Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

11819212324100

Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Not paranoid, just paying attention to reality. Why do you think we (as a country) moved away from leaded gasoline a long time ago?

    ( Hint: has to do with a certain poison.... ) "

    Thanks for indirectly confirming what I have been saying all along. ! :)The regulators missed the boat back in the early 70's. Hybrids would probably not even be as good as diesels if leaded regular were used.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Larsb…as you probably know, Honda is working on their CCDTI (not sure about the acronym). This technology is similar to diesel BUT it is with GAS. MUCH less poison and 30% more efficiency. By 2008 they should have a model which they claim will easily get 65mpg with hybrid assist. This should put another nail in the diesel coffin. As we all know, they ONLY reason diesels are popular in Europe has to do with PRICE. That’s it!!!! My very close friend in the UK recently bought an A2 (looks very much like a Prius too). It is a diesel and she bought it because the diesel fuel is CHEAPER.

    Read any review on a diesel and the first thing they mention is NOISE. Diesel cars are very noisy at idle and there is lots of NVH. Diesels will never be successful in this country unless the price advantage is much better for diesel fuel. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. I am still a strong proponent of hybrid technology, even though it looks pretty much like my next vehicle will be the BMW 3 series.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    ruking1, I DO hope you are not intimating that we need diesel instead of unleaded fuel as the #1 passenger car fuel in the USA?

    NAH, there's no way a rational human would think that.

    Nevermind....
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Read any review on a diesel and the first thing they mention is NOISE. Diesel cars are very noisy at idle and there is lots of NVH."

    How old are those reviews you've been reading? I've ridden and driven in some very fine diesel powered vehicles over in Europe (Fiat, Opel, BMW, Mercedes to name a few) and other than the fact that they are faster between 20 and 100 than their gasser siblings (assuming a similar engine size), I defy any driver, passenger or nearby pedestrian to positively identify which car is a diesel (without looking at the logo of course).

    The "Diesels Smell" and "Diesels Smoke" and "Diesels are Noisy" rhetoric is both old news and quite inaccurate.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "NAH, there's no way a rational human would think that.

    Nevermind.... "

    Most of your posts have been less than balanced. So I can understand why you would try to demonize whom you perceive as the "enemy". You probably also see a person that can see both sides of debate that way also. :(:)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Shipo-"The "Diesels Smell" and "Diesels Smoke" and "Diesels are Noisy" rhetoric is both old news and quite inaccurate."-end quote

    Until ULSD fuel permeates the USA and all the old dirty diesel cars are replaced with modern diesel engines, the smell/smoke/noise issue is still true in the USA.

    I was behind a mid-80s Diesel Rabbit the other day and it was trailing black smoke a half a mile behind it.

    I get behind Phoenix City buses, which are supposedly using low sulfur diesel already, and I smell the exhaust.

    I could pass your "tell me which car is diesel" test, you betcha !!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Don't misunderstand me now Ruking1:

    I am completely a fan of clean diesel and modern diesel engines with advanced technology particulate filters. Becuase THOSE are the cars which can most easily approach the cleanliness of the cleanest gasoline cars.

    Problem is, that scenario is still a long way off in the USA.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    ruking1, I DO hope you are not intimating that we need diesel instead of unleaded fuel as the #1 passenger car fuel in the USA?

    NAH, there's no way a rational human would think that.


    Hmmm, I guess I'm not rational. The fact is that cars with modern diesel engines (fed with modern low sulfur diesel) are arguably the equal of similar sized hybrids from an absolute fuel economy / fuel cost perspective. That said if one was to compare two similarly sized $25,000 cars (also assuming a similar level of technical competence from the manufacturer), one Hybrid and one Diesel, it is my assertion that for my typical driving regimen, the diesel will be the more fun car to drive, the safer to operate and/or ride in and the least expensive of the two to operate.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One is VW and the other is Mercedes. Show me how their combined sales exceed 100,000 Prius units. Hmmmmm??? Waiting

    McDonald's far outsells Fuddrucker's for hamburgers. Walmart far outsells Saks 5th Ave. Does sales volume have anything to do with quality? I didn't think so.... We do agree that the Cressida was the best car Toyota ever built. The Lexus ES250 that was derived from the Cressida was equally fine.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I see that you enjoy twisting an argument. :-/ My point was to compare similar cars. Cars such as the BMW 330i and 330d or the Mercedes-Benz E320 or E320 CDI.

