By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
( Hint: has to do with a certain poison.... ) "
Thanks for indirectly confirming what I have been saying all along. ! :)The regulators missed the boat back in the early 70's. Hybrids would probably not even be as good as diesels if leaded regular were used.
Read any review on a diesel and the first thing they mention is NOISE. Diesel cars are very noisy at idle and there is lots of NVH. Diesels will never be successful in this country unless the price advantage is much better for diesel fuel. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. I am still a strong proponent of hybrid technology, even though it looks pretty much like my next vehicle will be the BMW 3 series.
NAH, there's no way a rational human would think that.
Nevermind....
How old are those reviews you've been reading? I've ridden and driven in some very fine diesel powered vehicles over in Europe (Fiat, Opel, BMW, Mercedes to name a few) and other than the fact that they are faster between 20 and 100 than their gasser siblings (assuming a similar engine size), I defy any driver, passenger or nearby pedestrian to positively identify which car is a diesel (without looking at the logo of course).
The "Diesels Smell" and "Diesels Smoke" and "Diesels are Noisy" rhetoric is both old news and quite inaccurate.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Nevermind.... "
Most of your posts have been less than balanced. So I can understand why you would try to demonize whom you perceive as the "enemy". You probably also see a person that can see both sides of debate that way also.
Until ULSD fuel permeates the USA and all the old dirty diesel cars are replaced with modern diesel engines, the smell/smoke/noise issue is still true in the USA.
I was behind a mid-80s Diesel Rabbit the other day and it was trailing black smoke a half a mile behind it.
I get behind Phoenix City buses, which are supposedly using low sulfur diesel already, and I smell the exhaust.
I could pass your "tell me which car is diesel" test, you betcha !!
I am completely a fan of clean diesel and modern diesel engines with advanced technology particulate filters. Becuase THOSE are the cars which can most easily approach the cleanliness of the cleanest gasoline cars.
Problem is, that scenario is still a long way off in the USA.
NAH, there's no way a rational human would think that.
Hmmm, I guess I'm not rational. The fact is that cars with modern diesel engines (fed with modern low sulfur diesel) are arguably the equal of similar sized hybrids from an absolute fuel economy / fuel cost perspective. That said if one was to compare two similarly sized $25,000 cars (also assuming a similar level of technical competence from the manufacturer), one Hybrid and one Diesel, it is my assertion that for my typical driving regimen, the diesel will be the more fun car to drive, the safer to operate and/or ride in and the least expensive of the two to operate.
Best Regards,
Shipo
McDonald's far outsells Fuddrucker's for hamburgers. Walmart far outsells Saks 5th Ave. Does sales volume have anything to do with quality? I didn't think so.... We do agree that the Cressida was the best car Toyota ever built. The Lexus ES250 that was derived from the Cressida was equally fine.
Regarding comparing a twenty something year old diesel Rabbit to anything sold here in the USA today... That's just plain silly. Nuff said.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And don't leave out the fact that they can run on 100% home grown fuel. Something the current hybrid fleet is unable to do. I'd rather support a US farmer than a SA sheik.
1.One can turn waste streams that hit thegarbage dumps and land fills into bio diesel.
2. one can make diesel from natural gas.
3 one can make diesel from coal.
4. rather than list them all one can make biodiesel from many crops
5 one can make biodiesel from (promising) farm waste products.
6. etc.
Are we all to the point where we hate doing business with OUR OWN farmers????
Sounds like someone is blowing smoke somewhere. Who in AZ is selling ULSD? Or do they have BP drop off some ECD-1 on the way to CA? AZ is still under the old 300-500 PPM sulfur content law. CA mandated 140 PPM a long time ago. Now in CA 15 PPM sulfur diesel is available at any ARCO station that sells diesel. I see more smoking old gas cars than buses or diesel cars in San Diego.
I was thinking the way to tell which doctor owned the Prius was the one that his parents were wealthy and bought it for him on graduation from med school.
Blame your state legislators for not adopting ULSD sooner. Not the poor guy that is trying to squeeze every mile out of a gallon of fossil fuel.
PS
On the biodiesel issue. Read back and you will find a University study that claims we can produce enough biodiesel to replace all fossil fuel for transportation. It may be questionable as it is a Liberal Eastern University.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
The 2006 Automatic Jetta TDI isn't as fast, as quiet, as clean, or as efficient as a hybrid like Prius. And right now, diesel is about 75 cents more per gallon. On top of that, the smoke & smell diesel stigma of the past still has to be overcome.
How exactly will marketing sway consumer to choose diesel instead?
