive and mostly different cars that also cost considerably more. But, they're among the best drivers cars you can get for the money. Poor reliability is the dark cloud that they are having a hard time shaking.

    No doubt the Korean car makers are on the upswing. In my opinion, the Kia and Hyundai lineups seem to be attractive enough but they don't offer anything really new or different and they certainly don't stand out from much of the competition except in price. Again, generic comes to mind. High content for low cost is definitely their primary selling point.

    Behind the wheel, is where I notice the most significant differences. In that respect, the Korean, and American cars (again with the exception of the Focus) still suffer from a kind of terminal tinnyness that I also associate with Suzuki and Isuzu on the Japanese side. The fit and finish and ride of a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Mazda and Volkswagon is just crisper with better feel to the switches, doors, steering, and manual gearboxes.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    What facts? Your post was mainly your opinion. At least that is my opinion. ; )
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    That still does not explain which categories. By that I am asking if you mean #1 in sales, in quality, what?
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I did not say that the warranty was a negative. A warranty by the way that you do not have on your car as you bought yours before the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty.

    The reason I ask is that there is a guy on the AOL auto board who claims that Kia and Hyundai started their "long haul warranty" because they loved their customers. I just wanted to see your take on it.

    I will deal with the rest of your post later.
  • tazerelitazereli Member Posts: 241
    Jusst for the record subaru did not have anything to do with izusu's last attempt at a car, the impusle. that was the Geo Storm's clone. Subaru make the imprezas whether they be a regular 2.5rs or a "blow the doors off most other sub $25K cars", WRX.
  • jstandeferjstandefer Member Posts: 805
    Before you get too carried away on you Mazda bashing trip, just remember that Kia would be no where if it wasn't for Mazda. Mazda has owned 8% of the company since 1983 and combined with Ford's former large stake in Kia, they controlled the company. Ford sold their stake in Kia when Hyundai bought out the company, but Mazda still retains their share and has announced that they have no plans on selling.

    The Kia Sephia and Kia Sportage both use slightly modified Mazda engines. The Sephia uses the Mazda "BP"-series 1.8L DOHC 4-cyl engine along with the first and second generation Protege, Ford Escort, and Mercury Tracer. A relative of this same engine family is still used in the Miata. The Sportage uses the Mazda FE3 2.0L DOHC 4-cyl, which is a amalgamation of the 1984-87 Mazda B2000/MX6 block with the DOHC head from the "B" family of Mazda engines.

    Kia suspension design also borrows heavily from Mazda's suspension design. However, the Kia unibody is not rigid enough to take advantage of the handling that is capable of this suspension, as evidenced in the Protege. Actually, most of Kia's engineering is heavily influenced by Mazda design and engineering.

    Since Kia survived solely on the Sephia and Sportage for many years, Kia-lovers must respect Mazda. Without the Mazda engines and engineering to grow from, Kia would have started from scratch... and probably wouldn't be around today.

    Protege boxy and bland? Oh wait, that's right, you think the Sephia is the best looking car on the road regardless of price-range... I'll just keep out of the styling opinion war... However, from side-profile, IMO, the Sephia looks like a combination of the last generation Corolla and the Ford Contour.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    If anyone wants to read a post from an actual Sephia owner with a viewpoint different than Iluv's viewpoint, check out the Kia Sephia discussion here on Edmunds.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I have to admit that I do not think much of the people who soup up their cars' looks, but do nothing to improve performance. I am against all show and no go. I have no problem if you improve the show as long as you improve the go.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Larry's recent post makes me want to say that "we" are pretty tame when you compare this discussion with the discussion over on the high end.

    I put we in quotes because I don't feel that I have ever attacked anyone personally. I mean, I have not called anyone a Korean-hater or a Japanese-lover.
  • stebustebu Member Posts: 204
    Of course, you're correct. I intended to write Impreza and somehow wrote down Impulse. Freudian slip perhaps? :)
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    ummm kias used to use mazda engines, know they are soon to use hyunai engines. BUT i know wat you are talking about i respect mazda because they do make good engines.
    AND majorecho i said #1 IN THEIR CATEGORY. that means s-u-b c-o-m-p-a-c-t m-i-d s-i-z-e etc. do you understand now?? i do not care about quality category i care about what is the best overall.
    i think suburu WRX is the best car in its class because it has everything you could want.
  • liljonsonliljonson Member Posts: 109
    and majorecho, are you mad that you got an echo. that kids call you clown man or something. we are talking about every car and all you can do is babble about how you get into the circus for free. how bout you give some props to other cars too like everybody does. i even gave props to your car since i like how they use the power. all you talk about is my echo is great,it has tires the size of my hands, blah blah blah. please can you explain why you don't like any other car. this is a comparison of low end cars not echo takes on the world.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    And Toyota reliability for a bonus. My sister's 1985 Camry 4 door sedan with 4 cyl and AT has over 200,000 miles with no problems. Remarkable since she sold it to her daughter in 1994 when she bought a new Taurus and the daughter does not follow regular maintenance schedule.
    Our Korean/American neighbor had a Kia...but not for very long as she likes reliability. She now has a Nissan Pathfinder and Mercury Contour.
    Korean cars may have made drastic improvements in quality but the perception of quality and reliability place them just above the Yugo, Fiat and Renault in the opinion of most Americans.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMMember Posts: 7,615
    If you take the Kia cyber tour you'll see their philosophy. Building cars starts with people. Sounds simple but it requires a bit of thought. I see it in their buildwork. The Sephia's very comfortable to drive. Yeah, the Sticker Boys are a joke. I think you're right Daddy bought them their Sticker Boy car. I had a couple of them fly by me on I-5 yesterday on my way home from work. Of course, they were revving up to 85 or 90 and recklessly weaving in and out. Morons! Oh, while we're discussing Sticker Boys. The day before on the way to work I passed a State Patrolman on a motorcycle hiding. I looked back in my rearview mirror to see him order over an Acura (the one with Tiburon-type headlights) and a bright yellow Sticker-BoyMobile. Yes!!!! It made my day!!!!