    Regarding comparing a twenty something year old diesel Rabbit to anything sold here in the USA today... That's just plain silly. Nuff said.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The fact is that cars with modern diesel engines (fed with modern low sulfur diesel) are arguably the equal of similar sized hybrids

    And don't leave out the fact that they can run on 100% home grown fuel. Something the current hybrid fleet is unable to do. I'd rather support a US farmer than a SA sheik.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes I agree! The yada yada goes on and on.

    1.One can turn waste streams that hit thegarbage dumps and land fills into bio diesel.

    2. one can make diesel from natural gas.

    3 one can make diesel from coal.

    4. rather than list them all one can make biodiesel from many crops

    5 one can make biodiesel from (promising) farm waste products.

    6. etc.

    Are we all to the point where we hate doing business with OUR OWN farmers????
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I get behind Phoenix City buses, which are supposedly using low sulfur diesel already, and I smell the exhaust.

    Sounds like someone is blowing smoke somewhere. Who in AZ is selling ULSD? Or do they have BP drop off some ECD-1 on the way to CA? AZ is still under the old 300-500 PPM sulfur content law. CA mandated 140 PPM a long time ago. Now in CA 15 PPM sulfur diesel is available at any ARCO station that sells diesel. I see more smoking old gas cars than buses or diesel cars in San Diego.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    On a lighter note. Went to see new grand baby at the hospital. Sitting in the doctor's parking was a Prius next to a Golf TDI. I wondered if the doctors debate hybrid vs diesel.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Are you so sure of that? Read ANY review of the Liberty CRD or the VW TDI and virtually EVERY review mentions diesel clatter and stench. I was parked not too long ago behind a diesel powered VW (late model 03 or 04) and it was loud and it stunk too! I had to endure that for 30 minutes while waiting to board a ferry. I decided to get out of the car before I choked. I will grant one thing. Once underway on the motorway, you really don't know it's a diesel other than when you try to pass someone.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    How many farmers will it take to provide fuel to 30% of all cars in this country that decided to switch to diesel? POOR POOR argument. Remember that article you posted the other day about the guy in PA who spent 10grand to enable his furnace to burn french fry oil? How many people are willing to pay that type of money. Your solution is for .000001% of the US population. That means it's not viable.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Missed the point again. I am merely saying that in just two years of its introduction, the Toyota Prius outsells ALL diesel car sales in the US. IMHO diesels are currently duds in their current state.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The doctors have more important things to do. Maybe during surgery they discuss it. There is one way you can tell which doctor drives the Prius. Do the sniff test. If you smell diesel... well.. you know the rest. :P :P :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is one way you can tell which doctor drives the Prius.

    I was thinking the way to tell which doctor owned the Prius was the one that his parents were wealthy and bought it for him on graduation from med school.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was parked not too long ago behind a diesel powered VW (late model 03 or 04) and it was loud and it stunk too!

    Blame your state legislators for not adopting ULSD sooner. Not the poor guy that is trying to squeeze every mile out of a gallon of fossil fuel.

    PS
    On the biodiesel issue. Read back and you will find a University study that claims we can produce enough biodiesel to replace all fossil fuel for transportation. It may be questionable as it is a Liberal Eastern University.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Enough biodiesel to replace all petroleum transportation fuels could be grown in 15,000 square miles, or roughly 12.5 percent of the area of the Sonora desert (note for clarification - I am not advocating putting 15,000 square miles of algae ponds in the Sonora desert. This hypothetical example is used strictly for the purpose of showing the scale of land required). That 15,000 square miles works out to roughly 9.5 million acres - far less than the 450 million acres currently used for crop farming in the US, and the over 500 million acres used as grazing land for farm animals.

    http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Have you noticed how the (non-hybrid) diesel supporters always elude that question?

    The 2006 Automatic Jetta TDI isn't as fast, as quiet, as clean, or as efficient as a hybrid like Prius. And right now, diesel is about 75 cents more per gallon. On top of that, the smoke & smell diesel stigma of the past still has to be overcome.

    How exactly will marketing sway consumer to choose diesel instead?

    Spreading misconceptions about hybrids won't work. Using selective data won't either. Both become increasingly difficult as time progresses, since there will simply be too many to draw incorrect conclusions with. Just look at the hoopla when the HSD model of Prius first came out. Low MPG claims were proven false once break-in was complete and warm weather arrived. And Honda ended up taking a beating for selling hybrids that were only ULEV emission rated. Consumers are aware now that hybrids can come in different configurations, some favoring efficiency more than others. They also know that some possess the ability to support aftermarket electrical enhancements.

    Diesels have little to draw attention with. They won't just sell themselves. What will supporters do to convince people to buy a (non-hybrid) diesel?

