Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

jchan2 · December 2003

we need to get back to the topic of comparing the Prius. It seems like all we're talking about is whether a manual transmission would fit in a Prius. Let's get back on topic.

xcel · December 2003

Hi Mikus:

___From my understanding, there are a few reduction gears outside the planetary based CVT. I will have to go back to the CVT construction earthlink pages linked in another Prius thread to verify however.

___Gasoline cars suck? How do you think the Prius goes 400 + miles then? Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone? Electric motors produce MAX torque at 0 RPM and fall off quickly thereafter. They are also limited to the motor construction as far as high RPMs as well. If small electric motors didnt operate in this fashion, Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM (better yet, a high efficiency Honda diesel) for battery charging alone and the batteries would discharge through a motor(s) and transmission for motive force. When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts. They might even be able to get rid of the transmission with GMs Hybrid wheel motor/generators or similar altogether Imagine the size ICE or diesel you would need and the mileage you would achieve if a Hybrid could be designed in this fashion? Step on the go pedal and you go ;-)

___Oh well, since none of the threads automobiles have this capability or technology, its not worth discussing.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

> Gasoline cars suck?

Yes, hybrids only sip gas.

> Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone?

To prevent overheating. Faster would require a larger (and consequently heavier) cooling system for the motor. It would also require the addition of a cooling system for the battery-pack. The battery-pack life would be shortened as well.

> Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin
> a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM

Didn't read my post from yesterday, eh?

I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!)

> When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When
> the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts.

That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right.

JOHN

jchan2 · December 2003

did anyone read post #57? we need to try to stay on topic of comparing the Prius with competitors and not give a lecture about the CVT transmission inside!

Sylvia · December 2003

belong in the general Prius discussion. This is the hotly contested comparison discussion, so please, compare.

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

> Yes, hybrids only sip gas.

___No, the Honda Insight 5 speed sips gas without assist from the IMA. You know, upwards of 90 + mpg and 0 to 60 in less then 13 seconds with 0% charge in the batteries. It should not have been a Hybrid in the first place

___For other extreme high mileage non-Hybrid automobiles, do a google search on Shell Eco-Marathon. We are speaking in excess of 10,000 miles per gallon from ICE Gas/Diesels, not Hybrids.

> I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!)

___You got what? First, I was not speaking of the Prius or any of the other 3 vehicles as stated but a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) engine/transmission with an imaginary motor supplying the total motive force to move the automobile. Two. I know the Prius engine varies in RPM. Any number of reviews have mentioned the 04 Prius engine to be quite raucous when accelerating hard. Since most electric motors produce a low hum, I would say the professional reviewers are speaking about the Prius ICE and if it were at a constant RPM, why is it not raucous in a steady cruise vs. accelerating?

___Now if the ICE or Diesel were only used to run the generator which in turn charged the batteries only, its RPM range could be constricted to within 500 RPM of maximum efficiency quite easily. From the CVT articles linked here the other day, it took ~ 15 HP to keep the Toyota Echo at a constant hwy cruise. Imagine that throughout a daily acceleration/braking/cruise/stop/go cycle of a Hybrid it averages 20  25 HP w/ spurts of 75  100 HP for very short periods of time. If this is in fact close to the truth (I bet it is), all you would really need is a 75  100 HP imaginary motor/battery pack and a 30  40 HP ICE or Diesel to run in its perfectly efficient RPM continuously until the pack is at 80% charge. I pulled the 80% charge from the Prius battery discussions previously and it sounds like a great idea for battery pack longevity. The only problem with this imaginary vehicle is when climbing mountains. Eventually the Battery Pack runs low/dead and the ICE/Diesel must do all the work of driving the car up the hill/mountain. You can drive a 2500 # vehicle up a mountain with only 30 to 40 HP of electric power but you wont be going 65 for long while doing so, that is for sure.

___Now back to the efficiency. What kind of mileage do you think you would get with a 30 to 40 HP Diesel or ICE running at its most efficient RPM and the low loss much higher power MG sets providing all the power? 100 mpg? 200 mpg? 300 mpg? The current HCH/Insight/Prius Hybrids are trying to attain 0 to 60 close to the magic 10 seconds thus the ICE has to provide the power vs. a large pack and motors needed for 75 - 100 HP operation. At least that is the way I see how Toyota and Honda are powering their Hybrids to this minimum std.

> That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right.

