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Comments
___From my understanding, there are a few reduction gears outside the planetary based CVT. I will have to go back to the CVT construction earthlink pages linked in another Prius thread to verify however.
___Gasoline cars suck? How do you think the Prius goes 400 + miles then? Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone? Electric motors produce MAX torque at 0 RPM and fall off quickly thereafter. They are also limited to the motor construction as far as high RPM’s as well. If small electric motors didn’t operate in this fashion, Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM (better yet, a high efficiency Honda diesel) for battery charging alone and the batteries would discharge through a motor(s) and transmission for motive force. When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts. They might even be able to get rid of the transmission with GM’s Hybrid wheel motor/generators or similar altogether Imagine the size ICE or diesel you would need and the mileage you would achieve if a Hybrid could be designed in this fashion? Step on the go pedal and you go ;-)
___Oh well, since none of the threads automobiles have this capability or technology, it’s not worth discussing.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Yes, hybrids only sip gas.
> Why does the Prius limit you to ~ 42 mph on electrics alone?
To prevent overheating. Faster would require a larger (and consequently heavier) cooling system for the motor. It would also require the addition of a cooling system for the battery-pack. The battery-pack life would be shortened as well.
> Toyota and everyone else would simply let the ICE spin
> a generator at a true constant speed at its most efficient RPM
Didn't read my post from yesterday, eh?
I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!)
> When the batteries are above 80%, the ICE stops. When
> the Batteries are below 40%, the ICE starts.
That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right.
JOHN
> Yes, hybrids only sip gas.
___No, the Honda Insight 5 speed sips gas without assist from the IMA. You know, upwards of 90 + mpg and 0 to 60 in less then 13 seconds with 0% charge in the batteries. It should not have been a Hybrid in the first place
___For other extreme high mileage non-Hybrid automobiles, do a google search on Shell Eco-Marathon. We are speaking in excess of 10,000 miles per gallon from ICE Gas/Diesel’s, not Hybrid’s.
> I mentioned the increase in RPM from 6,000 to 10,000. Toyota did in fact implement the very thing you claim they couldn't. (Ha! Got ya!)
___You got what? First, I was not speaking of the Prius or any of the other 3 vehicles as stated but a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) engine/transmission with an imaginary motor supplying the total motive force to move the automobile. Two. I know the Prius’ engine varies in RPM. Any number of reviews have mentioned the 04 Prius’ engine to be quite raucous when accelerating hard. Since most electric motors produce a low hum, I would say the professional reviewers are speaking about the Prius’ ICE and if it were at a constant RPM, why is it not raucous in a steady cruise vs. accelerating?
___Now if the ICE or Diesel were only used to run the generator which in turn charged the batteries only, its RPM range could be constricted to within 500 RPM of maximum efficiency quite easily. From the CVT articles linked here the other day, it took ~ 15 HP to keep the Toyota Echo at a constant hwy cruise. Imagine that throughout a daily acceleration/braking/cruise/stop/go cycle of a Hybrid it averages 20 – 25 HP w/ spurts of 75 – 100 HP for very short periods of time. If this is in fact close to the truth (I bet it is), all you would really need is a 75 – 100 HP imaginary motor/battery pack and a 30 – 40 HP ICE or Diesel to run in its perfectly efficient RPM continuously until the pack is at 80% charge. I pulled the 80% charge from the Prius battery discussions previously and it sounds like a great idea for battery pack longevity. The only problem with this imaginary vehicle is when climbing mountains. Eventually the Battery Pack runs low/dead and the ICE/Diesel must do all the work of driving the car up the hill/mountain. You can drive a 2500 # vehicle up a mountain with only 30 to 40 HP of electric power but you won’t be going 65 for long while doing so, that is for sure.
___Now back to the efficiency. What kind of mileage do you think you would get with a 30 to 40 HP Diesel or ICE running at its most efficient RPM and the low loss much higher power MG sets providing all the power? 100 mpg? 200 mpg? 300 mpg? The current HCH/Insight/Prius Hybrid’s are trying to attain 0 to 60 close to the magic 10 seconds thus the ICE has to provide the power vs. a large pack and motors needed for 75 - 100 HP operation. At least that is the way I see how Toyota and Honda are powering their Hybrid’s to this minimum std.
