Audi A3

dino001 · April 2005

Oh no, I don't take an offence at all. I actually agree, if anything my WRX lacks, it is the interior feel. It is 95 Camry at best (ouch). I would say '05 is a bit better, still not enough for me either. That's why I am still even looking at other stuff (besides being a car nut, of course).

I can actually agree that $25K is a kind of a "sweet spot", where at this particular place there is really nobody similar around, except perhaps (dreaded by you) Saab 9-2X (and of course "family sedans"). And I see we also get an agreement that when we look "wider" in both directions, remembering limitations and tradeoffs, there is something worthy to look at, at least. With all the options I would like to have, the A3 loses its appeal very fast.

Regarding the turbo lag: I think it is a big misconception around the block is that it is so horrible thing, it is disqualifying from further review. After two years I can tell you, it should not be. It seems to be a big deal after a ten minute/half hour test drive with saleman telling you "do not cross 4000 rpm before it breaks in", but once you are really in charge and learn the right moves, WRX awards you with WHOLE LOT OF FUN. I drove A4 2.0 with manual. It is nice, quick, but boy: try an explosion on the first gear when you launch it, and you reach the red line before you notice! Let the turbo spool and do not shift at 3500 rpm and the reward is great! All cheap stuff inside doesn't matter anymore... Or until you stop the car

kyfdx · April 2005

I just read that incentives on the 9-2X just went from $5500 to $7000!!

A loaded 9-2X Aero with manual transmission comes in just under $32K.. that would mean you could probably buy it for $24K..

Not too bad for 227 HP and AWD... I know it isn't on par with an Audi in materials or driving feel, but it is still competition.. $30-$33K for an Audi A3 Quattro is going to be a tough sell....

regards,
kyfdx

dhanley · April 2005

I drove one at the gm driving event. Nice enough, but the interior still feels quite cheap, and i'm really not a fan of the turbo lag. I think i'd be fun if i were driving like a bat out of hell, and unplesant the rest of the time. And, to be honest, i spend a lot more time cruising in traffic, or driving across wisconsin with its over-eager state troopers, than i do sliding around corners. I still want "fun" but also tractable "the rest of the time."

wale_bate1 · April 2005

I'm just wondering how they figgered white ought to be a special order only color?

Ah well.

Even with the pricing, it remains one of the more intriguing offerings to come along in a while, or will be (for me) when quattro gets here. Personally, I'm hoping for success, but I also hope the pricing somehow gets tempered along the way. Perhaps some sort of initial soft consumer reaction, followed by a quick fix from Ingolstadt (yeah, right), followed by a sales explosion?

I'm really hoping we're headed for a proliferation of real compact sport-lux offerings. The A4, 3-series, etc, which used to be real compacts, are into midsize range now and are therefore less appealing to me. So, if getting the handling, engines, equipment and finshes that I like in a box I think is small enough means I'm paying mid $30Ks, I'm OK with it, as I was in '03 when I opted for my SportCross.

When we cross that 38th (K) parallel, I start to have second thoughts, though...

nippononly · April 2005

that is the "special" white you are talking about, just FYI in case you didn't know. There is a standard "brilliant white" which is no extra cost, not special order, and I believe is metallic.

dino: I just dislike the sensation that turbo lag provides, that is all. To me it is VERY noticeable in the WRX, and for the record no salesman I have had has told me to keep it under 4000 rpm - most pull it out of the lot for me, rev it to redline while it is stone cold, go 100 yards, then we trade places. A good reason never to buy the test drive car! :-)

If I am going to have turbo lag, I would just as soon go the half step further to a Honda-style 4-cyl engine and get better gas mileage. To me, the A3 finally has turbo lag beat so much that I have to really try to detect it before I notice it. Very acceptable.

The 9-2X is ridiculous - $7000 incentives? If I were actually interested in that model, I would buy the Subaru version, no question. Saab didn't improve the interior anywhere NEAR enough to match its image. However, I am just interested enough in the WRX (I like Subie in general) to wait until summer to see what we see on the brand new '06 model. It could very well be worth the wait.

robr2 · April 2005

The 9-2X is ridiculous - $7000 incentives? If I were actually interested in that model, I would buy the Subaru version, no question. Saab didn't improve the interior anywhere NEAR enough to match its image.

