All ribbing aside, the 0-60 measure, while objective and probably the first cited metric by car nuts, have for practical purposes HAD almost no real meaning for a long time. One exception might be to teens racing each other. However as we know, street racing is both dangerous and against the law. This is especially true since most of our "AT SPEED" limits are 65-70-75 mph.
The purpose of this post was merely to REFUTE the claim that the Prius is a slug compared to the Jetta diesel. They're both fine for fuel efficiency. Reliability.. I am not even going to start that argument now.
quote Edmunds Long Term Test of 2004 PriusCurrent Odometer: 30,829 Best Fuel Economy: 44.4 mpg Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 40.8 mpg
Avg. 40.8 mpg and BEST of 44.4 mpg. Edmunds appears not to be biased for or against hybrids and after 2 years and 30,000 plus miles they have NEVER achieved 50 mpg or higher.
How are claims of 50 and 60 mpg of Prius fanatics to be believed?
I know several Prius owners and their long term mpg ranges from 37 mpg to 46 mpg averages.
Are the 50 and 60 mpg Prius claims on this forum simply prevarication by those biased to hybrids?
The results of Edmunds long term test surely do not support mpg claims higher than 45 mpg.
quote moparbad-"How are claims of 50 and 60 mpg of Prius fanatics to be believed?-end quote
How about the HBO Documented Prius Marathon, where the team of 4 hypermilers got 109 MPG in one Prius tank, driving normal public roads? Did you not see the news story? Here it is:
I have a co-worker who drives a 2005 Prius and has a 64 mile round trip commute on mostly on highways and gets 51 MPG regularly, and he does not even DO any hypermiler tricks !!
Anyone who doubts these capabilities is just ignoring reality.
I also think the results are a bit lower for the Edmunds folks because they take lots of short trips. To base fact on ONE test mule is quite foolish. I myself have driven the Prius on MANY long trips and EASILY get a little over 50mpg if I am crusing at 65. One trip last year down to the Delaware shore yielded 51.3 and I wasn't even trying. Gotta love it!!!!! Can't wait to finally get my own.
I would beg to differ with you about the reliability issue. There are lots of diesels in Europe and they are no more troublesome than gassers are over there. I owned a diesel in the early 80's. It was a true diesel and not a conversion. In 144+K miles I had one engine related repair and that occurred after the engine suffered hydro-lock damage at -25 F. Had to replace a bent intake valve. Other than that, one water pump and nothing else except regular maintenance.
The fear of lack of reliability came from our friends at GM. They turned a gas engine into a diesel. Simply does not work. They used the cheapest possible pumps and injectors too. Small wonder people are scared of them.
I am on my second diesel now, a Jeep Liberty CRD. Except for requiring a single software update, it runs like a dream. Long highway trips yield 29+ mpg at 62 MPH. Not bad for a 4300+ pound vehicle with the aerodynamics of a cinder block. When Jeep introduced the CRD this year, they expected to sell about 5000 of them. They had to ask DDC for another 2500+ engines to meet the demand.
The main issue with diesel reliability in this country is the poor quality of the fuel. European diesel has a higher cetane rating, is cleaner, and is ULS to boot. In this country, diesel fuel is considered to be an industrial fuel. Once the sulfur is reduced to UL levels and the cetane is improved, the reliability issue will become much less of a concern. Particulate and NOx will also improve significantly once the sulfur is removed.
I think you misunderstood me. Diesels are EXTREMELY reliable. My best friend still has his mid 80's Mercedes 300D and it runs like a champ. Not even broken in as it has 167,000 miles!! They don't makem like that anymore. The Liberty CRD had TONS of teething pains and still does. Its getting better. I would have no problem at all owning an Asian diesel. I look forward to them! I will not own a VW. I've owned three (I count Audi as VW) and they are troublesome. Do a google and you'll see.
I think they haven't brought it here due to their fear of terrible reliability. That's a fact!!!
wait a sec... I need some clarification. Are you claiming the fact is "the fear of terrible reliability," OR that diesels are actually unreliable, OR that "they" haven't brought it here for said misconception?
EDIT: oops. you just replied before I finished posting. I think that answers my question.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think they haven't brought it here due to their fear of terrible reliability. That's a fact!!!
Most ignorant statement I've seen all month. And this is a fact?