> That isn't true 100% of the time. The threshold has other influencing factors allowing people to go above or below if the conditions are right.
___Who cares what the threshold is as this is a Hybrid (could be an Insight, HCH, or Prius shell) that should achieve 100 to 200 mpg, not the current Prius that attains a measly 45 to 50 At 100 to 200 mpg, you can easily afford to use 100% Bio-diesel ($2.00 to $3.00 per gallon) in a Diesel equipped Hybrid and all energy and pollution issues disappear.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
What the heck is the discussion topic now, current or theoretical designs?
I thought the intent of this thread was to help those trying to make a purchase decision. Your twisting of my comments has veered you way off course.
JOHN
___My twisting of comments? Here are a few of your own over the last few pages
> HCH has only one advantage over Prius. No
> Classic Prius is 72% cleaner. No
> Classic Prius clearly does better. No
> 2004 trumps 'em all! No
> Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car". I hear that all the time and No
> Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. No
> What's your point? Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time.
> SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities. No
> Reducing emissions sacrifices performance. No
> If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in it would gain acceleration & efficiency. No
___Did you want to bring up the 01-03 Prius in this thread again as well?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The fact that you deny facts is the very reason I keep asking you to explain why.
For example, you said NO to "Classic Prius is 72% cleaner". Why?
SULEV is 72% lower in SMOG emissions than ULEV. How can you argue that it isn't?
JOHN
___Because the HCH is available as an SULEV with either the manual or the CVT, not just a ULEV. You can go look it up at Honda.com --> Honda Automobiles --> Honda Civic Hybrid --> Specifications.
http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civi- c+Hybrid
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Honda removes the lean-burn to achieve the cleaner emissions. That impairs both the acceleration and the efficiency.
JOHN
___Do you read what is posted at automobile manufacturers web sites? Honda states the same HP and Torque ratings between the ULEV and AT-PZEV vehicles and the HCH comes as either a CVT or a Manual in AT-PZEV format. The difference is in the fuel economy with the CVT swapping of its Hwy/City and the Manual losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating. Here is it again for you real slow so you can understand it better.
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 45/51
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 46/51
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (AT-PZEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 47/48
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV): (City/Highway EPA estimates) - 48/47
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a 5-Speed Manual (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm / with IMA): 87 @ 3300 / 116 @ 1500
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net / with IMA): 85 @ 5700 / 93 @ 5700
Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a CVT (ULEV or AT-PZEV)
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm / with IMA): 87 @ 3300 / 105 @ 3000
___You stated the HCH was available only in ULEV trim w/ a Manual a few pages back and I have already gone over this 3 or 4 times. Read it this time. You also appear not to know how lean burn operates. It is only under the lightest of loads that lean burn will be invoked. When a Honda drops out of lean burn, it actually accelerates with an increase in HP under the new richer mixture. Lean burn is for maximizing mileage, not HP or torque in the case of the Hybrid Honda’s and the Civic CRX-HF from years gone by that I have read about. You can find out more about Lean-Burn from the Honda Insight members over at our favorite Honda Insight forum.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I oversimplied to avoid confusion. The Honda terminology is "S" mode, which actually handles several components of performance. One of which is lean burn.
> available only in ULEV
Correct. SULEV is only available in limited locations.
> losing 1 mpg in the EPA city rating
Real-World data doesn't come close. Owners have reported a larger difference.
Whatever the case, you are finally back on topic. Yeah!
JOHN
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=100988
-juice
didn't have a NAV system
didn't have premium speakers
didn't have split-folding seats
didn't have SE (Smart Entry)
didn't have SS (Smart Start)
didn't have side-airbags
didn't have side-curtains
didn't have VSC (Vehicle Stability Control)
didn't have Bluetooth
didn't have Homelink
didn't have HID (High Intensity Discharge) lights
didn't have secondary lights
didn't have voice-recognition
didn't have heated mirrors
didn't have electric A/C.