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    As a diesel user, I really don't do anything to convince folks to buy a diesel. This isn't like a multi level marketing scheme nor a cult type of thing. :(:) On a personal basis, just as long as it is not regulated away or against or banned, I really could care less. So if folks ask, I will engage. If they don't I am ok with that also.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > So if folks ask, I will engage.

    Talking about eluding the question. Let me put it this way...

    When you do engage, what will you say?

    JOHN
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Actually this is a great question for some Madison Avenue executives. The public (most) still think hybrids have to be plugged in. Picture their new ad campaign for clean diesels.

    A pregnant mom walking down the street with her friend and child and stroller in tow. The air is crisp and its relatively quiet outside. THEN.. at the corner a Jetta TDI (late model of course) pulls up. Mom gets a cell phone call from her husband. She tries to conduct a conversation but the noise is just too loud. Her husband says...honey where are you. Mom says...outside with junior taking a stroll. Dad says...WOW... is that the garbage man I hear?? Mom says...Hmmmm.. No... just a VW that smells like one. Dad says...quick...get away....

    ...To be continued :P

    Moral....It will be MUCH more difficult to convince Americans diesels are clean and less noisey. Bottom line... Hybrids will hold the lion's share of the market for the next few years in this country. Let me clarify... HYBRID CARS WILL OUTSELL DIESEL CARS IN THE US. Get over it already. Each car has its attributes. All of you participants will NEVER.. and I mean NEVER convince anyone else here to think your way.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am really not sure what you find "elusive".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Low MPG claims were proven false once break-in was complete and warm weather arrived.

    You have made one of my points perfectly. If you drive a good distance the weather is 70 degrees, you will get good mileage with a hybrid. Most of the USA does not stay 70 degrees year round and many folks only drive 2-3 miles at a time. The Prius and HCH are fine LITTLE commuter cars. They cannot make it to mainstream unless the automakers find more batteries. Why are you trying to push a car onto people that is not available on a given day at any given Toyota dealership? It does not look like Toyota will bring the promised 120k units to the US this year.

    Diesels have little to draw attention with. They won't just sell themselves. What will supporters do to convince people to buy a (non-hybrid) diesel?

    If that is the case why can't I get another one from the dealers in Oregon or Washington? If they are not popular why is there a waiting list for the Jetta TDI similar to the Prius? You also ignore the fact that they are not allowed because of ignorance in two of the major population centers. Plus with the overwhelming popularity in Europe we get the dregs in this country. Check out how well the Prius sells in the EU compared to diesels. If people are given the option they will go for the better vehicle. Right now on this planet the diesel cars are overall superior to the hybrids. If they are so tough to sell in the USA, why do people ask where they can get one when they see mine?

    PS
    BP Diesel dropped below Premium this week in CA.
  • shaolingolfershaolingolfer Member Posts: 28
    I love my new 2006 TDI. Great car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If diesel is an inferior fuel as some would have us believe. How would tying the diesel engine to a hybrid make it better? You just add complexity and potential problems. One of the few things I liked about the previous administration was the saying KISS. It applies perfectly to cars.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    congratulations! Remember to use the best diesel you can find. They run so much better. If you are in a real cold climate you may want to use additives.

    Keep us posted on the MPG.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is FAR and AWAY more media attention on hybrids than on TDI's. I also will note that it is the hybrids advocates are the ones who have wage the most multi media buzz. So where they get the idea that it is the diesel advocate folks doing all the multi media buzzing is really beyond me.

    For example, since before the time I bought my Jetta TDI, I have noticed almost NO media buzz. Even VW dealers dont know all that much about TDI's??????? :(:)

    So the folks declaring the hybrid inevitable seem to be the ones who desperately want to believe it so. But like I said a projected 32 years to be a 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet is marketing in total overdrive! :)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > why is there a waiting list for the Jetta TDI similar to the Prius?

    Simple.

    Because the TDI is currently (2005 using high-sulfur diesel) so dirty the EPA has to limit the amount which can be sold.

    Once that allotment is used up, you have to wait on a list.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I am really not sure what you find "elusive".

    I used the word "evade", which is exactly what your attempt to change the focus just tried... rather than acknowledging the question.

    Again, what will you say?

    Even if diesel can get past the long-standing misconceptions, the reality is that it isn't as fast, as quiet, as clean, or as efficient. How will it compete?

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Why would you think it would have any problems? The regulatory agencies have virtually gurantee its success by banning new car sales of it starting in 2004. ! ?

    However the ban is disengenuous in that one can still buy USA made diesel SUV's and pick up trucks. :(:). All it really needs is for the price of fuel to keep going up as the environmentalist want (among other interested parties) As small as the diesel population is 2.3%-2.9% and quite literally almost banned, the hybrid population is FAR smaller than the diesel population with tons more media bruhaha.