Sales of the CRD Liberty have exceeded the expectations of Daimler and they have publicly stated they will bring more diesels to USA due their success with the Liberty and the Mercedes 300. Daimler has no fear of diesels.
Earlier you posted a link to a "stuttering" petition for the Liberty CRD. There are 40 or so people signed up out of over 8,000 Liberty CRD sold. 0.005%
The Liberty CRD had TONS of teething pains There is an EGR problem, a reflash for the computer, and the stuttering "problem" is eliminated when using quality diesel fuel. That equal "tons"?
Your attempt to mislead and create fear of diesels has failed miserably.
All people have to do is read the CRD forum and they can form their own conclusion. They can also believe you and go buy a Jetta that does the 1/4 mile in a shade over 14 seconds. Haven't heard from you on that one yet. LOL!!! Talk about misleading. HYBRIDS...gotta love em!!!! HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE :shades:
Your attempt to mislead and create fear of diesels has failed miserably.
I agree. And the Liberty problems pale in comparison to the Prius problems that are still unresolved. See the latest post from Prius owner stuck at an intersection shortly after getting the recall work completed. Back to the drawing board for Toyota Prius engineers. They should be feeling the pressure about now.
There are some teething pains, but I would not say tons of them. The EGR issue is related to poor fuel quality and the high sulfur content of domestic diesel fuel. In the early builds there were some software issues but these have been pretty much taken care. The hesitation and/or stuttering is again a fuel related issue, namely inadequate or marginal cetane rating.
The issues with the VW diesels are in some way related to poor fuel quality. In Europe, there are far fewer issues with diesels and they have many more of them.
As to Asian diesels, I had one, namely an Isuzu. Hyundai make diesels for their cars, but they are licensed from the same company that makes the diesel for my Jeep, DDC (V.M. Motori)in Italy. They, DDC, have been making diesels since 1947. Honda diesels, until recently, were either built by someone else or are licensed, but I am not completely confident about that information. Toyota and Nissan make their own, but I do not know anything about them except that they exist.
As to diesels not being sold in five states, big deal. In CA, I can legally buy a diesel powered car that is used and that has at least 7500 miles on it (so I have read). Cannot buy them new, but damn near new.
VW, Daimler/Chrysler would not bring diesels into this country for a few years if they knew they could not meet emission standards for 2007 and beyond. I believe they will and they will be a viable long term alternative to hybrids and for less money.
quote Gary-"See the latest post from Prius owner stuck at an intersection shortly after getting the recall work completed. Back to the drawing board for Toyota Prius engineers. They should be feeling the pressure about now."-end quote
Again, you are famous for misinterpreting things. This incident you refer to is not related to the "Prius Stalling" software fix. If you recall, the problem was cars stalling and becoming UNDRIVEABLE. You remember that, I'm sure, since you have harped on it every since you read about it. THIS particular incident to which you so smugly referred to as more of the same is OBVIOUSLY not the same, because the driver was able to get the car into Drive and move it out of the intersection:
"...while I had turned on the blinking lights, cars still came up to my rear. I called Toyota on cell phone and while I had previously not been able to turn off the car or change to 'drive', 'reverse' or anything else, after a few minutes it allowed me to shift into 'D' so I could move it out of the intersection. At Toyota, I had oil changed and the 50P recall work done.They said they had just re-programed the car. Mine is a 2004.
So obviously, this is different problem, not a STALLING problem which was remedied by the 50P recall. No one needs to go "back to the drawing board" except you, King of Naysayers....
All people have to do is read the CRD forum and they can form their own conclusion.
I have read every post on the Liberty diesel. And yes it had some issues that were serious. Nothing like stalling at 65 MPH on the Interstate. I think if you have read the Prius threads you will see a much larger percentage of problems than the Liberty diesel.
The one thing that stands out on both vehicles is the owners Loyalty for both the Prius & Liberty diesel. I am not that loyal of an owner of any vehicle or brand.
Every vehicle has problems but you simply can NOT draw a conclusion soley from Edmunds that one car has more issues than another. Having OWNED a Libery I can attest to many facts about the vehicle. There IS a software fix for the Prius and NOW it has NO issues to speak of. As to the Liberty...that is a different story. Dragging brakes, studdering, overheating, etc etc. I feel sorry for the people that were towing because that caused even MORe problems. Funny how you don't post about Liberty problems but you LOVE to jump up and down regarding the Prius. Weird!!!!
