Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
A complete list of voice commands has been posted (and is discussed) along with features, etc. at john1701a, "Toyota Prius 2004+" #1955, 27 Dec 2003 5:45 pm
Also - don't forget to post about your buy in the Toyota Prius: Prices Paid & Buying Experiences discussion.
Again - congrats!
Newbies keep making assumptions that the split in the rear actually interferes with what you see. But in reality, that quite simply isn't true. The two windows work like bifocal glasses.
The bottom part is only for parking and tailgaters. It is too low to see anything else anyway, since it sits mostly below the top of the back seats and with no trunk in the way... making it an area not even visible in sedans. Remember, Prius is a hatchback.
The top part is where all of your normal distance viewing takes place. Note the vertical height. First impression is that it is smaller than average. There is actually more than than people realize.
JOHN
The reason I mentioned RailroadJames is because he is a very enthusiastic and interesting Prius owner that is very open and honest. And as much as he enjoys and like his Prius he has mentioned the backup vision problem before.
Just another perspective,
MidCow
P.S.- If only Prius would make a manual shift Prius I would get one in a heartbeat and now if looks as if the 2006 Civic Hybrid is auto only URG!
-juice
midcow,
The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system.
My question is with the changes to the 2006 HCH will it get better mileage than the Prius. Early reports say an honest 50 MPG combined. If the design is better it should surpass the Prius. Will that affect sales to the Prius? There seems to be a lot of eager buyers waiting for the 2006 Civic to arrive. I'm not a big Honda fan. I would like to see the pendulum swing the other direction for a while. If the two cars get the same mileage, the $5k to $8k premium on the Prius should help the wise shoppers decide on the HCH. What affect will the Prius production moving to China create?
I was going by advertised prices on the Prius. I believe the dealer had a #4 for $28k and a #6 for $30k. Assuming the 2006 HCH does not top $23k you get the figures I stated. Buyers seem to be content to pay MSRP for the Prius, which makes it easy to tack on a few extras. In CA you add $2500 for taxes and license. If you take a quick peek at the TMV here on Edmund's you will see that the going rate for a #6 Prius is a bit over $29k. The HCH is a little over $20k. So I guess my estimates were a little on the low side. If you are buying a car to be green and use less gas. The two are comparable in those to areas. If you want to look green or need the hatchback, you are going to pay a minimum of $4500 more for the Prius. The days of a $20k Prius are long gone. In CA don't expect to get out the door for less than $27k.
Also, why compare a fully loaded Prius to a HCH that doesn't have as much equipment? All that does is bias the comparison in favor of the smaller, lesser-equipped HCH. How about comparing the base models of both? The TMV in my area for the '05 Prius is $24k--although I know at least one dealer where I can get it for MSRP (maybe less), which is $21,815. If you follow the Prius discussions here or elsewhere you'll see that many people are picking up a Prius for MSRP or less. Maybe not in San Diego, but not everyone lives in San Diego. The TMV for the base HCH with CVT (Prius has a CVT also) is $20,903. The TMV for the '06 will undoubtedly be higher because it's a new design and a much more desirable car. As it is, there's currently less than $1000 difference and for that extra money you get a much roomier car with hatchback versatility.
My biggest complaint about my Prius is the Rr View Mirror ... It takes some care to double check to the right @ intersections for other cars that I occasionally miss due to the mirror. Yes I've made adjustments but still miss some cars. I'm 6 ft.
Railroadjames(Free-us Prius)
P.S. Midnight....I agree about manual tranny except that once I got use to the Prius CVT I now wonder why I ever thought that way.....Try it You'll See!
Honda Civic Hybrid (91 points)
It's a Honda. It has the familial "connectedness" gene, i.e., no fuzzy logic in the controls. Driving is always fun in Hondas.
I expect the 2006 HCH should really give the Prius a run for the money....
Railroadjames
Railroadjames
They did sell more in August than for quite a while. I think it is the ideal commuter car.
PS
I don't think they can justify spending money on changes selling 55 units per month.
Honda only built 150 of the 2005 for the United States.
They clearly aren't interested in greater sales. It's basically just a collector's item in the making... which actually isn't too bad of a thing. Automotive history is loaded with extremely limited quantity vehicles that are now prized items by the few that own them.
JOHN
But the new one gains some efficiency, and Honda is closer to the EPA numbers than Toyota has been. So it'll be very close.
-juice
"The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system. "
Well, actually it does have gears: sun, ring, and planetary gears.
But the design of the system does eliminate the need for a conventional; automatic or manual transmission. so in effect you answer is correct "...The HSD doesn't have gears, so there is no way to put in a manual transmission without completely redesigning the system. " but sadly I already knew that and was lamenting that fact.
YMMV 6-speed,
MidCow
Those are just power carriers, not gears, serving the same purpose as the connectors in a differential. It is not a transmission, since nothing ever disengages or even shifts. They just spin.
What would having gears accomplish?
You already have the ability to "downshift", kicking in a boost from the motor and/or gas engine (determined by what was powering the tires in the first place) when you step harder on the pedal.
JOHN
As a seasoned Prius owner i thougth you knew how the CVT planetary gear system worked. Here is a technical slide presentation that in session 2 shows the details of the Prius HSD system.
Look at slide 28 in particular. It shows a picture of the actual Prius gears: sun ,planetary and ring.
Here is the URL : http://www.engin.umd.umich.edu/vi/w4_workshops/Miller_W04.pdf
The gear system acts as a transmission by combining the outputs of two Motor /Generators MG1 and MG2 with the drive to the wheels.
The "power carrier" is just a name Toyota coined to try to explain the system to the non-engineering background, general public.
I will state correctly again the HSD system uses gears!