    I also find it pleasantly strange that even after 2/3 or so years with app 69,000 miles, I can sell the TDI for very close to what I paid for it. As good as that is, I would hardly call it an investment. However it is nice not to have loss the anticipated loss on the deal.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Not too long ago I was getting in my car at a local shopping center and a older Ford Ranger pick-up park next to me started up with unmistakable sound of a diesel engine. :surprise: I stopped the driver from leaving and asked him where he came across this pick-up. He said he thought it was a 1985, gets about 34 MPG and had bought it from a man on Fox Island, WA. That’s where I live. :cry: The truck itself was in tough shape, bad paint, dirty in and out, but the engine ran sweet. I do not recall if it was a stick or auto. It did have a “Ranger Diesel” emblem on the front fender just ahead of the door.
    Does anyone know if Ford sold any Ranger diesels in the U.S. during the early to mid eights and what engine they used?

    John K
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Because the TDI is currently (2005 using high-sulfur diesel) so dirty the EPA has to limit the amount which can be sold.

    And where is that EPA information to be found? I know that CARB and the four wannabe states have restricted the sale of diesels. All that is sold in CA are the big smoke belching type. I'll have to ask my VW dealer friend in Oregon if the EPA has limited how many diesels can be sold in the USA. My understanding is they cannot keep up with European demand. VW is still the sales leader over there you know. Honda & Toyota are building diesels now so they will be accepted in the EU market. Your arguments fall flat when you consider that the two DCX diesels are selling far better than they anticipated. Unless Toyota has something up their sleeve that is better than the Prius it will just fade into automotive history like the Edsel & Corvair.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Yes Ford sold diesel Rangers and also Escorts in the US in the mid 80's. Not many were sold. GM almost destroyed the future of smaller diesels in this country. :mad: I don't remember which years the Fords were sold unfortunately.

    My friend had a diesel Ranger and it was a little short on power but got good, for a pickup, fuel mileage. It is interesting that the truck you mentioned is still running. How many battery swaps would a hybrid have required in that many years and at what cost?

    I am not against hybrid technology, but for my use I would much rather have a diesel. A European diesel in a BMW 330D. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Because the TDI is currently (2005 using high-sulfur diesel) so dirty the EPA has to limit the amount which can be sold. "

    Again you can thank your legislatures etc and EPA enforcement for not converting #2 diesel in the 70's when they converted Leaded regular.

    The fact of the matter is the TDIs came capable of running the new 2006 low sulfur fuel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The fact of the mater is the TDIs came capable of running the new 2006 low sulfur fuel.

    Mercedes is holding off on bringing their new V6 CDI until the ULSD is in place. It was developed to run only on low sulfur diesel or biodiesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The situation is really analogous to gasser/hybrid Prius' having to run leaded gas, even though it was made to run unleaded gas.

    So while the 2003 TDI's (most other TDI's for that matter) can run the current #2 diesel. I'd like the new 2006 (probably implemented in 2008 :(:)) to be the most commonly available fuel and at similar #2 diesel prices! :)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Unless Toyota has something up their sleeve that is better than the Prius it will just fade into automotive history like the Edsel & Corvair.

    I seriously doubt that. Pretty soon Toyota will be the LARGEST company in the world as GM continues to lose market share. Toyota is bringing their best selling Camry into the hybrid world by this spring. After that MORE will follow. Toyota hybrids will be here for a LONG time. VW failed miserbly with their W8 Passat and their Phaeton. Why? Their dealer networks SUCKS big time. Now that fat cat VW dealers are following in Toyota's footsteps (not all mind you). They're getting a fat juicy premium for diesel cars. And you thought people were nuts paying a premium for the Prius? What about the people shelling out thousands over MSRP for a diesel. AND... diesel is $0.65 MORE per gallon here. No thinking went into that decision.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It does not look like Toyota will bring the promised 120k units to the US this year.

    Well, Gary, if not it will be very close:

    YTD through 10-31
    Prius 90981 units
    Rx400H 12000 units min ( initial orders )
    HyHighlander ? not broken out separately

    120000 units seems certain, maybe even by the end of Nov.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Unless Toyota has something up their sleeve that is better than the Prius it will just fade into automotive history like the Edsel & Corvair

    Consider if you will that the Prius is not the final goal of the strategy but just the initial 2 steps.