So obviously, this is different problem, not a STALLING problem which was remedied by the 50P recall.
I think you should go and read all the posts on the ODI website. Many of those with stalling Prii were able to hobble on electric only to the side of the road. That is EXACTLY what this latest owner is reporting happened. Maybe you can come up with some other excuse for Toyota.
Funny how you don't post about Liberty problems but you LOVE to jump up and down regarding the Prius. Weird!!!!
What is weird about that? The Liberty CRD owners accept that there are problems and they deal with them. Hybrid and especially Prius owners try to deny any problems exist. That is why all the media coverage. It is a high profile car with problems. Most people are not even aware that Jeep sells a diesel.
Well, Toyota obviously knows what the cause of the stalling problem is, or they could not have a recall to fix it. No car company has a recall before they know how to fix the problem.
So by following basic logic, someone who has the recall service performed on their car, which is KNOWN TO FIX THE problem cannot have the SAME problem AFTER the fix......my gosh, how much simpler can I make it?
I have posted comparing the TDI vs the Civic gasser, The nexus of the Civic is the cost comparison vs hybrid. The real world experiences has been FLAWLESS for the TDI and Civic gasser. While there is literally a plethora of differences; in so far as scheduled maintenance is concerned, the technical data paints the oem Honda oem less than sure about the long term reliability. First they have a normal vs severe cycle, then they have a "designer" or du jour maintenance schedule for almost literally any condition you find yourself. You literally have OCI or oil change intervals from 3,000 to 10,000 miles. On the Jetta, I get let down when I approach 25,000 miles for the next OCI. Also given the EXACT same drivers, the tires brakes, etc. are trending to wear a min of 2x faster than the VW Jetta TDI. More to the point given the same vanilla plain jane commute (real purpose of the purchases) OPERATING costs are higher for the Civic.
True, VW has a higher RATE of cars that have so called "problems" over Honda's rate. But statistically, me getting the BEST TDI and BEST Civic and BEST TOGETHER, are at best: HIGHLY unlikely.
Yeah, I think if one requires a hybrid (for whatever reason) conceptually in that context: this is the best of both combinations. 1.5 BILLION in government monies (spent during the Clinton administration) : research done by the BIGGIE 3 automakers (or should I say 3= 2 to 2.5) has more than amply demonstrated the small diesel engine (by itself!! ) is capable of 75-95 mpg and HIGHER and with more torque than a like gasser!! So if you add on the potential fuel savings of the hybrid (23% over a gasser alone) we are talking about 90-115 mpg. "Off the shelf technology"
Dragging brakes, studdering, overheating, etc etc. I feel sorry for the people that were towing because that caused even MORe problems. Funny how you don't post about Liberty problems but you LOVE to jump up and down regarding the Prius. Weird!!!!
Dragging brakes? That has NOTHING to do with the diesel engine and I've yet to see where this has been anything other than surface rust or debris on the discs. Much ado about nothing.
Overheating. They do not overheat. The CRD had a software-gauge issue and there was actually no overheating. Problem solved. read the TSB
Towing Problems? There are no towing problems. If you know of towing problems please share them.
Stuttering- This was addressed earlier and proper fuel eliminates this.
The biggest problems are the EGR(which may or may not be resolved at this time), a software reflash for early builds, and a small percentage of torque converter failures which is non-diesel related.
Although problems exist, you are blowing them out of proportion and creating imaginary problems where non exist.
Your attempt to mislead and create fear of diesels has failed miserably.
mr 'hybrid is a dud in every respect' suddenly gets his back arched about the Liberty. Are you afraid of what's around the corner with yours?
You also havent made it clear why the hybrids irk you so much. They are just another vehicle. They are statistically likely to be more reliable than your DC vehicle simply because they are from Toyota, but hey everyone to their own. You pay your money and you take your chances.
these can be chipped to produce staggering results. OK, maybe staggering isn't the word. But definitely an incredible improvement over stock. Keeping them reliable when pushing boost that high is debatable, however. But I'm sure there is a happy medium.