Ah but with the SAAB you get maintenance included, loaner cars, and a longer warranty plus the sunroof option N/A on the WRX IIRC.

stickguy · April 2005

took a drive in a DSG model today. Actually quite fun. Certainly the best AT I ever drove (or more accurately, the best car without a clutch pedal).

Of course, without the clutch, I kept forgetting to pull on the paddles, but it worked real well (up and down) when I did.

Also liked the gear indicator in the info panel. it even showed what gear you are in when in the normal (D) mode. Lot's of toys to keep you interested, but (the downside) keep your attention off the road.

I don't think it is good enough to get me to spend $1,200 and give up the third pedal, but if I had to go clutchless, this one would be the one.

wale_bate1 · April 2005

If they're offering the Brilliant, then they're witholding information, Nippon, 'cause it ain't on the configurator!

According to the site, the colors that dealers will be able to order for stock are: Brilliant Black, Brilliant Red, Ocean Blue pearl, Lava Gray pearl and Light Silver. The others are special order and dealers (if I'm reading this right) won't be able to order them as stock on hand.

Actually, I agree on SAABie. I'd go Subaru even though I don't care for the styling. The SAABing didn't help a whole lot; might as well stick with the original!

wale_bate1 · April 2005

Just thinking out loud here: the car's on the lot now, so maybe we could get out of solitary here in Future Vehicles and make our way into the general population in Hatches and Wagons?

dewey · April 2005

Well talking about Subaru as competition to the A3, I think the Forester Sti available in Japan only would be very interesting on this continent of ours. Cant stand the adolescent styling of the WRX sti, but this Forester Sti is definitely one of the most exciting family man cars I have ever seen!

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000960041385/

nippononly · April 2005

Oh yeah? I was just going by the brochure they gave me, haven't tried to use the configurator. There's nothing for me to configure anyway - I just want the base model, stick shift, with the sky view roof. Probably means the car I want is also special order only.

This topic should go out to the hatchbacks (ahem!) board now. My local dealer already sold one of the two he had - it is on the streets! :-)

wale_bate1 · April 2005

"Probably means the car I want is also special order only..."

Ahhh, yup! ;-]

Really, I can't think there's tremndous margin in a base model, so I would expect to see more dealers defaulting to at least "semi-loaded" for their inventories. The money's in the doo dads, if in fact there's any money in a new car sale.

nippononly · April 2005

I had an interesting conversation with the sales manager. Who knows if he was telling "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth", but he said Audi has asked them to carry some base models with no options added, which is the car I drove (in black). He did also say that they had no intention of ordering any models for stock that were "lightly loaded" - they will order enough totally base models to keep some in stock at all times, and the rest will probably sticker for over $30K. The other one they have (which they haven't sold yet) had the DSG, the sky roof, and about 15 other things including one of the big packages. He said that if I really wanted a base model with the sky view roof but without either of the packages, then I would almost certainly have to order it. I am cool wiht that, although I imiagine that would mean I would have to pay sticker for it? Which I am MUCH less than thrilled about. I don't mind waiting several months (he estimated four) for the car to come after I order it though.

wale_bate1 · April 2005

Interesting!

I have to haul my butt out to Livermore and take a look-see; maybe make friends with a sales manager. The schedule just hasn't had that kind of hole in it...

ivan_99 · April 2005

I always thought that if you ordered a car you could negotiate a LOWER price than the ones sitting on the lot. I thought the dealers paid for every day the inventory was just sitting there.

I think the dealers, in my experience, always tried to push their inventory because of the reasons mentioned above (its costing them money just sitting there).

dl7265 · April 2005

I guess their just not in the special order business as much as some others. If my ride can make it from Bremerhaven to the port in SC in less than 6 weeks, i dont know why they take four months (ouch). On another note a sales associate of Audi called me today to say they got four A3's in one DSG and 3 manuals. they sold the other four they have and assured me I could take one home today, when I mentioned I heard Audi was not allowing them to be delivered yet....