    1 Gen1 Prius
    2 Gen2 Prius
    3 RX400H + HH
    4 HSD Camry + GS450
    5 Tundra + ( ? ) Sienna / RAV / Corolla / HSD tC / LS 450
    6 Volta/( Supra )
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Amazing!! Now... if someone can gather data on how many diesel cars were sold in the same period. I'd like to see a comparison. Hybrids a fad? HAHAHAHAHAHA
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What about the people shelling out thousands over MSRP for a diesel. AND... diesel is $0.65 MORE per gallon here.

    First, I think you have to be crazy to pay MSRP for ANY vehicle, period. I never have and NEVER will pay MSRP.

    Second you may have not read the WSJ article on why diesel took an upturn after Rita. The 3 refineries hit in that hurricane were refining unleaded gas. The oil companies to avoid a big shortfall in gasoline converted diesel refineries to produce gasoline. That caused a price jump in diesel. As I mentioned earlier today, it has dropped to the price of premium here in CA and back close to regular unleaded in other parts of the US. It was never more than 30 cents higher here for BP ULSD. That is the benchmark fuel starting next year. BP has been selling the ULSD for less than truck stop #2 diesel for over a year now. No smell and no exhaust smoke. Wish I could say the same for all the old gassers running around.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well, Gary, if not it will be very close:

    I would swear Toyota announced around the first of the year they would be bringing 120k Prii into the US. That is 29k to go before the end of the year. I don't think the RX400h has sold near as many as expected by Lexus. One poster just bought from a dealer that had 11 on the lot with a very nice discount. I thought Lexus did not have to discount to sell cars. And we know that Honda is bleeding with their hybrids. With a little arm twisting you can get an HAH under invoice. Same with the current HCH. I do understand people anticipating the 2006 HCH.

    falconone
    Fads have nothing to do with sales comparison between diesel and Hybrid. Unless we should compare world wide sales of the two technologies. You cannot buy what is not offered for sale. To use your logic I could say there are more diesels in Germany than Hybrids so diesel is better.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually there is an interesting (probably unintended) spin off from having a small population of diesels. They are all not likely to be looking for diesel fuel at the precise time that you are. Combine that with a comparatively much longer range (Jetta 14.5gal 32 mpg gasser= 464 miles vs 49 mpg TDI= 711 miles) and basically I seldom have to wait at a station to fuel.

    2.3-2.9% of 230.2 M (registered) passenger fleet pg 19, http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pdf)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Not sure where you read 120k. I read 100k and I'll try to find a link.

    RE:diesels in Europe are popular for ONE reason. COST. Diesel is quite a bit cheaper than plain old gasoline.

    I have not read about ULSD, but it is a GOOD thing that it doesn't have the stench the current stuff has. Regardless, if I were stuck in traffic on 405, I'd rather be behind a hybrid than a diesel. How many times have you had to put your AC on recirc because of all the foul air from trucks outside?

    Don't for one minute believe I am trashing diesels. I WOULD BUY ONE. BUT...it would have to be reliable and CLEAN. We don't have that choice now. We do with hybrids. If Honda introduced one of their diesel cars in the US, I'd buy it sight unseen.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "RE:diesels in Europe are popular for ONE reason. COST. Diesel is quite a bit cheaper than plain old gasoline. "

    Wasn't one of the disadvantages cited by the anti diesel crowd the perception that #2 diesel fuel COSTs more???

    Also you might want to check out the Chevron web site. Without getting real technical, there is not a current technological way to refine a barrel of oil in pursuit of unlead reg fuel without a (high) percentage yield of heavier carbon fuels: such as DIESEL.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    It is interesting to find that the Prius does best in warm weather. But not everyone lives in warm climates such as CA or FL. Many people live in New England, the upper mid-west, etc. It gets pretty damn cold up there. I wonder how great fuel economy or battery life will be in cold to really cold weather? I am sure that the degradation in battery performance in cold weather will be a big problem, never mind fuel economy.

    In such conditions, the engine will have to run more to maintain the battery. The engine will probably pollute more because more fuel will be used. So much for SULEV in the winter time up in the colder climates.

    This is not a misconception either. I am from New England originally. I have walked out into -38 F weather and have seen a good, one month old 12 volt battery barely deliver 7.5 volts. No battery of any type is immune from the effects of cold, and that includes those in the Prius or the HCH. I have a good friend in northern IL who has a new Prius. I have asked him to observe fuel economy and battery efficiency through the winter for me. When I get info from him I will post it. Cold has devastating effect on IC engines. They do not perform as well, use more fuel too. Remember, testing for emissions is done under very controlled conditions. Would be interesting to test for emissions in real northern winter conditions.
This discussion has been closed.

Your Privacy

By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.