___Who cares what the threshold is as this is a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) that should achieve 100 to 200 mpg, not the current Prius that attains a measly 45 to 50 At 100 to 200 mpg, you can easily afford to use 100% Bio-diesel ($2.00 to $3.00 per gallon) in a Diesel equipped Hybrid and all energy and pollution issues disappear.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

Wayne,

What the heck is the discussion topic now, current or theoretical designs?

I thought the intent of this thread was to help those trying to make a purchase decision. Your twisting of my comments has veered you way off course.

JOHN

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___My twisting of comments? Here are a few of your own over the last few pages

> HCH has only one advantage over Prius. No
> Classic Prius is 72% cleaner. No
> Classic Prius clearly does better. No
> 2004 trumps 'em all! No
> Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car". I hear that all the time and No
> Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. No
> What's your point? Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time.
> SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities. No
> Reducing emissions sacrifices performance. No
> If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in it would gain acceleration & efficiency. No

___Did you want to bring up the 01-03 Prius in this thread again as well?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

Wayne,

The fact that you deny facts is the very reason I keep asking you to explain why.

For example, you said NO to "Classic Prius is 72% cleaner". Why?

SULEV is 72% lower in SMOG emissions than ULEV. How can you argue that it isn't?

JOHN

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___Because the HCH is available as an SULEV with either the manual or the CVT, not just a ULEV. You can go look it up at Honda.com --> Honda Automobiles --> Honda Civic Hybrid --> Specifications.

http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civi- c+Hybrid

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

You can't quote statistics from a ULEV then imply they match the SULEV, becaust they don't. That's my point. You must be explicit.

Honda removes the lean-burn to achieve the cleaner emissions. That impairs both the acceleration and the efficiency.

JOHN

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___Do you read what is posted at automobile manufacturers web sites? Honda states the same HP and Torque ratings between the ULEV and AT-PZEV vehicles and the HCH comes as either a CVT or a Manual in AT-PZEV format. The difference is in the fuel economy with the CVT swapping of its Hwy/City and the Manual losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating. Here is it again for you real slow so you can understand it better.

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 45/51
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 46/51

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 47/48
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 48/47

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm / with IMA): 87 @ 3300 / 116 @ 1500

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700

Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm / with IMA): 87 @ 3300 / 105 @ 3000

___You stated the HCH was available only in ULEV trim w/ a Manual a few pages back and I have already gone over this 3 or 4 times. Read it this time. You also appear not to know how lean burn operates. It is only under the lightest of loads that lean burn will be invoked. When a Honda drops out of lean burn, it actually accelerates with an increase in HP under the new richer mixture. Lean burn is for maximizing mileage, not HP or torque in the case of the Hybrid Hondas and the Civic CRX-HF from years gone by that I have read about. You can find out more about Lean-Burn from the Honda Insight members over at our favorite Honda Insight forum.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

> You also appear not to know how lean burn operates.

I oversimplied to avoid confusion. The Honda terminology is "S" mode, which actually handles several components of performance. One of which is lean burn.

> available only in ULEV

Correct. SULEV is only available in limited locations.

> losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating

Real-World data doesn't come close. Owners have reported a larger difference.

Whatever the case, you are finally back on topic. Yeah!

JOHN

Sylvia · December 2003

Full Test: 2004 Toyota Prius
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=100988

ateixeira · December 2003

Great review...

-juice

john1701a · December 2003

My 2001 Prius...

didn't have a NAV system

didn't have premium speakers

didn't have split-folding seats

didn't have SE (Smart Entry)

didn't have SS (Smart Start)

didn't have side-airbags

didn't have side-curtains

didn't have VSC (Vehicle Stability Control)

didn't have Bluetooth

didn't have Homelink

didn't have HID (High Intensity Discharge) lights

didn't have secondary lights

didn't have voice-recognition

didn't have heated mirrors

didn't have electric A/C.

Look closely at that list. None of those extras were available back in 2001. None of those extras improves acceleration or power of the vehicle. So anyone that accuses me of selling it because it didn't perform well is intentionally trying to mislead people. I work hard for my money. I wanted all of those extras. So I bought a new Prius that offered them. The fact that the efficiency is even higher and the emissions are even lower is a very welcome benefit as well. The fact that acceleration is even better is a just frosting on the cake, unnecessary but nice to have.

JOHN

john1701a · December 2003

Would you really trust someone that endorses a product but doesn't actually own one himself?

I think not.

The only way to be able to persuade someone to consider the purchase the newly designed Prius was to actually purchase one myself. So I did.