DL

wale_bate1 · April 2005

Somehow I think that lead time must be a very conservative estimate. Especially given that half of the colors offered are SO!

nippononly · April 2005

the V50 T5 last night, while the dealer was closed. The Volvo dealer closest to me stocks almost no V50s (maybe they are just really selling THAT well), and has no manual-shift T5s at all, either V50 or S40. The post a ways back that I could maybe test drive the sedan to get a sense of the powertrain if I was thinking of ordering the hatchback/wagon had me thinking that was a good idea, but I think a manual S40 T5 will be near as impossible to find in stock as the V50 T5. Kinda surprising too - they had several manual shift S60 T5s (same powertrain) in stock, why not have any of the smaller car? I guess I could drive the S60, but it is a noticeably bigger heavier car - not the best for appraising the way it would feel in the V50.

Anyway, from what I could see the V50 T5 is a couple thousand $$ more (at least) than the A3, the moonroof is optional on both, and I prefer the two-pane sky view roof of the A3 vs the traditional single pane moonroof on the Volvo. The two cars look to be almost identical in size. Of course, the V50 is more powerful. But I really can't imagine a Volvo manual shifter and clutch to be better than one from Audi/VW. The A3's shifter is marvelous.

So who knows, I may still test them back to back. I am not in a hurry. But it is a turn off that I have to look so far and wide to find the Volvo in a manual. The Audi dealer has taken delivery on some more A3s, and a couple were manual-shift base models, so clearly a manual A3 is not going to be hard to find.

qbrozen · April 2005

The S60 T5 is NOT the same powertrain as the S40 T5. For one thing, the S40 has about 37 less HP. I'm not even sure the S60 is a 6-speed, is it? Used to be 5-speed, but maybe they upped it this year when the upped the power and changed it from a 2.3 to a 2.4? The s60 is a high pressure 2.4, the s40 is a lower pressure 2.5. I'm stating this all off the top of my head, so I could have my numbers a bit messed up, but i'm positive they are not at all similar.

EDIT: just checked, the S60 T5 does now come with a 6-speed. S60 is 39 more HP, not 37. And about 22 more ft/lbs, by the by.

stickguy · April 2005

The T-5 S40 I believe uses the engine in the T model S60, not the T5 (just to beconfusing). Yes, they seem to be about the same size, but the volvo might be a bit higher sticker comparably equipped, but is also more likely to be discounted. From what I've heard, the clutch/shifter in the 40 is supposed to be a nice improvement over the older volvos.

My Volvo dealer had at least 2 S40 T5 sticks (plus a base model) out front, don't know about the back lot. DIdn't see a V50 stick, but there were only a couple that I saw up front.

Between the 2, the Audi (to me) has a sweeter engine, but you can pretty much decide based on your preferences. Functionally, they are close (size, etc.), but definately have their own personalities.

dhanley · April 2005

The engine and shifter in the v50t5 is not bad(tm). I've driven it a few times. A v50 t5 M with climate(heated seats), select(sunroof,upgraded sterio), DSTC and xenons can be gotten through carsdirect for $29K (32K sticker). The similar a3 is 30K sticker ( sport, metallic, cold weather, xenon ) but it has the bigger sunroof and leather. So for me, if i can get 1k off the a3 sticker, they're the same price. The v50 handles well but i expect the a3 will be better, though i have yet to drive the a3.

wale_bate1 · April 2005

It's encouraging that there are manual A3's out there, as well as some base configured ones on lots. I went back to the Volvo site and tried to get excited about the V50, but it just isn't working for me.

nippononly · April 2005

aah, that is the source of the confusion then: I am positive the two cars I was referring to had the identical output (208 hp/236 lb-ft); one was an S60 and the other was the V50 T5 I had been looking at. The S60 must have been the T, not the T5. The S40 and 60 seem to have the same base (NA) engine too, to judge by outputs. If they are not the same, they are so close Volvo should just save itself some money by streamlining and just using one engine.