Look closely at that list. None of those extras were available back in 2001. None of those extras improves acceleration or power of the vehicle. So anyone that accuses me of selling it because it didn't perform well is intentionally trying to mislead people. I work hard for my money. I wanted all of those extras. So I bought a new Prius that offered them. The fact that the efficiency is even higher and the emissions are even lower is a very welcome benefit as well. The fact that acceleration is even better is a just frosting on the cake, unnecessary but nice to have.
JOHN
I think not.
The only way to be able to persuade someone to consider the purchase the newly designed Prius was to actually purchase one myself. So I did.
JOHN
___You purchased the vehicle so you could convince someone else to purchase one? You lost ~ $11,000 on your first perfectly running Prius, didn’t you? That is a lot of cash to convince someone else to do something?
___I sure hope you rated the above options worth at least $17,000 (apparently you do) but to purchase one to convince others? Are you nuts?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
No. I'm quite wealthy. So I'm using that money to help make decisions for those with less easier.
I have 3 years of very detailed data already to share with others. They can use it to draw conclusions of their own, rather than having to read comments from you and I.
JOHN
On Classic Prius, the old figure was 0.14. This year the scale has been halved, and the new Prius shows a 0.04, which on the old scale would have been 0.08. So, it has reduced its emissions this year by 0.06/0.14, or about 43%.
To compare, the PZEV Accord, Camry, and Focus all have the same number showing on their windows this year: also 0.04, same as Prius.
I wish I knew off-hand what HCH's smog number was. The manual Insight has a number much higher than this, something like 0.40, but the CVT is in the ballpark with the other PZEV cars.
On this scale, the "average" for all new cars is 1.02.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Here's an interesting question for discussion...
Why aren't the PZEV Accord, PZEV Camry, PZEV Sentra, and PZEV Civic-Hybrid available anywhere except California? You can even special order one if you live in another state. Why?
My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.
PZEV Focus broke that concept in October, by becoming available throughout the United States. How many have been sold since then?
2004 Prius debuted the week afterward. 5,584 of them were sold in November. Even more were ordered.
Step back from the MPG issue for a moment and ask yourself what is even more important.
Lower emissions is absolutely essential. Just ask any parent caring for an infant, an elderly person, or someone suffering from asthma.
Prius makes PZEV very appealing, since you also get a significant efficiency improvement too. When the HSD in Prius is later installed in more common vehicles, like Corolla, it will become an appealing PZEV too.
JOHN
___You sure do reach when you describe current markets
> My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra
> (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising
> expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but
> California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.
___So if the Prius cost $200 to $300 less and gained 1 to 3 mpg (Where did you come up with 3 mpg decrease for a PZEV?), would you purchase it in ULEV format? Would anyone with an EPA mileage estimate of 63/54? Auto manufacturers can choose to include or not to include the PZEV HW at their discretion. Automobiles are not designed around the fact that they are going to be PZEV rated because this is simply a $100 to $300 add-on in HW costs.
___If you want to bring efficiency into the mix, you will also want to speak about Greenhouse gases and this is where an automobile like the Honda Insight 5 speed is the proper choice. In fact, reading the Insightcentral FAQ’s, you can deduce Honda purposely created the two vehicles for two different schemes of controlling emissions. The CVT based Insight is EPA rated as a SULEV-2 w/ combined mileage ratings exceeding even the 04 Prius whereas the 5-Speed based Insight is a ULEV with extremely high fuel economy in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Having a choice would probably be more advantageous to most instead of straight PZEV alone. I am most certainly not recommending the purchase of a Honda Insight as it is a specialty vehicle for all intents and purposes but just wanted to bring up that with that particular Honda, you have a choice as to how you want to pollute the environment or the mileage you would like to receive. Well at least Auto or manual anyway ;-).