And, honestly, juice (just saw your post after submitting mine), I don't think modding is completely unreasonable, especially conisdering modding a turbo diesel to be quicker is cheap and easy ... however, when discussing hybrids vs diesel for economy purposes ... it is pretty silly to bring up performance (as i think maybe juice is indicating).
Personally, I want a diesel BECAUSE its good on gas and can perform when modded. But I won't compare it to hybrid based on these reasons. The 2 should be compared for what they were intended ... economy.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Buy April 2006 all US desiel will be low sulfur desiel . At that point all VW TDI's will pass emmision standards in all 50 states and Washington D.C. Yes all 50 states including CA .
warranty all depends on what exactly happens to the vehicle. But, I digress. You and I both agree (i think) that the performance of these vehicles isn't the debate ... its the economy. (or at least it should be)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
well, that last post will be deleted, gagrice... but maybe this one won't if i describe it thusly:
you've linked to a claimed time of 14.5 sec 1/4 mile for a Jetta TDI. In the mods list, driver says he has a chip that has added 100 lbs of torque and 45 hp.
To juice's point about reliability and warranty. The driver also says the tranny is holding up but is slipping. So he is obviously going to have problems that will not be covered by his warranty. So now his cost of ownership will go in the toilet and any money he has saved on gas thusfar will be negated (and then some) by repair costs. Not really a smart move and certainly adds a point in the gas/hybrid column, IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
quote RobertE1-"Buy April 2006 all US desiel will be low sulfur desiel . At that point all VW TDI's will pass emmision standards in all 50 states and Washington D.C. Yes all 50 states including CA ."-end quote
That is yet to be seen. There is nothing set in stone that says CAFE/CARB will approve the diesels in the CARB states.
And after it taking several years in Europe for low sulfur diesel to get entrenched in the supply and distribution system, do you really think it will just magically happen in the USA distribution system?
Diesel still has a ton of infrastructure changes to be made before it becomes a viable high-volume engine technology for passenger cars in the USA.
I need a little more education on this. Won't ALL diesel then be low-sulphur? Which means all stations that offer diesel will be offering low-sulphur diesel instead? Or will there really need to be 2 pumps with 2 tanks?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I personally would not do anything to a vehicle that would jeopardize the warranty. I was just trying to verify the claim. I believe someone modified a Prius to run on the salt flats. I agree that has little to do with the reason most would buy either a hybrid or a diesel vehicle.
Comments
Looks like the Jetta is indded spunkly with its 5 speed but IS slower to 60 versus the Prius.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/1215782.html?page=7&c=y
The purpose of this post was merely to REFUTE the claim that the Prius is a slug compared to the Jetta diesel. They're both fine for fuel efficiency. Reliability.. I am not even going to start that argument now.
Best Fuel Economy: 44.4 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 40.8 mpg
Avg. 40.8 mpg and BEST of 44.4 mpg. Edmunds appears not to be biased for or against hybrids and after 2 years and 30,000 plus miles they have NEVER achieved 50 mpg or higher.
How are claims of 50 and 60 mpg of Prius fanatics to be believed?
I know several Prius owners and their long term mpg ranges from 37 mpg to 46 mpg averages.
Are the 50 and 60 mpg Prius claims on this forum simply prevarication by those biased to hybrids?
The results of Edmunds long term test surely do not support mpg claims higher than 45 mpg.
300C 3.0 CRD
This is the type of diesel that would be a Deal.
428 lb/ft of torque is incredible!
How about the HBO Documented Prius Marathon, where the team of 4 hypermilers got 109 MPG in one Prius tank, driving normal public roads? Did you not see the news story? Here it is:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm
I have a co-worker who drives a 2005 Prius and has a 64 mile round trip commute on mostly on highways and gets 51 MPG regularly, and he does not even DO any hypermiler tricks !!
Anyone who doubts these capabilities is just ignoring reality.
The fear of lack of reliability came from our friends at GM. They turned a gas engine into a diesel. Simply does not work. They used the cheapest possible pumps and injectors too. Small wonder people are scared of them.
I am on my second diesel now, a Jeep Liberty CRD. Except for requiring a single software update, it runs like a dream. Long highway trips yield 29+ mpg at 62 MPH. Not bad for a 4300+ pound vehicle with the aerodynamics of a cinder block. When Jeep introduced the CRD this year, they expected to sell about 5000 of them. They had to ask DDC for another 2500+ engines to meet the demand.