YMMV,
MidCow
How come that isn't called a transmission?
How come the components inside it aren't called gears?
How come nothing ever engages & disengages?
What is the point giving the same name for a device that is completely unlike any other?
JOHN
It is "PSD", which stands for Power Split Device.
JOHN
Look at this URL on the bottom of page101 and top of page 102: "In a series/parallel hybrid (such as the Prius), a power splitting device divides the power from the engine, so the ratio of power going directly to the wheels and to the generator is continuously variable. Since the motor can be run on the electricity as it is generated, the motor is used more than in a parallel system. "
ALL series/parallel hybrid systems, example Prius, need a power splitting device, hence the coined name:
http://www.homepower.com/files/HP102_100.pdf
Have a Good Day,
MidCow
Early you were referring to the transmission as CVT se one of your earlier
posts: #54 john1701a, "Hybrids: Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?" #54, 3 Dec 2003 12:31 am
1. some people call it a transmission there was a lot of debate about that.
2. they are called gears, just by their specifc name for their specific
function.
3. That is true in one sense the gear cogs engage/disengage but the gear
realtionship is fixed.
4. Marketing _ remember the "turbo-hydramatic transmission"
John, if you will stop an think about the engine rotates and wheels rotate.
There are only a handful of ways to connect two rotating devices:
(1) directly connect via a shaft or cable
(2) use wheels/pulleys and connect by a belt
(3) use wheels pulleys and connect by friction pressure
(4) use gears and connect by a gear chain.
(5) use gears and directly engage the gear cogs.
The HSD sytem uses a CVT planetary gear set which is a version of (5). It is
actaully a pretty innovative system by using two Motor Generators sun gear and
palnatary ring to drive the wheels and achieve the same effect as a conventional
CVT transmission. CVT stand for continuously varialble can almost infitiley vary
the final drive ratio between a lower and upper limit. think of a very low first
gear ratio ( around 13.5 to 1) up to a very high highway gear ratio (around 2.5
to 1) and basically an infinite number of ration in between.
I am sorry you are having trouble understanding the concept. There is a very
simplified, animated version of how the gears work at this URL:
http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
Here is another diagram of the Prius gears: http://home.nyc.rr.com/tewedding/HSD/Prius_Transaxle.GIF
The HSD is a innovative transmission ,but it uses GEARS and is a planetray -CVT
type transmission.
Good luck in your further understanding of the Prius HSD system.
Cruis'n 6-speed manual,
MidCow
http://www.broward.com/mld/cctimes/classifieds/automotive/12721217.htm
He points out the two superior points of the Prius:
Larger trunk space and the Civic does not offer ESC (Electronic Stability Control).
Additionally, the Civic does not even offer traction control!
I'd rather have that stuff then 20 speakers!
Sounds like they forgot to put in the safety features when they did the redesign!
Funny that the Accord has it though!
I was hoping Honda would wise up with the HAH but they did not. Again I was hoping they would wise up for the 2006 HCH, they did not. I HOPE Toyota STAYS wise when they put out the Hybrid Camry about a year from now.
It clearly isn't a hatchback vs sedan issue, the non hybrid Civic has folding rear seats, my '86 Mazda 626 sedan had folding rear seats, so do most other sedans so what gives? I can't believe Toyota has some patent on the 'truck' deck at the level of the top of the battery pack and a storage tray behind the battery and under the deck such that no one else can have a similar design. Even if Honda left it as is, who cares? The back (now top) of the folded rear seats would still be at or above the level of the battery compartment. So what if you have an 8" drop to the rest of the trunk area? It is sad such a little thing makes such a big difference in functionality.
-juice
I think it is for design reasons. They put the batteries in that space behind the seats, and don't have to engineer a space for battery packs. Thus Honda can use their conventional design vehicles without major modifications.
It's not such an issue with SUVs; they have more space inside. Same with the GMC hybrid pickup.
Toyota Prius v. Honda Civic Hybrid
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8c4a3
You can comment on it there - hey! another place for you to post...
note - if you have autologin/remember me you might have to put the URL in as for some reason clicking on it is giving a redirect to our main blog Straightline http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline
The Prius had the room that I need and the functionality that I need. Certainly the non hybrid Civic would be cheaper, but it wouldnt have the space that I need. It really was as simple as that. The test-drive went fine and the car met my expectations. Certainly not a dragster, but I am not looking for a muscle car, just a car to commute with. And as I sit in traffic for too long, the Prius made sense as it turns the ICE off.
So, I asked the Honda dealer for a test drive in a non-hybrid Civic. He couldn't produce one in the trim that I was looking at, much less a hybrid. What bothered me is that he then told me that I didn't need a hybrid and that Honda only made hybrids to compete with Toyota.
I then asked the Toyota dealer for a test drive in a Prius. It happened within 3 days. The Prius provides the room that I need; the Civic (hybrid or otherwise) doesnt. Mine is currently on order. Sure, it is more expensive, but it is a better car. As far as the HCH, I didn't like the idea of a belt-driven transmission. I have had some 'negative experience' with Hondas and belts.
" .. (Prius) Sure, it is more expensive, but it is a better car. "
Based on what you stated, you should not get a Prius, but you should get a LX Accord or Special Editon Accord instead. They are much less expensive to purchase than even the base Prius. If TCO is one of your key criteria, which it appears to be, then the Prius will not pay off!
Your "better car" will end up costing you a lot more!
Have to think about that one... :confuse:
That does seem a bit stiff. The 2006 leather NAV version in San Diego, a known Honda gouging location, is right at $26k. By comparison the 2005 pkg 6 Prius is $28,629 locally. The 2006 Prius with leather is going to be a bit more. I would think it would be easier to find an Accord than a Prius also. Good luck in your quest.