___Since you can already special order PZEV automobiles yet most don’t, what does that tell you? Most don’t care and would rather receive the less expensive automobile. It’s not right for the environment or ones grandma but that is the way it is in this country for the time being. Hopefully with PZEV vehicles being discussed more and more, PZEV will become the std. for all automobile manufacturers to reach just as LEV and ULEV were before it or whatever the new emission ratings will be are under some future Tier 2.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___You sure do reach when you describe current markets
> My take on it has always been that emissions alone doesn't sell. The $200 to $300 extra
> (along with the 1 to 3 MPG drop) just doesn't appeal to most, which means some advertising
> expenditure is required. And since automakers can't collect CARB-CREDITS anywhere but
> California, that is the only place they'll even offer them.
___So if the Prius cost $200 to $300 less and gained 1 to 3 mpg (Where did you come up with 3 mpg decrease for a PZEV?), would you purchase it in ULEV format? Would anyone with an EPA mileage estimate of 63/54? Auto manufacturers can choose to include or not to include the PZEV HW at their discretion. Automobiles are not designed around the fact that they are going to be PZEV rated because this is simply a $100 to $300 add-on in HW costs.
___If you want to bring efficiency into the mix, you will also want to speak about Greenhouse gases and this is where an automobile like the Honda Insight 5 speed is the proper choice. In fact, reading the Insightcentral FAQ’s, you can deduce Honda purposely created the two vehicles for two different schemes of controlling emissions. The CVT based Insight is EPA rated as a SULEV-2 w/ combined mileage ratings exceeding even the 04 Prius whereas the 5-Speed based Insight is a ULEV with extremely high fuel economy in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Having a choice would probably be more advantageous to most instead of straight PZEV alone. I am most certainly not recommending the purchase of a Honda Insight as it is a specialty vehicle for all intents and purposes but just wanted to bring up that with that particular Honda, you have a choice as to how you want to pollute the environment or the mileage you would like to receive. Well at least Auto or manual anyway ;-).
___Since you can already special order PZEV automobiles yet most don’t, what does that tell you? Most don’t care and would rather receive the less expensive automobile. It’s not right for the environment or ones grandma but that is the way it is in this country for the time being. Hopefully with PZEV vehicles being discussed more and more, PZEV will become the std. for all automobile manufacturers to reach just as LEV and ULEV were before it or whatever the new emission ratings will be are under some future Tier 2.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
They also don't cost more than the same car in other states in those cases. It is true, however, that some manufacturers Ilike Saab for instance) charge a $200-300 premium for "California emissions".
The real toll paid by a PZEV purchaser is a drop in output, usually 4-6 hp, due to more restrictive exhausts.
As the years go by, and federal standards gradually become better for smog-forming emissions, you can bet that manufacturers like Honda and Toyota will start to make their PZEV models available nationwide. But it should be emphasized that the Focus is not some special one-off that cannot find buyers outside California. It is a standard model that sells just as well as Focus ever did. It probably sells better than Prius, if it comes to that, but certainly does so at a 50% or greater fuel economy penalty.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Some stats have been published here comparing the Prius to cars like the Corolla and Camry. The MT COTY tests provide some new information:
0-60 (seconds):
'04 Prius 9.8 (MT)
'03 Corolla auto 9.8 (CR)
'03 Camry LE 4 auto 9.5 (MT)
60-0 (feet):
'04 Prius 125 (MT)
'03 Corolla auto 128 (MT)
'02 Camry LE 4 auto 146 (MT)
'03 Camry LE 4 auto 128 (MW)
The Prius out-accelerated only four other COTY cars (Aveo, Freestar, Scion xB auto and manual, and Verona) but out-braked nineteen, and the shorter stoppers cost at least $4500 more than the Prius--and most over $10k more.
And a goodly portion of the fleet has a 0-60 of ten seconds or so, too. However, it just so happens that amongst the contenders for this year's COTY at MT, Prius was almost the cheapest one there, with only the Aveo, the Suzuki, and the Scions being cheaper. Half the pack cost half again what the Prius cost, or more. The point being, it is reasonable to expect that Prius would be out-accelerated by cars that were so much more expensive than it. And it still managed to out-accelerate one vehicle, the Freestar, that costs more!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It seems that the Civic Hybrid won't be a really big seller from here on to its next redesign as it has the problems of being based on a traditional car platform- when the Civic Hybrid isn't competitive enough yet the rest of the Civic line is still competitive, the Hybrid just has to sit on dealer lots waiting for the next redesign of the traditional Civic to become competitive with the new Prius.