JOHN

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___You purchased the vehicle so you could convince someone else to purchase one? You lost ~ $11,000 on your first perfectly running Prius, didnt you? That is a lot of cash to convince someone else to do something?

___I sure hope you rated the above options worth at least $17,000 (apparently you do) but to purchase one to convince others? Are you nuts?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a · December 2003

> Are you nuts?

No. I'm quite wealthy. So I'm using that money to help make decisions for those with less easier.

I have 3 years of very detailed data already to share with others. They can use it to draw conclusions of their own, rather than having to read comments from you and I.

JOHN

Sylvia · December 2003

let's get back to the topic of comparing vehicles

nippononly · December 2003

that SULEV, ULEV etc are RANGES of emissions output, and do not exactly specify the amount of emissions for each vehicle. However, the amoun of emissions of each vehicle IS shown in a little sticker in the window when it is new. This has been a mandate for a few years now.

On Classic Prius, the old figure was 0.14. This year the scale has been halved, and the new Prius shows a 0.04, which on the old scale would have been 0.08. So, it has reduced its emissions this year by 0.06/0.14, or about 43%.

To compare, the PZEV Accord, Camry, and Focus all have the same number showing on their windows this year: also 0.04, same as Prius.

I wish I knew off-hand what HCH's smog number was. The manual Insight has a number much higher than this, something like 0.40, but the CVT is in the ballpark with the other PZEV cars.

On this scale, the "average" for all new cars is 1.02.

john1701a · December 2003

> the PZEV Accord, Camry, and Focus

Here's an interesting question for discussion...

Why aren't the PZEV Accord, PZEV Camry, PZEV Sentra, and PZEV Civic-Hybrid available anywhere except California? You can even special order one if you live in another state. Why?

My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.

PZEV Focus broke that concept in October, by becoming available throughout the United States. How many have been sold since then?

2004 Prius debuted the week afterward. 5,584 of them were sold in November. Even more were ordered.

Step back from the MPG issue for a moment and ask yourself what is even more important.

Lower emissions is absolutely essential. Just ask any parent caring for an infant, an elderly person, or someone suffering from asthma.

Prius makes PZEV very appealing, since you also get a significant efficiency improvement too. When the HSD in Prius is later installed in more common vehicles, like Corolla, it will become an appealing PZEV too.

JOHN

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___You sure do reach when you describe current markets

> My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra
> (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising
> expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but
> California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.

___So if the Prius cost $200 to $300 less and gained 1 to 3 mpg (Where did you come up with 3 mpg decrease for a PZEV?), would you purchase it in ULEV format? Would anyone with an EPA mileage estimate of 63/54? Auto manufacturers can choose to include or not to include the PZEV HW at their discretion. Automobiles are not designed around the fact that they are going to be PZEV rated because this is simply a $100 to $300 add-on in HW costs.

___If you want to bring efficiency into the mix, you will also want to speak about Greenhouse gases and this is where an automobile like the Honda Insight 5 speed is the proper choice. In fact, reading the Insightcentral FAQs, you can deduce Honda purposely created the two vehicles for two different schemes of controlling emissions. The CVT based Insight is EPA rated as a SULEV-2 w/ combined mileage ratings exceeding even the 04 Prius whereas the 5-Speed based Insight is a ULEV with extremely high fuel economy in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Having a choice would probably be more advantageous to most instead of straight PZEV alone. I am most certainly not recommending the purchase of a Honda Insight as it is a specialty vehicle for all intents and purposes but just wanted to bring up that with that particular Honda, you have a choice as to how you want to pollute the environment or the mileage you would like to receive. Well at least Auto or manual anyway ;-).

___Since you can already special order PZEV automobiles yet most dont, what does that tell you? Most dont care and would rather receive the less expensive automobile. Its not right for the environment or ones grandma but that is the way it is in this country for the time being. Hopefully with PZEV vehicles being discussed more and more, PZEV will become the std. for all automobile manufacturers to reach just as LEV and ULEV were before it or whatever the new emission ratings will be are under some future Tier 2.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

xcel · December 2003

Hi John1701a:

___You sure do reach when you describe current markets

> My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra
> (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising
> expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but
> California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.

___So if the Prius cost $200 to $300 less and gained 1 to 3 mpg (Where did you come up with 3 mpg decrease for a PZEV?), would you purchase it in ULEV format? Would anyone with an EPA mileage estimate of 63/54? Auto manufacturers can choose to include or not to include the PZEV HW at their discretion. Automobiles are not designed around the fact that they are going to be PZEV rated because this is simply a $100 to $300 add-on in HW costs.