The main issue with diesel reliability in this country is the poor quality of the fuel. European diesel has a higher cetane rating, is cleaner, and is ULS to boot. In this country, diesel fuel is considered to be an industrial fuel. Once the sulfur is reduced to UL levels and the cetane is improved, the reliability issue will become much less of a concern. Particulate and NOx will also improve significantly once the sulfur is removed.
wait a sec... I need some clarification. Are you claiming the fact is "the fear of terrible reliability," OR that diesels are actually unreliable, OR that "they" haven't brought it here for said misconception?
EDIT: oops. you just replied before I finished posting. I think that answers my question.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Most ignorant statement I've seen all month.
And this is a fact?
Sales of the CRD Liberty have exceeded the expectations of Daimler and they have publicly stated they will bring more diesels to USA due their success with the Liberty and the Mercedes 300. Daimler has no fear of diesels.
Earlier you posted a link to a "stuttering" petition for the Liberty CRD. There are 40 or so people signed up out of over 8,000 Liberty CRD sold. 0.005%
The Liberty CRD had TONS of teething pains There is an EGR problem, a reflash for the computer, and the stuttering "problem" is eliminated when using quality diesel fuel. That equal "tons"?
Your attempt to mislead and create fear of diesels has failed miserably.
I agree. And the Liberty problems pale in comparison to the Prius problems that are still unresolved. See the latest post from Prius owner stuck at an intersection shortly after getting the recall work completed. Back to the drawing board for Toyota Prius engineers. They should be feeling the pressure about now.
The issues with the VW diesels are in some way related to poor fuel quality. In Europe, there are far fewer issues with diesels and they have many more of them.
As to Asian diesels, I had one, namely an Isuzu. Hyundai make diesels for their cars, but they are licensed from the same company that makes the diesel for my Jeep, DDC (V.M. Motori)in Italy. They, DDC, have been making diesels since 1947. Honda diesels, until recently, were either built by someone else or are licensed, but I am not completely confident about that information. Toyota and Nissan make their own, but I do not know anything about them except that they exist.
As to diesels not being sold in five states, big deal. In CA, I can legally buy a diesel powered car that is used and that has at least 7500 miles on it (so I have read). Cannot buy them new, but damn near new.
VW, Daimler/Chrysler would not bring diesels into this country for a few years if they knew they could not meet emission standards for 2007 and beyond. I believe they will and they will be a viable long term alternative to hybrids and for less money.
Again, you are famous for misinterpreting things. This incident you refer to is not related to the "Prius Stalling" software fix. If you recall, the problem was cars stalling and becoming UNDRIVEABLE. You remember that, I'm sure, since you have harped on it every since you read about it. THIS particular incident to which you so smugly referred to as more of the same is OBVIOUSLY not the same, because the driver was able to get the car into Drive and move it out of the intersection:
"...while I had turned on the blinking lights, cars still came up to my rear. I called Toyota on cell phone and while I had previously not been able to turn off the car or change to 'drive', 'reverse' or anything else, after a few minutes it allowed me to shift into 'D' so I could move it out of the intersection. At Toyota, I had oil changed and the 50P recall work done.They said they had just re-programed the car. Mine is a 2004.
So obviously, this is different problem, not a STALLING problem which was remedied by the 50P recall. No one needs to go "back to the drawing board" except you, King of Naysayers....
I have read every post on the Liberty diesel. And yes it had some issues that were serious. Nothing like stalling at 65 MPH on the Interstate. I think if you have read the Prius threads you will see a much larger percentage of problems than the Liberty diesel.
The one thing that stands out on both vehicles is the owners Loyalty for both the Prius & Liberty diesel. I am not that loyal of an owner of any vehicle or brand.
I think you should go and read all the posts on the ODI website. Many of those with stalling Prii were able to hobble on electric only to the side of the road. That is EXACTLY what this latest owner is reporting happened. Maybe you can come up with some other excuse for Toyota.
What is weird about that? The Liberty CRD owners accept that there are problems and they deal with them. Hybrid and especially Prius owners try to deny any problems exist. That is why all the media coverage. It is a high profile car with problems. Most people are not even aware that Jeep sells a diesel.
So by following basic logic, someone who has the recall service performed on their car, which is KNOWN TO FIX THE problem cannot have the SAME problem AFTER the fix......my gosh, how much simpler can I make it?