I like the look of the V50, but I prefer the A3 - more "hatchy", less "wagony". And I don't want leather. The Audi's cloth is normal, nothing to get excited about. The Volvo's "cloth" is that "T-Tec" stuff that looks and feels similar to the material of the seats I had in my Matrix. It breathes well and seems durable, but I like the feel of the Audi's cloth better.

qbrozen · April 2005

the one stickguy is referring to is the 2.5T.

Nope, still not the same output. The V50/S40 T5 is 218 HP, not 208. PLUS, more importantly, there is no such thing as a manual transmission S60 2.5T.

Like alot of other manufacturers, Volvo does use some of the same engines across its product line, but tuned for different output.

stickguy · April 2005

right. They have 3 basic 5 cyl. engines, 2.5NA, and low and high pressure turbos. the 60 and 40/50 both use the NA engine, and the 40 T5 and 60T use the low pressure turbo. The S60 T5 gets the high pressure turbo, just to be confusing.

Audi isn't trying to cover the entry market with a smaller engine, Probably a smart move. They also make the manual available accross the board.

The 2.0T is a nicer engine overall, even if it is down on power (on paper) to the Volvo. I think it is just a nicer, smoother power delivery. Plus, plenty quick for the application.

nippononly · April 2005

Volvo is TOO confusing!

I am still generally a turbo disliker - the Audi 2.0T is so far the only turbo that is winning me over. If the Volvos have more turbo lag, then I will give them a miss.

blueguydotcom · April 2005

Salesguy called and told me they have an A3 with DSG in stock to drive. Gotta find time to get over there..

dl7265 · May 2005

Well I stopped by to see a new shipment of A3's. There were 2 base (no option's) and about 5 Fully loaded models sans DSG. So 25k and change or 33.9k. I have to wonder with 7k off a SAABaroo at about 21k how they compaire?

DL

wishstar · May 2005

Just test drove the A3 Saturday and hated it. I was an Audi afficianado for years, owned a 5000 for over eleven years, and left Audi in 1989 because of the problems they were having and the fear of lack of support here in the U.S. Have been driving a Mercedes 190 ever since. I found the car to be light and sloppy, and taking curves caused everyone in the car to lean. Rear visibility is horrendous. I did not find the seat very comfortable, either. My husband's Passat feels much more solid and handles a lot better. I have yet to try the mid-year A4, which will be soon, but if this car is what Audi is all about right now, I will not be purchasing one. I was extremely disappointed since I liked the looks of the car, was willling to forgive a lot in terms of performance, since I was in love with it, but there is a limit to compromise!

nippononly · May 2005

Did they have any color besides black? My dealer seems to get all the $25K base models in black only.

To me, there is no comparison between the A3 and the Saabaroos, but YMMV.

dl7265 · May 2005

yes, I went back drove the DSG today. The base cars were blk/beige and a red/blk. The shifts seems quick and there was no hesitation as many have felt on the other Tip models. Also torque steer was very minimal. However upon leaving a red light the SA dropped it into Sport mode and I spun both front tires, whoa what was that.... Over all I thought its a very useful and fun vehicle. And your correct the doors are a thud compaired to a blink on the saab. If it was RWD and priced a tad better they would probably get my money. Im sure the 3.2Q will be blast to drive but at close to 40k....hm I dunno.

fwiw I had no visability problems, and I was driving in a unfamilure part of downtown .
DL

nippononly · May 2005

"And your correct the doors are a thud compaired to a blink on the saab"

A blink, or even a clank. Plus the A3 has actual door frames IIRC. The WRX/9-2 windows are still frameless. Good for some things, not good for others.

dl7265 · May 2005

I suspect thats the root of the problem. Trying to remember another vehicle ive been in that had those frameless doors...