Spreading misconceptions about hybrids won't work. Using selective data won't either. Both become increasingly difficult as time progresses, since there will simply be too many to draw incorrect conclusions with. Just look at the hoopla when the HSD model of Prius first came out. Low MPG claims were proven false once break-in was complete and warm weather arrived. And Honda ended up taking a beating for selling hybrids that were only ULEV emission rated. Consumers are aware now that hybrids can come in different configurations, some favoring efficiency more than others. They also know that some possess the ability to support aftermarket electrical enhancements.
Diesels have little to draw attention with. They won't just sell themselves. What will supporters do to convince people to buy a (non-hybrid) diesel?
JOHN
Talking about eluding the question. Let me put it this way...
When you do engage, what will you say?
JOHN
A pregnant mom walking down the street with her friend and child and stroller in tow. The air is crisp and its relatively quiet outside. THEN.. at the corner a Jetta TDI (late model of course) pulls up. Mom gets a cell phone call from her husband. She tries to conduct a conversation but the noise is just too loud. Her husband says...honey where are you. Mom says...outside with junior taking a stroll. Dad says...WOW... is that the garbage man I hear?? Mom says...Hmmmm.. No... just a VW that smells like one. Dad says...quick...get away....
...To be continued :P
Moral....It will be MUCH more difficult to convince Americans diesels are clean and less noisey. Bottom line... Hybrids will hold the lion's share of the market for the next few years in this country. Let me clarify... HYBRID CARS WILL OUTSELL DIESEL CARS IN THE US. Get over it already. Each car has its attributes. All of you participants will NEVER.. and I mean NEVER convince anyone else here to think your way.
You have made one of my points perfectly. If you drive a good distance the weather is 70 degrees, you will get good mileage with a hybrid. Most of the USA does not stay 70 degrees year round and many folks only drive 2-3 miles at a time. The Prius and HCH are fine LITTLE commuter cars. They cannot make it to mainstream unless the automakers find more batteries. Why are you trying to push a car onto people that is not available on a given day at any given Toyota dealership? It does not look like Toyota will bring the promised 120k units to the US this year.
Diesels have little to draw attention with. They won't just sell themselves. What will supporters do to convince people to buy a (non-hybrid) diesel?
If that is the case why can't I get another one from the dealers in Oregon or Washington? If they are not popular why is there a waiting list for the Jetta TDI similar to the Prius? You also ignore the fact that they are not allowed because of ignorance in two of the major population centers. Plus with the overwhelming popularity in Europe we get the dregs in this country. Check out how well the Prius sells in the EU compared to diesels. If people are given the option they will go for the better vehicle. Right now on this planet the diesel cars are overall superior to the hybrids. If they are so tough to sell in the USA, why do people ask where they can get one when they see mine?
PS
BP Diesel dropped below Premium this week in CA.
Keep us posted on the MPG.
For example, since before the time I bought my Jetta TDI, I have noticed almost NO media buzz. Even VW dealers dont know all that much about TDI's???????
So the folks declaring the hybrid inevitable seem to be the ones who desperately want to believe it so. But like I said a projected 32 years to be a 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet is marketing in total overdrive!
Simple.
Because the TDI is currently (2005 using high-sulfur diesel) so dirty the EPA has to limit the amount which can be sold.
Once that allotment is used up, you have to wait on a list.
JOHN
I used the word "evade", which is exactly what your attempt to change the focus just tried... rather than acknowledging the question.
Again, what will you say?
Even if diesel can get past the long-standing misconceptions, the reality is that it isn't as fast, as quiet, as clean, or as efficient. How will it compete?
JOHN
However the ban is disengenuous in that one can still buy USA made diesel SUV's and pick up trucks.
I also find it pleasantly strange that even after 2/3 or so years with app 69,000 miles, I can sell the TDI for very close to what I paid for it. As good as that is, I would hardly call it an investment. However it is nice not to have loss the anticipated loss on the deal.
Does anyone know if Ford sold any Ranger diesels in the U.S. during the early to mid eights and what engine they used?
John K
And where is that EPA information to be found? I know that CARB and the four wannabe states have restricted the sale of diesels. All that is sold in CA are the big smoke belching type. I'll have to ask my VW dealer friend in Oregon if the EPA has limited how many diesels can be sold in the USA. My understanding is they cannot keep up with European demand. VW is still the sales leader over there you know. Honda & Toyota are building diesels now so they will be accepted in the EU market. Your arguments fall flat when you consider that the two DCX diesels are selling far better than they anticipated. Unless Toyota has something up their sleeve that is better than the Prius it will just fade into automotive history like the Edsel & Corvair.
My friend had a diesel Ranger and it was a little short on power but got good, for a pickup, fuel mileage. It is interesting that the truck you mentioned is still running. How many battery swaps would a hybrid have required in that many years and at what cost?
I am not against hybrid technology, but for my use I would much rather have a diesel. A European diesel in a BMW 330D.
Again you can thank your legislatures etc and EPA enforcement for not converting #2 diesel in the 70's when they converted Leaded regular.