___If you want to bring efficiency into the mix, you will also want to speak about Greenhouse gases and this is where an automobile like the Honda Insight 5 speed is the proper choice. In fact, reading the Insightcentral FAQs, you can deduce Honda purposely created the two vehicles for two different schemes of controlling emissions. The CVT based Insight is EPA rated as a SULEV-2 w/ combined mileage ratings exceeding even the 04 Prius whereas the 5-Speed based Insight is a ULEV with extremely high fuel economy in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Having a choice would probably be more advantageous to most instead of straight PZEV alone. I am most certainly not recommending the purchase of a Honda Insight as it is a specialty vehicle for all intents and purposes but just wanted to bring up that with that particular Honda, you have a choice as to how you want to pollute the environment or the mileage you would like to receive. Well at least Auto or manual anyway ;-).

___Since you can already special order PZEV automobiles yet most dont, what does that tell you? Most dont care and would rather receive the less expensive automobile. Its not right for the environment or ones grandma but that is the way it is in this country for the time being. Hopefully with PZEV vehicles being discussed more and more, PZEV will become the std. for all automobile manufacturers to reach just as LEV and ULEV were before it or whatever the new emission ratings will be are under some future Tier 2.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

nippononly · December 2003

here in CA, you don't have to special-order the PZEV cars, and they are the most popular versions of these popular cars. For instance, on Camry, it is the 4-cyl LE automatic, and on the Accord, it is the 4-cyl EX auto.

They also don't cost more than the same car in other states in those cases. It is true, however, that some manufacturers Ilike Saab for instance) charge a $200-300 premium for "California emissions".

The real toll paid by a PZEV purchaser is a drop in output, usually 4-6 hp, due to more restrictive exhausts.

As the years go by, and federal standards gradually become better for smog-forming emissions, you can bet that manufacturers like Honda and Toyota will start to make their PZEV models available nationwide. But it should be emphasized that the Focus is not some special one-off that cannot find buyers outside California. It is a standard model that sells just as well as Focus ever did. It probably sells better than Prius, if it comes to that, but certainly does so at a 50% or greater fuel economy penalty.

jchan2 · December 2003

have you ever driven a GM EV1? I remember that they were made ONLY for the California market, yet GM was promising that the EV1 was the reinvention of the automobile. What a joke. They pulled the plug to the EV1, as they're scrapping them.

backy · December 2003

I finally plunked down my $4.25 for the MT COTY issue and read the full COTY report. Much praise on the Prius, along with some gripes like body roll in the twisties, and some editors didn't like the "EPCOT Center" controls. I am not a huge fan of MT, but I highly recommend this issue to anyone with any interest at all in the Prius. (Can always get it at the public library.) One thing it has is a tech brief on the HSD, with scematics.

Some stats have been published here comparing the Prius to cars like the Corolla and Camry. The MT COTY tests provide some new information:

0-60 (seconds):
'04 Prius 9.8 (MT)
'03 Corolla auto 9.8 (CR)
'03 Camry LE 4 auto 9.5 (MT)

60-0 (feet):
'04 Prius 125 (MT)
'03 Corolla auto 128 (MT)
'02 Camry LE 4 auto 146 (MT)
'03 Camry LE 4 auto 128 (MW)

The Prius out-accelerated only four other COTY cars (Aveo, Freestar, Scion xB auto and manual, and Verona) but out-braked nineteen, and the shorter stoppers cost at least $4500 more than the Prius--and most over $10k more.

nippononly · December 2003

finally, some realistic performance stats on Prius and other cars around its price point. Some have stated that 60-0 times are shockingly poor in Prius, yet apparently these people don't realize that most of the mass transportation vehicles sold today have a 60-0 greater than 130 feet.