In case you hadn't noticed, nobody on the "other side" is going to change their mind and come around to your way of thinking anytime soon.
Can we stop beating the dead horse and actually have a discussion instead of an arguement??
True, VW has a higher RATE of cars that have so called "problems" over Honda's rate. But statistically, me getting the BEST TDI and BEST Civic and BEST TOGETHER, are at best: HIGHLY unlikely.
I can not wait to read the full article! Looks to be a fair evaluation.
Maybe with a 100-shot of Nitrous.
-juice
PS With sources like this, no wonder your arguments lie on the diesel extreme
Dragging brakes? That has NOTHING to do with the diesel engine and I've yet to see where this has been anything other than surface rust or debris on the discs. Much ado about nothing.
Overheating. They do not overheat. The CRD had a software-gauge issue and there was actually no overheating. Problem solved. read the TSB
Towing Problems? There are no towing problems. If you know of towing problems please share them.
Stuttering- This was addressed earlier and proper fuel eliminates this.
The biggest problems are the EGR(which may or may not be resolved at this time), a software reflash for early builds, and a small percentage of torque converter failures which is non-diesel related.
Although problems exist, you are blowing them out of proportion and creating imaginary problems where non exist.
No nitrous is involved. And no, the car is not stock.
PS With sources like this, no wonder your arguments lie on the diesel extreme
This is no aguement. The data is genuine.
Your attempt to mislead and create fear of diesels has failed miserably.
mr 'hybrid is a dud in every respect' suddenly gets his back arched about the Liberty. Are you afraid of what's around the corner with yours?
You also havent made it clear why the hybrids irk you so much. They are just another vehicle. They are statistically likely to be more reliable than your DC vehicle simply because they are from Toyota, but hey everyone to their own. You pay your money and you take your chances.
Manual - 0-60 11.5 Seconds Top Speed 115
Top speed Electroincly Limited
Not fast by any means but ok for what it is !!!! More luxuray than speed . :shades:
I bet if you push a TDI off a cliff it will travel 1/4 mile in less than 14 seconds, too.
So what?
Let's stick to performance for stock vehicles, which I believe are similar, high 17s for both.
-juice
And, honestly, juice (just saw your post after submitting mine), I don't think modding is completely unreasonable, especially conisdering modding a turbo diesel to be quicker is cheap and easy ... however, when discussing hybrids vs diesel for economy purposes ... it is pretty silly to bring up performance (as i think maybe juice is indicating).
Personally, I want a diesel BECAUSE its good on gas and can perform when modded. But I won't compare it to hybrid based on these reasons. The 2 should be compared for what they were intended ... economy.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
VW's 1.8T is the most "chipped" engine ever, and it's also a problematic engine in terms of reliability. I doubt that's a coincidence.
I'll concede that a chipped VW TDI with no warranty and a very high reliability risk will outrun a Pruis under its full warranty.
That's not saying much.
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Low-sulfur diesel is on the way, but it's been postponed before, so we'll see.
-juice
http://www.dragtimes.com/Volkswagen-Jetta-Timeslip-4150.html
you've linked to a claimed time of 14.5 sec 1/4 mile for a Jetta TDI. In the mods list, driver says he has a chip that has added 100 lbs of torque and 45 hp.
To juice's point about reliability and warranty. The driver also says the tranny is holding up but is slipping. So he is obviously going to have problems that will not be covered by his warranty. So now his cost of ownership will go in the toilet and any money he has saved on gas thusfar will be negated (and then some) by repair costs. Not really a smart move and certainly adds a point in the gas/hybrid column, IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That is yet to be seen. There is nothing set in stone that says CAFE/CARB will approve the diesels in the CARB states.
And after it taking several years in Europe for low sulfur diesel to get entrenched in the supply and distribution system, do you really think it will just magically happen in the USA distribution system?
Diesel still has a ton of infrastructure changes to be made before it becomes a viable high-volume engine technology for passenger cars in the USA.
But I'm sure he's saving $3 a week on fuel. :P
-juice
Won't ALL diesel then be low-sulphur? Which means all stations that offer diesel will be offering low-sulphur diesel instead? Or will there really need to be 2 pumps with 2 tanks?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The rest of us can compare stock to stock.
-juice