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    If you are looking to me to validate your car purchase, you came to the wrong place. I did not come to this forum to have people approve of my car purchase, either.

    What should it matter what I think, what your neighbors think, what your co-workers think, what your parents, siblings, or children think of your car purchase.

    As long as you are happy with it, that is all that matters.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    By number 1 then, you mean that these cars will be considered the best in each category that they sell in.

    I don't know the future, but I seriously doubt it.

    Only time will tell.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    It is not that I don't like other cars, but a matter that I like the Echo the best. That is why I own one.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Iluv, you posted in this forum that you do not read the reviews because you think they must be on something. I see that is not accurate as you admitted in the Rio forum that you read the Car and Driver review of the Rio and you seemed to like the review. I take it that you only read reviews that agree with what you think?

    I read all the reviews on my car and it didn't matter to me as I was reading them whether or not they agreed with my viewpoint. I like hearing all sides of an issue. It is just the kind of man I am.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Given your recent post about the Acura Integra having Tiburon-type headlights, I hope you don't think that the Tiburon had those type of headlights first. The Integra had them first.

    It is funny that the Integra replacement (the RSX) is going back to the single headlight design. It is a good thing because the dual lights would look funny on this new design.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Thought the board members might like to hear how the "low end cars" are doing in terms of retail value as measured by Kelly Blue Book. These come from the actual book and not the website. One thing I like about the book is that it has sticker prices listed for when the car was new while the website does not.

    I will give the value of just a few cars in excellent condition, but if you want to know the value of yours, just let me know. I am not going to deal with what options do to the values. I just don't have that kind of time. I hope you understand.

    A 2000 Daewoo Lanos S Hatchback stickered for $9699 and has a retail value of $8050.

    A 2000 Hyundai Accent L Hatchback stickered for $9434 and has a retail value of $$8150.

    A 2000 Kia Sephia Sedan stickered for $11605 and has a retail value of $8825. BTW, a 1999 Kia Sephia stickered for the same and has a retail value of $8300.

    A 2000 Mazda Protege DX sedan stickered for $13,995 and has a retail value of $11,900.

    Finally, a 2000 Toyota Echo sedan stickered for $11,945 and has a retail value of $12,150. Yes, that is not a typo. A used 2000 Echo has a retail value higher than the sticker price when it was new. From personal observation, I can confirm that this is true at least where I live. The one or two used Echos that I have seen advertised had prices that were higher than when they were new.

    Some people will dismiss my figures with an insult or rude remark and some people will be disappointed that their vehicle (if I listed it) lost value but will take the news politely. It does not matter to me how you react so take this anyway you want.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some posts have been removed for being outside of the Terms of Use and/or off-topic.

    Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    And a Sienna does not lose much more. The vehicles used for fleets and rentals seem to take the biggest hits for retained value. If Toyota would add an LE option for the ECHO so that the interior would be of the same nice quality as the Sienna CE, it would be a viable choice for us. We liked the ECHO seating, the great forward visibility, the ease of entry and exit, the spacious trunk, the excellent performance and the terrific fuel economy...all with a 4 speed automatic.
    The ECHO is one of only 2 small cars which are comfortable for my wife and I. The PT Cruiser is more expensive and burns twice the gasoline.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    I need to clarify that retail value is what you would expect to pay a dealer for the car and not what your vehicle is worth in trade.

    But remember that the higher the amount the dealer can sell a used car for, the more he is going to give you for it in trade.

    But in the final analysis, what this all means is that it is vitally important that you take care of your car whether it be made by Koreans, Japanese, Europeans, or Americans.
  • fangio2fangio2 Member Posts: 214
    make some extra money.If a one year old Echo in excellent condition can be sold for more then a new one;a new demo should fetch an even bigger price.
    I read somewhere that Toyota dealerships were the most profitable.I wondered how they did that-now I know.The customer list from a Toyota dealer would be a telemarketers dream.
    Why talk about depreciation-Toyota dealers must score the highest on customer "appriciation".Someone should see if Powers has an award for that.
  • majorthomechomajorthomecho Member Posts: 1,331
    Thanks for the laughs. I especially liked your double meaning use of the word appreciation.
  • supremesupreme Member Posts: 38
    On 03/02/2001 i reported in the kia sephia discussion #206 that kbb listed 2000 kia sephia with 21000miles @ $8090 & i paid $7976. im not surprised at your findings; used cars obtain whatever the traffic will bear. and purchasers can buy them &/or new vehicles for whatever the deal they can make. supreme.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Taken from the Washington Post Writer's Group. The main point of improving health care in the USA is to use a model from Toyota which can compete in both quality and cost by inculcating a doctrine of "error-free" auto production. Toyota makes each employee feel responsible for meeting that standard and the employee is to signal loudly to the supervisor when something is preventing the employee to do his job well.
    Toyota management style seems to be VERY different from the norm of USA management. USA management theory seems to be "maximize profits with no regard to employee or product quality." Toyota's may cost more because many people place a premium on Reliability.
  • goralgoral Member Posts: 145
    retail values are truly a joke! Out of all consumer publications, Edmund's TMV numbers are actually much closer to real world. Want "real"? Look at something like Black Book, or whatever else is being used by dealers...
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