The fact of the matter is the TDIs came capable of running the new 2006 low sulfur fuel.
Mercedes is holding off on bringing their new V6 CDI until the ULSD is in place. It was developed to run only on low sulfur diesel or biodiesel.
So while the 2003 TDI's (most other TDI's for that matter) can run the current #2 diesel. I'd like the new 2006 (probably implemented in 2008
I seriously doubt that. Pretty soon Toyota will be the LARGEST company in the world as GM continues to lose market share. Toyota is bringing their best selling Camry into the hybrid world by this spring. After that MORE will follow. Toyota hybrids will be here for a LONG time. VW failed miserbly with their W8 Passat and their Phaeton. Why? Their dealer networks SUCKS big time. Now that fat cat VW dealers are following in Toyota's footsteps (not all mind you). They're getting a fat juicy premium for diesel cars. And you thought people were nuts paying a premium for the Prius? What about the people shelling out thousands over MSRP for a diesel. AND... diesel is $0.65 MORE per gallon here. No thinking went into that decision.
Well, Gary, if not it will be very close:
YTD through 10-31
Prius 90981 units
Rx400H 12000 units min ( initial orders )
HyHighlander ? not broken out separately
120000 units seems certain, maybe even by the end of Nov.
Consider if you will that the Prius is not the final goal of the strategy but just the initial 2 steps.
1 Gen1 Prius
2 Gen2 Prius
3 RX400H + HH
4 HSD Camry + GS450
5 Tundra + ( ? ) Sienna / RAV / Corolla / HSD tC / LS 450
6 Volta/( Supra )
First, I think you have to be crazy to pay MSRP for ANY vehicle, period. I never have and NEVER will pay MSRP.
Second you may have not read the WSJ article on why diesel took an upturn after Rita. The 3 refineries hit in that hurricane were refining unleaded gas. The oil companies to avoid a big shortfall in gasoline converted diesel refineries to produce gasoline. That caused a price jump in diesel. As I mentioned earlier today, it has dropped to the price of premium here in CA and back close to regular unleaded in other parts of the US. It was never more than 30 cents higher here for BP ULSD. That is the benchmark fuel starting next year. BP has been selling the ULSD for less than truck stop #2 diesel for over a year now. No smell and no exhaust smoke. Wish I could say the same for all the old gassers running around.
I would swear Toyota announced around the first of the year they would be bringing 120k Prii into the US. That is 29k to go before the end of the year. I don't think the RX400h has sold near as many as expected by Lexus. One poster just bought from a dealer that had 11 on the lot with a very nice discount. I thought Lexus did not have to discount to sell cars. And we know that Honda is bleeding with their hybrids. With a little arm twisting you can get an HAH under invoice. Same with the current HCH. I do understand people anticipating the 2006 HCH.
falconone
Fads have nothing to do with sales comparison between diesel and Hybrid. Unless we should compare world wide sales of the two technologies. You cannot buy what is not offered for sale. To use your logic I could say there are more diesels in Germany than Hybrids so diesel is better.
2.3-2.9% of 230.2 M (registered) passenger fleet pg 19, http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pdf)
RE:diesels in Europe are popular for ONE reason. COST. Diesel is quite a bit cheaper than plain old gasoline.
I have not read about ULSD, but it is a GOOD thing that it doesn't have the stench the current stuff has. Regardless, if I were stuck in traffic on 405, I'd rather be behind a hybrid than a diesel. How many times have you had to put your AC on recirc because of all the foul air from trucks outside?
Don't for one minute believe I am trashing diesels. I WOULD BUY ONE. BUT...it would have to be reliable and CLEAN. We don't have that choice now. We do with hybrids. If Honda introduced one of their diesel cars in the US, I'd buy it sight unseen.
Wasn't one of the disadvantages cited by the anti diesel crowd the perception that #2 diesel fuel COSTs more???
Also you might want to check out the Chevron web site. Without getting real technical, there is not a current technological way to refine a barrel of oil in pursuit of unlead reg fuel without a (high) percentage yield of heavier carbon fuels: such as DIESEL.
In such conditions, the engine will have to run more to maintain the battery. The engine will probably pollute more because more fuel will be used. So much for SULEV in the winter time up in the colder climates.
This is not a misconception either. I am from New England originally. I have walked out into -38 F weather and have seen a good, one month old 12 volt battery barely deliver 7.5 volts. No battery of any type is immune from the effects of cold, and that includes those in the Prius or the HCH. I have a good friend in northern IL who has a new Prius. I have asked him to observe fuel economy and battery efficiency through the winter for me. When I get info from him I will post it. Cold has devastating effect on IC engines. They do not perform as well, use more fuel too. Remember, testing for emissions is done under very controlled conditions. Would be interesting to test for emissions in real northern winter conditions.