And a goodly portion of the fleet has a 0-60 of ten seconds or so, too. However, it just so happens that amongst the contenders for this year's COTY at MT, Prius was almost the cheapest one there, with only the Aveo, the Suzuki, and the Scions being cheaper. Half the pack cost half again what the Prius cost, or more. The point being, it is reasonable to expect that Prius would be out-accelerated by cars that were so much more expensive than it. And it still managed to out-accelerate one vehicle, the Freestar, that costs more!

backy · December 2003

The interesting thing to me about the MT editors' COTY review is that they are the type of people who love horsepower (and they said as much), yet they also recognize there's more to being an enthusiast than speed. They also said the Prius felt quicker--perhaps because of all the torque of the electric motor. That's important to me, because I usually go 0-60 in my car at most twice a day, but go 0-30 or 40 a lot. I suppose in the Prius though I'd be using a light foot in the 0-30/40 runs to keep it in electric-only mode as much as possible.

jchan2 · December 2003

the Freestar isn't really meant to be a sports car- Ford built the Freestar with family, safety, comfort, and taking vacations in mind. They don't expect nor do the people who will be buying Freestars and Montereys will drive their vans out to their limits. So, I think it seems reasonable that the Prius out accelerated the Freestar as the Freestar is really a van and wasn't designed with drag-racing in mind. (for that, Ford will gladly sell you a Mustang Cobra or Focus SVT)
It seems that the Civic Hybrid won't be a really big seller from here on to its next redesign as it has the problems of being based on a traditional car platform- when the Civic Hybrid isn't competitive enough yet the rest of the Civic line is still competitive, the Hybrid just has to sit on dealer lots waiting for the next redesign of the traditional Civic to become competitive with the new Prius.

nippononly · December 2003

very true, very true. By the same token, of course, Prius is not designed to be a sport sedan either. Different strokes for different folks. Actually, it doesn't hurt Prius in this comparo that Freestar is notably slower than all the other minivans out there, two of which were also in this test.

Now that Toyota has really taken off with its full hybrids, a la HSD, I don't think mild hybrids like the one in HCH will ever offer enough of an advantage over their ICE-only counterparts to attract lots of buyers. Maybe Honda should quit selling the equivalent models in ICE-only, and just make those hybrids.

priusorcivic · December 2003

Although I prefer many things about the Prius, it is unlikely that the 2004 Prius will be as highly rated (5 star NHTSA crash tests) as the Honda Civic. Per NHTSA, results of 2004 Prius not available till March of 2004. 2003 Prius only 3 stars for driver rating. It also frustrates me that side air bags are standard for the Civic Hybrid while an option on the Prius. I would appreciate any information or comments from others regarding this.

jchan2 · December 2003

how long can you wait for a car? If you can wait, I suggest you get on the waiting list now for a Prius. If you can not wait, head down to the Honda dealer and try to negotiate on a Civic Hybrid. Or, you can always try eBay for a quick new Prius. I don't know about crash scores. The Prius has gotten bigger, so much that it is now EPA classified as a midsize car mainly due to the hatchback.

priusorcivic · December 2003

Per NHTSA, from their classification criteria, 2004 Prius is still in compact category, due to its weight. No question that it has more internal room and feels more spacious than the Civic.
Does anyone else out there care about safety and crash ratings re Prius? Would appreciate any insights you might provide.......

backy · December 2003

First, why do you believe it is unlikely that the '04 Prius will be as highly rated in crash tests as the Civic? The Prius is an all-new design and Toyota has a good track record lately in designing cars that do well in these tests (e.g. the Corolla matches the Civic 4-door in NHTSA test results and is slightly better in the IIHS tests). Second, the Civic Hybrid does not have "5 star" ratings across the board. It is rated by the NHTSA as 5 stars for frontal impact and 4 stars for side impacts, even with its SABs. While SABs are standard on the Civic Hybrid, they are optional on all other Civics, including the high-end EX models. However, the optional SABs on the Prius include side curtains also, which should protect both front and rear passengers better than the SABs on the Civic.

Bottom line is I think it is premature to be negative about crash test results that haven't even occurred. My advice is (and what I did) is if you are interested in the Prius but are concerned about safety and can wait, get on a waiting list. By the time your car comes in, the crash test results might be out. NHTSA's site says "TBT" for the Prius, which means tests are scheduled for the near future. If your car comes in and the test results aren't out yet, you can always pass on the car. Be sure your order states that the deposit is refundable if you decide not to accept the car for any reason. Better yet, use a credit card for the deposit; you can then challenge it with the credit card company if the dealer doesn't refund your deposit.

jchan2 · December 2003

from experience, the credit card company always gets their money back.

john1701a · December 2003

I can't believe I forgot to include them in that impressive list of stuff that comes on Prius standard.

LEDs are superior to traditional lights, so they definitely should not be overlooked at a benefit Prius offers.