DL

might_buy · May 2005

I've driven the A3 manual standard suspension, and the DSG, both standard suspension and with sport suspension. I have to say, I wasn't woefully disappointed as a previous writer was. I don't know if he/she was able to drive an A3 with the sport suspension, but it made quite a difference. The car held the road much more tightly, and could really get tossed around. I drove it as hard as the cars I was driving at the Audi driving school, and it held up remarkably well. DSG with sport package is around 28K - a bargain in my book.

wale_bate1 · May 2005

I can't imagine buying a car like this without checking the "Sport Package" box, personally. I know there have been some mfrs who offer cosmetic "sport" packages (ummm, Lexus ES330? Blecch!), but when it's suspension components and such, I'm taking it.

On frameless glass, I had those on a 2001 Sebring LXi coupe (Mitsu Eclipse based). Those were actually nice, solid doors on a seriously under-valued car.

I had planned to run a set of install plans up to Concord today, which would have put me a couple blocks from an Audi dealer, but the GC said he could print from pdf files. There goes that test-drive opp...
[-(

dhanley · May 2005

The dealer had 2 a3's around, one base base car, one with DSG and a few options--i wanted manual, so i drove the base base car.

The cloth interior is sort of bleah. Even without the sunroof, headroom is sort of tight for me, and the salesman mentioned this. My hair brushes the roof and i can't lean left due to the slope of the roof. Switchgear, etc, felt ok. Good, actually. There's plenty of room in the hatch, even more with the seats folded down. Very practical. The back seats are also acceptably roomy. Starting the engine, i thought it sounded quite like a diesel. However, that was only on startup, i had no problem with the clutch, shifter, though i thought both were a bit light. The engine is pretty good, i didn't detect but a smidge of turbo lag, and power is quite good. In fact, twice under hard acceleration, the front wheels spun and traction control kicked in. I never spin the ires on my car in the dry, unless i'm showing off, but i did it in this one just driving hard. The engine is pretty darn noisy, even at mid-range RPM's. All in all, i think i like the volvo T5 engine/drivetrain better. The audi has less lag, but also less power and is less refined.

I took a few turns a little fast, but nothing i thought was conspicuous ( eg, 20 mpg turns at 30 ) , but the salesman seemed upset by this and directed me back to the dealership. I felt that the car was sort of loose and floaty, even though it didn't lean much, but on the other hand, the ride was quite compliant. Still, i couldn't imagine not getting the sport package. My 3-series doesn't have a sport package either, but the audi was quite a bit sloppier. Salesman said i must "destroy" cars with how i drive, and i told him my BMW has 100,000+ miles on it, and it's quite fine. He said no one ever drives wide-open throttle. Sigh. In general, he was a dolt, and even if i did get an a3, it wouldn't be from him.

It was pretty good, but by no means a home run for me. I'm going to wait until the 9-3 sportcross is testable, but i suspect i'll be getting a 3-series again.

dave

dl7265 · May 2005

oh man thats too bad. All the employee's at the local Audi store are Audi enthusiast and drive Audi's. They allways direct me to the most challenging roads for a drive. Sounds like he just came over from MB or something....

DL

wale_bate1 · May 2005

Or Lexus...
}-]

nippononly · May 2005

most likely Lexus! :-P

As for the sport package, I already have a sporty car that punishes me over the crap we call pavement in the Bay Area. The thing I liked about the base A3 was that it masked all that stuff with only a modest reduction in sportiness from my RSX. Now of course, if the sport package could still do that masking while increasing the handling quotient, then I might be very interested...

I might have to drive them back to back. It is just so darn difficult finding any manual-shift cars with any options.

dhanley · May 2005

I think he said he used to work at VW. I thought those guys drove aggressively too!

In any case, i ought not let the salesperson color my perceptions of the vehicle. He even did the whole "you won't be able to get the car you want, you'll need to buy this 33K loaded model." bit with me.

However, i walked across to the BMW dealer, and they were a lot friendlier to me, the saleslady and i were joking about euro delivery and the logistics of drinking and driving.

dave

blueguydotcom · May 2005

Wow, I so hate the hardsell.

I stopped at ford to see about a Mustang GT manual and the salesguy goes, "none in the county but we got a great automatic right here."

"That's worthless to me. Have a good day."

"It's the same thing. Just drive it." He said behind his snarky grin.

"Not by a long shot. Thanks."