Now that Toyota has really taken off with its full hybrids, a la HSD, I don't think mild hybrids like the one in HCH will ever offer enough of an advantage over their ICE-only counterparts to attract lots of buyers. Maybe Honda should quit selling the equivalent models in ICE-only, and just make those hybrids.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Does anyone else out there care about safety and crash ratings re Prius? Would appreciate any insights you might provide.......
Bottom line is I think it is premature to be negative about crash test results that haven't even occurred. My advice is (and what I did) is if you are interested in the Prius but are concerned about safety and can wait, get on a waiting list. By the time your car comes in, the crash test results might be out. NHTSA's site says "TBT" for the Prius, which means tests are scheduled for the near future. If your car comes in and the test results aren't out yet, you can always pass on the car. Be sure your order states that the deposit is refundable if you decide not to accept the car for any reason. Better yet, use a credit card for the deposit; you can then challenge it with the credit card company if the dealer doesn't refund your deposit.
LEDs are superior to traditional lights, so they definitely should not be overlooked at a benefit Prius offers.
First and foremost, they are easier to see. The safety advantage of that should be obvious. Second is that they use less electricity, a clear perk when you have a vehicle that runs on electricity. Another point is the fact that they are more durable than a bulb, which should allow them to last the entire lifetime of the vehicle. Lastly, the fact that many luxury vehicles now offer them is a testament that they are more aesthetically appealing.
JOHN
From reading the boards I'm that the Prius will yield the best mpg among these cars but...
I have the following questions.
I put less than 10k miles on my car a year since I live relatively close to work (7-8 miles) and it's suburban driving - no highway, no real city stop-n-go traffic. Avg speed ~40 mph.
From a mpg perspective:
1. Would 5-speed manual be any better than a 4-speed automatic? CVT?
2. Where does my commute fit as far the optimal commute for taking advantage of the Prius HSD? I think the best MPG for a Prius would be "long" city driving trips (since the first 5 minutes is apparently not good for MPG).
Thanks.
The truth of the matter is that HSD really is better than the implication, just refer to this site for details http://www.lexus-hybrid.com
JOHN
No.
Is it about HSD?
No.
The topic is about comparing 4 cars.
Maybe add in other apropriate similar cars to the discussion.
Since Lexus also makes cars that run with plain ICEs does that make them luxuries and not standard?
>
> No.
I beg to differ.
HSD is the propulsion system in Prius.
JOHN
Why does it need to be injected here?
It really doesn't make my car's HIDs any better because they are also available on a Mercedes. My auto-dimming mirror doesn't add more value to my car because it is also available on the 2004 Prius...
Resale value is an aspect considered as part of the purchase decision. You've witnessed the lack of data available to that respect. So right now, only guestimates can be made. Real-World data about HSD will be gathered from any vehicle using HSD... regardless of type. So Lexus will get pulled into the analysis. For that matter, the Toyota SUV using it will be included too.
I attempted to not include resale value in previous discussions, since some people never intend to sell anyway. Am I going to get beat up for including it now?
JOHN
That was my take. I figured if I got a fair deal on my trade-in, I'd be happy. And since someone else would just take over driving the old Prius for me, it would continue to be another clean vehicle on the road.
After all, the used market for hybrids has to be established somehow. If Toyota would have made all the goodies available since day one, none of the original owners would want to part with their Prius.
JOHN
What if you paid above MSRP to buy an Odyssey a couple of years ago? Now the minivan segment has heated up substantially, and new Odys are selling at big discounts, which lowers used values.
And that was a safe bet. Imagine bigger risks. You get an XP2000 and then the XP3000 comes out and makes your model seem old.
Prius demand is very high, surely that will settle down. You're probably better off waiting until prices settle (as demand settles or as supply increases), plus they can iron out the first year kinks.
-juice
-juice