First and foremost, they are easier to see. The safety advantage of that should be obvious. Second is that they use less electricity, a clear perk when you have a vehicle that runs on electricity. Another point is the fact that they are more durable than a bulb, which should allow them to last the entire lifetime of the vehicle. Lastly, the fact that many luxury vehicles now offer them is a testament that they are more aesthetically appealing.

JOHN

veggieburger · December 2003

Hi guys,

From reading the boards I'm that the Prius will yield the best mpg among these cars but...
I have the following questions.
I put less than 10k miles on my car a year since I live relatively close to work (7-8 miles) and it's suburban driving - no highway, no real city stop-n-go traffic. Avg speed ~40 mph.
From a mpg perspective:
1. Would 5-speed manual be any better than a 4-speed automatic? CVT?
2. Where does my commute fit as far the optimal commute for taking advantage of the Prius HSD? I think the best MPG for a Prius would be "long" city driving trips (since the first 5 minutes is apparently not good for MPG).

Thanks.

jchan2 · December 2003

that a standard transmission Honda Civic HX might yield 45 MPG for you, and the Prius may do about 57 MPG with a CVT. I never get over 33 MPG with an automatic Civic sedan driving 99% suburbia traffic.

john1701a · December 2003

The topic thread establishes the assumption that the HSD system is standard, not luxury.

The truth of the matter is that HSD really is better than the implication, just refer to this site for details http://www.lexus-hybrid.com

JOHN

bksward · December 2003

Is this topic about Lexus?

No.

Is it about HSD?

No.

The topic is about comparing 4 cars.

Maybe add in other apropriate similar cars to the discussion.

Since Lexus also makes cars that run with plain ICEs does that make them luxuries and not standard?

john1701a · December 2003

>> Is it about HSD?
>
> No.

I beg to differ.

HSD is the propulsion system in Prius.

JOHN

bksward · December 2003

That the technology in the Prius will be used in a Lexus next year does not affect the relative merits of the Prius as an automobile compared to the Civic, Camry or the Corolla.

Why does it need to be injected here?

It really doesn't make my car's HIDs any better because they are also available on a Mercedes. My auto-dimming mirror doesn't add more value to my car because it is also available on the 2004 Prius...

john1701a · December 2003

> relative merits

Resale value is an aspect considered as part of the purchase decision. You've witnessed the lack of data available to that respect. So right now, only guestimates can be made. Real-World data about HSD will be gathered from any vehicle using HSD... regardless of type. So Lexus will get pulled into the analysis. For that matter, the Toyota SUV using it will be included too.

I attempted to not include resale value in previous discussions, since some people never intend to sell anyway. Am I going to get beat up for including it now?

JOHN

jchan2 · December 2003

resale is actually a good topic. For those of us who trade cars every 5 or 6 years, this may not be as important as say, reliability, but for those who trade yearly or every other year resale may be an important factor. But, Prius shoppers aren't especially concerned about resale as they are more concerned with being environmentally friendly and helping to conserve our nation's resources.

john1701a · December 2003

> Prius shoppers aren't especially concerned about resale

That was my take. I figured if I got a fair deal on my trade-in, I'd be happy. And since someone else would just take over driving the old Prius for me, it would continue to be another clean vehicle on the road.

After all, the used market for hybrids has to be established somehow. If Toyota would have made all the goodies available since day one, none of the original owners would want to part with their Prius.

JOHN

ateixeira · December 2003

Resale is a tough topic to nail down because, at best, all you have is a guesstimate. The market changes quickly and substantially.

What if you paid above MSRP to buy an Odyssey a couple of years ago? Now the minivan segment has heated up substantially, and new Odys are selling at big discounts, which lowers used values.

And that was a safe bet. Imagine bigger risks. You get an XP2000 and then the XP3000 comes out and makes your model seem old.

Prius demand is very high, surely that will settle down. You're probably better off waiting until prices settle (as demand settles or as supply increases), plus they can iron out the first year kinks.

-juice

jchan2 · December 2003

I decided to wait on buying an Odyssey- ended up paying $500 less than sticker in 2002. Waaay less than the $2,000 above MSRP dealers were charging in 1999.

ateixeira · December 2003

Exactly. Your patience paid off. Your 2002 even has more power and an extra tranny gear, probably for less money than folks paid for their '99s.

-juice

jchan2 · December 2003

so now I'm waiting on the Prius to cool off. Then, I'll drive to the local dealer with the keys and title to my Civic, and order up a new Prius. (or some other car, I haven't decided)

Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

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