I left rather than making a very nasty comment that the salesman was either a brazen liar or utterly ignorant. Selling a sports car and telling people autos are the same...yikes. Accept that someone looking for a manual might be the kind of driver who would notice the difference.

dl7265 · May 2005

Its funny, A lot of people misunderstand about the low pressure of a BMW center. They are so used to being harassed and hovered over every second they think the BMW sales persons are rude. I dropped in to check the status of my E90 delivery and was tossed the keys to the New 325i without asking. As I left the lot on my own the lunch crowd was looking around like "howd he get to do that".

Staying on topic I looked over the incoming A3's locally. Its seems that you can get a "base" model or fully loaded. I guess the good news was the number of manuals ordered. The bad is you cant get say a Sport/Roof car with out Nav,Bose, ect ect... without ordering a car. Shrug

DL

dhanley · May 2005

I've been through that too.

salesman: "Well, this is better, you can use the shifter to select the gears yourself!"

me: "That's not the same as a manual."

Salesman: looks at me as if i'm some kind of alien.

The BMW saleslady told me to come back anytime, their 330i tester is stick, sport package.

I think i don't want FWD for my style of driving, so that means i'd need the v6 to get the quattro. However, that brings it to 330i territory, considering options. It's getting to be a harder sell.

dave

blueguydotcom · May 2005

Me too. I like the A3 in many ways but I can't see forking over 33-34k for a Quattro A3 when I can get a 330i e90 for 35k ED.

wale_bate1 · May 2005

'Course, that assumes you like the size, feel and look of an E90...
;-]

I'm glad I'm a year out on this decision. It's very difficult when nobody's really offering exactly what you want, and everything is a compromise!

blueguydotcom · May 2005

Wale,

Same boat. 1 year until my e46 goes back to BMW.

Size is really the same as the current 3. Weight - it's heavier no doubt. Look = doesn't matter to me. I find it bland and totally uninteresting. I'll still buy it though...it's all about how it drives.

wale_bate1 · May 2005

Well, it really is bigger. How much is too much is of course a personal preference issue.

Wheelbase is up 1.4"
LOA is up 2.2"
Width is up 3"
Weight is up 132lbs

I thought it was more than adequate before myself, and I'm no fan of the current bulk-up trend going on, which is how I ended up looking in the direction of an A3 to begin with. In the absence of a small alternative like the A3, my market choice would be more along the lines of an S4 Avant, and it still may fall that way. The dark horse here could be the E90 Touring and whether or not they bring it as a 330, but Merc said it feels cavernous (paraphrase) on the inside now, and that's not a feeling I like. It's one of the things that turned me off of the G35 big time!

I know the outside of the box is a near-non in your book, but in mine it's hanging close to the top of the list, just below handling and above price. I have to have the emotional draw to be a happy canper.
;-}

nippononly · May 2005

mentioning the 330 actually SEEN the '06? I went over and looked at it yesterday - they had '06s and '05s right next to each other. The '06 looks very similar to the Z4 to my untrained eye. And compared to the '05, it is like someone with a clear complexion suddenly grew scars all over their face. At least the moonroof is now standard.

By comparison, the looks of the A3 flow and "make sense". Even the huge new grille looks good in this context - it visually separates the car firmly from the new Jetta/Golf, which would otherwise look awfully similar up front.

Can you get both 325 and 330 wagons (ARE there both 325 and 330 wagons?) with a manual shift? Or is it only the sedans that come with the manual? The only 3-series wagons they had at the dealer yesterday were '05s, and none had a stick. And even that wagon is bigger than an A3.

wale_bate1 · May 2005

The new wagon isn't here yet, Nippon. The current wagon is available here in 325 trim only. A manual is standard.

Rumor is that there will be a 330 wagon coming, but I'll believe it when I see it!

blueguydotcom · May 2005

Wale,

Having driven it the extra length is not really anything you'd notice. The wheelbase length went to the back seat.

The width is related to them including the door handles. It's really not any wider.

The A3 has, for me, the same kinda visual splash as say a TL, Corvette, TT, 3 series, Jetta, etc...in other words none.

Audi A3

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